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The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

bluediamond's picture
bluediamond started the topic in
Wax Off
 Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

harrycoopr's picture
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harrycoopr Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 4:27pm
burleigh wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
burleigh wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:

@ #boycottindo "Well if Aboriginal people were left to be and live like they had for thousands of years they still would be dying at 40."
My god... this guy's stupidity just keeps on truckin'

We saw plenty of disgusting tactics from the Yes campaign. Spitting middle aged women, gimps wearing dog masks in public, Briggs labelling everyone racists that didnt agree with his sellout views. Ray martin, the rainbow brigade asking for their own voice, The harrys abusing anyone that didn't agree. The list goes on.

Is that all you can think of fishfood? You're on #boycottindo's truck of stupidity, ain't ya dumbo.
Anthropology 101 will teach u thickheads that comparatively blackfellas were living a MUCH healthier AND longer life at the precolonial time than Europeans. They worked less for their food, had more time for their cultural/spiritual pursuits and I imagine were much happier than their peasant counterparts (soon to be invaders/dispossessors). Yes it would've been tough living in the bush but that's why they're so resilient... not like the privileged whiny softcocks that are today's berleys, indos, gscos etc

What the fuck are you on about Winnie? When did i ever suggest or even hint at this?

Get off the beers champ, you're making a fool of yourself....... AGAIN

Im referring back to yr gimp indo's post you dikwad. Can't even understand that huh, whew!!

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sypkan Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 4:28pm

a little much needed humour...

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sypkan's picture
sypkan Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 4:30pm

and, its complicated...

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 4:36pm
Supafreak wrote:

1. Heavily indigenous booths in Qld have voted yes as follows: Palm Island 75%, Thursday Island 74%, Lockhart River 66%, Pormpuraaw 56%.
2. .In the NT, booths managed by the remote mobile teams consisting of a higher proportion of Indigenous Australians returned a Yes of 71.9%..The rest of the NT was 32.6%.
3. More analysis need, but it's clear Indigenous support is overwhelmingly Yes. Don't believe the lies.
4. Preliminary analysis In Bob Katter's seat of Kennedy, shows polling booths with a catchment of more than 50% Indigenous Australians returned a Yes of 69.5%. The rest of Kennedy returned a Yes of 18.5%.
5. It seems that the ~80% figure of Indigenous support was right

All the voting data is availablhttps://x.com/tracywesterman/status/1713407180874138095?s=46&t=5RczxwAfz.... https://tallyroom.aec.gov.au/ReferendumNationalResults-29581.htm. Price became the Trojan Horse many white Australians could latch onto to justify their No position yet she was also strongly rejected in these remote communities in her 2019 Fed election defeat. Just another layer of the foul duplicity of the No con job https://x.com/oldschooltiesir/status/1713421980660383903?s=46&t=5RczxwAf...

It doesn't work like that, thats like taking the results of some inner city seats and saying look white people voted at 70% in favour of the voice.

It does make sense that the majority of any ethnic group would vote for special rights if offered though.

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gsco Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 4:41pm
basesix wrote:

I'll leave the afore-asked question with you, @gsco, it is all a bit beyond me, the world is a rather confusing place, and the bits that are complex in a way that I have no understanding of, are best left to those that do. Re the Quadrant and AFR quotes: why is that great commentary? Seems kinda interesting, but then theories always are, though invariably say more about the theorists than the world. Probably a small part of the truth lies in most things. Do the quotes fit your theories?

What is science? Debate? Democracy? Is democracy similar to science? Do you believe in progress? Improvement? Have you read Hegel? Popper? Kuhn? Is your ego attached to what you currently believe? Are you honest, at least to yourself? Well intentioned? Do you want the best for humanity? Do you seek knowledge and truth? If so, how? Do you lead with your heart?

harrycoopr's picture
harrycoopr's picture
harrycoopr Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 4:42pm
gsco wrote:
basesix wrote:

I'll leave the afore-asked question with you, @gsco, it is all a bit beyond me, the world is a rather confusing place, and the bits that are complex in a way that I have no understanding of, are best left to those that do. Re the Quadrant and AFR quotes: why is that great commentary? Seems kinda interesting, but then theories always are, though invariably say more about the theorists than the world. Probably a small part of the truth lies in most things. Do the quotes fit your theories?

What is science? Debate? Democracy? Is democracy similar to science? Do you believe in progress? Improvement? Have you read Hegel? Popper? Kuhn? Is your ego attached to what you currently believe? Are you honest, at least to yourself? Well intentioned? Do you seek knowledge and truth? If so, how? Do you lead with your heart?

Do you keep projecting some dumbtard woke conspiracy and anti-intellectualism to stay paranoid and fearful?

harrycoopr's picture
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harrycoopr Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 4:46pm
burleigh wrote:
Supafreak wrote:

1. Heavily indigenous booths in Qld have voted yes as follows: Palm Island 75%, Thursday Island 74%, Lockhart River 66%, Pormpuraaw 56%.
2. .In the NT, booths managed by the remote mobile teams consisting of a higher proportion of Indigenous Australians returned a Yes of 71.9%..The rest of the NT was 32.6%.
3. More analysis need, but it's clear Indigenous support is overwhelmingly Yes. Don't believe the lies.
4. Preliminary analysis In Bob Katter's seat of Kennedy, shows polling booths with a catchment of more than 50% Indigenous Australians returned a Yes of 69.5%. The rest of Kennedy returned a Yes of 18.5%.
5. It seems that the ~80% figure of Indigenous support was right

All the voting data is availablhttps://x.com/tracywesterman/status/1713407180874138095?s=46&t=5RczxwAfz.... https://tallyroom.aec.gov.au/ReferendumNationalResults-29581.htm

Dont believe the lies...... yet the 80% poll that Yes23 used was clearly a lie.

You could smash fishfood over the head with facts and he'd still sit there dumbly staring into some nobrain middle distance grey zone... he can't handle the truth, hence his pissweak retorts.

harrycoopr's picture
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harrycoopr Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 5:00pm

Ok as much as I enjoy a bit of rhetorical biffo and at times half decent debate, I think I've had enough... trying to educate ppl like the rightywhiteys on here is sooo pointless. It's the age old problem of ideological differences... However, one would think that even dumbarses like fishfood, #boycottindo, cosco, frogface etc may be capable of some critical thinking ...but alas no. They hyperventilate and get all hysterical about "wokeness" and marxism and other fascist nonsense. Fellas, it ain't the 1950s anymore. Move on.
Anyway it's been nice seeing there are some honest and critically minded people out there and quite a few surprisingly enough(u know who u are). All i can say for the others is PLEASE educate yourselves... it's never too late. And i dont mean on the internet Alex Jones channels etc... there are some really good books and studies out there... even my papers fishfuk!!
Adios comrades.. till Treaty time!!!

burleigh's picture
burleigh's picture
burleigh Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 5:05pm
harrycoopr wrote:

Ok as much as I enjoy a bit of rhetorical biffo and at times half decent debate, I think I've had enough... trying to educate ppl like the rightywhiteys on here is sooo pointless. It's the age old problem of ideological differences... However, one would think that even dumbarses like fishfood, #boycottindo, cosco, frogface etc may be capable of some critical thinking ...but alas no. They hyperventilate and get all hysterical about "wokeness" and marxism and other fascist nonsense. Fellas, it ain't the 1950s anymore. Move on.
Anyway it's been nice seeing there are some honest and critically minded people out there and quite a few surprisingly enough(u know who u are). All i can say for the others is PLEASE educate yourselves... it's never too late. And i dont mean on the internet Alex Jones channels etc... there are some really good books and studies out there... even my papers fishfuk!!
Adios comrades.. till Treaty time!!!

"please educate yourself" is the single most funny thing i've heard in this shit debate. Thank fuck you've had enough. You've done enough damage for the team you're apparently on.

Supafreak's picture
Supafreak's picture
Supafreak Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 5:07pm

Bye harry , thanks for the laughs.

truebluebasher's picture
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truebluebasher Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 5:20pm

Green Ant Bully always gets stuck with the Washing Up...

Lessons no one bothered to learn.

It's what ya don't see...always was always will be ....(read next clause)

Dutto voted to have Reffo + wants another Reffo
Dutto 'mandated' How his Party must Vote + openly 'manipulated' those not exercising their votes.
On paper...Not one other Aussie ever committed so fully & deeply to this & more Reffo/s.

Any of his grandiose claims to other are are preposterous as he alone was ever milking it!

Rest of Oz simply knew they wouldn't know how to vote in a reffo they never knew about!

Whole of Oz blame #1 + #2 Reffo/s Flip Flop coordinator/s Dutto for his rabid plan of attack.

Pause

tbb has never voted + has a few disabilities so lives in isolation & seldom leaves the house!
Meaning tbb can spot a fellow isolated sufferer in an instant...second nature.
Sure! Can feel for lost souls & kindred spirits...

Can vouch 100% that Dutto never once come out of his Star Chamber War Cabinet
Dutto is a General a War Monger > cold & clinical like a robot...
Never ever left a trace for ASIO...not a fingerprint nor a 'hair' at any crime scene...well durr!
Dutto was ever in his bunker & never once campaigned one inch on the Hustings.

There is Zero evidence of Dutto ever wearing [NO] Jocks / Sox / Badge / Stickers on his forehead.
Exactly!...No Guilt by association + Not a strand of DNA evidence to convict for Hague Hate Crimes

Dutto Never once visited a Poll Booth to thank staff .
So far as banning media > Filming him doing the dirty > Slippin' in the Vote!
Dutto is a control freak...if any see any trace of him Campaigning...dutto ordered it & owns the rights.
All recall he sues + buys back copyrights of unflattering images...takes his privacy to ultimate degree!

Here's wot actually happened...
Southern Mission Governor Dutto hired 2 (UN Peacekeepers) 'Black Lackeys' for Frontline battles.
[YES] camp can throw a mountain of Mud Pies but (UN charter) Decries not 1 Mud Pie must Stick.

Bit like Lidia...'How can I bash Nazis & Albo with my little Girly Club!' (Media : Again : Poor Lidia!)

Media : Black peoples Voices must sing loudest in Black Voice Reffo...give them centre Stage.
Tune into Green Ant to see Nazi Lion tamer whispering to the Black Panther...Yikes!'
[NO] badged Jacinta overlords $3m Wespac [Yes] Lectern of $2m Sponsor = $5m Peak freebie (Cough!)

[NO] Camp tears up & burns 100's of Oz / Aboriginal Flags...to divide our nation more each day.
Campaign once at an AEC booth with 2 desecrated Flags would instantly fuel a War...correct!
Desecrate 100's > 1,000's online > 100% approved divisive Ai tactic to incite & fuel dueling racism!
Dutto was on watch when Oz lost their shit as China did likewise ...same Online Ai Shock War tactics.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=225037227188934&set=pb.100090479...

However Dutto has one overriding Rule that his black shit kickers must never breach..
Never ever dump yer devise Flaming turds in Brown paper bags @ Voldemort's Trap door!
Code: Never be seen with the Leader or touch leader with yer divisive flaming turds.
Hague Convention Verdict ...Voldemort was never associated in any hateful [NO] labelled Hate Crimes

Just takes 1 [YES] accusing Voldemort of such and the overlord will spit roast them as they apologize.
Yes! We will all be mandated to watch & learn not to fuck with Neocon Fuhrers!

Pause

Media will never notice wotz not before their eyes so never bother to ask or question!
Cue : ABC : So that crazy bitch Sharri was right...(No! Whole world sees except for MSM) ffs!

tbb assures Oz that Dutto never once looked at or touched his saintly shit stirrers while on heat.
If so, then bring forth any [NO] evidence to the contrary!

The further & briefer the affair from his bunker = loss of control > ramps higher risk of [NO] exposure!
tbb will save ya the time checking...
The only evidence is this one lone day Newscorp licensed Voldemort's Harem applerazzi (c) Doco!
Seen here & here as lower rank Corporal Cash deploys the tweed jacket to shield the [NO] grenade!
https://images.thewest.com.au/publication/C-12089032/aef19d4b51ee270005b...
https://content.api.news/v3/images/bin/bb114102a3a1a809f337208313c4d9d2

Dutto's paranoia knows no bounds...
Counting down to [D] day (Don't Know vote No day)
Dutto still thought he would be defeated...
He divided off his Division in a sea of dark blue bunting...
ABC News reporter was astounded by the wall 2 wall wallpaper job...being the only Dark Blue Division
Note the bunting is endless...around the corner thru yer loo & out yer back door.
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/in-peter-dutton-country-no-holds...
WR official longest AEC dunny roll ever...glad wraps the whole town in one go...back to the Cricket!
Luv Dutto's Le chic abbott'oir crucified hanging live flesh from meat hook fenced off Closed shop skills!

But was never seen holding fort or flying with voters.
Not once...never left his bunker.
Again...Neocon ABC chick was invited into the compound to lap up Beetroot Soup with Mash.

tbb did more notice repeated contrived remote media messaging ..."You can not be what you can't see!"
Desperate popcorn plea for remote Aboriginal Dreamtime kids whose dream turned sour...
Given that [NO] were hostaging Ai Aussie flags ...Vote [NO] or we desecrate another Aussie Flag!
This proved that media were polls apart from the real Voice Worstnightmaretime (c) on yer Telly.

Devil in the Deep Blue Sea drove the Media Polls further from the truth.
Never did any see what wasn't playing out before their naked eyes...
The big fat lazy liar hiding in his lair.
Only after the blood'n'guts horror train wreck...the blood thirsty crowd want more...amore!

Only now at curtain call does King Potato Head cut the strings on his Champagne Supadiva (c)
The puppeteer stands in the background with a clean pair of Jackboots with no drops of blood'n'guts!
Angry mob rise up & notice no one ever flicked shit at Voldemort...
Lone Voice : Hey! Voldemort deployed M/F black slave lackys to do his bidding.
#1 Oz racist being the only redeeming essential [L] quality! One of Us...It's Ok...he's cool!
But for how long...can Dutto kick as hard as Jacinta...when Angry Mob demand ...

Only now do the media smell a rat!

Tip! Pauline first Drafted '99/'23 NO campaigns...It was Jacinta said [no] & tore it up not Dutto!
As said...No evidence of Voldemort shadowing or orchestrating [ Don't Know Vote No ]
tbb exampled that DKVN (c) slogan is [Clause 1] in every [NO] case booklet...go ahead & check...
Voldemort wishes for all to blame him as it's a free power trip...keeps him relevant when his not!

All hail the new Evil Queen to lop & skewer Potato head on a stake then roast him alive!
Nothing to see here ...just round 2 of [L] bloodlust frenzy Zombie Apocalypse...move along!
Was Beast that Killed the Beast ...Long live the Beast...Sorry! No happy ending!

PS : Magic of Television
You'd like to think the fashion police don't hassle Albo...
Ok! So he was busted for Treaty Shirt at Oils gig...Why! Coz Pauline saw it...
Pauline likewise busted a Treaty Sticker on a Teal...
That relates from a 2022 Albo Policy that links back to the other 1999 [no] Author! Shh!

Again! Like Duelling Wizards Dutto (vs) Albo...also deploys an Invisibility Cloak!
Right before our Eyes day in day out > most see Albo Supporting Yes 23...but do they?
Magic of Television...
Every day 'we think we see' Albo in yet another Yuppie Yes 23 T shirt
Only tbb can share that never happened...can't find any evidence of such!
True that Albo wore out many Yes T shirts but never [YES 23] Not that tbb can see!
Sure it's possible he may have been slipped a sly envelope for an appleyes23doc! (c)

Albo + Indys all hide similar Voice fashion secrets ...another Story...in time!
Green Ant : Results duplicate [Yeah/Na] Republic Reffo...all go back to bed
Green Ant Bully : Hustings reveal wide array of divisive camps aligned to 2022 election.
Also revealed chinks within Indy chain gang.

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 5:23pm
harrycoopr wrote:

Ok as much as I enjoy a bit of rhetorical biffo and at times half decent debate, I think I've had enough... trying to educate ppl like the rightywhiteys on here is sooo pointless. It's the age old problem of ideological differences... However, one would think that even dumbarses like fishfood, #boycottindo, cosco, frogface etc may be capable of some critical thinking ...but alas no. They hyperventilate and get all hysterical about "wokeness" and marxism and other fascist nonsense. Fellas, it ain't the 1950s anymore. Move on.
Anyway it's been nice seeing there are some honest and critically minded people out there and quite a few surprisingly enough(u know who u are). All i can say for the others is PLEASE educate yourselves... it's never too late. And i dont mean on the internet Alex Jones channels etc... there are some really good books and studies out there... even my papers fishfuk!!
Adios comrades.. till Treaty time!!!

Thanks for all the insults, it worked a treat in convincing people to Vote Yes no matter who the insults came from the elites like Marcia & Noel or from the average Tom, Dick & argh Harry's

frog's picture
frog's picture
frog Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 5:50pm

Yep, Harry, wins the best influencer on SN for the No campaign award - well ahead of Indo. How many silent readers he convinced to lean "no" we will never know.

HC's hand outstretched, for us to grasp in friendship with a greeting such as nutjob, dumbarse, racist and whitey, was very reassuring.

A Salty Dog's picture
A Salty Dog's picture
A Salty Dog Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 6:04pm

I’m disappointed the Yes Vote didn’t get up. Yes or No, the result was never going affect me but it was an opportunity for white Australia to give FNP a say and ultimately a greater degree of control over their future. That opportunity may well be the last one.

Also, tbb’s summary of the international reports doesn’t paint us in a favourable light, and I suspect this result has only devalued our international reputation and may come back to haunt us in the future.

Last night on one news report, a young man was asked how he voted. His reply stunned me: “I didn’t know anything about it so I voted No” he said.

Looks like Dutton & Co cornered the Donkey Vote.

And Mundine announces the “hard work begins tomorrow”. Really? I would ask where the hell have you been for the last twenty years.

And some are still trying to make it personal/political by demanding Albanese resign. Of course, it was never political for the NO advocates.

The “Trumpian Politics” of the USA is alive and growing in Australia.

I also feel there is still some baggage from Rudd’s Apology. When discussing the referendum some still maintain they have nothing to say sorry for: not my fault, it wasn’t me etc. I wasn’t my fault either and hope my ancestors who arrived in Victoria in 1850 didn’t engage in any acts of violence against FNP.

But is it really that difficult to say sorry.

An uncle of mine was taken as a Japanese POW at the fall of Singapore and spent time in Changi, pre and post his stint on the Burma Railroad, which he fortunately survived. We visited the Changi Memorial in Singapore a few years ago: all the atrocities against POW’s and civilians laid out clearly for all to see. The period between 1937 and August 1945 is largely blank in Japanese history as I understand, so what surprised me was the number of Japanese people visiting the memorial. They had gone to investigate what they had heard happened there and see for themselves. They were not smiling and laughing about it.

The memorial had a notice board where visitors posted short notes in memory of family members, friends etc who died there.

But one lengthy notice stood out.

Written by a Japanese man, he stated that his people were never told of the events which transpired there, and he was deeply saddened by the brutality displayed by his countrymen. In closing his note, he deeply apologised for the actions of his people.

He was not part of it, nor was he responsible for any of it, but he still had the grace, dignity and humility to say “sorry”.

Many in Australia could learn much from him.

Reform's picture
Reform's picture
Reform Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 6:29pm

Hey Frog and Harry,
My post earlier was idealistic fantasy and quite poor reporting really. I wanted to say that my research was limited but that I was drawing info from my lived experience. I grew up on these same places where aboriginals once lived. Within the bountiful and beautiful isthmus on the east coast of Oz. My own family home suburban block actually had a midden in our back yard. I considered that the ocean was once there where the shells were buried and scattered around.
My image and ideal of ‘Utopia’ is one of my own recollection and not one of a researched anthropological study. Just to clarify, thanks

velocityjohnno's picture
velocityjohnno's picture
velocityjohnno Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 6:30pm

Just a response to Harry's point on physical appearance, if you haven't read this book, do so. If you have yet to have children, read AND UNDERSTAND this book 2 years prior to having them and make sure your partner does too.

You will note that ALL ethnic groups when fed on their traditional diet have superb physique, and the photos irrevocably prove it. Bless Dr Price.

https://www.soilandhealth.org/wp-content/uploads/GoodBooks/Nutrition%20a...

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andy-mac Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 6:31pm
A Salty Dog wrote:

I’m disappointed the Yes Vote didn’t get up. Yes or No, the result was never going affect me but it was an opportunity for white Australia to give FNP a say and ultimately a greater degree of control over their future. That opportunity may well be the last one.

Also, tbb’s summary of the international reports doesn’t paint us in a favourable light, and I suspect this result has only devalued our international reputation and may come back to haunt us in the future.

Last night on one news report, a young man was asked how he voted. His reply stunned me: “I didn’t know anything about it so I voted No” he said.

Looks like Dutton & Co cornered the Donkey Vote.

And Mundine announces the “hard work begins tomorrow”. Really? I would ask where the hell have you been for the last twenty years.

And some are still trying to make it personal/political by demanding Albanese resign. Of course, it was never political for the NO advocates.

The “Trumpian Politics” of the USA is alive and growing in Australia.

I also feel there is still some baggage from Rudd’s Apology. When discussing the referendum some still maintain they have nothing to say sorry for: not my fault, it wasn’t me etc. I wasn’t my fault either and hope my ancestors who arrived in Victoria in 1850 didn’t engage in any acts of violence against FNP.

But is it really that difficult to say sorry.

An uncle of mine was taken as a Japanese POW at the fall of Singapore and spent time in Changi, pre and post his stint on the Burma Railroad, which he fortunately survived. We visited the Changi Memorial in Singapore a few years ago: all the atrocities against POW’s and civilians laid out clearly for all to see. The period between 1937 and August 1945 is largely blank in Japanese history as I understand, so what surprised me was the number of Japanese people visiting the memorial. They had gone to investigate what they had heard happened there and see for themselves. They were not smiling and laughing about it.

The memorial had a notice board where visitors posted short notes in memory of family members, friends etc who died there.

But one lengthy notice stood out.

Written by a Japanese man, he stated that his people were never told of the events which transpired there, and he was deeply saddened by the brutality displayed by his countrymen. In closing his note, he deeply apologised for the actions of his people.

He was not part of it, nor was he responsible for any of it, but he still had the grace, dignity and humility to say “sorry”.

Many in Australia could learn much from him.

Good words Salty ..

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basesix Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 7:34pm
gsco wrote:
basesix wrote:

I'll leave the afore-asked question with you, @gsco, it is all a bit beyond me, the world is a rather confusing place, and the bits that are complex in a way that I have no understanding of, are best left to those that do. Re the Quadrant and AFR quotes: why is that great commentary? Seems kinda interesting, but then theories always are, though invariably say more about the theorists than the world. Probably a small part of the truth lies in most things. Do the quotes fit your theories?

What is science? Debate? Democracy? Is democracy similar to science? Do you believe in progress? Improvement? Have you read Hegel? Popper? Kuhn? Is your ego attached to what you currently believe? Are you honest, at least to yourself? Well intentioned? Do you want the best for humanity? Do you seek knowledge and truth? If so, how? Do you lead with your heart?

wow.. umm.. seems a bit intense for a first date.. I think pina coladas are gross, but pinacolatos and walks in the rain are great. My library is a very healthy one, thank you. On here, I guess I sit somewhere between AW and andy-m politically. But who cares about that? Fundamentally, I probably think that opinions are a bit boring - anything that creates a bias-filter to new information - opinions are next to beliefs, and then it is game over. Maybe chat to Optimist, and we'll see if we can have further chats, based on how that goes, this thread is not the space. I was thinking maths chats would be fun, to be honest.
(I had some good chats with Opti, got told off by Jelly, and slapped by AW for wishing him well at Easter ; )

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gsco Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 8:05pm

seems that you missed my point basesix (but I get yours).

But just quickly: are you implying that you've never expressed an opinion or belief? Aren't you criticising everyone in these forums by saying that "opinions are boring"? Are you sure opinions and beliefs have no role in the scientific process, evolution of human knowledge, and human progress?

I personally value everyone’s opinions and beliefs.

Never mind.

Sure, math chats anytime on another thread would be fine, if that's what you're comfortable with.

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basesix Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 8:03pm

sorry, gsco, go again?
(all yours, camped in a town atm waiting for a light easterly swing on tuesday, tomorrow should be ok, sthy, but friggin challengingly awesome like this coast is!)

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sypkan Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 8:12pm

"Sure, math chats anytime on another thread would be fine, if that's what you're comfortable with."

first base?

base1 mathematics...

wonder where this could go?

'basesix'

the mind boggles...

Pop Down's picture
Pop Down's picture
Pop Down Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 8:22pm

We will get another chance to do this Yes referendum , right .
In the meantime , the work to do it has already started .
A successful referendum needs to go through stages .
We have done stage 1.
The people of Australia know that FNP are suffering and things need to change urgently .
Surely , reducing the terrible social stats , by measurable targets , is the most urgent goal we can agree on .
Harry might think that some FNP want to return to being Nobel Hunter Gatherers . Anyone can chose to go off the grid . Australia is a harsh Continent . There are not many takers from any groups choosing this option (especially sensible women who want children ) .
Stage 2 is debating the issues ( with no politics - a ref is an individual choice imho , No Party's , No Corp's , No Union's , No nothing !!!!
( Stage 3 is getting bi partisan support . Stage 4 - Stakeholder engagement ( the hard work !!! Stage 5 is taking it to a Constitutional Hearing/Working Group to get the wording right , Stage 6 - Vote ) .
So U young guys are at Stage 2 .
As every state has to agree in a ref , QLD has to agree .
Am guessing a lot of U guys ( no girls on SN ) live in QLD .
U have to start finding things U agree on .
Bon Chance .
Yes voters - U have to convince around half the No voters in Old to change sides .
Really !!!!
You Yes voters will have to give ground . Both sides will have to .
Remember , lives are at stake . All Lasting , Solemn Agreements , between two sides , require both sides to be unhappy with the outcome .
The Problem needs to be fixed NOW .
A proper Referendum unites Australians .
They work when done properly , as unfortunately shown on the weekend .
Our Founding Fathers were very smart .
Rule 1 .
Don't F..k with the Constitution .
Governments will always stuff around , it's what they get paid to do .
When U guys can agree on the fundamentals , we can have another referendum and get the Yes .
Start working , please .

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basesix Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 9:16pm
gsco wrote:
'seems that you missed my point basesix (but I get yours).

But just quickly: are you implying that you've never expressed an opinion or belief?'
Nope, depending on the forum, am willing to be quite opinionated. Me a hella monkey man, given the space.

'Aren't you criticising everyone in these forums by saying that "opinions are boring"?'
Nope, it is all entertaining, and massively illuminating for me, I love a good salon, preferably working-class out of respect for me mum and me rellies. I have never had a mobile phone or been social media engaged. And when outside of my home, I tend to spend time with nature, and largely alone, I value these forums.

'Are you sure opinions and beliefs have no role in the scientific process, evolution of human knowledge, and human progress?'
I am sure they do, I love refelcting on this with regard to history, but I probably just wonder who the audience is for such pontifications now, outside of the formal academic and traditional structures, and mad online things.

'I personally value everyone’s opinions and beliefs.'
I think there is value in you, gsco, which is why I have engaged with you.

'Never mind.'
Well, ok then : )

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basesix Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 9:39pm
sypkan wrote:

"Sure, math chats anytime on another thread would be fine, if that's what you're comfortable with."

first base?

base1 mathematics...

wonder where this could go?

'basesix'

the mind boggles...

be sick, right?

basesix's picture
basesix's picture
basesix Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 9:44pm

.

I focus's picture
I focus's picture
I focus Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 11:22pm
andy-mac wrote:
A Salty Dog wrote:

I’m disappointed the Yes Vote didn’t get up. Yes or No, the result was never going affect me but it was an opportunity for white Australia to give FNP a say and ultimately a greater degree of control over their future. That opportunity may well be the last one.

Also, tbb’s summary of the international reports doesn’t paint us in a favourable light, and I suspect this result has only devalued our international reputation and may come back to haunt us in the future.

Last night on one news report, a young man was asked how he voted. His reply stunned me: “I didn’t know anything about it so I voted No” he said.

Looks like Dutton & Co cornered the Donkey Vote.

And Mundine announces the “hard work begins tomorrow”. Really? I would ask where the hell have you been for the last twenty years.

And some are still trying to make it personal/political by demanding Albanese resign. Of course, it was never political for the NO advocates.

The “Trumpian Politics” of the USA is alive and growing in Australia.

I also feel there is still some baggage from Rudd’s Apology. When discussing the referendum some still maintain they have nothing to say sorry for: not my fault, it wasn’t me etc. I wasn’t my fault either and hope my ancestors who arrived in Victoria in 1850 didn’t engage in any acts of violence against FNP.

But is it really that difficult to say sorry.

An uncle of mine was taken as a Japanese POW at the fall of Singapore and spent time in Changi, pre and post his stint on the Burma Railroad, which he fortunately survived. We visited the Changi Memorial in Singapore a few years ago: all the atrocities against POW’s and civilians laid out clearly for all to see. The period between 1937 and August 1945 is largely blank in Japanese history as I understand, so what surprised me was the number of Japanese people visiting the memorial. They had gone to investigate what they had heard happened there and see for themselves. They were not smiling and laughing about it.

The memorial had a notice board where visitors posted short notes in memory of family members, friends etc who died there.

But one lengthy notice stood out.

Written by a Japanese man, he stated that his people were never told of the events which transpired there, and he was deeply saddened by the brutality displayed by his countrymen. In closing his note, he deeply apologised for the actions of his people.

He was not part of it, nor was he responsible for any of it, but he still had the grace, dignity and humility to say “sorry”.

Many in Australia could learn much from him.

Good words Salty ..

+1

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truebluebasher Monday, 16 Oct 2023 at 12:02am

Indigenous Communities overwhelmingly Voted [YES]
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/oct/15/indigenous-commun...
Booth by Booth Aborigines backed the Voice
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/booth-by-booth-indigenous-austra...

Quite astounding that the least educated Australians understood The Voice but town folk feinted!
The more remote the Aboriginal Voter the higher the [Yes] Vote...63% > 92%...No brainer! Sorted!

NT 2019 [LNP] 35% Vote > dropped 2022 Jacinta Price > 30% 2023 Reffo Remote [NO] Vote 25%
Jacinta Price has lost 10% less remote Aboriginal Support after her Hate Campaign.
By far the most increasingly despised Oz Pollie amongst remote Aboriginal Population.
Yet that naturally only ramps more Media support by the minute...that's my kinda Abo minister!

After the Voice Jacinta has even Lesser Remote Aboriginal Mandate of now just 15-25%
A total failure for any Indigenous Party Leader...possibly least support ever amongst her First Peeps.

Linda Burney locked in 75- 90% Remote Aboriginal mandate for Voice in the Constitution.
Wherever the Aboriginal Pop approached 50% > Higher ever gained more % [YES]

AEC Responds to Jacinta's questioning of Remote Aborigine Voting Conduct
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/oct/15/jacinta-nampijinp...

Jacinta Queen of White Boomer Bogans was asked about why Aborigines overwhelmingly voted [YES]
Jacinta claims AEC Remote teams pushed & leaned on the Locals...
AEC rightly point out that 75% is Oz wide in all Aboriginal Communities NT > Qld > WA so on..
Jacinta can't admit that Highest % of all Remote Aborigines Voted highest [YES] of All Australians
They...her own people, fled in droves...

Voice Map reads Remote / Aborigines Fluro Green all States + {yes} Fed%
Oz cities Fluro green all states + {yes} Fed %
Oz [ Don't Know Vote No] Least exercising, laziest Voting Pop = Fluro Red all states + {no}Fed%
World clearly sees that majority that least to exercise their vote, Bully those that fully comply!

tbb feels for [NO] voters that breached Convention by failing to exercising their vote!
Can't imagine living with fact that one was too stupid to Vote where most remote Aborigines aced it!
Yes! History will spell that out nice & slowly for 30% non exercising Don't Know vote [NO] Norms!

Unschooled remote Aborigines without Booklets will freely run courses for 30% of Aussie Voters!
Feel like a piece of shit knowing after PM informed it was paramount to 80% of First Nation...Wot is?

AEC mandates that less Aboriginal % pop can enroll each year but more aging non indigenous will.
Voice : 94% of 50% of max Aboriginal younger Pop (vs) 97% of 70% of max non indigenous aged Pop.

AEC mandate less voting power each year...this was their last chance as aging white voter bias sets in.
Australia mandates Aborigines less voting rights & democratic means each year = VOICE was it!

Strange that highest % of non exercising Voters knew how to vote faster & earlier than ever before!
Even more strange that Aborigines had 2 weeks less time without Booklets understood the Voice.
World is shocked that 100% Compulsory Voting Nation has highest I don't Know Vote No Voters!

Pause: Given that #1 excuse was a resounding 30% don't know then informal votes must be high!
[FACTCHECK] Voice Reffo = 1.1% Informal Votes...OK! So 30% got up to speed in record time! Huh?
https://www.news.com.au/national/politics/informal-votes-in-voice-to-par...

So the result stands...Highly educated Voters were made to look like imbeciles by least educated.
How will World's fastest migrating elite ever compete for jobs with our genius remote population!

Jacinta : "Australia is not Racist...we're just not as intelligent as Remote First Nation People!"
Voice spells that out nice & slowly for those that still don't know!
World has no problem responding to our Voice...(News : Oz sticks their heads up their arses...again!)

southernraw's picture
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southernraw Monday, 16 Oct 2023 at 12:23am

TBB, your last few posts have been hall of famers.
Given me reason to chuckle.
Thanking you kindly.

Pop Down's picture
Pop Down's picture
Pop Down Monday, 16 Oct 2023 at 8:45am

TBB - your analysis on Covid was very helpful .
Your conclusion on the Voice , not so helpful .
That the most educated in Australia are Imbeciles.
Sounds like something Hilary Clinton would say !

andy-mac's picture
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andy-mac Monday, 16 Oct 2023 at 9:18am

Gina's No was a success...

https://www.smh.com.au/cbd/gina-rinehart-and-a-tale-of-two-referendum-ni...

Pop Down's picture
Pop Down's picture
Pop Down Monday, 16 Oct 2023 at 10:06am

For what it's worth , unfortunately , as surfing as such a young persons sport , I now believe male ( have U guys checked to see how women voted ? ) Surfers don't understand what a referendum actually IS .

Such a shame imho .

I think decisions decided by referendums , are are what ALL Australians ( as defined by the ref ) AGREE are , what is right or wrong .
Every individual has a lifetime of different experiences that affect their decision .
Not Right or Left .
Doing one good or bad act ( no matter how big or small ) reverberates ( pebble dropped in a pond stuff ) .
Time to ( try ) and do some good .

GuySmiley's picture
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GuySmiley Monday, 16 Oct 2023 at 10:08am
andy-mac wrote:

Gina's No was a success...

https://www.smh.com.au/cbd/gina-rinehart-and-a-tale-of-two-referendum-ni...

Yep, there to thank/pay the grifters personally

basesix's picture
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basesix Monday, 16 Oct 2023 at 10:17am

good comment @pop, that is why a lot of us lost interest (in the referendum, not the subject), as it became clear it was turning towards a close 'contest'. And why a lot of people found campaigning (as opposed to clear, correct information sharing) on the nose.

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indo-dreaming Monday, 16 Oct 2023 at 10:39am

Long read but a good one.

"Dealing with disappointment -Why No is a hard word to hear

The Australian public has voted No to the proposal to add an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice to Parliament to the Australian Constitution. This Referendum has been a disaster on so many levels. Rather than uniting us, it’s divided us, and left us angry and confused. The mess this has created is immense.

Many people will be devastated. Indigenous people may feel that they have been personally rejected. This is understandable. After all, the message from Yes campaigners has been that, if you care about Indigenous Australians, you vote Yes. On 13 October 2023, two days before the vote, Prime Minister Anthony Albanese said:

“This week of all weeks, where we see such trauma in the world, there is nothing, no cost, to Australians showing kindness, thinking with their heart as well as their head, when they enter the polling booth tomorrow.”

The implication was that if you voted No, you were unkind and heartless, and contributing to the sorts of divisions we’ve seen in Israel and Gaza.

It is vital that we keep two things in mind.

First, a No vote does not mean that the Australian people don’t care about Indigenous people. Nor does it mean that they want Indigenous people to suffer. Given the high initial polling for Yes, evidently people do care.

Secondly, contrary to the Prime Minister’s comments before the Referendum, this should not be the end of the matter.

It’s pivotal to consult Indigenous communities, and to ensure laws and measures designed to help them work effectively, and are consistent with cultural mores. If the Prime Minister truly wants to help Indigenous people, and if current measures are not working, he should look for another way.

There is a tendency for some to conclude, that when the public doesn’t vote in the way that they’d prefer, the fault lies with the people—we need a different public—less prejudiced and more enlightened. I can see this occurring already. One person on Twitter/X said:

“…We are a nation of small minded backwards racists. Own it. And now it’s official and you can check how many racists live in your local area on the AEC website! *slow clap*”

This conclusion should be resisted.

In a democracy, people should be able to openly express doubts and worries, with freedom of political speech enabling a feedback loop, ensuring that democratic bargaining can occur. If this has not worked, those who brought forward this proposal need to learn from its failure.

The Voice Referendum was a massive exercise in “preference falsification.” The majority of people became unconvinced by the proposal, and in fact, a large group of people in Australian society went from yeah to nah. However, very few people spoke of this publicly, lest they be accused of racism or stupidity. As a result, there was a reversal of opinion among political centrists, but only a few dared “put their heads above the parapet.” Timur Kuran has explained:

In the presence of preference falsification, private opposition may spread and intensify indefinitely without any apparent change in support for the status quo.1

In the privacy of the ballot box, the private preferences of the Australian public were revealed. Far more people privately thought that the Voice was unsustainable than were prepared to talk about it publicly.
Don’t stigmatise the people: listen to them.

Therein lies the rub.

I have been concerned about the uncompromising nature of the debate on the Voice proposal since late last year. It has been like watching a train crash in slow motion, and being unable to stop it.

The general proposition of much public commentary on the Yes side was that—because Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders are an undoubtedly disadvantaged minority group—the Voice proposal was the end of the conversation, not the beginning, and that anyone who asked questions was unjust, stupid, or racist.

It’s possible to care deeply about a group of people, yet nonetheless wonder whether a particular law or drafting of a law will produce the promised outcome.

A significant factor in the failure of the proposed amendement was the way in which some Yes campaigners responded to any good-faith criticism of, or doubts about, the proposal. This is why preference falsification became rife. Few people can easily brush off an accusation of being stupid or racist. I suspect that many voters started to worry about giving power to people who would stigmatise them if they simply asked questions.

I wanted to publish a piece about my own questions and doubts earlier this year. It came from a place of care for Indigenous people, first to warn advocates for Yes that the campaign was alienating people and running into disaster, and then to explain that—if proponents wanted this to get up—they’d have to change tack, provide more details, and face questions.

I was warned that if I published the planned article, I would be branded as “racist”, I would face abuse, my career would be destroyed, and Melbourne Law School would by attacked by association.

I was shocked and surprised. My great-great-great grandfather was Indigenous. I’ve taught Indigenous students since 1998, beginning as a tutor with the then-Koori Students Liaison Unit, and I have done everything I can to ensure Indigenous students feel welcome in our law school. My first scholarly work was on native title, and argued that we should take account of Indigenous perspectives on property.

Anyone who knows me knows that my arguments come from a place of care. I want to make things better. I did not want to cause problems for my colleagues, sow division, or exacerbate the slow-motion train wreck of a well-intentioned but imperfectly realised idea. I held my peace.

Over the course of the past nine months, I talked to a large number of immigrants to Australia. I felt it was important for them to understand the history of why Indigenous people had asked for this amendment. Most people to whom I talked had no idea of the history, and hence I drafted a post on it.

Many people to whom I spoke had come to Australia to escape distinctions on the basis of ethnic heritage, and in some instances, they had been forced to flee as refugees. I spoke to former Soviet Jews who noted that their USSR passports had denoted their ethnic ancestry and religion, to Malaysians and South Africans who had come to Australia to escape racial divides, and a Serbian who had lived through the war in the former Yugoslavia. The Serbian woman was very worried about emphasising ethnic divisions. These people all had good reasons to be anxious.

I thought it was important for these people’s concerns to be faced head-on, rather than responding glibly, “This isn’t about race, it’s about ancestry from Australia’s First Peoples.” While the Voice may not have used “race” in the discredited nineteenth century sense, the proposal focussed on ancestry.

We therefore witness the strange phenomenon that people who voted against a law designed to distinguish between Australian people on the basis of ancestry and cultural practice have been accused across the board of racism.

“My identification as a Jew was also on the basis of ancestry,” said one of the ex-Soviet people, in a low voice, “but I don’t dare talk about this. My ancestry isn’t entirely Jewish—one of my grandparents was a kulak—but I was identified as Jewish. I want to help Aboriginal people, but I am not sure about this. I don’t think dividing people up like this goes to good places. If we put it in the Constitution and it doesn’t work, Katya—can we take it out again?” I confirmed that it would be difficult: once entrenched, it’s hard to get something out, and that this was, in fact, part of the justification for the Referendum.

Nineteenth century racists created a moral hierarchy based on race. “White” people were “superior”, and people such as Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders were “inferior”. This is part of the reason why colonisation had such a devastating impact. In the US, if you had “one drop” of “inferior” blood, you were tainted. A racist attitude toward Indigenous people was, shamefully, entrenched in the Australian Constitution.

We still have the “race power” as a head of legislative power in the Constitution (s 51(xxvi)) but it has been amended to remove the words “other than the aboriginal race in any State.” Ironically, it has since been used primarily to pass legislation for the benefit of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, which is why the section cannot simply be removed.

Biological race does not exist among humans: we are simply not genetically distinct enough. Indeed, chimpanzees possess biological race, but humans do not. It’s also true to say, as Marcia Langton pointed out in a radio interview last year, that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people are from diverse ethnic backgrounds, with diverse customs and beliefs, and any reference to such people as belonging to a particular “race” is inapposite.

Although the Voice amendment did not invoke “race” in the nineteenth century sense, it gave one group of people a different kind of representation on the basis of ancestry and cultural heritage. It was precisely this which made many immigrants anxious. They know through experience that discrimination on the basis of “race” and on the basis of ancestry are only a hair’s breadth apart.

Langton also argued that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders were united by a sense of past and present injustice. If this was the thread used to sew disparate groups together, there is a risk that it would have entrenched resentment, rather than alleviating it. In a recent study, Israeli academics noted that a focus on collective and individual victimhood gives rise to a need for recognition of wrongdoing, moral elitism (a belief that one is superior because one is a victim), lack of empathy towards those viewed as oppressors, and rumination on past wrongs. It produces more resentment, not less.

I’m a remedies lawyer, and my business is righting wrongs. One must recognise historical wrongdoing, and learn from it, but one should not make people in the current day responsible for the acts of their ancestors. That’s tantamount to blood guilt, a dangerous concept indeed. Our common law has statutes of limitations for a reason. There comes a point when—even if someone has done wrong—liability must run out so people can move on. Recognising wrongs is important; ruminating over them is unhealthy.

We can’t turn back time. Indubitably, Indigenous people suffered during the colonisation of Australia. However, once the egg is broken and scrambled, there’s no way to unscramble it, any more than it’s possible to take the Indigenous part out of me, and extract it from the convicts and settlers.

People from many different backgrounds now share this amazing and beautiful land with the First Peoples. All we can do is try to learn from the mistakes of the past, and move forward. It is really important not to come out of this process angrier and more broken than we were before.

It can be counterproductive for society more generally when we concentrate on what divides us, rather than what we have in common. The work of the psychologist Karen Stenner is revealing.2 She argues that while some people celebrate diversity and openness in society, and some are simply conservative, there is a third group that is innately authoritarian when faced with diversity. The belief that we can “educate the intolerance away” is mistaken. She says:

But all the available evidence indicates that exposure to difference, talking about difference, and applauding difference—the hallmarks of liberal democracy—are the surest ways to aggravate those who are innately intolerant, and to guarantee the increased expression of their predispositions in manifestly intolerant attitudes and behaviours.

Paradoxically, then, it would seem that we can best limit intolerance of difference by parading, talking about, and applauding our sameness. ... [t]his strategy is not nearly as daunting as it might sound, as it is the appearance of sameness that matters, and that apparent variance in beliefs, values, and culture seem to be more provocative of intolerant dispositions than racial and ethnic diversity. …

Ultimately, nothing inspires greater tolerance from the intolerant than an abundance of common and unifying beliefs, practices, rituals, institutions, and processes. And regrettably, nothing is more certain to provoke increased expression of their latent predispositions than the likes of “multicultural education,” bilingual policies, and non-assimilation. In the end, our showy celebration of, and absolute insistence upon, individual autonomy and unconstrained diversity pushes those [who are] by nature least equipped to live comfortably in a liberal democracy not to the limits of their tolerance, but to their intolerant extremes. ...

We can do all the moralizing we like about how we want our ideal democratic citizens to be. But freedom is most secure and tolerance is maximized when we design systems to accommodate how people actually are, because some people will never live comfortably in a modern liberal democracy.3

Paradoxically, separating out Indigenous people and emphasising how they are different from other Australian people may unintentionally entrench intolerance among those who are most likely to respond in an authoritarian or racist manner.

We cannot forget Indigenous people who are suffering and in need. We must look at other means of ensuring Indigenous communities are consulted on measures designed to help them. There is considerable goodwill out there, and frankly, it’s been squandered in this debate.

A Malaysian Chinese friend reminded me of the words of the song “I am Australian”:

We are one, but we are many
And from all the lands on earth we come
We’ll share a dream and sing with one voice
“I am, you are, we are Australian”

This is the spirit in which we must move forward.

We must work together, as one, with a recognition that, whatever our ancestry, we are all Australian. Please, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, do not take this as rejection. My private discussions with a wide range of people uniformly disclosed the fact that people cared deeply, it’s just that they disagreed on the best means to deal with the problems.

I am sick of division and polarisation: Us and Them. Social media and world politics is rife with it, and in some places, people are killing each other on this basis.

Let’s remember that we are all human, and that everyone, including the First Nations people of this country, deserves to be treated with decency."

https://www.whatkatydid.net/p/dealing-with-disappointment?fbclid=IwAR3qS...

A Salty Dog's picture
A Salty Dog's picture
A Salty Dog Monday, 16 Oct 2023 at 10:51am
andy-mac wrote:

Gina's No was a success...

https://www.smh.com.au/cbd/gina-rinehart-and-a-tale-of-two-referendum-ni...

Of course, the No Campaign was never a political exercise was it!!!

And the 'Elites", whoever they may be, became the enemy to be defeated at all costs.

The "Elites": another import from American Right Wing politics. Just another example of creating an enemy to rail against, when nothing else is available.

The LNP always claimed the"Voice" was "racist", and suggested legislation to create an identical body was all that was required. They never explained the mechanism, or under which section of the Constitution this new legislation would be passed. You could use Section 51 (xxvi) but that would be blatantly racist. No one in the media from what I saw ever took the LNP to task over their proposal.

Constitutional recognition via the "Voice" with a greater role in self determination incorporated into it was the simplest, most effective way. After that it was up to the FNP to make the most of it.

Sadly politics killed it.

flollo's picture
flollo's picture
flollo Monday, 16 Oct 2023 at 11:09am

That’s was very good indo. We experienced a fair bit of this I reckon:

‘I suspect that many voters started to worry about giving power to people who would stigmatise them if they simply asked questions.’

soggydog's picture
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soggydog Monday, 16 Oct 2023 at 11:13am
GuySmiley wrote:
andy-mac wrote:

Gina's No was a success...

https://www.smh.com.au/cbd/gina-rinehart-and-a-tale-of-two-referendum-ni...

Yep, there to thank/pay the grifters personally

Wonder if Jacinta, Warren and Peter will be up for “awards” similar to the stinky one Barnaby returned.

burleigh's picture
burleigh's picture
burleigh Monday, 16 Oct 2023 at 11:16am

Did you blokes all eat lemons for breakfast? Take your Loss, realise your views are the minority and move on.

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan Monday, 16 Oct 2023 at 11:19am

good article...

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/the-devil-in-the-details-insi...

what a shambles

pity there wasn't more of this analysis before...

it's like a closd shop union scenario brought the whole thing down

sealed unit closed shop and hubris...

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan Monday, 16 Oct 2023 at 11:26am

and a woeful elitist canpaign...

which isn't very union

as the ad man on drum said the other night, having qantas and the big banks on your side isn't necesarily a win...

fred hooper nodded along with a very knowingly little half smile on his face

burleigh's picture
burleigh's picture
burleigh Monday, 16 Oct 2023 at 11:33am

400 Million poured down the drain. You sour blokes should turn your anger to this instead.

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan Monday, 16 Oct 2023 at 11:49am

labor don't do numbers...

sypkan's picture
sypkan's picture
sypkan Monday, 16 Oct 2023 at 11:51am

it's the same with the ndis

if labor don't take those ridiculous spiralling out of control numbers seriously soon...

they'll soon lose that 'principle' too

frog's picture
frog's picture
frog Monday, 16 Oct 2023 at 12:16pm

From Indo's posted long long cut and pasted article above on the Voice:

"I suspect that many voters started to worry about giving power to people who would stigmatise them if they simply asked questions."

Harry, you out there still? Pondering where the Voice might head to became more concerning the more you posted. Well done.

Marcia might take note.

In committees, the big talkers with the strongest views, tend to dominate. Many came to wonder whether the likely BIG Voices would be the right ones for FNP and Australia, the more we heard from Marcia, Noel and others, and media synchophants attacking any guest raising concerns.

gsco's picture
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gsco Monday, 16 Oct 2023 at 12:08pm

Is that quote referring to The Voice or Covid..?

Ahh the parallels are striking on so many dimensions..

soggydog's picture
soggydog's picture
soggydog Monday, 16 Oct 2023 at 12:41pm
sypkan wrote:

it's the same with the ndis

if labor don't take those ridiculous spiralling out of control numbers seriously soon...

they'll soon lose that 'principle' too

Aaaah, I think you might find bill shorten already addressed the mismanagement of NDIS funds from the previous government and provided tax payers with quite the saving….. I’m not 100% sure but I think it was to the tune of $750 mill. So even if you subtract the $400 mill from the voice campaign taxpayers could be ahead about $350 mill.

But yeah, Labor has the numbers problem.

GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley's picture
GuySmiley Monday, 16 Oct 2023 at 12:41pm

#algorithmrabbitholes

soggydog's picture
soggydog's picture
soggydog Monday, 16 Oct 2023 at 12:46pm

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-06-21/ndis-bill-shorten-cracking-down-p...

Here you go Sypkan

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming Monday, 16 Oct 2023 at 12:54pm
sypkan wrote:

good article...

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/the-devil-in-the-details-insi...

what a shambles

pity there wasn't more of this analysis before...

it's like a closd shop union scenario brought the whole thing down

sealed unit closed shop and hubris...

The comments are much better than the article.


frog's picture
frog's picture
frog Monday, 16 Oct 2023 at 1:08pm
sypkan wrote:

good article...

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/the-devil-in-the-details-insi...

pity there wasn't more of this analysis before...

it's like a closd shop union scenario brought the whole thing down

sealed unit closed shop and hubris...

Some ownership of the result at last:

“The Australian people voted on 92 words that they didn’t understand, that were very niche and bespoke and that they didn’t believe would have a practical outcome. If they believed it would have, we would have had a Yes vote,” Stewart says.

“We asked for this referendum and the government facilitated the process. The loss of this referendum falls fairly and squarely on us as Aboriginal campaigners.”

A shambolic misdirected campaign based on hubris, slapdash tactics and a small huddle of powerful leaders calling all the shots in isolation from their FNP and wider commonsense advice.

All of the above are signs that The Voice itself would have been much the same.