The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
wake the fuck up media!
@stu I have unsuccessfully tried to find what Bud1 posted in this forum topic which I commented on as "powerful and truthful words" a day or two before he was most recently sin binned. Can you post the link to his or my reply for me here, Cheers
So the breakdown was 40-60% ... that would be right. In 67 it was 90% with bipartisanship... that's 10% of the racist/haters accounted for. Take 10% racist/haters off the 60% leaves the conservative 50%.
That's about right... the reason Coalition govts get in... It's only when this cohort sees the absolute corrupt rubbish they've voted in (such as the last lot of bandits) that they'll vote for Alp. Australia is a conservative country and, in general, people are wary/scared of change. That's why progressive politics is generally resisted. This should change once our kids grow up... they can see the catastrophes of climate change, they will learn of Australia's deeply racist past (WAP)... They will learn the necessity of valuing the environment. I'm an optimist.
As for the local crew... I would say about 60% are racist/stupid/gullible/ignorant... so that seems about right.
soggydog wrote:gsco wrote:Thanks IB and I hope so too.
But the exact opposite is already happening and is only going to get worse.
This is the end of innocent Australia.
This is Australia's Trump moment.
This is the beginning of a degenerate, decayed, polarised and divided Australia internally at war with itself a-la US politics, culture, academia and media identity politics and culture wars, white-anting itself from the inside out.
This is when the progressive left and its populist identity politics and social justice activism, fuelled and indeed intoxicated by its western Marxism driven critical race theory ideology, finally splinters and disassociates itself from the rest of the population and reinforces its belief as morally and intellectually superior to, and condescendingly holds in contempt, the rest of the uneducated, ignorant, conspiracy theory believing, racist, fascist, barbarian peasant masses.
We are already seeing it happening right now, right in front of our eyes, with the Yes side now blaming the result on misinformation and lies, on the conservative right, on conspiracy theories, on racism and fascism, on ignorance and fear, etc: blaming the result on everything but itself and its new style of identity politics and culture wars.
And this is all evident in the voting patterns (where Indo was right yet again), showing that the Yes vote was concentrated in the inner city.
This is when the new age progressive left becomes completely rabid and militant and turns on the people, holding them in contempt. It's when the progressive left no longer respects, believes in and listens to the people, but instead tries to divert and derail the democratic process and freedom of speech and tries to enforce and oppress its beliefs on the people due to its conclusion that the people clearly cannot be trusted to make the correct intelligent, well informed decisions for the nation.
It's the moment Australia becomes what the US has become.
Come out to the country and talk to some over 60 white peoples and tell me racism , misinformation and unfounded fears didn’t contribute to this result. The concentration of voting patterns really should come as no surprise.
And yes we are heading towards a US style of politics, Dismissing the progressive left ias a bunch of identity politics obsessed marxists is more a tactic of right media I would say to create a point of division with which too distract from issues that will affect us all. So while your self and the likes of Indo are happy to punch down on those radical lefty’s remember when you’ve supported laws of suppression and surveillance over freedom and equality and the crazed protesters are gone our march towards a more oppressive society will be fully realised.Identity politics is not a torch born by the left, it is a tool born and amplified by the establishment to keep the stupid angry and occupied. The same as the No campaign.
Most lefty’s are working for something better.
Glad someone called out that nonsense.
Geez the only people really raving about woke etc are the right. Been MO of extreme right and fascists groups for years. Create enemy then go hard, Nazis did it well and it seems to be the same groups @gsco is claiming are doing this that the Nazis went after.
No I am not calling anyone a Nazi, just highlighting who they attacked. Left wing groups, unions, homosexuals etc.
That we are heading down trumpist style mess is squarely on right side of politics. Albo for all his faults and fuck ups tried to unite country where Dutton etc divided, black gangs anyone?
Now I just read that Jacinta Price having a go at AEC. Dangerous undermining institutions such as this, not the words of true conservative.
As a side note, have started watching doco on Netflix called Ordinary Men, about nazi death squads who were just tasked with killing Jews. Heavy as they were just 'normal men.'
Banality of evil.
There is no politics in this passionate statement .
Exactly what most Australians want to happen with the FNP issue .
That is why the polls were so positive at the start .
For governments to lead and for the media and opposition to keep them accountable .
For governments to get off their bums and do some real work .
Address the most urgent issues now .
They have been working on it since fucken 1967 !
Oh My Stars - it seems so obvious .
KISS .
sypkan wrote:plrase don't try and tell me mundine's concern for his people is not genuine...
Maybe the issues he is talking about could have been helped by the Voice?
Faux outrage me thinks ...
andy-mac wrote:sypkan wrote:plrase don't try and tell me mundine's concern for his people is not genuine...
Maybe the issues he is talking about could have been helped by the Voice?
Faux outrage me thinks ...
Id meme it if I knew how...
you cannot be serious!
the dude just won the battle of his life...
faux outrage... not neceessary / not possible
harrycoopr wrote:So the breakdown was 40-60% ... that would be right. In 67 it was 90% with bipartisanship... that's 10% of the racist/haters accounted for. Take 10% racist/haters off the 60% leaves the conservative 50%.
That's about right... the reason Coalition govts get in... It's only when this cohort sees the absolute corrupt rubbish they've voted in (such as the last lot of bandits) that they'll vote for Alp. Australia is a conservative country and, in general, people are wary/scared of change. That's why progressive politics is generally resisted. This should change once our kids grow up... they can see the catastrophes of climate change, they will learn of Australia's deeply racist past (WAP)... They will learn the necessity of valuing the environment. I'm an optimist.
As for the local crew... I would say about 60% are racist/stupid/gullible/ignorant... so that seems about right.
you're whole premise is contemporary 'progresive politics' isn't part of the problem...
broken
again...
irredeemable
(you)
sypkan wrote:andy-mac wrote:sypkan wrote:plrase don't try and tell me mundine's concern for his people is not genuine...
Maybe the issues he is talking about could have been helped by the Voice?
Faux outrage me thinks ...Id meme it if I knew how...
you cannot be serious!
the dude just won the battle of his life...
faux outrage... not neceessary / not possible
Ok yep I apologise. Typed before thinking too much.
Still the Voice was going to address the things he was talking about. It was a start and something new.
No member of LNP really has any right to criticise as they were in govt for a decade and did sweet fuck all.
Price is IPA sock puppet and my guess now Gina etc are finished their campaign, she will drop from view.
'woke'
'fascists'
'homosexuals'
haha
A summary of just one month of TRAs mobbing women's events around the world.
— MrMenno 🏳️🌈🎶 (@MrMennoTweets) October 13, 2023
The Tyranny of Trans Activism - September Special
Buckle up for a 20 min ride of #TransJoy🤡#LetWomenSpeak #SeptemberSpecial pic.twitter.com/w8TLViOHXK
call out your bitches... before it is too late!
And if you think Dutton is now going to step up to help FNP's, I've got a cheap bridge for sale.
Only positive I can see is that the electorates Dutton needs to be electable all voted Yes.
LNP brand toxic in their traditional areas and where they need votes.
sypkan wrote:san Guine wrote:A win for:
1. The callous (don't care)
2. The jealous (they're getting something I don't have)
3. Negativism (if a government does something it MUST be wrong)
4. Constitutional conservatives (who make sweeping motherhood statements regarding the Constitution but don't actually understand its framing, content nor intent)
5. Dutton and the politics of division (Abbot 3.0)
6. Newscorp (lies, hyperbole and misinformation)
7. Racists
8. Conspiracists (But now you're in the majority is it still a conspiracy???)
9. 20% of the 4% indigenous people(0.8%) who don't want the Voice
10. Haters
11. Dullards
12. Those who opposed the Voice and talk big game about how we can do better for our FNP, but NEVER provide one example about how that will occurThese groups aren't mutually exclusive, so you can be in more groups than one...
you go rove!
(who was also clueless and full of shit)
Ha ha OMG i saw Roves rant
Not going to bother picking the whole post apart but
"20% of the 4% indigenous people(0.8%) who don't want the Voice"\
Has been found to no longer to be true the correct figure from more recent polling was 59% Aboriginal support, majority but far from 80%
Continuing with the 80% figure through the whole campaign like they did was misleading and would have been like continually claiming 60 to 70% of Australia supports the voice because that was the figure very early in the year.
Andy - If the process was done properly we would have known ( not a maybe ) these issue would have been addressed .
That is what referendums are supposed to do , in the real world .
The vote would be a big YES , today , as the early polls indicated .
I feel so sad and angry today .
What a waste !
Perhaps , things in Alice Springs , would not change much , longterm , with either a Yes or a No ?
I pray work has been done on a Plan B .
Our festering sore is a National disgrace !
It's distressing for our whole country .
gsco wrote:harrycoopr wrote:gsco wrote:Thanks IB and I hope so too.
But the exact opposite is already happening and is only going to get worse.
This is the end of innocent Australia.
This is Australia's Trump moment.
This is the beginning of a degenerate, decayed, polarised and divided Australia internally at war with itself a-la US politics, culture, academia and media identity politics and culture wars, white-anting itself from the inside out.
This is when the progressive left and its populist identity politics and social justice activism, fuelled and indeed intoxicated by its western Marxism driven critical race theory ideology, finally splinters and disassociates itself from the rest of the population and reinforces its belief as morally and intellectually superior to, and condescendingly holds in contempt, the rest of the uneducated, ignorant, conspiracy theory believing, racist, fascist, barbarian peasant masses.
We are already seeing it happening right now, right in front of our eyes, with the Yes side now blaming the result on misinformation and lies, on the conservative right, on conspiracy theories, on racism and fascism, on ignorance and fear, etc: blaming the result on everything but itself and its new style of identity politics and culture wars.
And this is all evident in the voting patterns (where Indo was right yet again), showing that the Yes vote was concentrated in the inner city.
This is when the new age progressive left becomes completely rabid and militant and turns on the people, holding them in contempt. It's when the progressive left no longer respects, believes in and listens to the people, but instead tries to divert and derail the democratic process and freedom of speech and tries to enforce and oppress its beliefs on the people due to its conclusion that the people clearly cannot be trusted to make the correct intelligent, well informed decisions for the nation.
It's the moment Australia becomes what the US has become.
"Innocent Australia"... like?????
Yr truly a nutjob...
Oh, sorry, a fascist nutjobI'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't realise that what I mean by "innocent Australia" is that Australian politics, society and academia has not completely succumbed to identity politics, critical race theory and cultural warfare like the US has (but of course we are very close).
(Btw your reaction is the reason theYes campaign failed: holding those who have a different view to you in contempt, insulting and abusing them, and labelling them as racist and fascist (combined with a condescending and contemptuous campaign based on thinking the general public would get duped by a gigantic appeal to emotion and guilt). I'm one of the least racist and fascist people you'll meet.)
Now is a moment of choice for Australia. Either the progressive left doubles down in the critical race theory bunkers and takes things to the next level, and then the conservative right reacts to this by itself bunkering down, or hopefully the worm has turned in Aus/NZ politics and we move away from western Marxism:
Great day for Conservatism downunder. Australia votes against the idea that we should be treated differently because of racial background and Ardern quitting couldn't stop the Nationals taking power in NZ. 👏👏
— Tim Montgomerie 🇬🇧 (@montie) October 14, 2023Some good news for a change, on the other side of the world:
— Spike Cohen (@RealSpikeCohen) October 14, 2023
- Australia had a referendum for a constitutional amendment that would've created a "Voice" to Parliament, which came with very little detail. It had the backing of the Australian federal government, every major…Australia rejects the Indigenous Voice to Parliament, which would have enshrined racial identity politics in its constitutional makeup. A stunning blow to the politics of identity, made against the usual elite smears. Democracy is the solution to wokeness https://t.co/K37OfSAwSn
— Tom Slater (@Tom_Slater_) October 14, 2023🗣 ‘The reason why I don’t like identity politics is because it forces people to look at themselves as tribes.’
— The Spectator (@spectator) October 14, 2023
🎙 Fraser Nelson in conversation with Kemi Badenoch at Tory conference pic.twitter.com/4kSLh6mCaO
Thanks for proving my my point on which side of politics amplify identity politics, and then you mentioned critical race theory. Mate, they’re largely identity politics talking point’s originating in the US. On one hand you say we’re on a slippery slope to US style division then you immediately want to discuss and blame lefty’s for raising these issues in Australian discourse. Are you kidding me?
andy-mac wrote:And if you think Dutton is now going to step up to help FNP's, I've got a cheap bridge for sale.
Only positive I can see is that the electorates Dutton needs to be electable all voted Yes.
LNP brand toxic in their traditional areas and where they need votes.
I don't...
dutton has nothing but bile
and, but... he influenced no one!
yes, he could've gone bipartisan...
but labor made no effort to bridge the gap
none whatsoever
they also refused to meet the blak sovereign movement...
flatly refused, many offers...
own goals all round
harrycoopr wrote:So the breakdown was 40-60% ... that would be right. In 67 it was 90% with bipartisanship... that's 10% of the racist/haters accounted for. Take 10% racist/haters off the 60% leaves the conservative 50%.
That's about right... the reason Coalition govts get in... It's only when this cohort sees the absolute corrupt rubbish they've voted in (such as the last lot of bandits) that they'll vote for Alp. Australia is a conservative country and, in general, people are wary/scared of change. That's why progressive politics is generally resisted. This should change once our kids grow up... they can see the catastrophes of climate change, they will learn of Australia's deeply racist past (WAP)... They will learn the necessity of valuing the environment. I'm an optimist.
As for the local crew... I would say about 60% are racist/stupid/gullible/ignorant... so that seems about right.
Problem with this theory is polls and seats show that while LNP voters tended to vote No and Labor voters tended to Vote yes some LNP voters voted Yes and lots of Labor voters No, even polls showed not all Green voters voted Yes although they followed party stance much more than other voters.
It should also be noted all of Western Sydney a very large multicultural area voted No
BTW. Once the kids grow up, so will the way they vote, the brain isn't even fully developed until the mid to late 20's and then throw in life experience .
sypkan wrote:andy-mac wrote:And if you think Dutton is now going to step up to help FNP's, I've got a cheap bridge for sale.
Only positive I can see is that the electorates Dutton needs to be electable all voted Yes.
LNP brand toxic in their traditional areas and where they need votes.I don't...
dutton has nothing but bile
and, but... he influenced no one!
yes, he could've gone bipartisan...
but labor made no effort to bridge the gap
none whatsoever
they also refused to meet the blak sovereign movement...
flatly refused, many offers...
own goals all round
It was not Labor's policy. It was an election promise before they gained power.
The wreckers wrecked it. Yep Labor could have run it better, but easier to tear down than build.
Anyway it's done, but reckon this lefty woke journo nails it.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/commentisfree/2023/oct/14/alb...
harrycoopr wrote:@ #boycottindo "Well if Aboriginal people were left to be and live like they had for thousands of years they still would be dying at 40."
My god... this guy's stupidity just keeps on truckin'
We saw plenty of disgusting tactics from the Yes campaign. Spitting middle aged women, gimps wearing dog masks in public, Briggs labelling everyone racists that didnt agree with his sellout views. Ray martin, the rainbow brigade asking for their own voice, The harrys abusing anyone that didn't agree. The list goes on.
GuySmiley wrote:@stu I have unsuccessfully tried to find what Bud1 posted in this forum topic which I commented on as "powerful and truthful words" a day or two before he was most recently sin binned. Can you post the link to his or my reply for me here, Cheers
Bumping up the dung pile
Sypkan, but "the left is kind" someone on this forum once said. If it is progressive activism it must be good no matter what the behaviour.
China's cultural revolution struggle sessions were very progressive, left and "kind":
"Struggle sessions or denunciation rallies were violent public spectacles in Maoist China where people accused of being "class enemies" were publicly humiliated, accused, beaten and tortured by people with whom they were close. Usually conducted at the workplace, classrooms and auditoriums, "students were pitted against their teachers, friends and spouses were pressured to betray one another, [and] children were manipulated into exposing their parents"
Ideology, self righteousness and group think can lead to some very strange places on either end of the left to right spectrum.
The left is actually more prone to extreme ideology and activism than the right because self righteousness is easier to sustain using the "greater good" and virtue justification. Tens of millions were killed under the kindness of the left in China and Russia for real or perceived wrong think.
That is, excepting religious fundamentalists, who have the ultimate justification of god on their side and can be equally frightening.
andy-mac wrote:sypkan wrote:andy-mac wrote:sypkan wrote:plrase don't try and tell me mundine's concern for his people is not genuine...
Maybe the issues he is talking about could have been helped by the Voice?
Faux outrage me thinks ...Id meme it if I knew how...
you cannot be serious!
the dude just won the battle of his life...
faux outrage... not neceessary / not possible
Ok yep I apologise. Typed before thinking too much.
Still the Voice was going to address the things he was talking about. It was a start and something new.
No member of LNP really has any right to criticise as they were in govt for a decade and did sweet fuck all.
Price is IPA sock puppet and my guess now Gina etc are finished their campaign, she will drop from view.
If its so wonderful and magic no reason Albo cant put it in policy like he should have before taking it to a referendum.
Obviously Jacinta will drop from view, at the best of times people dont even know who the Indigenous minister of affairs is let alone the shadow minister of indigenous affairs.
BTW. You do know Gina funds Aboriginal program's and also would have provided many very well paying jobs, id expect also provides income to mobs with land rents etc
https://nit.com.au/17-10-2022/4098/when-it-comes-to-roy-hill-and-gina-ri...
here u go GuySmiley
GuySmiley wrote:“ … You can either see what ‘colonialism’ was and is, a disgusting, inhuman blight on humanity, and give those human beings that had their voices and every skerrick of humanity so brutally and despicably stolen from them, a skerrick of their humanity back, a voice, for starters…..”
“… And you can either easily see what Indigenous Australian Cultures were and are, the evidence is all there in bucket loads. The astounding brilliance of their human story, including their lack of parading and championing war and inequality, or ‘colonialism’…..”
Powerful truthful words Bud1
Page 72,
(I just googled a few keywords.)
for sheer comic value its
1. Trump beats Hilary
2. No vote
3. Brexit
gsco wrote:here u go GuySmiley
GuySmiley wrote:“ … You can either see what ‘colonialism’ was and is, a disgusting, inhuman blight on humanity, and give those human beings that had their voices and every skerrick of humanity so brutally and despicably stolen from them, a skerrick of their humanity back, a voice, for starters…..”
“… And you can either easily see what Indigenous Australian Cultures were and are, the evidence is all there in bucket loads. The astounding brilliance of their human story, including their lack of parading and championing war and inequality, or ‘colonialism’…..”
Powerful truthful words Bud1
Page 72,
(I just googled a few keywords.)
Thanks gsco.
Imo Bud1’s words ^^^ are the best written anywhere I have read arguing for the Voice by a person often dismissed.
So where does this leave us and what next? All I’m prepared to say is if the country isn’t prepared to say YES and embrace the request for the Voice, something that wouldn’t have meant 2 beans to people what future chance has any government of any persuasion have of getting people to agree to change that actually effects their life in the tiniest of ways?
What a miserable selfish country we have become.
burleigh wrote:harrycoopr wrote:@ #boycottindo "Well if Aboriginal people were left to be and live like they had for thousands of years they still would be dying at 40."
My god... this guy's stupidity just keeps on truckin'We saw plenty of disgusting tactics from the Yes campaign. Spitting middle aged women, gimps wearing dog masks in public, Briggs labelling everyone racists that didnt agree with his sellout views. Ray martin, the rainbow brigade asking for their own voice, The harrys abusing anyone that didn't agree. The list goes on.
Yep disgusting far worse than the Nazis pushing the No vote.
sypkan wrote:plrase don't try and tell me mundine's concern for his people is not genuine...
So if wazza has been so involved and concerned why hasn’t there been better results ? that’s the questions the media should be asking. JP wants an audit into the spending, great idea let’s look at the last 10 years . https://x.com/ronnisalt/status/1713348880941855174?s=46&t=5RczxwAfzXe7hK.... https://x.com/tweet_frankie/status/1713355245764628942?s=46&t=5RczxwAfzX...
andy-mac wrote:sypkan wrote:andy-mac wrote:And if you think Dutton is now going to step up to help FNP's, I've got a cheap bridge for sale.
Only positive I can see is that the electorates Dutton needs to be electable all voted Yes.
LNP brand toxic in their traditional areas and where they need votes.I don't...
dutton has nothing but bile
and, but... he influenced no one!
yes, he could've gone bipartisan...
but labor made no effort to bridge the gap
none whatsoever
they also refused to meet the blak sovereign movement...
flatly refused, many offers...
own goals all round
It was not Labor's policy. It was an election promise before they gained power.
The wreckers wrecked it. Yep Labor could have run it better, but easier to tear down than build.
Anyway it's done, but reckon this lefty woke journo nails it.https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/commentisfree/2023/oct/14/alb...
yep agree with all...
except the lack of empathy part... it's true for certain sections of the community... but...
'...It will require a new generation of Indigenous leadership to pick up the pieces of this failure...'
yep
that's what is needed!!
so so much...
people won't listen to jp... they're 'triggered' ...instantaneously...
so I urge you to listen to little hardnut kuarna girl on that qanda episode...
'aboriginal leadership needs a good clean out'
'need some new blood'
the voice was only ever going to empower the old guard
the crew that got us to this point... with all the corruption and cover up that comes wih em...
look at the history of some commentators on here, they take any criticism as attack... and attack back...
they don't believe in reform, or that any trasnparancy is needed, they cannot distinguish between heartfelt constructive criticism and 'racism'
all they do is frown...
frown, slur, and belittle...
the whole blackfella land council, NGO mega-complex needs reform
needs!!!
a shining ray of sunshine...
all power to jp and am... and little hardnut kuarna girl...
it's gonna hurt, but little will change without it...
sypkan wrote:harrycoopr wrote:So the breakdown was 40-60% ... that would be right. In 67 it was 90% with bipartisanship... that's 10% of the racist/haters accounted for. Take 10% racist/haters off the 60% leaves the conservative 50%.
That's about right... the reason Coalition govts get in... It's only when this cohort sees the absolute corrupt rubbish they've voted in (such as the last lot of bandits) that they'll vote for Alp. Australia is a conservative country and, in general, people are wary/scared of change. That's why progressive politics is generally resisted. This should change once our kids grow up... they can see the catastrophes of climate change, they will learn of Australia's deeply racist past (WAP)... They will learn the necessity of valuing the environment. I'm an optimist.
As for the local crew... I would say about 60% are racist/stupid/gullible/ignorant... so that seems about right.you're whole premise is contemporary 'progresive politics' isn't part of the problem...
broken
again...
irredeemable
(you)
That's why the last corrupt lot got definitively turfed out on their arses
Look to yrself dickbrand
sypkan wrote:andy-mac wrote:sypkan wrote:andy-mac wrote:And if you think Dutton is now going to step up to help FNP's, I've got a cheap bridge for sale.
Only positive I can see is that the electorates Dutton needs to be electable all voted Yes.
LNP brand toxic in their traditional areas and where they need votes.I don't...
dutton has nothing but bile
and, but... he influenced no one!
yes, he could've gone bipartisan...
but labor made no effort to bridge the gap
none whatsoever
they also refused to meet the blak sovereign movement...
flatly refused, many offers...
own goals all round
It was not Labor's policy. It was an election promise before they gained power.
The wreckers wrecked it. Yep Labor could have run it better, but easier to tear down than build.
Anyway it's done, but reckon this lefty woke journo nails it.https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/commentisfree/2023/oct/14/alb...
yep agree with all...
except the lack of empathy part... it's true for certain sections of the community... but...
'...It will require a new generation of Indigenous leadership to pick up the pieces of this failure...'
yep
that's what is needed!!
so so much...
people won't listen to jp... they're 'triggered' ...instantaneously...
so I urge you to listen to little hardnut kuarna girl on that qanda episode...
'aboriginal leadership needs a good clean out'
'need some new blood'
the voice was only ever going to empower the old guard
the crew that got us to this point... with all the corruption and cover up that comes wih em...
look at the history of some commentators on here, they take any criticism as attack... and attack back...
they don't believe in reform, or that any trasnparancy is needed, they cannot distinguish between heartfelt constructive criticism and 'racism'
all they do is frown...
frown, slur, and belittle...
the whole blackfella land council, NGO mega-complex needs reform
needs!!!
a shining ray of sunshine...
all power to jp and am... and little hardnut kuarna girl...
it's gonna hurt, but little will change without it...
Tell me how the voice would only empower the old guard . The design put forward by the yes campaign was for community elected representatives not government appointed ones . The LNP are all for a voice but only want JPs voice , why do you think that might be ?
Sypkan wtf was that gender rally video, my brain short circuited. Had to look up what a TERF is and well there you go there's a contested discourse on that one. Pink blue and Lenin flags were something new.
Re: the voice result, how do you all think the prediction of graduate/non graduate and internationalist/nationalist voting intentions suggested here...
https://tapri.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/Voice-finalV5.pdf
...worked out on the day?
burleigh wrote:harrycoopr wrote:@ #boycottindo "Well if Aboriginal people were left to be and live like they had for thousands of years they still would be dying at 40."
My god... this guy's stupidity just keeps on truckin'We saw plenty of disgusting tactics from the Yes campaign. Spitting middle aged women, gimps wearing dog masks in public, Briggs labelling everyone racists that didnt agree with his sellout views. Ray martin, the rainbow brigade asking for their own voice, The harrys abusing anyone that didn't agree. The list goes on.
Is that all you can think of fishfood? You're on #boycottindo's truck of stupidity, ain't ya dumbo.
Anthropology 101 will teach u thickheads that comparatively blackfellas were living a MUCH healthier AND longer life at the precolonial time than Europeans. They worked less for their food, had more time for their cultural/spiritual pursuits and I imagine were much happier than their peasant counterparts (soon to be invaders/dispossessors). Yes it would've been tough living in the bush but that's why they're so resilient... not like the privileged whiny softcocks that are today's berleys, indos, gscos etc
Supafreak wrote:sypkan wrote:plrase don't try and tell me mundine's concern for his people is not genuine...
So if wazza has been so involved and concerned why hasn’t there been better results ? that’s the questions the media should be asking. JP wants an audit into the spending, great idea let’s look at the last 10 years . https://x.com/ronnisalt/status/1713348880941855174?s=46&t=5RczxwAfzXe7hK.... https://x.com/tweet_frankie/status/1713355245764628942?s=46&t=5RczxwAfzX...
as peter garrett found out...
you can only really work within the system we have... unforunately, with all the compromise and tempering that comes with that...
I think it was mundine that said...
'...i realised you can only do so much from outside the tent...'
you can bag him as a compromising 'coconut' if you wish
or you can appreciate his genuine concerns and efforts within the system...
both in labor and the coalition!
the guys a pragmatist
I'll take pragmatism over nutty ideologues anyday!
nutty ideologues whose only goal seems to be to tear the whole fucking thing down... in seach of some long passed mystical utopia...
idealism is good... but...
Yeh, maybe give it a couple of days, IB.
harrycoopr wrote:sypkan wrote:harrycoopr wrote:So the breakdown was 40-60% ... that would be right. In 67 it was 90% with bipartisanship... that's 10% of the racist/haters accounted for. Take 10% racist/haters off the 60% leaves the conservative 50%.
That's about right... the reason Coalition govts get in... It's only when this cohort sees the absolute corrupt rubbish they've voted in (such as the last lot of bandits) that they'll vote for Alp. Australia is a conservative country and, in general, people are wary/scared of change. That's why progressive politics is generally resisted. This should change once our kids grow up... they can see the catastrophes of climate change, they will learn of Australia's deeply racist past (WAP)... They will learn the necessity of valuing the environment. I'm an optimist.
As for the local crew... I would say about 60% are racist/stupid/gullible/ignorant... so that seems about right.you're whole premise is contemporary 'progresive politics' isn't part of the problem...
broken
again...
irredeemable
(you)
That's why the last corrupt lot got definitively turfed out on their arses
Look to yrself dickbrand
and rightly so...
ALL corruption should be shone on and challenged
and that's the difference between you and me winnie...
ALL!
possibly the only difference... I grew out of my 14 year old girl idealism...
sypkan wrote:'woke'
'fascists'
'homosexuals'
haha
https://twitter.com/MrMennoTweets/status/1712935465525936480
call out your bitches... before it is too late!
Geez watched 30 seconds of that. Not woke enough to watch more. :-)
sypkan wrote:harrycoopr wrote:sypkan wrote:harrycoopr wrote:So the breakdown was 40-60% ... that would be right. In 67 it was 90% with bipartisanship... that's 10% of the racist/haters accounted for. Take 10% racist/haters off the 60% leaves the conservative 50%.
That's about right... the reason Coalition govts get in... It's only when this cohort sees the absolute corrupt rubbish they've voted in (such as the last lot of bandits) that they'll vote for Alp. Australia is a conservative country and, in general, people are wary/scared of change. That's why progressive politics is generally resisted. This should change once our kids grow up... they can see the catastrophes of climate change, they will learn of Australia's deeply racist past (WAP)... They will learn the necessity of valuing the environment. I'm an optimist.
As for the local crew... I would say about 60% are racist/stupid/gullible/ignorant... so that seems about right.you're whole premise is contemporary 'progresive politics' isn't part of the problem...
broken
again...
irredeemable
(you)
That's why the last corrupt lot got definitively turfed out on their arses
Look to yrself dickbrandand rightly so...
ALL corruption should be shone on and challenged
and that's the difference between you and me winnie...
ALL!
possibly the only difference... I grew out of my 14 year old girl idealism...
Sorry dickbrand... fail to see any idealism on my part. Just interested in justice... for ALL.
And btw...u sure you've grown out of yr girliness?
Supafreak wrote:sypkan wrote:andy-mac wrote:sypkan wrote:andy-mac wrote:And if you think Dutton is now going to step up to help FNP's, I've got a cheap bridge for sale.
Only positive I can see is that the electorates Dutton needs to be electable all voted Yes.
LNP brand toxic in their traditional areas and where they need votes.I don't...
dutton has nothing but bile
and, but... he influenced no one!
yes, he could've gone bipartisan...
but labor made no effort to bridge the gap
none whatsoever
they also refused to meet the blak sovereign movement...
flatly refused, many offers...
own goals all round
It was not Labor's policy. It was an election promise before they gained power.
The wreckers wrecked it. Yep Labor could have run it better, but easier to tear down than build.
Anyway it's done, but reckon this lefty woke journo nails it.https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/commentisfree/2023/oct/14/alb...
yep agree with all...
except the lack of empathy part... it's true for certain sections of the community... but...
'...It will require a new generation of Indigenous leadership to pick up the pieces of this failure...'
yep
that's what is needed!!
so so much...
people won't listen to jp... they're 'triggered' ...instantaneously...
so I urge you to listen to little hardnut kuarna girl on that qanda episode...
'aboriginal leadership needs a good clean out'
'need some new blood'
the voice was only ever going to empower the old guard
the crew that got us to this point... with all the corruption and cover up that comes wih em...
look at the history of some commentators on here, they take any criticism as attack... and attack back...
they don't believe in reform, or that any trasnparancy is needed, they cannot distinguish between heartfelt constructive criticism and 'racism'
all they do is frown...
frown, slur, and belittle...
the whole blackfella land council, NGO mega-complex needs reform
needs!!!
a shining ray of sunshine...
all power to jp and am... and little hardnut kuarna girl...
it's gonna hurt, but little will change without it...
Tell me how the voice would only empower the old guard . The design put forward by the yes campaign was for community elected representatives not government appointed ones . The LNP are all for a voice but only want JPs voice , why do you think that might be ?
dude... it's their pet project!
theirs!!
same old cats that have been there eons...
I don't hate on em like some do
but fresh blood and new ideas are good
"...The design put forward by the yes campaign was for community elected representatives not government appointed ones..."
yeh, and look how that is done...
how it has been done for eons
you've been around long enough - and been close enough to village life (im assuming) - to see how power is entenched
the voting patterns of remote communities is gonna be most interesting... already seeing signs...
and, the latest poll... 59% support amongst indigenous crew...
that's some pretty significant numbers!
especially when you consider many truly would have nothing to lose from the proposal...
literally nothing to lose
except their 'voice' maybe...
harrycoopr wrote:burleigh wrote:harrycoopr wrote:@ #boycottindo "Well if Aboriginal people were left to be and live like they had for thousands of years they still would be dying at 40."
My god... this guy's stupidity just keeps on truckin'We saw plenty of disgusting tactics from the Yes campaign. Spitting middle aged women, gimps wearing dog masks in public, Briggs labelling everyone racists that didnt agree with his sellout views. Ray martin, the rainbow brigade asking for their own voice, The harrys abusing anyone that didn't agree. The list goes on.
Is that all you can think of fishfood? You're on #boycottindo's truck of stupidity, ain't ya dumbo.
Anthropology 101 will teach u thickheads that comparatively blackfellas were living a MUCH healthier AND longer life at the precolonial time than Europeans. They worked less for their food, had more time for their cultural/spiritual pursuits and I imagine were much happier than their peasant counterparts (soon to be invaders/dispossessors). Yes it would've been tough living in the bush but that's why they're so resilient... not like the privileged whiny softcocks that are today's berleys, indos, gscos etc
Edit: Commendable words Harry. So true.. It’s a given that they lived in a utopian paradise, they had things very well organised and they’re movements regulated according to the seasons conditions, winter storms, summer sunshine.
Anyone even hinting at the suggestion they are better off now because of the industrial revolution and the colonial occupation may think that’s the case but it cannot be right.
That form of thinking is either ill-informed of how they ‘lived the life’, or have prejudiced, bigoted and or vested interests, they cannot be that dumb or antagonistic, sorry.
. https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/oct/15/jacinta-nampijinp.... AEC responds after Jacinta Nampijinpa Price questions ‘conduct’ in Indigenous communities that voted yes . ……….when was the last time JP stepped foot into a remote community ? This next election is going to have a certain ring about it .
"...Sorry dickbrand... fail to see any idealism on my part. Just interested in justice... for ALL.
And btw...u sure you've grown out of yr girliness?..."
nah, still got a bit of benchong...
sypkan wrote:https://twitter.com/MrMennoTweets/status/1712935465525936480
call out your bitches... before it is too late!
Hey gsco, while you have your big pinboard set up (so the neighbours can see what a beautiful mind you have, and what academia and the private sector missed out on) could you use your bits of string and flag toothpicks to try to work out a really serious concern: why does this bewildering video^^ have the same transitional music the WSL uses?
FNP prior to colonisation had a pretty good life.
But there was quite a lot of ritualised conflict between tribes and payback type conflct. Wholesale slaughter of other tribes did not seem to occur. Stick to your territory, respect the "rules", kept conflict at a minimum. Early historical accounts suggest that lots of fights were over women.
I have a book on this guys life:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcisse_Pelletier
"He was abandoned in 1858 at the age of 14 on the Cape York Peninsula, in Australia, during the dry season (late September or early October). He was discovered and rescued by an Aboriginal family and went on to live with the Uutaalnganu. They adopted Narcisse who they named Amglo, for the next 17 years, until he was found by the crew of the John Bell on 11 April 1875."
He did not want to be rescued. He fully settled into tribal life and was never happy back in France.
Cook observed tribes having an easy happy life compared to his sailors sweating all day repairing his ship.
Another 10,000 years left alone might have been good but was never going to happen.
One of the major colonising powers was going to arrive and colonise at some point with all that entails. They all could be brutal and by the time Australia was settled they had become experienced at doing rapid colonisation through dispossession, disease and often murder. For example, it was sort of all over in South Australia in 30 years (control the water holes - for farming - in a dry country destroyed their food sources). Australia was ideal for sheep and cattle which allowed fast expansion and required huge land expanses. Whereas Brazil was a hard slog through jungle and with a climate that led to disease.
Sad and sorry tales.
Was Britain the best of many bad colonising scenarios? Probably early on given what we know of Spain, Portugal and the Dutch. But debatable. No good options.
Long term though. the British colonies around the world seem to have prospered far more than those of Spain, Portugul etc. There is a former spanish colony in central America that was initially a British Colony which still wishes a century later that they had stayed under British rule. Argentina has always struggled.
The legal, cultural and economic system from Britain has inbuilt advantages that spill over to all citizens to some degree in terms of stability and wealth.
A silver lining? I would say so, looking at the long term bigger picture. However, today living in the here and now for disadvantaged FNP, that would often mean little.
But at some point the past has to be seen as that and not dwelled on forever.
India was invaded something like 30 times. Could that all be reconciled fairly and justly?
it is concerning basesix, well spotted...what's your theory..??
meanwhile, some great commentary by Quadrant Magazine:
"The referendum result wasn’t a defeat for Constitutional recognition of indigenous peoples, or for the aspirations of indigenous Australians. It was a defeat for the particular, poorly drafted, over-expansive proposed amendment that was put forward by Australia’s indigenous elite. And it was a defeat for a political class that assumed it could bully the rest of the electorate into submission.
"The sense of absolute entitlement exhibited by the Yes campaign was palpable—and repulsive. They did little to hide the fact that they considered all opposition to the Voice to be motivated by ignorance, ill-will, or outright racism. Yes campaigners can only interpret their resounding defeat at the polls to mean that they live in a country that exhibits widespread hatred for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.
"Unfortunately, the highly-educated urban professionals who form the core of the Yes vote believe not only that their preferred solutions are the correct ones, but that theirs are the only moral ones. They openly disdain the opinions of those who live outside the urban cores of the capital cities, who lack advanced university degrees, or who are too world-wise (read: elderly) to be fooled by facile quick-fix policy rhetoric."
Edit: and the AFR:
Australians didn’t want a new, black elite
The Voice would have created a new, black elite, which may explain why white elites were in favour.
AFR wrote:A paradox of the 45th referendum is that it failed because those who have power – leaders in politics, business, the law and academia – believed they could deploy it to help a group which, in aggregate, is profoundly powerless.
The failure of the Voice represented a backlash against elite influence. The proof can be seen in the electoral map: rich seats voted Yes; poor seats were opposed, including those with big Indigenous populations, which are, of course, the people whose lives Australians were told would improve if they were recognised in the Constitution.
The Northern Territory’s Lingiari, the federal seat with the highest proportion of Aboriginal residents, voted 58 per cent against. In the far-north Queensland seat of Leichhardt, the traditional hunting grounds of Indigenous leader and Voice advocate Noel Pearson, the No vote was 66 per cent.
All three seats in the ACT – where bureaucratic expansion is celebrated – voted in favour. The electorate of Sydney, where Alan Joyce lived when he was Qantas Airways chief executive, amassing intergenerational wealth, voted 71 per cent Yes.
Qantas’ support for the referendum may have been the zenith of elite-Voice arrogance. The popularly resented company appeared to have traded its support for commercial gain, at the cost of customers, including Indigenous flyers, who are repeatedly acknowledged when a Qantas aircraft lands in Australia.
Maybe, like the rest of us struggling with rising prices for food, energy and housing, they would just prefer cheaper flights to Europe?
Many supporters of a constitutionally enshrined, state-funded lobbying organisation blame failure on the leader of the opposition, Peter Dutton. They argued he had a moral obligation to support the policy, even if 60 per cent of Australians might have opposed it, which they did.
“The big winners of this campaign are racism and misinformation,” wrote Indigenous reporter Lorena Allam in The Guardian.
Elite woke status
In the real world, policy responsibility lies with the sponsor. Prime Minister Anthony Albanese could have held a constitutional convention to choose a popularly supported model. The Irish found such democratic exercises help make voters feel comfortable with big changes, including same-sex marriage.
Voters’ anti-elitism isn’t an Australian phenomenon. In the US, Donald Trump continues to be regarded as a formidable contender for the presidency, despite the four criminal charges against him.
In New Zealand, on Saturday, the Labour Party suffered what could be a 50 per cent drop from the 2020 election, when it was led by Jacinda Ardern, whose elite woke status is demonstrated by her three Harvard University fellowships.
In Australia, the Voice would have created a new, black elite, which may explain why white elites were so supportive; it is a model of power they understand.
How it would have got more kids to school in the Kimberley, stopped street fights in Alice Springs, or reduced the 13 per cent Indigenous diabetes rate was never explained.
Because, as most Australians feared, it wouldn’t.
harrycoopr wrote:burleigh wrote:harrycoopr wrote:@ #boycottindo "Well if Aboriginal people were left to be and live like they had for thousands of years they still would be dying at 40."
My god... this guy's stupidity just keeps on truckin'We saw plenty of disgusting tactics from the Yes campaign. Spitting middle aged women, gimps wearing dog masks in public, Briggs labelling everyone racists that didnt agree with his sellout views. Ray martin, the rainbow brigade asking for their own voice, The harrys abusing anyone that didn't agree. The list goes on.
Is that all you can think of fishfood? You're on #boycottindo's truck of stupidity, ain't ya dumbo.
Anthropology 101 will teach u thickheads that comparatively blackfellas were living a MUCH healthier AND longer life at the precolonial time than Europeans. They worked less for their food, had more time for their cultural/spiritual pursuits and I imagine were much happier than their peasant counterparts (soon to be invaders/dispossessors). Yes it would've been tough living in the bush but that's why they're so resilient... not like the privileged whiny softcocks that are today's berleys, indos, gscos etc
What the fuck are you on about Winnie? When did i ever suggest or even hint at this?
Get off the beers champ, you're making a fool of yourself....... AGAIN
careful who you frown, slur, and belittle...
you might just lose the lot!
Close to 80% of Labor federal seats voted No. Remove the ACT and Labor/Greens contest seats and that number climbs to 90%.
— Kos Samaras (@KosSamaras) October 15, 2023
These numbers may get worse with one or two seats which a line ball in front on the Yes vote.
For anyone interested https://www.abc.net.au/news/elections/referendum/2023/results?filter=all...
I'll leave the afore-asked question with you, @gsco, it is all a bit beyond me, the world is a rather confusing place, and the bits that are complex in a way that I have no understanding of, are best left to those that do. Re the Quadrant and AFR quotes: why is that great commentary? Seems kinda interesting, but then theories always are, though invariably say more about the theorists than the world. Probably a small part of the truth lies in most things. Do the quotes fit your theories?
1. Heavily indigenous booths in Qld have voted yes as follows: Palm Island 75%, Thursday Island 74%, Lockhart River 66%, Pormpuraaw 56%.
2. .In the NT, booths managed by the remote mobile teams consisting of a higher proportion of Indigenous Australians returned a Yes of 71.9%..The rest of the NT was 32.6%.
3. More analysis need, but it's clear Indigenous support is overwhelmingly Yes. Don't believe the lies.
4. Preliminary analysis In Bob Katter's seat of Kennedy, shows polling booths with a catchment of more than 50% Indigenous Australians returned a Yes of 69.5%. The rest of Kennedy returned a Yes of 18.5%.
5. It seems that the ~80% figure of Indigenous support was right
All the voting data is availablhttps://x.com/tracywesterman/status/1713407180874138095?s=46&t=5RczxwAfz.... https://tallyroom.aec.gov.au/ReferendumNationalResults-29581.htm. Price became the Trojan Horse many white Australians could latch onto to justify their No position yet she was also strongly rejected in these remote communities in her 2019 Fed election defeat. Just another layer of the foul duplicity of the No con job https://x.com/oldschooltiesir/status/1713421980660383903?s=46&t=5RczxwAf...
Supafreak wrote:1. Heavily indigenous booths in Qld have voted yes as follows: Palm Island 75%, Thursday Island 74%, Lockhart River 66%, Pormpuraaw 56%.
2. .In the NT, booths managed by the remote mobile teams consisting of a higher proportion of Indigenous Australians returned a Yes of 71.9%..The rest of the NT was 32.6%.
3. More analysis need, but it's clear Indigenous support is overwhelmingly Yes. Don't believe the lies.
4. Preliminary analysis In Bob Katter's seat of Kennedy, shows polling booths with a catchment of more than 50% Indigenous Australians returned a Yes of 69.5%. The rest of Kennedy returned a Yes of 18.5%.
5. It seems that the ~80% figure of Indigenous support was rightAll the voting data is availablhttps://x.com/tracywesterman/status/1713407180874138095?s=46&t=5RczxwAfz.... https://tallyroom.aec.gov.au/ReferendumNationalResults-29581.htm
Dont believe the lies...... yet the 80% poll that Yes23 used was clearly a lie.
frog wrote:FNP prior to colonisation had a pretty good life.
But there was quite a lot of ritualised conflict between tribes and payback type conflct. Wholesale slaughter of other tribes did not seem to occur. Stick to your territory, respect the "rules", kept conflict at a minimum. Early historical accounts suggest that lots of fights were over women.
I have a book on this guys life:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcisse_Pelletier
"He was abandoned in 1858 at the age of 14 on the Cape York Peninsula, in Australia, during the dry season (late September or early October). He was discovered and rescued by an Aboriginal family and went on to live with the Uutaalnganu. They adopted Narcisse who they named Amglo, for the next 17 years, until he was found by the crew of the John Bell on 11 April 1875."
He did not want to be rescued. He fully settled into tribal life and was never happy back in France.
Cook observed tribes having an easy happy life compared to his sailors sweating all day repairing his ship.
Another 10,000 years left alone might have been good but was never going to happen.
One of the major colonising powers was going to arrive and colonise at some point with all that entails. They all could be brutal and by the time Australia was settled they had become experienced at doing rapid colonisation through dispossession, disease and often murder. For example, it was sort of all over in South Australia in 30 years (control the water holes - for farming - in a dry country destroyed their food sources). Australia was ideal for sheep and cattle which allowed fast expansion and required huge land expanses. Whereas Brazil was a hard slog through jungle and with a climate that led to disease.
Sad and sorry tales.
Was Britain the best of many bad colonising scenarios? Probably early on given what we know of Spain, Portugal and the Dutch. But debatable. No good options.
Long term though. the British colonies around the world seem to have prospered far more than those of Spain, Portugul etc. There is a former spanish colony in central America that was initially a British Colony which still wishes a century later that they had stayed under British rule. Argentina has always struggled.
The legal, cultural and economic system from Britain has inbuilt advantages that spill over to all citizens to some degree in terms of stability and wealth.
A silver lining? I would say so, looking at the long term bigger picture. However, today living in the here and now for disadvantaged FNP, that would often mean little.
But at some point the past has to be seen as that and not dwelled on forever.
India was invaded something like 30 times. Could that all be reconciled fairly and justly?
It's not about dwelling on it forever... and it definitely wasn't a utopia. It's about knowing what went before, what then happened re colonialism, and where we're at now... and where we're going. If you watch early anthropology films no one was fat... no one. Everyone was slim and fit, maybe a little dusty. Once rounded into missions etc once mobile people became sedentary... and fat foods produced fat people (generally speaking of course)... eventually people wanted to go back to their countries, get away from whiteys bad influences... homelands started, mental and physical health improved then LNP govts kept trying to end this movement... too costly... get em all back into one centralised hub... Now blackfellas said they wanted a voice...Sorry peeps, whitey says No. Future? Can't wait to see all the rightwhiteys on here spark up again when Treaty time comes a knockin... Ewwww, we want One Nation... One Nation indeed!
Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x
The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.
Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.
Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.
The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.
Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??
Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28
References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28