The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Michael Adam wrote:Great campaign Haz. You surely changed heaps of minds…. the opposite way you were hoping. Peace.
Like I said... the dumbtards Maz
zenagain wrote:Indo, do us one favour though please. Don't gloat.
Humble in victory. Gracious in defeat.
Remember, there will be a lot of disappointed people out there tonight.
Btw, despite what others think, I think you played a pretty straight bat.
Yeah not planning too, it's the result i wanted and think is right for Australia, but in a weird way i feel a little sadness for others.
Cheers respect your opinion.
As do I Indo.
Good on you two.
Island Bay wrote:Good on you two.
Who did you want to win in NZ?
Looks like National party getting in yeah, i guess a bit of a push back to Covid maybe?
Anything but what we've had. New energy. Hard work.
indo-dreaming wrote:Yeah not planning too, it's the result i wanted and think is right for Australia, but in a weird way i feel a little sadness for others.
I'd imagine you're probably feeling a bit of sadness for our FNP. Whether you are a yes or a no voter, you can surely appreciate the immense challenges facing our FNP and also the toll this last few weeks/months has had on their communities.
I am personally very disappointed in the expected result and think a voice for FNP was better for Australia as a whole. I just hope that people can try and come together to support our FNP at this time. I hope we can all agree on that.
I look forward to what unravels over the coming weeks . In my opinion, Australia you’ve been conned. https://theklaxon.com.au/ztem-75/
Disappointing result but to be expected I guess.
zenagain wrote:As do I Indo.
You do know he’s so miserable he’ll never give you a reach around?
Supafreak wrote:I look forward to what unravels over the coming weeks . In my opinion, Australia you’ve been conned. https://theklaxon.com.au/ztem-75/
yeh, maybe Supa. Australia has always been ripe for the IP picking, rich country with low population, in charge of what goes down. I saw it as a kid, 2nd rung companies getting top title here for a while via market investment, Pepsi, Sega, Burger King, etc. Even bands like Matchbox 20 and Live, given enough daytime telly ads, could algorithm their way to success. Now if the elites of the elites have worked that out, and now we are metadata social media numpties.. well, blue sky limit.. maybe we all need tin hats... any vested interest, 2nd rung companies wanna invest?
Supafreak wrote:I look forward to what unravels over the coming weeks . In my opinion, Australia you’ve been conned. https://theklaxon.com.au/ztem-75/
All this is probably true but result seem to be a landslide No. I don’t think it can be fully attributed to these campaigns and especially Dutton who still remains a very unpopular figure.
;)
https://m.
&pp=ygUXVGhlIHBlb3BsZSBhcmUgcmV0YXJkZWQ%3D Jelly Flater wrote:;)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=De4_ZqMwuOg&pp=ygUXVGhlIHBlb3BsZSBhcmUgcmV...
Jelly, did you watch the whole doco series? That was a crazy story.
Gutted
No words.
@flollo
Yep, wild country, wacky stuff
I don't think you would either Guy.
So where does that leave us?
I'm sad for you Southern. I know this was very close to your heart, probs moreso than most. Just stay on your path. You may never get there but never forget, you're heading in the right direction.
@JF Hahahaha I’m in stitches. But it does raise a potential problem with elections. Especially in this age of social media disinformation.
Sad day for Australia.
I'm sorry.
glad you added the @JF, seeds, I thought you were just laughing at the ref results! So many good words get brought into SN usage (gritters being one: typo, call-out, justify, usege.. brilliant) like obfuscate. I just used numpties.. I reckon that was an adam12..?
Numpties is well established in my vocabulary
Ha ha! You can't go past the lexicon of Indo.
Albo's voice reflection speech just then was actually pretty spectacular. Me too a-m.
An embarrisingly sad day for Australia.
Fear and paranoia triumphant over compassion and virtue.
"poor fella my country"
It’s a great day for Australia, for all Australian people.
A day the Australian people spoke clearly against racial segregation, privilege and division.
A day we confirmed that there is no them and us, that we are all one peoples standing together in unity with a shared destiny.
A day we upheld the basic principles underlying our free way of life of equal opportunity, equal rights, and equal freedoms.
This referendum was not a vote on the establishment of a Voice body or on the recognition of Aboriginal Australians. It was just a vote on constitutional change.
A Voice body can be created in legislation and Aboriginal Australians can continue to be recognised and celebrated in many ways.
I, like all Australians, want and will continue to work towards better outcomes for Aboriginal Australians and this referendum does not change that or reflect otherwise.
I agree, but now we know where it stands @mattlock. The sand is blown off a dusty frieze, and people are looking at what is what. That is heartening: the first nation groups that are saying 'we are not a problem to be solved', the conservatives that wish-well and throw dollars, the useless leftists that know nothing, the useless righties that know nothing, the views on city/country/my-best-mate/regional aboriginal people. Seems all pretty real now.
Once the damage is looked at, a wonderous culture being thrust suddenly into a spotlight of hardly their choosing (faaark knows what that means to vulnerable people, my god) is at least addressed in part... maybe some good conversations will happen, steeped in reality and recognition.
(gsco, mate, you're as mad as a stick)
New heading.
'The Irrelevance of Reparations for Indigenous Australians for (imagined) Historical Injustices.
There.
Fixed it.
As Harry pointed out the Monarchy ref failed .
Both referendums asked Australians to change our Constitution , our Foundation Stones , without providing enough detail ( when , what and why ) imho .
Most Australians wanted our own head of state ( that's why a referendum gets called , not some 50/50 idea ) , BUT , wanted to know how our Head our State would be chosen/elected before agreeing .
SpudDutton and his greasy minions are the reason for the fail. It was always likely to fail without bipartisanship. I don't know where gsco gets his "equality" stuff from except some covert form of reverse racism... it would've still been about equality except that Aboriginal people were finally granted equality in the founding document. In fact the founding "document"in this country is what the Western Desert people call Tjukurpa (other names for other groups)... those founding stories and laws are 60k+ years old... not just 122.
Anyway i know that most Aussies are like my extended family... the stereotypical whitey aussie suburban footy fanatic "hard-working" grassroots common everybodies. I gave up on most of them years ago when every Xmas lunch as a young fella I'd listen to their blatantly racist bullshit amp up as they got more pissed. It's also the reason i keep pretty much to myself these days... so tired of those boring bbq get-togethers when the conversations start with "I'm not racist,but..."
Poor fella my country alright!
But don't despair...as mentioned in the commentaries tonight, there's a whole new crop of Aboriginal leadership now and issues have been shoved in the face of every Australian. As for Price, I'm looking forward to her explications on her colonisation theory... more laughs to come!
southernraw wrote:Gutted
No words.
Are you serious?
Great post @harrycpr. Pretty much sums up how i see and feel things.
Thanks mate.
harrycoopr wrote:Michael Adam wrote:Great campaign Haz. You surely changed heaps of minds…. the opposite way you were hoping. Peace.
Like I said... the dumbtards Maz
The Harrys of Australia had a huge part in the NO vote winning. Yet he's too dumb to see it
flollo wrote:Supafreak wrote:I look forward to what unravels over the coming weeks . In my opinion, Australia you’ve been conned. https://theklaxon.com.au/ztem-75/
All this is probably true but result seem to be a landslide No. I don’t think it can be fully attributed to these campaigns and especially Dutton who still remains a very unpopular figure.
totally
no one is listening to dutton
a lot of false attribution going on
mayo and co. rattling on about 'lies' and 'misinformation'
still...
with no examples or clarification ever entered into
seems that was the whole and only campaign stategy
and now the post mortem...
blame!
no 'growth' in that...
Can someone check on Briggs from A.B Original? He must be tired of labelling 59% of Australia racists
it is a hollow victory though...
(not that I wanted it)
I do feel for the YES crew
nothing is fixed
possibly a disaster averted...
but still much work to do, for everyone!
here's hoping for a real change!
My god that Dutton is a case! OMG Officer Peter, when you speak do you have to go into the hurtful details that is wounding to the ones who are afflicted from tonight’s results, where is your tact? This is not the standing of a man that is proud, that I want as a leader, let alone a leader of our country. And putting down Albo, Nah! Okay but Nah!
Dutton is doing exactly what he is accusing the Govt. of, being divisive, he and his people are masters of it! Why do they give him so much air time!
And JP stating “We are absolutely not a racist country” Spare us Jacinta!
Yes, it was called! David had the line rehearsed so he announced it within a millisecond of Anthony Greens prediction. At that stage the vote was somewhere in the 30% counted stage. Not sure how they know which side has won at that stage, or how that is determined?
But you know, there is optimism that the Yes representation was very solid, Very solid against a wave of disinformation that was odiously spread about by the No camp esp. LNP!
But ACT trumped it, NSW were gaining well into the 40%, QLD, and well that is QLD for you but Brisbane was over the 60% mark.
The YES side is strong, make no mistake it is a very well weighted vote and the FNP should take great solace from that. Even in my small way I will continue to do my bit of support for the advancement and promotion of the FNP. I have learned so much during this time just what an amazing people the Indigenous people of this land are. They have incredible knowledge, incomparable awareness of the earth, sun, air and water and how we relate to the cycles of life within the universe. That’s all we need for a place of peace and sustainability for ours and their survival, which includes our forested areas with the all the ecology that relies on it. I see optimism! A lot has been learned and more will follow. Cheers
Edit: Sypkan just summarised in less than 10 what I wanted to in half a book, Thanks Sypkan Cheers
burleigh wrote:Can someone check on Briggs from A.B Original? He must be tired of labelling 59% of Australia racists
some never tire of that shit
it's a choice, a vocation...
an identity
burleigh wrote:harrycoopr wrote:Michael Adam wrote:Great campaign Haz. You surely changed heaps of minds…. the opposite way you were hoping. Peace.
Like I said... the dumbtards Maz
The Harrys of Australia had a huge part in the NO vote winning. Yet he's too dumb to see it
Ah I see fishfood's back to his usual arsehole self... didn't take long
Reform - you make it sound like a Political Election ( we will get them next time ?)
Referendums are not supposed to be political .
A big mistake to think so imo .
Yay Australia. Ignorance, gullibility, fear, a victim mentality and a dash of racism won over hope. Great day.
gsco, I used to think you were educated and maybe even intelligent. The first part is probably undeniable, given you probably have a piece of paper from a place I worked at for a few decades. The second part has long flown the coup. You ditched your intelligence and a good deal of your education for belief.
I haven’t called you out for some of your egregious BS, didn’t want to inflame the debate here or anywhere else. Your trading of education and maybe even intelligence for the magic beans of belief was a terrible trade for you. I suspect you have years enough to rectify that terrible trade, but you can’t see it now and are unlikely to see it in the future.
You have been a fool. It’s a sad development.
Of course there are others here who have been much worse. I’m just picking on you for being that sad stereotype of a man growing older with a mind growing smaller. In spite of your education, which clearly stopped when your beliefs set in. As it does.
Enjoy living in fear and prejudice, it is its own reward.
Fucken numptey.
Good on you @reform.
Yep, now's a time to double down on the love, not the fear and anger.
Hard as it is to swallow that right now.
I took a walk today to a really remote place, right in the heart of coastal Noongar country.
Saw snakes, whales, lizards, birds, the place was in full flower, you could feel the energy of thousands upon thousands of years of integration with this land oozing out of it. You always can in most raw places in Australia. The swell was massive, 10foot plus and building, just slamming into these Teahupooespue rock ledges. A chance to feel and reflect upon what i knew was the inevitable.
This country and the people who care for it are resilient. It's another blow, upon many, it's the same kind of blow that they've been copping for the small period in history that they've had to adjust to the new visitors, but they have and will endure. They may not ask as nicely next time though.
What i have had confirmed is that politics is as ugly as it's ever been and getting worse, media manipulates to whatever end suits their needs, and social media is the cake that gets baked when all of that is mixed together.
This cake tastes like shit. That's the strongest words i'll use, because i can't be bothered getting angry and having that energy. It's just compassion for the Indigenous families, kids, older generation that woke up this morning, and had their hopes high finally for change that they've waited so long for....recogntion..only to have had that shut down, again. I can't imagine how gutted they're feeling right now.
Anyway, gonna spend some time reflecting. Cheers to all, good health and well wishes and sick waves.. No harm or suffering should ever come upon anyone.
Always was and always will be, Aboriginal land.
Pop Down wrote:Reform - you make it sound like a Political Election ( we will get them next time ?)
Referendums are not supposed to be political .
A big mistake to think so imo .
Thanks for your comment Pops, Your probably right but If the Politicians would stay out of it, I might too. But point taken I will reflect on, Cheers
Reform - I have watched all the episodes of Yes Minister , and Prime Minister , The Hallowmen and Utopia .
I hate all Politicians , but can't complain too much , as I wouldn't want the job .
I am really happy if they don't make any BIG F...k Up's .
The art of life - Don't make any big mistakes :))
southernraw wrote:Good on you @reform.
Yep, now's a time to double down on the love, not the fear and anger.
Hard as it is to swallow that right now.
I took a walk today to a really remote place, right in the heart of coastal Noongar country.
Saw snakes, whales, lizards, birds, the place was in full flower, you could feel the energy of thousands upon thousands of years of integration with this land oozing out of it. You always can in most raw places in Australia. The swell was massive, 10foot plus and building, just slamming into these Teahupooespue rock ledges. A chance to feel and reflect upon what i knew was the inevitable.
This country and the people who care for it are resilient. It's another blow, upon many, it's the same kind of blow that they've been copping for the small period in history that they've had to adjust to the new visitors, but they have and will endure. They may not ask as nicely next time though.
What i have had confirmed is that politics is as ugly as it's ever been and getting worse, media manipulates to whatever end suits their needs, and social media is the cake that gets baked when all of that is mixed together.
This cake tastes like shit. That's the strongest words i'll use, because i can't be bothered getting angry and having that energy. It's just compassion for the Indigenous families, kids, older generation that woke up this morning, and had their hopes high finally for change that they've waited so long for....recogntion..only to have had that shut down, again. I can't imagine how gutted they're feeling right now.
Anyway, gonna spend some time reflecting. Cheers to all, good health and well wishes and sick waves.. No harm or suffering should ever come upon anyone.
Always was and always will be, Aboriginal land.
That's healing right there Southern! Impactful adventure, the awareness and attentiveness, sentience, gratitude and awe of being alive in the powerful and enriched surrounding’s, That sounded so great esp with the huge swell, love it! Take much care and thank you!
@gsco: This referendum was not a vote on the establishment of a Voice body or on the recognition of Aboriginal Australians. It was just a vote on constitutional change.
Huh? Typically confused rhetoric just like every 2nd sentence or speech from the no camp, including the leaders of it, incredibly. All over the fucken shop.
So, from the no camp: confusion (deliberate or otherwise) , misinformation (deliberate), outright lies (deliberate), stupidity (unintentional) and angling for a political advantage (deliberate) won the day. And I didn't even mention blatant racism! (from Neo-nazi groups marching with No rallies right through to the silent, bog-standard racism quietly held by Joe Average). The flyers in my letterbox, the advertising I've seen from the No camp.. (from the likes of Hanson, Clive Palmer no less! ) contained all of the above. And it was so obvious!
Well done No winners. Something you can reflect back on over the years and feel proud about.
So little was asked of all Australians, it was just one of many things needing to be done with regards to recognition and closing the gap, and we couldn't even afford Indigenous Australians that.
Sorry but right now I'm in no mood to be all conciliatory and "let's work together" and gracious. For now I'm going to express the factual truth around the No campaign and No voters and call it and them out for what it is. Maybe after a cuppa and a good lie down I'll be conciliatory tomorrow. Maybe.
@southernraw: Good on you @reform.
Yep, now's a time to double down on the love, not the fear and anger.
Hard as it is to swallow that right now.
Nice post and sentiments SR. I will too.
Australians under 40 had never voted in a referendum .
Had dinner with my 2 daughters tonight , 19 and 22 .
Both had done their own research and understood both sides .
Like me , would not have listened to Dutton , Price or Albo .
Why would we ?
They voted Yes . Was very proud of them , again !
Both were sad and angry at how political the campaign had become .
This failed referendum has highlighted how politics has failed to work , again , to solve one of Australia's most important issues .
Hand passing problems is not what we do or expect .
We are NOT happy with this outcome or the entire , at times grubby , process .
Very unAustralian imo !!!
Australians want something done now !
This Land has been here for ages . FNP have been here 60k approx years , wonderful custodians ( not ownership , I thought ) .
A Treaty will be signed , one day .
Work has to start tomorrow .
Hopefully , all Australians will then be welcome to have custody of "This Great Southern Land ".
"Two things are infinite .
The Universe and human stupidity .
.....and I'm not sure about the universe ."
Albert Einstein
cheers @greebs. Great post and sentiments.
And thanks to you....after reading your post i was inspired to have a cuppa. Was just what was needed.
Noonook boorda djinang
Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x
The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.
Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.
Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.
The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.
Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??
Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28
References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28