The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

bluediamond started the topic in

Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

truebluebasher Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 2:15am

*World News
{ Australia Say No to Indigenous Rights }
{ Australian's Say No to Indigenous Rights }
[ Australia Say No to Referendum on Human Rights ]
{ Australia Votes against recognizing Indigenous Population }
[ Australia Rejects Greater Rights for Indigenous ]
{ Crushing Indigenous Hopes }
[ Major Setback for Country ]
{ Blow to Aboriginal Australians }
[ Inflict Lasting Damage on First Nation ]
{ Major Setback for Reconciliation } #1 Syndicated Headline
{ Major setback to Country's efforts for reconciliation with it's First Peoples }
{ Australian Voters Reject greater Indigenous Rights }...Country's Brexit Moment
{ Australia say No to more say for Indigenous People }
{ Defeat will be seen as a Setback to ongoing struggle for Reconciliation }
{ Heartbreaking Result }
{ Why did Australia Vote NO }

Murdoch WTF.
Doomsday Times 2023 : Bumper Edition!
[{ Australia's Global Reputation now at risk after inconceivable outcome }] (Kaboom!)
Strewth!...That is shit hot next level Rupert!
That should teach them foreign bastards not to fuck with us Aussie Shit Stirrers!
.............................................................................................................................................................................................
Ambassador Rudd Apologizes for taking backward hyper-leaps in The Human Race
.............................................................................................................................................................................................
.
*News that 60% of Australians get spoon fed.

Age : "No Vote Wins!" [ You Lose more than ya Win ]

(Spoiler Alert)
ABC : Voice Vote Defeated before WA get to waste their Vote again! {#@%!}

AFR : Dutto says defeat of the Voice is good for our Country
Australian : Voice Reffo result Heralds New Era says Jacinta Price!

Breaking News...
Daily Mail : xxx[#]// Voters call for Jacinta Price to Lead the Opposition \\[#]xxx

Sky News : Dutto demands Albo Apologize (Like hurry up...Poll is Ticking!)
Herald Sun : Albo should Quit after Catastrophic Failure (Bros before Hos!)

News : Cricketers offered Voice Counselling
smh : So what do I say to my Kids!

[ Naplan Brain Strain Covid Test ] ... How ya like me now!

Island Bay Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 4:26am

Good morning, Australia, and SN crew.

I hope that people can become friends again, or at least friendly, and the divisions start to heal. We've been through a very angry and divisive period over here, and it's been sad to see the same happen to Aus - but very obvious from a distance.

I've made myself scarce on SN the last few months, as (parts of) it became an increasingly nasty place. Here's hoping for better times and a return to being good fair-minded Aussies.

All the best.

gsco Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 7:14am

Thanks IB and I hope so too.

But the exact opposite is already happening and is only going to get worse.

This is the end of innocent Australia.

This is Australia's Trump moment.

This is the beginning of a degenerate, decayed, polarised and divided Australia internally at war with itself a-la US politics, culture, academia and media identity politics and culture wars, white-anting itself from the inside out.

This is when the progressive left and its populist identity politics and social justice activism, fuelled and indeed intoxicated by its western Marxism driven critical race theory ideology, finally splinters and disassociates itself from the rest of the population and reinforces its belief as morally and intellectually superior to, and condescendingly holds in contempt, the rest of the uneducated, ignorant, conspiracy theory believing, racist, fascist, barbarian peasant masses.

We are already seeing it happening right now, right in front of our eyes, with the Yes side now blaming the result on misinformation and lies, on the conservative right, on conspiracy theories, on racism and fascism, on ignorance and fear, etc: blaming the result on everything but itself and its new style of identity politics and culture wars.

And this is all evident in the voting patterns (where Indo was right yet again), showing that the Yes vote was concentrated in the inner city.

This is when the new age progressive left becomes completely rabid and militant and turns on the people, holding them in contempt. It's when the progressive left no longer respects, believes in and listens to the people, but instead tries to divert and derail the democratic process and freedom of speech and tries to enforce and oppress its beliefs on the people due to its conclusion that the people clearly cannot be trusted to make the correct intelligent, well informed decisions for the nation.

It's the moment Australia becomes what the US has become.

basesix Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 7:03am

Thanks IB, it all seems fine. Just went for a coffee and people were discussing it, from both sides. It is a chance for real growth, and a wider awareness of vulnerable people. But Aussies being Aussies, getting along with each other will be front and centre now. I'm sure there will be doom and gloomers online, trying to use the moment, but they probably just need to get out of the house more.

burleigh Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 7:05am

I'm really shocked that paying c grade celebs to write yes on their hand and post it to social media with the exact same post description didn't work.

Im really shocked that Briggs labelling every no voter a racist didnt work

I'm really shocked that yes campaigners spitting on people didn't work

I'm really shocked that asking people to vote on a constitutional change with zero information didn't work

Australia will no longer be made fools of like the Governent did with Covid. The lying weasles in govenment are no longer trusted.

wax24 Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 7:24am

gsco….. the Others did it, hey?

i asked you to look in the mirror awhile back.

get on it.

for yourself, first and foremost.

(hint… the answers worthwhile there come from within. not without.)

i told you that you’d selected an ecosystem that behaves precisely as what you condemn.

not that the Others don’t…

but you only have providence over YOU.

Not any of Them.

Get on It, Gsco.

become a part of the solutions.

And stop dividing.

frog Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 8:41am

Anthony Albanese has said for months and months:
- nothing has worked
- no alternative to the Voice
- it is the last chance to make change (tearing up)
- no will mean no change, no improvement

Then suddenly last night he looks deep in his back pocket and finds the truth that he had misplaced for so long.

He vows to forge a new way forward to close the gap in life outcomes without The Voice.

At the core of the Yes campaign was the highly emotionally manipulative message that this was an all or nothing last roll of the dice. To vote no was to deny FNP a good future.

Load em up with guilt. Tell a big porky as it is for a good cause. That should do the trick was the unspoken strategy.

Albo just admitted that this core message was misinformation. He always knew there are other ways.

He was not alone.

ABC talk show hosts would always leave the "last hope " comment by all manner of talking heads unchallenged.

Now hope is back on the table. That is good.

However, it is now mixed with corrosive doubt as so many experts have said that hope was lost without the Voice for so long.

FNP should be furious that they were put under such a glaring spotlight and all their problems discussed so publicly, for so long, by such a flawed Yes campaign.

Just watch the campaign leadership and media synchophants dodge and weave and finger point to deflect all blame onto others. Today's headlines in many papers load on more guilt and perpetuate the "no hope" message "What do I tell my children?". Give it a rest.

However, most Australians know who told the biggest porkies. Either intellectually or in their gut.

Our bullshit detectors are well honed these days.

Looking ahead, we should advocate for the hard grind of competence and good delivery of services, that is where good change comes from - not one big idea or spin.

And..... quit the no hope talk. It is very destructive and self fulfilling.

Supafreak Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 8:10am

Asked what he’ll now do for indigenous Australians Peter Dutton said that between now and the next election he’ll take advice from Jacinta Price and then formulate policies. One voice. One. Do you get the irony?

Asked what he’ll now do for indigenous Australians Peter Dutton said that between now and the next election he’ll take advice from Jacinta Price and then formulate policies. One voice. One. Do you get the irony?
— Barrie Cassidy (@barriecassidy) October 14, 2023

soggydog Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 8:54am

gsco wrote:
Thanks IB and I hope so too.

But the exact opposite is already happening and is only going to get worse.

This is the end of innocent Australia.

This is Australia's Trump moment.

This is the beginning of a degenerate, decayed, polarised and divided Australia internally at war with itself a-la US politics, culture, academia and media identity politics and culture wars, white-anting itself from the inside out.

This is when the progressive left and its populist identity politics and social justice activism, fuelled and indeed intoxicated by its western Marxism driven critical race theory ideology, finally splinters and disassociates itself from the rest of the population and reinforces its belief as morally and intellectually superior to, and condescendingly holds in contempt, the rest of the uneducated, ignorant, conspiracy theory believing, racist, fascist, barbarian peasant masses.

We are already seeing it happening right now, right in front of our eyes, with the Yes side now blaming the result on misinformation and lies, on the conservative right, on conspiracy theories, on racism and fascism, on ignorance and fear, etc: blaming the result on everything but itself and its new style of identity politics and culture wars.

And this is all evident in the voting patterns (where Indo was right yet again), showing that the Yes vote was concentrated in the inner city.

This is when the new age progressive left becomes completely rabid and militant and turns on the people, holding them in contempt. It's when the progressive left no longer respects, believes in and listens to the people, but instead tries to divert and derail the democratic process and freedom of speech and tries to enforce and oppress its beliefs on the people due to its conclusion that the people clearly cannot be trusted to make the correct intelligent, well informed decisions for the nation.

It's the moment Australia becomes what the US has become.

Come out to the country and talk to some over 60 white peoples and tell me racism , misinformation and unfounded fears didn’t contribute to this result. The concentration of voting patterns really should come as no surprise.
And yes we are heading towards a US style of politics, Dismissing the progressive left ias a bunch of identity politics obsessed marxists is more a tactic of right media I would say to create a point of division with which too distract from issues that will affect us all. So while your self and the likes of Indo are happy to punch down on those radical lefty’s remember when you’ve supported laws of suppression and surveillance over freedom and equality and the crazed protesters are gone our march towards a more oppressive society will be fully realised.

Identity politics is not a torch born by the left, it is a tool born and amplified by the establishment to keep the stupid angry and occupied. The same as the No campaign.

Most lefty’s are working for something better.

Pop Down Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 8:56am

I hope politicians learn from this episode !
Referendums are supposed to be NOT political !
They MUST have bipartisan support .
A proper process must be followed .
Changing or adding Foundation Stones has to be a EASY decision . The big decisions should always be the EASIEST to make . If unsure , do nothing . No F UPs.
The lines at my booth were long ( 1.5 hours ) . The mood was great ( as usual on an Election Day as the fight has finished and we are just waiting for the result ) .
I can't believe some of the stuff I seen happen in other places .
It was a referendum !!!
Not a political protest ! Too see volunteers of either Side be abused is an absolute disgrace .
An Australian referendum is when we are meant to come together .

soggydog Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 8:59am

Supafreak wrote:
Asked what he’ll now do for indigenous Australians Peter Dutton said that between now and the next election he’ll take advice from Jacinta Price and then formulate policies. One voice. One. Do you get the irony? https://twitter.com/barriecassidy/status/1713147525094637715?s=49&t=5Rcz...

She’s a shooting star of the conservatives (IPA) that’s for sure.

old-dog Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 9:06am

Imagine what could have been done with the billions wasted on Albo's ego legacy.
The most arrogant, clueless, out of touch Labor PM in history. He surrounds himself with Volvo driving elite woke lefties when he should go down to the pub and listen to what the real people are saying. About time he was shown the door. Cheers.

indo-dreaming Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 9:30am

gsco wrote:
It’s a great day for Australia, for all Australian people.

A day the Australian people spoke clearly against racial segregation, privilege and division.

A day we confirmed that there is no them and us, that we are all one peoples standing together in unity with a shared destiny.

A day we upheld the basic principles underlying our free way of life of equal opportunity, equal rights, and equal freedoms.

This referendum was not a vote on the establishment of a Voice body or on the recognition of Aboriginal Australians. It was just a vote on constitutional change.

A Voice body can be created in legislation and Aboriginal Australians can continue to be recognised and celebrated in many ways.

I, like all Australians, want and will continue to work towards better outcomes for Aboriginal Australians and this referendum does not change that or reflect otherwise.

100% agree

In the next week or so there will be many articles and evaluations and im sure most will read it totally wrong and not understand why No voters voted the way they did, and Crikey, Sat Paper, Guardian and others similar media will claim Australia is racist or something silly or blame it all on disinformation of which lets be real the Yes camp and government were just as guilty of, saying all kinds of misleading and conflicting things to get it up.

But i think the reality is much different I think most No voters are like me and you and voted against being officially divided in the constitution and having democracy in a sense divided and if the voice was in policy only most of us including me would support it or if basic recognition in the constitution only most would support it.

Personally im positive about the future and hope this is a turning point to being more as one and we move away from this divisive us and them, victim and oppressor mentality and while we give empathy and support that we understand that change most be made by people themselves and even expected.

Result wise the percentage to me is no surprise and i think about what i called a few pages back, and the Tassie result makes much more sense than polls indicated, Vic though i thought would be closer and maybe even be the only state that got up, ACT result not a surprise as basically just a city where dare i say out of touch people with wider Australia tend to be, so the Yes vote strong.

I think its scary to think what the result would have been if both campaign's had similar budgets, im sure the blow out would have been even bigger if the Yes camp didn't have 20 million worth of TV advertising that was extremely manipulative, no doubt it did swing some people possible mid to older women who still watch TV.

Although i think the endorsement by big business, sporting bodies, clubs, celebes, bands and even International celebs, possibly did more damage than good.

In a way i think democracy is also the winner, this and Clives campaign last election has shown that things cant be bought.

BTW. I also have to say i think our referendum system is very good, its good that to get up it doesn't just need to cross the 50% line and that we need the majority of states, it ensures that things with only very high public support Australia wide get up.

harrycoopr Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 9:17am

soggydog wrote:
Supafreak wrote:
Asked what he’ll now do for indigenous Australians Peter Dutton said that between now and the next election he’ll take advice from Jacinta Price and then formulate policies. One voice. One. Do you get the irony? https://twitter.com/barriecassidy/status/1713147525094637715?s=49&t=5Rcz...

She’s a shooting star of the conservatives (IPA) that’s for sure.

So Jacinta... How is it that colonisation has been good for Aboriginal people?
Please Explain...
Flame Out

harrycoopr Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 9:20am

old-dog wrote:
Imagine what could have been done with the billions wasted on Albo's ego legacy.
The most arrogant, clueless, out of touch Labor PM in history. He surrounds himself with Volvo driving elite woke lefties when he should go down to the pub and listen to what the real people are saying. About time he was shown the door. Cheers.

Hi Mr Hanson... how's Pauline these days,

harrycoopr Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 9:22am

If SpudDutton had gotten onboard with this it would have passed in all likelihood... Just this fact alone tells you why it failed.

harrycoopr Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 9:43am

gsco wrote:
Thanks IB and I hope so too.

But the exact opposite is already happening and is only going to get worse.

This is the end of innocent Australia.

This is Australia's Trump moment.

This is the beginning of a degenerate, decayed, polarised and divided Australia internally at war with itself a-la US politics, culture, academia and media identity politics and culture wars, white-anting itself from the inside out.

This is when the progressive left and its populist identity politics and social justice activism, fuelled and indeed intoxicated by its western Marxism driven critical race theory ideology, finally splinters and disassociates itself from the rest of the population and reinforces its belief as morally and intellectually superior to, and condescendingly holds in contempt, the rest of the uneducated, ignorant, conspiracy theory believing, racist, fascist, barbarian peasant masses.

We are already seeing it happening right now, right in front of our eyes, with the Yes side now blaming the result on misinformation and lies, on the conservative right, on conspiracy theories, on racism and fascism, on ignorance and fear, etc: blaming the result on everything but itself and its new style of identity politics and culture wars.

And this is all evident in the voting patterns (where Indo was right yet again), showing that the Yes vote was concentrated in the inner city.

This is when the new age progressive left becomes completely rabid and militant and turns on the people, holding them in contempt. It's when the progressive left no longer respects, believes in and listens to the people, but instead tries to divert and derail the democratic process and freedom of speech and tries to enforce and oppress its beliefs on the people due to its conclusion that the people clearly cannot be trusted to make the correct intelligent, well informed decisions for the nation.

It's the moment Australia becomes what the US has become.

"Innocent Australia"... like?????
Yr truly a nutjob...
Oh, sorry, a fascist nutjob

Pop Down Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 9:44am

Harry - it needed more than one person .
Referendums are NOT the forum to sort out F...en differences .
U young people should take the hint !
Australians have proved to me again , we don't like OUR Foundation Stones Opened , unless we ALL agree on a principle . The Details ( where Devil's hide ) need to be worked out !!!
To abuse this process is wrong !
Like the Monarchy ref . Only Canberra voted it in .
Surely , that tells us all that this was totally mishandled .
It meets my hurdle .

harrycoopr Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 9:54am

1967... The referendum was announced on 23 February 1967 by Prime Minister, Harold Holt. The 'Yes' campaign received bi-partisan support from the Coalition and Labor with the Prime Minister giving several speeches supporting the campaign.
(https://www.nla.gov.au/research-guides/the-1967-referendum/the-campaign#)
When the Constitution first came into being in 1901 there were only two parts that referred to the First Peoples of Australia: Section 51 (xxvi) gave the Commonwealth power to make laws with respect to ‘people of any race, other than the Aboriginal race in any state, for whom it was deemed necessary to make special laws’; and Section 127 provided that ‘in reckoning the numbers of people of the Commonwealth, or of a State or other part of the Commonwealth, aboriginal natives shall not be counted’. (https://aiatsis.gov.au/explore/1967-referendum)
Hence the need for bipartisanship. C'mon you rightywhiteys.. u can go all crazy "we told you so wokeys" "we're not racist" "f**ing marxists" whatevers but in the true light of day only one thing created divisiveness and failure to pass... and we all know what that was. Mr Chips and the NOalition's politiking.

basesix Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 9:56am

@pop, harrycoopr is an 84 year old with a young soul

Reform Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 9:59am

A little less word rabble but soulful healing tunes from those kind to the cause of enrichment and good.

Supafreak Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 9:59am

It will be very very interesting to read what policies JP comes up with for spud before next election seeing as colonisation has only benefited FNP , apparently they have never had it so good , you know , running water from a tap for starters .

sypkan Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 10:05am

Want to address prejudice? Drop your own prejudice.

The misinformation narrative, pushed out by some (not all) progressives is actually riddled with class prejudice.

Let’s be all honest with each other. Many on my side of politics don’t like working class people (a broad… https://t.co/aougsBYYjd
— Kos Samaras (@KosSamaras) October 14, 2023

Reform Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 10:05am

Sorry this one too.. hehe

sypkan Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 10:12am

'misinformation'

bullshit!!

plain old loathing and classism!

(and keeping the sticky difficult bits out of the debate...)

"...The Yes campaign could have merged the two common experiences between First Nations people and working class people. But it never wanted class to be part of the campaign.

Next time put some Labor people in charge of such a campaign and not Libs."

sypkan Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 10:13am

We have some data coming on this theory. It was not misinformation. It was the lack of information. Or to be more precise, an inability by Yes23 to communicate to a part of Australia that are being economically destroyed atm.

Great campaign for Smith Street Collingwood.… https://t.co/oMRvYo4pna
— Kos Samaras (@KosSamaras) October 14, 2023

indo-dreaming Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 10:17am

Supafreak wrote:
It will be very very interesting to read what policies JP comes up with for spud before next election seeing as colonisation has only benefited FNP , apparently they have never had it so good , you know , running water from a tap for starters .

And other irrelevant stuff like almost doubling average life expectancy.

Policy and other things can only be used as helping hand, the hard work needs to be done by people themselves, but its going to very hard to change around mindsets that many have been ingrained with.

Reform Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 10:15am

And this ..just too beautiful to cast aside

burleigh Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 10:23am

Agree Sypkan,
Australia is being destroyed economically. Millions of people are fucked financially but the government spend ALL this money on a vote with no substance.

gsco Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 10:33am

harrycoopr wrote:
gsco wrote:
Thanks IB and I hope so too.

But the exact opposite is already happening and is only going to get worse.

This is the end of innocent Australia.

This is Australia's Trump moment.

This is the beginning of a degenerate, decayed, polarised and divided Australia internally at war with itself a-la US politics, culture, academia and media identity politics and culture wars, white-anting itself from the inside out.

This is when the progressive left and its populist identity politics and social justice activism, fuelled and indeed intoxicated by its western Marxism driven critical race theory ideology, finally splinters and disassociates itself from the rest of the population and reinforces its belief as morally and intellectually superior to, and condescendingly holds in contempt, the rest of the uneducated, ignorant, conspiracy theory believing, racist, fascist, barbarian peasant masses.

We are already seeing it happening right now, right in front of our eyes, with the Yes side now blaming the result on misinformation and lies, on the conservative right, on conspiracy theories, on racism and fascism, on ignorance and fear, etc: blaming the result on everything but itself and its new style of identity politics and culture wars.

And this is all evident in the voting patterns (where Indo was right yet again), showing that the Yes vote was concentrated in the inner city.

This is when the new age progressive left becomes completely rabid and militant and turns on the people, holding them in contempt. It's when the progressive left no longer respects, believes in and listens to the people, but instead tries to divert and derail the democratic process and freedom of speech and tries to enforce and oppress its beliefs on the people due to its conclusion that the people clearly cannot be trusted to make the correct intelligent, well informed decisions for the nation.

It's the moment Australia becomes what the US has become.

"Innocent Australia"... like?????
Yr truly a nutjob...
Oh, sorry, a fascist nutjob

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't realise that what I mean by "innocent Australia" is that Australian politics, society and academia has not completely succumbed to identity politics, critical race theory and cultural warfare like the US has (but of course we are very close).

(Btw your reaction is the reason theYes campaign failed: holding those who have a different view to you in contempt, insulting and abusing them, and labelling them as racist and fascist (combined with a condescending and contemptuous campaign based on thinking the general public would get duped by a gigantic appeal to emotion and guilt). I'm one of the least racist and fascist people you'll meet.)

Now is a moment of choice for Australia. Either the progressive left doubles down in the critical race theory bunkers and takes things to the next level, and then the conservative right reacts to this by itself bunkering down, or hopefully the worm has turned in Aus/NZ politics and we move away from western Marxism:

Great day for Conservatism downunder. Australia votes against the idea that we should be treated differently because of racial background and Ardern quitting couldn't stop the Nationals taking power in NZ. 👏👏
— Tim Montgomerie 🇬🇧 (@montie) October 14, 2023

Some good news for a change, on the other side of the world:

- Australia had a referendum for a constitutional amendment that would've created a "Voice" to Parliament, which came with very little detail. It had the backing of the Australian federal government, every major…
— Spike Cohen (@RealSpikeCohen) October 14, 2023

Australia rejects the Indigenous Voice to Parliament, which would have enshrined racial identity politics in its constitutional makeup. A stunning blow to the politics of identity, made against the usual elite smears. Democracy is the solution to wokeness https://t.co/K37OfSAwSn
— Tom Slater (@Tom_Slater_) October 14, 2023

🗣 ‘The reason why I don’t like identity politics is because it forces people to look at themselves as tribes.’

🎙 Fraser Nelson in conversation with Kemi Badenoch at Tory conference pic.twitter.com/4kSLh6mCaO
— The Spectator (@spectator) October 14, 2023

Supafreak Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 10:27am

indo-dreaming wrote:
Supafreak wrote:
It will be very very interesting to read what policies JP comes up with for spud before next election seeing as colonisation has only benefited FNP , apparently they have never had it so good , you know , running water from a tap for starters .

And other irrelevant stuff like almost doubling average life expectancy.

Policy and other things can only be used as helping hand, the hard work needs to be done by people themselves, but its going to very hard to change around mindsets that many have been ingrained with.

@indo 100 + years ago most people around the world life expectancy was 40-45 so what’s your point ?

san Guine Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 10:32am

A win for:
1. The callous (don't care)
2. The jealous (they're getting something I don't have)
3. Negativism (if a government does something it MUST be wrong)
4. Constitutional conservatives (who make sweeping motherhood statements regarding the Constitution but don't actually understand its framing, content nor intent)
5. Dutton and the politics of division (Abbot 3.0)
6. Newscorp (lies, hyperbole and misinformation)
7. Racists
8. Conspiracists (But now you're in the majority is it still a conspiracy???)
9. 20% of the 4% indigenous people(0.8%) who don't want the Voice
10. Haters
11. Dullards
12. Those who opposed the Voice and talk big game about how we can do better for our FNP, but NEVER provide one example about how that will occur

These groups aren't mutually exclusive, so you can be in more groups than one...

sypkan Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 10:39am

arrogant.. out of touch...

and a campaign that was elitist, messy

...and liberal!

showed no pragmatism, and decidely vague...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https:...

clueless...

san Guine Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 10:45am

13. Arrogant and out of touch

Thanks had forgotten them

Island Bay Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 10:46am

Now I'm just shaking my head and laughing at my stupidly naive post from this morning.

sypkan Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 10:46am

san Guine wrote:
A win for:
1. The callous (don't care)
2. The jealous (they're getting something I don't have)
3. Negativism (if a government does something it MUST be wrong)
4. Constitutional conservatives (who make sweeping motherhood statements regarding the Constitution but don't actually understand its framing, content nor intent)
5. Dutton and the politics of division (Abbot 3.0)
6. Newscorp (lies, hyperbole and misinformation)
7. Racists
8. Conspiracists (But now you're in the majority is it still a conspiracy???)
9. 20% of the 4% indigenous people(0.8%) who don't want the Voice
10. Haters
11. Dullards
12. Those who opposed the Voice and talk big game about how we can do better for our FNP, but NEVER provide one example about how that will occur

These groups aren't mutually exclusive, so you can be in more groups than one...

you go rove!

(who was also clueless and full of shit)

sypkan Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 10:52am

"Now is a moment of choice for Australia. Either the progressive left doubles down in the critical race theory bunkers and takes things to the next level, and then the conservative right reacts to this by itself bunkering down, or hopefully the worm has turned in Aus/NZ politics and we move away from western Marxism:"

totally!

unfortunately, I think double down and bunker down is all they know...

basesix Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 10:53am

wasn't naïve, IB, just a bit of short-term defragging going on : )

indo-dreaming Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 11:00am

Supafreak wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
Supafreak wrote:
It will be very very interesting to read what policies JP comes up with for spud before next election seeing as colonisation has only benefited FNP , apparently they have never had it so good , you know , running water from a tap for starters .

And other irrelevant stuff like almost doubling average life expectancy.

Policy and other things can only be used as helping hand, the hard work needs to be done by people themselves, but its going to very hard to change around mindsets that many have been ingrained with.

@indo 100 + years ago most people around the world life expectancy was 40-45 so what’s your point ?

Well if Aboriginal people were left to be and live like they had for thousands of years they still would be dying at 40.

The modern world was brought here by colonialism, there is good reason why there is no Aboriginal movement to go back to living as they once did even with so much land under Aboriginal control, it's because colonialism and the modern world that comes with it has brought many positive's.

Obviously thats not to say there hasn't been negative's too as we know they are well documented and receive much attention, but the positives have not.

Even if you were to say the modern world was introduced without colonialism, whats more realistic to expect?

1. That Australia would be a developed peaceful democratic country with much opportunity

2. That Australia would be a developing country with high levels of poverty and similar issues seen today in indigenous communities.

IMHO its fair to expect it would be very similar to PNG including still being bent over for rich resource's.

Anyway i was trying to stay uncontroversial and a little sensitive today understanding how many are feeling, and the missus just got home so im off kids duties, so im going to go do some stuff and get off the PC :D

Supafreak Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 10:59am

frog Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 11:29am

SG
"12. Those who opposed the Voice and talk big game about how we can do better for our FNP, but NEVER provide one example about how that will occur"

Occasionally in interviews Linda Berney and others would roll out concrete examples of programs improving due to listening to grassroots feedback. They all seemed quite straightforward examples of how any service to any group or need in Australia should work with no magical Voice in the middle.

It is happening now. To deny this is to label every service provider as incompetent including the one founded by Noel Pearson.

At the core of all programs is the process of consult, understand, plan, do and then adjust through feedback and measurement. That is how things work. Usually feedback at a program level is best to adjust things - not at some big picture type level (such as the Voice).

But to sustain the campaign they had to sweep reality under the carpet and just give everyone a little peak every now at some example to show listening happens sometimes and helps (but very rarely, apparently, because there is no Voice).

Hardly truthful to normal practice or a way to give existing providers (including FNP run ones) any sense of worth or competence. Bluntly the message was "You are all doing a crap job." with occasional exceptions. How cynical and harmful is that for FNP?

Linda Berney talked the defeatist, small game and that all hope will be lost without a magic wand .... until last night when she rediscovered other options that existed all along. Credibility going forward?

sypkan Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 11:50am

you're dead right frog

indiginous input has been the norm for at least a decade or more

but for the YES campaign to maintain their 'all eggs in one basket' narrative, they had to present it as otherwise

'misinformaion' if you will...

southerraw is dead right about his little schtik regarding blending western education with aboriginal ways for better outcomes... I purposely didn't engage with him on this topic because i didn't want to undermine him... the truth is, up north, they been doing this for cosiderable amount of time, and a simple google of 'both ways' will show this to be true

there are plenty of other examples

the whole 'narrative' was based on hype and mis-truth

yet apparently 'misinformation' won the day...

social media is absolutely jam packed with well meaning people lamenting this supposed 'fact'

the ABC is getting slammed for spreading the 'misinformation' and 'lies', but there is never a solid exanple given... even when one is explicitly asked for...

never... nothing...

yes there was misinforation and lies out there, but it was never presented without challenge in the real media

it was reported, not presented...

an important distinction!

the YES campaign had a messy mesage, with conflicting 'truths', and constant damage control, as shown in the article above

this often descended into the need for blatant 'misinformation'

but...

apparently...

sypkan Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 11:36am

these constant cries of misinformation - then and now - just convey a message that NO voters and dumb and gullible...

stupid

when, it appears the opposite is often true

goofyfoot Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 11:37am

Island Bay wrote:
Now I'm just shaking my head and laughing at my stupidly naive post from this morning.

Stay in your lane IB!

harrycoopr Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 11:55am

sypkan wrote:
these constant cries of misinformation - then and now - just convey a message that NO voters and

when, it appears the opposite is often true

Haha... classic!! Didn't you see the interviews with No voters? DerpyDerp

harrycoopr Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 11:57am

@ #boycottindo "Well if Aboriginal people were left to be and live like they had for thousands of years they still would be dying at 40."
My god... this guy's stupidity just keeps on truckin'

Island Bay Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 12:07pm

goofyfoot wrote:
Island Bay wrote:
Now I'm just shaking my head and laughing at my stupidly naive post from this morning.

Stay in your lane IB!

The Slow Lane :-)

Reform Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 12:09pm

frog wrote:
SG
"12. Those who opposed the Voice and talk big game about how we can do better for our FNP, but NEVER provide one example about how that will occur"

Occasionally in interviews Linda Berney and others would roll out concrete examples of programs improving due to listening to grassroots feedback. They all seemed quite straightforward examples of how any service to any group or need in Australia should work with no magical Voice in the middle.

It is happening now. To deny this is to label every service provider as incompetent including the one founded by Noel Pearson.

At the core of all programs is the process of consult, understand, plan, do and then adjust through feedback and measurement. That is how things work. Usually feedback at a program level is best to adjust things - not at some big picture type level (such as the Voice).

But to sustain the campaign they had to sweep reality under the carpet and just give everyone a little peak every now at some example to show listening happens sometimes and helps (but very rarely, apparently, because there is no Voice).

Hardly truthful to normal practice or a way to give existing providers (including FNP run ones) any sense of worth or competence. Bluntly the message was "You are all doing a crap job." with occasional exceptions. How cynical and harmful is that for FNP?

Linda Berney talked the defeatist, small game and that all hope will be lost without a magic wand .... until last night when she rediscovered other options that existed all along. Credibility going forward?

Burney, not Berney...just saying!

sypkan Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 12:16pm

harrycoopr wrote:
sypkan wrote:
these constant cries of misinformation - then and now - just convey a message that NO voters and

when, it appears the opposite is often true

Haha... classic!! Didn't you see the interviews with No voters? DerpyDerp

I did...

bloody alarming to be honest

ugly

but, these morons would've voted NO anyway...

they are such a minority it is insignificant

grouping all NO voters with such a 'minority' helps nobody's cause

sypkan Sunday, 15 Oct 2023 at 12:12pm

plrase don't try and tell me mundine's concern for his people is not genuine...

Warren Mundine explodes at the Brisbane press gallery and good on him, well deserved.

"We had a vote tonight that said Australians want to get things done, wake up to yourselves and start asking real questions and making governments accountable!"@nyunggai #Referendum2023 #Media pic.twitter.com/Ohf5ilO5JD
— Timjbo 🇦🇺 (@Tim_jbo) October 14, 2023

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