The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

bluediamond started the topic in

Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

adam12 Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 6:50pm

@Indo
"Strangely it even seemed the world seemed more peaceful when Trump was in power, no matter what we all think of him he was a rare USA prime minister not to take USA into a new war."

I'm staying off these pages and this discussion and the reason in part are the fucking nongs trying to dominate it with stupid grade three commentary like Indo here.
He'd be a rare USA prime minister indeed you fucking numpty.
Because the USA don't have prime ministers.
But please continue enlightening the world with your "expert" commentary.
Fucking dill.
We've got Frog thinking decolonialism is self determination and holing up South Africa as some sort of argument against the Voice. We've got Sameaswas confusing secularism with the separation of powers and holding up secularism as one of the foundations of democracy (hint, it's not, and we are not secular, more like a pluralistic theocracy. The Christian God is mentioned in the constitution and our parliament preys to him), and now here's Indo, SN resident expert dullard, confusing American Presidents with Australian prime ministers.
It's a shit show of ill informed idiocy.
I'm out.

A Salty Dog Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 6:39pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
I doubt anyone could name six from either left or right.

But as much as Trump is a narcissist or worst it still seems he did a better job in many ways compared to Biden or even Obama

Strangely it even seemed the world seemed more peaceful when Trump was in power, no matter what we all think of him he was a rare USA prime minister not to take USA into a new war.

And many experts say Russia wouldn't have invaded Ukraine if Trump was still in power and this recent attack on Israel might not have even happened if Trump was in or at least Biden didnt help basically getting back into bed with Iran lifting sanctions Trump put on them releasing 6 billions dollars back to Iran.

Biden is even continuing Trumps key policy like building that wall.

"Joe Biden approves new section of border wall in south Texas to curb unauthorised immigration"

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-06/joe-biden-approves-new-section-of...

Trump was, is and will always be a social, emotional and intellectual infant.

harrycoopr Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 6:52pm

adam12 wrote:
@Indo
"Strangely it even seemed the world seemed more peaceful when Trump was in power, no matter what we all think of him he was a rare USA prime minister not to take USA into a new war."

I'm staying off these pages and this discussion and the reason in part are the fucking nongs trying to dominate it with stupid grade three commentary like Indo here.
He'd be a rare USA prime minister indeed you fucking numpty.
Because the USA don't have prime ministers.
But please continue enlightening the world with your "expert" commentary.
Fucking dill.

There's a reason indo's a Trumpian... it says SO much. And thus impossible to take anything he says seriously
#boycottindo

southernraw Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 6:55pm

adam12 wrote:
@Indo
"Strangely it even seemed the world seemed more peaceful when Trump was in power, no matter what we all think of him he was a rare USA prime minister not to take USA into a new war."

I'm staying off these pages and this discussion and the reason in part are the fucking nongs trying to dominate it with stupid grade three commentary like Indo here.
He'd be a rare USA prime minister indeed you fucking numpty.
Because the USA don't have prime ministers.
But please continue enlightening the world with your "expert" commentary.
Fucking dill.
We've got Frog thinking decolonialism is self determination and holing up South Africa as some sort of argument against the Voice. We've got Sameaswas confusing secularism with the separation of powers and holding up secularism as one of the foundations of democracy (hint, it's not, and we are not secular, more like a pluralistic theocracy. The Christian God is mentioned in the constitution and our parliament preys to him), and now here's Indo, SN resident expert dullard, confusing American Presidents with Australian prime ministers.
It's a shit show of ill informed idiocy.
I'm out.

Same mate. I get the feeling one over contributor actually thinks he's running a campaign and is getting ready to bust out the champagne. Some disturbing shit.

Supafreak Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 6:59pm

harrycoopr Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 7:17pm

southernraw wrote:
adam12 wrote:
@Indo
"Strangely it even seemed the world seemed more peaceful when Trump was in power, no matter what we all think of him he was a rare USA prime minister not to take USA into a new war."

I'm staying off these pages and this discussion and the reason in part are the fucking nongs trying to dominate it with stupid grade three commentary like Indo here.
He'd be a rare USA prime minister indeed you fucking numpty.
Because the USA don't have prime ministers.
But please continue enlightening the world with your "expert" commentary.
Fucking dill.
We've got Frog thinking decolonialism is self determination and holing up South Africa as some sort of argument against the Voice. We've got Sameaswas confusing secularism with the separation of powers and holding up secularism as one of the foundations of democracy (hint, it's not, and we are not secular, more like a pluralistic theocracy. The Christian God is mentioned in the constitution and our parliament preys to him), and now here's Indo, SN resident expert dullard, confusing American Presidents with Australian prime ministers.
It's a shit show of ill informed idiocy.
I'm out.

Same mate. I get the feeling one over contributor actually thinks he's running a campaign and is getting ready to bust out the champagne. Some disturbing shit.

But are we sure indo is not actually Tony 'Onion' Abbott?? He surfs after all...

adam12 Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 7:29pm

@harrycoopr "But are we sure indo is not actually Tony 'Onion' Abbott?? He surfs after all... "
Nah, Abbott is an idiot but not on the level of stupid Indo lives on.
I've thought gsco may be the onion eater with his obsession with the virtues of Western civilisation, straight out of the Ramsay Center all that. But he visits China and I know Tony likes to return from such trips with gifted Rolex watches, so maybe we need to ask him what's on his wrist, and is it a real one?

indo-dreaming Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 7:51pm

harrycoopr wrote:
adam12 wrote:
@Indo
"Strangely it even seemed the world seemed more peaceful when Trump was in power, no matter what we all think of him he was a rare USA prime minister not to take USA into a new war."

I'm staying off these pages and this discussion and the reason in part are the fucking nongs trying to dominate it with stupid grade three commentary like Indo here.
He'd be a rare USA prime minister indeed you fucking numpty.
Because the USA don't have prime ministers.
But please continue enlightening the world with your "expert" commentary.
Fucking dill.

There's a reason indo's a Trumpian... it says SO much. And thus impossible to take anything he says seriously
#boycottindo

Ha ha obviously i meant President not Prime minister, my head in this thread is in Aus not USA.

Anyway Harry id hate to disappoint you but im not a Trumpian, while i loved how Trump triggered the left and he was entertaining i was honestly a little scared when he was first elected, and then how he ended things really sucked such a spoilt brat.

And it blows my mind that with a population of 330 million the options in the USA were between Trump & Biden, Trump who lets face it is quite possibly a real sociopath and Biden that is 80 years old and literally isnt all there.

But if you put aside the names and the personalities and compared what Obama, Trump & Biden did or didnt do while there is pros and cons with each as bizarre as it is Trump didnt stack up too bad and is even possibly ahead in some areas like i pointed out.

Yeah so not a Trump fan as such but I am a big fan of De santis though.

Anyway we should get back to what the topic is about, we literally only have days to go.

Hiccups Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 7:48pm

burleigh wrote:
Vote No. why didn’t Briggs mention this in his paid ad?

Briggs wasn't paid, you heinous bullshit artist.

gsco Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 7:55pm

gday adam12, nice of you to stop by for a friendly and inclusive chat that celebrates the diversity of all contributors.

actually I got a story bout watches. Just before one trip to China my girlfriend at the time bought a Rolex in Australia for her extended family, $90k if I remember it right. I wore it on my wrist for the trip over and gave it to them in person. Was freaking out the whole flight.

btw are you absolutely positive about the factuality of:

adam12 wrote:
The truth is that FNP are actually the gold medalists of homo sapiens. The first to the top of the food chain, the first to master the use of fire, the first to have a real impact on the natural environment and the oldest continuous culture and civilisation on Earth, dating back 75000 years. Britain began around the 10th century, the Roman Empire lasted about 2000 years...

And I'm actually mildly allergic to onions..

Hiccups Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 7:55pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
Yeah so not a Trump fan as such but I am a big fan of De santis though.

And why, pray tell, are you a big fan of De Santis?

adam12 Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 8:16pm

@Indo "Ha ha obviously i meant President not Prime minister, my head in this thread is in Aus not USA."
Yeah, haha, obviously you're an idiot, haha, doesn't matter which thread you are in.

@gsco "gday adam12, nice of you to stop by for a friendly and inclusive chat that celebrates the diversity of all contributors.

btw are you absolutely positive about the factuality of:"

Yeah, just dropped in to diss some dills.
Not worth debating idiots.
You don't fall into that category, but the last time we debated anything you got "exhausted" and bailed, so nah, you won't get me biting that little hook.
I've got a quick story about Tony Abbott and Rolex's. Just before he died, George Pell had a proctology exam and apparently they found Tony Abbott's gold rolex. Not sure if it was one of the ones the Chinese gifted him and Brother Stewie though.

indo-dreaming Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 8:31pm

Hiccups wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
Yeah so not a Trump fan as such but I am a big fan of De santis though.

And why, pray tell, are you a big fan of De Santis?

You mean why am i fan?

He has done a great job in Florida and i just think he takes the better conservative traits of Trump (anti woke etc) but without the aspects of Trump that suck (the un hinged, all about me nature), add to that he has a whole heap of other aspects that work in his favour, he is young good looking a family man, he has real life experience but also professional and political experience and his military background is an added bonus.

Everything ive seen and heard for me he is the perfect president, sadly at the moment his biggest obstacle is Trump and Trump supporters.

But even if he gets through and Trump doesn't Trump and his supporters can either make or break him.

Hiccups Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 8:27pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
Hiccups wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
Yeah so not a Trump fan as such but I am a big fan of De santis though.

And why, pray tell, are you a big fan of De Santis?

You mean why am i fan?

He has done a great job in Florida and i just think he takes the better conservative traits of Trump (anti woke etc) but without the aspects of Trump that suck (the un hinged, all about me nature), add to that he has a whole heap of other aspects that work in his favour, he is young good looking a true family man, he has real life experience but also professional and political experience and his military background is an added bonus.

Sadly at the moment his biggest obstacle is Trump and Trump supporters.

I know you own a lot already, but if you think DeS isn't unhinged, I've yet another bridge to sell you. For a start, have you seen that man's fake laugh? Hahaha

goofyfoot Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 8:35pm

Hiccups wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
Hiccups wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
Yeah so not a Trump fan as such but I am a big fan of De santis though.

And why, pray tell, are you a big fan of De Santis?

You mean why am i fan?

He has done a great job in Florida and i just think he takes the better conservative traits of Trump (anti woke etc) but without the aspects of Trump that suck (the un hinged, all about me nature), add to that he has a whole heap of other aspects that work in his favour, he is young good looking a true family man, he has real life experience but also professional and political experience and his military background is an added bonus.

Sadly at the moment his biggest obstacle is Trump and Trump supporters.

I know you own a lot already, but if you think DeS isn't unhinged, I've yet another bridge to sell you. For a start, have you seen that man's fake laugh? Hahaha

DeSantis - the guy who is against gun control and introduced the law that Women wanting to terminate pregnancies resulting from rape or incest have until 15 weeks providing they can prove their claim with documentation? That guy?
Yeah what a man. Ffs

andy-mac Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 8:54pm

Best summary yet ....

https://m.

indo-dreaming Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 9:20pm

Best summary yet ....

Supafreak Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 10:38pm

Some get it , some don’t. https://x.com/aaronsmith333/status/1711272742602113378?s=46&t=5RczxwAfzX...

Supafreak Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 10:53pm

Turncoat tony https://x.com/shitfuckery1/status/1711344479033229792?s=46&t=5RczxwAfzXe...

truebluebasher Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 3:18am

Many Sacred Oz sites are High Risk are requested to close but > fatal accidents ban the access.
Where tbb lives "Natural Arch / Falls / Slides were all banned to curb loss of life.
Rescue costs & efforts were putting more lives at risk...can say other but...it's true!
More of these closures have mounting impact on regional Drawcard Adventure tourism.
https://www.aap.com.au/factcheck/off-limit-indigenous-sites-claim-is-way...

World best example of Govt surrender of #1 Ancient sacred site to Traditional Owners.
While the Voice has been rising > Sacred Heart is equally falling from international recognition.
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/c5af083655767cb9fd757ddac7f3bf065da325bb/...

Equally some may say the Voice is working but Leaders are worried at halving of Uluru financial worth.
With whatever banned access to Sacred Sites...Tourism & Community vote with their feet.

Research of earlier dates revealed Tree Burning or incidental Graffiti over Art.
More recently heading into the Voice are more Violent Power Cutting Tools over highly Sacred sites!
There is no doubt these attacks are increasingly linked to retribution of closed iconic access.
Racists are losing their shit...goin' next level psychopathic God squad avengers of devilish heathens.

tbb once recalls back in '81 Clermont Pub...sittin' at bar with mate over from Aboriginal Mum'n'bub!
Cockie storms in & said to shut the baby up or else...minute later returns with Chainsaw revving.
Revvin' it over their heads until we calmed the Cockie down & safely removed Mum'n'bub.

Exactly the same level of hatred by these racist nut jobs carvin' out Aboriginal history! Plenty of 'em!
tbb is unlocking shameful disrespect of Sacred Sites is ramping toward Voice Polling Day.
Some say this wave of Vandalism is retaliation of regional bans or Invader's statue destruction...
Yes! tbb knows...media not onto it & again...more of the same below!

2019/20 Vic Roads Birthing trees WAR
May 2020 Sandon Point Garden was chain sawed
May 2020 Juukan Gorge Cave obliteration by Rio Tinto
Oct 2020 St George Welcome Sign gets trashed
All 2021 Nth most Tip of Cape York Rock Cliffs copped heaps of Full frontal Massive Graffiti
Aug 2021 Talbot 700yr / 15m wide Birthing Tree incinerated
Jan 2022 Sundown Point Petroglyph is hacked by power saw
May 2022 World #1 Goldie Bodysurf God cops another (Insta Spray)
Aug 2022 Yagel Naidoc Elder Utility Mural cops a White Out after just 3 weeks.
Dec 2022 Koonalda Cave Art is gouged over with tags & diatribe
Jan 2023 Roebourne all 7 Indigenous Statues were damaged > Stolen but thankfully recovered
April 2023 Noccalula Falls 2x Mass Graffiti raids
May 2023 Sunny Big Wave God is (Severely hacked) by some God Squad Power Tool
Aug 2023 Buangor Birthing Trees (Major Graffiti Attack) + Poisoning
Oct 2023 Windorah Well is (Concreted)
Just keep yer eye out for these power mad racist fuckers trying to wipe Aboriginals from history!

1985 Oz surrendered #1 Oz Sacred site Uluru...in turn for 50 year Lease.
Traditional handshake directive to ban climbing asap...
Oz Govt broke contract terms by extending climbing 34 years + extending to 99 year Lease (Forever!)
At best...First Nation can only advise Real Estate agents to tell Squatters not to trash their sacred site.
Oz Govt pays rent to Uluru-Kata Tjuta Lands Trust.

Post War 38 deaths (1987 Jan -Sept 15 died ) falls & Heart Attacks (eg:) 74 rescues 2002-09
Right up to rushed last visits ...young Girl falling off top of the Rock...just another day at Uluru!
Was fast becoming an Ancient White Sacred Memorial Site!
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/122121139

Oct 2019 : 34yrs after signs & warnings.
Unanimous UKT Board Vote > EPBC apply penalties for Climbing / Swimming / Photos
Parks Australia say they're serious > Stick to new adaptable themed trails with VIP Guides.

Aussies + NT : 60% protest Climbing Ban (vs) 40% Support Climbing Ban. (Reflects : 2023 Voice Poll)

Aug 2022 : First & only EPBC breach fined $2,500 in NT Court (NP...Follow up any non payment)

There is NO Elder pointing a bone demanding cash or grog...(It's trespass on White Resident's Lease)
Uluru Tribal Council are simply what you'd come to expect ... Multi tiered white arsed Bureaucrats!
https://parksaustralia.gov.au/files/Parks-Australia-Division-Structure.pdf

#1 Director of NP's Sean Sullivan is obliged to express the UKT Board's wishes.."Do not Climb!"
#2 Division Head - Jason "Here's the envelope Sean..."Thanx Jason!"
#3 EPBC Taskforce -(Secretary) David (Deputy Secretary) NP Director #1 Sean
https://www.dcceew.gov.au/environment/epbc/epbc-act-reform
#4 IAC : (Chair) Duane is Indigenous
#5 IESC : (Chair) Chris
#6 TSSC : (Chair) Helene
#7 JMSB : (Chair) Karl

UKT Board (12 Members) Mandated Aboriginal Majority
#8 (1 Vote ) NT Central Land Council
#9 > #11 (3 votes) Fed Govt NP / Enviro / Tourism
Way way down here in the power play are yer Traditional owners of #1 Iconic Indigenous world site.
#12 > #19 (8 votes + Chair ) Aboriginals nominated by Trad' Owners.

12 member UKT Uluru 12 member board meet 4x/yr rotate every 5 years to develop 10yr Park plan
Uluru NP Management Plans are prepared 'under' the provisions of the 1999 (EPBC Act)

Measuring the Regional / Economic / Cultural impact of Park Bans is increasing with Voice process.
Not saying any are...tbb is clearly tabling the Sacred Voice Shopper Docket for them...free of charge!

Jan 2020 (Pre Covid) Headline 'Climbing ban slash 40% Hotel prices!'
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7936075/Uluru-climbing-ban-hits...

Aug 2020 (Covid) Days : Uluru Locals Stand & Block the Road ~ similar to Stolen Wealth Mob protest.
Still then it was Each Govt that built the Walls & locked ourselves out!
Aboriginal owned Uluru ever remained more accessible than yer local scan'n'ban cafe!
https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-australia-indigenous-...

Oct 2021: Climb is not Prohibited...we ask for respect as we must safeguard visitors...many died!
https://www.dcceew.gov.au/parks-heritage/national-parks/uluru-kata-tjuta...

Aug 2022 First & only EPBC access breach > NT Court Fine $2,500 > NP follow up any non payment.

Access is an issue but main concern is for the locals to afford living in fastest failing economies.
Every action...equal & opposite reaction scenario is playing out with few noticing.
Secret men's business is more similar to Taliban's tourist model than flipside Me too initiation parties.
Reconcile that each return of sacred rights further isolates Albo's migrating cbd models.
Perfect Storm ...Only Cashed up Japanese / Chinese would ever attempt climbing the Rock...(Not now!)

8th Oct 2023 Reality Check of Uluru rent crisis is starting to hit home.
Datestamp : 2017 = 300,000+ > 2019 = 406,821 (Fires/Climb-Covid Bans/Floods) 2023 =164,678
Total lost annual income = $200m

NT Tourism Minister : "Oz has a Social Responsibility for NT (eg) Covid / Safety / Law & Order +
Hypocritical of Qantas / Jetstar to support Voice while cutting over half NT Centre flights!"...(Ouch!)
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-08/nt-uluru-visitor-numbers-slump-po...

Post Voice Wash Up > Sacred Heart Agenda : Items 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 / 5
Statement from the Heart Sacred Ban = 40%
Statement from the Heart Air Services = 40%
Statement from the Heart Voice Vote = 40%
Statement from the Heart land bank Gate takings = 40%
Statement of open & managed iconic Sacred Sites = 40%

tbb : Guarantees this Crisis will hover over the Neocon Media scrum without notice.
Inside Tip : 1-2mths standard delay for current deadhead frontline investigative journalism to catch on.

When we say ours...always are, always will be reuniting with our ancestral peoples.
Sure! Give yourself a black eye or knock yourself out to calm yourself down...Please do that!
Fight this simple fact all yer life...ONE OF US...seeded from the first & oldest race...where else!
We are them that been round the world'n'back...all are Welcome Home...respect yer elders!
First People's history is our history...Always was, always will be...no denying that!

Ancient Australia has 250 Nations with no trace of any First Nation's dividing walls
Earliest Aboriginal trade links to China > populated afar as South America.

Modern World has 250 Nations with 80 walls + another 45 in the process...outta our way tbb.
That's 125 Worldwide Seasonal Majestic Migrations killed off by those all born of First Nation blood.

Yet dumb arses ask to see Worldly Aboriginal Legacy...All fail to see ...World's greatest ever Legacy!
It's the Majesty of the freedom to share everything freely as always...as First Peoples teach us!
It's obvious to the world & us...we have a name for it...We celebrate The Lucky Country...
Why does tbb feel our luck is running out!

Martians : "Seriously...just how fucking stupid are these dumbarse Aussies!"

Sky is caving in & how will we survive...simply Vote for those that can't make up their Minds.
Voted down'n'out as dick-brains are now waving as rock star royalty for eating yer hearts out live on stage.
If ya still don't know...then be extra careful not choke on yer last supper...Bon Appetit!

Take a look around...can ya see it now...sky / land / sea / you / me are free with intergalactic harmony!
Everlasting First Nation's Legacy...the gift that keeps on giving! Not that anyone would care to notice!

Reform Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 5:56am

tbb. Your whole piece is essential reading and I loved this piece of poetry if I may copy it here...Cheers

"Take a look around...can ya see it now...sky / land / sea / you / me are free with intergalactic harmony!
Everlasting First Nation's Legacy...the gift that keeps on giving! Not that anyone would care to notice!"
tbb Tuesday 10 Oct, 3,18 am

frog Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 7:49am

Last night, in Q&A the Minister for Indigenous Australians, Linda Burney stated earnestly to the Australian people:

"a No vote means no change, no progress, the status quo"

That suggests that she and her government:
- currently have no ideas on how to improve things.
- have no idea how to find ways to listen effectively to FNP outside of The Voice concept.

What an admission. Hardly confidence inspiring.

Competent?

indo-dreaming Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 7:54am

I dont trust Victorians especially after voting Dan back in but this is a good sign, hopefully Vic and NSW are No states, taking away any hope of the voice getting up.

udo Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 7:56am

View this post on Instagram

southernraw Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 7:59am

indo-dreaming wrote:
I dont trust Victorians especially after voting Dan back in but this is a good sign, hopefully Vic and NSW are No states, taking away any hope of the voice getting up.

"a good sign", "hopefully", "take away any hope"
Fark caaarnt have a little consideration for those who's hopes and dreams of a better life are hinging on this vote getting up for them, not your own little selfish corner of your existence.
Its fine to have an opinion, it's fucked to rub peoples noses even further into the dirt than they have been for 240 years.

goofyfoot Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 8:03am

indo-dreaming wrote:
I dont trust Victorians especially after voting Dan back in but this is a good sign, hopefully Vic and NSW are No states, taking away any hope of the voice getting up.

You really are a desperate low life cunt aren’t you. Shut the fuck up for once in your deranged miserable life.

goofyfoot Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 8:04am

Beat me to it sr

frog Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 8:16am

Whatever the outcome, the huge message drummed into everyone and agreed by 99%, is that government needs to get out and listen in a systematic way than is currently the case.

That can still occur.

Albo and Linda, by their statements, however, seem a little passive and ready to abdicate responsibility for making improvements for FNP. That should be a real concern.

indo-dreaming Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 8:37am

Come on guys no need get all personal and abusive just because we share different views.

Sign's are good that this will be defeated but its still not over until we know the result.

BTW. If this fails and you feel the need to blame anyone blame its not me and No voter you should be blaming, its going to all be on Albo, he could have put the voice in policy first and then possibly latter could have taken it to a referendum.

If it fails to get up, now he says it wont even be put in policy, i guess he fears a backlash from Australians that might perceive him as going against their will, although like me i dont think people have a voting No to the voice as such, but voting No to it being put in our constitution, two very different things.

So yeah dont dare blame me and the rest of Australia if this doesn't get up blame Albo.

southernraw Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 8:32am

indo-dreaming wrote:
Come on guys no need get all personal and abusive just because we share different views.

Sign's are good that this will be defeated but its still not over until we know the result.

You just don't get it do you. Take a step back and think about how your words could be affecting others.
This is a public forum.
Just because there aren't people commenting 24 hours a day like you, doesn't mean they're not reading it.
I can't believe how much someone could be creaming themselves over the potential misfortune and loss of others.

stunet Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 8:35am

ID a few pages back you wrote that you were not particularly attached to the outcome either way, wouldn't be gloating if it's no etc. Kinda hard to square up that comment with your recent ones.

Something changed..?

goofyfoot Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 8:44am

Fine to have different views, that’s not the problem, you’re just a deadshit that jerks off to news polls and smothers these forums with your dull, monotone, brain dead views.
The amount of people you would have turned off this website would be staggering.
Day after day back and forth on here fucking serial pest

indo-dreaming Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 9:07am

stunet wrote:
ID a few pages back you wrote that you were not particularly attached to the outcome either way, wouldn't be gloating if it's no etc. Kinda hard to square up that comment with your recent ones.

Something changed..?

I do recall saying something along those lines, but in all honesty if the voice fails its going to be very hard to stick to that mind set, especially knowing the memes that are going to be flowing and things like articles analysing it all.

There is people here like Andy-Mac or even Supa that share totally different views with but IF the voice fails i honestly wouldn't want to rub it in their faces or gloat they can give it but they generally play the ball not the man, i hold some respect for them. (there is probably others too but names evade me)

But there is other people here like Adam or Guy, AndyM, Harry that have often just thrown nothing more than personal attacks and just think they are better than others looking down on people like me, so yeah giving a bit back at the end might not be such a bad idea after all we are all human.

lostdoggy Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 8:52am

Indo, gloating about an issue such as this on a public forum isn’t a back and forth between you and individual posters in quiet corner of a pub you know?

indo-dreaming Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 9:11am

goofyfoot wrote:
Fine to have different views, that’s not the problem, you’re just a deadshit that jerks off to news polls and smothers these forums with your dull, monotone, brain dead views.
The amount of people you would have turned off this website would be staggering.
Day after day back and forth on here fucking serial pest

Its one thread dude, and the reality is most comments even in this thread are views you share, in the real world if the polls are correct assuming most here seem to be in the older demographic 40+ your views on the voice are a minority as low as 25%-28%

So your views are still over represented here compared to the wider Australian community..

Its actually very interesting how so many people here have such trouble with others sharing or expressing views they dont agree with.

Welcome to my world dude, most peoples post and views here on politics or social issues i dont agree with as its a very progressive space, so yeah cry me a river honey.

lostdoggy wrote:
Indo, gloating about an issue such as this on a public forum isn’t a back and forth between you and individual posters in quiet corner of a pub you know?

Dude this isn't a pub, the way people go about things here would never happen in a pub, those who throw abuse and insults would never do that in real life even in a pub, people including me wouldn't cop it.

GuySmiley Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 8:59am

goofyfoot wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
I dont trust Victorians especially after voting Dan back in but this is a good sign, hopefully Vic and NSW are No states, taking away any hope of the voice getting up.

You really are a desperate low life cunt aren’t you. Shut the fuck up for once in your deranged miserable life.

The only way to react to the fucking shithead, well said GF

southernraw Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 9:26am

It's just a shame this website is dominated by Indo.
It would have a totally different feel to it if it wasn't.
I agree with Goofyfoot, i reckon some great contributors would have just given up and not bothered making valuable contributions to these forums just because they can't be bothered dealing with the fortress of dullard noise.
A discussion such as this, that affects alot of people involved in this discussion, has been allowed to be hijacked by someone seeking his own form of online notoriety through persistent, mindless white noise dribble.
I guess Indo is comfortable with being widely acknowledged as the village idiot on here but that doesn't benefit anyone else at all.
Anyway, got day off so going surfing, little point contributing further to this discussion while Indo is 'the voice'. It's kept this convo in a primitive form for far too long.

AlfredWallace Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 10:10am

Goofyfoot. Hi. He’s from Phillip Island, say no more. (apologies to the sane and sensible folk who reside there)

125 pages of comments on this topic. Maybe he could write a book, problem is, he’d wouldn’t know what to write about because he’s such an oracle across ALL and EVERY topic ever discussed on Swellnet, and he doesn’t subscribe .AW

burleigh Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 10:20am

You guys don't like what Indo says but if the polls are correct he's speaking for the majority.

Indo has never said anything racist (unlike others in the yes camp on here) The personal attacks at Indo are fowl and unfortunately a common theme with the yes voters.

Southern & Harry are the worse offenders with abuse being thrown around. Hiccup tries but he can't throw.

soggydog Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 10:24am

indo-dreaming wrote:
goofyfoot wrote:
Fine to have different views, that’s not the problem, you’re just a deadshit that jerks off to news polls and smothers these forums with your dull, monotone, brain dead views.
The amount of people you would have turned off this website would be staggering.
Day after day back and forth on here fucking serial pest

Its one thread dude, and the reality is most comments even in this thread are views you share, in the real world if the polls are correct assuming most here seem to be in the older demographic 40+ your views on the voice are a minority as low as 25%-28%

So your views are still over represented here compared to the wider Australian community..

Its actually very interesting how so many people here have such trouble with others sharing or expressing views they dont agree with.

Welcome to my world dude, most peoples post and views here on politics or social issues i dont agree with as its a very progressive space, so yeah cry me a river honey.

lostdoggy wrote:
Indo, gloating about an issue such as this on a public forum isn’t a back and forth between you and individual posters in quiet corner of a pub you know?

Dude this isn't a pub, the way people go about things here would never happen in a pub, those who throw abuse and insults would never do that in real life even in a pub, people including me wouldn't cop it.

I wouldn’t give a fuck where we are. I’d call you a sniveling little cunt to your face in a manner that you would have no confusion that I meant it. Because that’s what you are.

And I have seriously considered both Yes and No.

burleigh Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 10:27am

soggydog wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
goofyfoot wrote:
Fine to have different views, that’s not the problem, you’re just a deadshit that jerks off to news polls and smothers these forums with your dull, monotone, brain dead views.
The amount of people you would have turned off this website would be staggering.
Day after day back and forth on here fucking serial pest

Its one thread dude, and the reality is most comments even in this thread are views you share, in the real world if the polls are correct assuming most here seem to be in the older demographic 40+ your views on the voice are a minority as low as 25%-28%

So your views are still over represented here compared to the wider Australian community..

Its actually very interesting how so many people here have such trouble with others sharing or expressing views they dont agree with.

Welcome to my world dude, most peoples post and views here on politics or social issues i dont agree with as its a very progressive space, so yeah cry me a river honey.

lostdoggy wrote:
Indo, gloating about an issue such as this on a public forum isn’t a back and forth between you and individual posters in quiet corner of a pub you know?

Dude this isn't a pub, the way people go about things here would never happen in a pub, those who throw abuse and insults would never do that in real life even in a pub, people including me wouldn't cop it.

I wouldn’t give a fuck where we are. I’d call you a sniveling little cunt to your face in a manner that you would have no confusion that I meant it. Because that’s what you are.

And I have seriously considered both Yes and No.

I'm taking a wild guess and you're voting yes. The language says it all. I guarantee you wouldn't say that to someones face unless you enjoy conflict and punch-ons.

Sad times for Australia.

soggydog Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 10:36am

burleigh wrote:
soggydog wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
goofyfoot wrote:
Fine to have different views, that’s not the problem, you’re just a deadshit that jerks off to news polls and smothers these forums with your dull, monotone, brain dead views.
The amount of people you would have turned off this website would be staggering.
Day after day back and forth on here fucking serial pest

Its one thread dude, and the reality is most comments even in this thread are views you share, in the real world if the polls are correct assuming most here seem to be in the older demographic 40+ your views on the voice are a minority as low as 25%-28%

So your views are still over represented here compared to the wider Australian community..

Its actually very interesting how so many people here have such trouble with others sharing or expressing views they dont agree with.

Welcome to my world dude, most peoples post and views here on politics or social issues i dont agree with as its a very progressive space, so yeah cry me a river honey.

lostdoggy wrote:
Indo, gloating about an issue such as this on a public forum isn’t a back and forth between you and individual posters in quiet corner of a pub you know?

Dude this isn't a pub, the way people go about things here would never happen in a pub, those who throw abuse and insults would never do that in real life even in a pub, people including me wouldn't cop it.

I wouldn’t give a fuck where we are. I’d call you a sniveling little cunt to your face in a manner that you would have no confusion that I meant it. Because that’s what you are.

And I have seriously considered both Yes and No.

I'm taking a wild guess and you're voting yes. The language says it all. I guarantee you wouldn't say that to someones face unless you enjoy conflict and punch-ons.

Sad times for Australia.

Mate I’ll call a spade a spade, years of working construction does not lend itself to tolerating bullshit. I’ve been hit before, it wouldn’t be a new experience for me. I imagine that would not be the case for some on here.

Edit: it’s the glee that Indo displays that the No vote may get up that is most offensive. When either way his life will be not be affected.

AndyM Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 10:35am

“ But there is other people here like Adam or Guy, AndyM, Harry that have often just thrown nothing more than personal attacks and just think they are better than others looking down on people like me”

Don’t play the victim card bozo.
If you’re going to be a grub and a troll and an agitator, you’ll get what’s coming to you.

Jelly Flater Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 10:39am

https://m.

burleigh Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 10:44am

AndyM wrote:
“ But there is other people here like Adam or Guy, AndyM, Harry that have often just thrown nothing more than personal attacks and just think they are better than others looking down on people like me”

Don’t play the victim card bozo.
If you’re going to be a grub and a troll and an agitator, you’ll get what’s coming to you.

C'mon AndyM. Now you're throwing around empty threats. You're better than that.

AndyM Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 10:48am

Not a physical threat, talking purely about calling him out.

harrycoopr Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 11:05am

Supafreak wrote:
Turncoat tony https://x.com/shitfuckery1/status/1711344479033229792?s=46&t=5RczxwAfzXe...

This is the thing... the right lie so much they either believe their own bullshit or just don't give a fuk as they know the misinformation is to their benefit... delusion, contradiction and hypocrisy are their staple diet. We only need to examine what #boycottindo and burley have been saying to see this. In fact i think these two in particular are just attention seekers and don't even care what they say as long as it gets a reaction... #boycottindo doesn't seem to have a life at all... just checking his SN posts every 10mins so he can puke some more shit. I wouldn't be surprised if they're privateskool bullies with pasty Trump hands... It's really best to have some pity for them... yes a good punch in the face may stop the insanity for a while but they'll just saddle up again. It's like Scomo... can't help himself, can't stop lying and smirking and thinking he's right... good Christian values and a famiy man to boot... a real role model.

gsco Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 11:07am

Understandably going to be a venting and outpouring of emotion after the count regardless of how the cards fall.

I just want to say that this referendum is a vote of whether to modify the constitution, that’s all.

It’s not a vote of whether Australia cares about, wants to help, or wants to improve outcomes for all Aboriginal Australians. Every person wants these things regardless of the outcome, and always will.

A No win doesn’t mean that Australia does not care, is not compassionate or understanding, or is racist. It just means that on this issue the people of this country don’t want to modify the constitution.

Australia has for decades tried its hardest, is currently trying its hardest, and will continue to try its hardest will into the future to do everything it can for Aboriginal Australians.

Regardless of the outcome, Australia will wake up the next morning and ask itself “ok what is the best way forward from here to help Aboriginal Australians?”

Hopefully no matter what the outcome Australia as a nation can accept it and move forward positively.

If the No vote wins I personally would be supportive of a Voice body created in legislation.

harrycoopr Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 11:09am

harrycoopr wrote:
frog wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
The right thrive on division... always been that way.

and the left is pretty good at it too:

Trouble starts when campaigns over-reach, alienating moderate supporters through labels for those "not in the club" that come from a place of assumed moral superiority. The moral superiority starting point has been found to be very unsuccessful at bringing sceptics on board.

Some divisive labels used widely by the left:
- misinformation
- dinasaur
- dickhead
- hate speech
- idiot
- the "r" word
- ....phobic
- privilege
- nutjob
- far right
etc.

The left has become qjuite expert at creating division safe under the cloak of the warm fuzzy words such as "inclusive" and an assumed position of moral superiority.

Such left leaning language that can become divisive lines in the sand that say - "alternative views, or aspects of an issue needing exploration, are not welcome for discussion". But cleverly, are almost impossible to counter because they sound so "nice". They shut down debate.

A common view is hard to achieve in such as environment.

The left is less than perfect...BUT... when did they ever show such moral bankruptcy or racist political expediency as Howard's Kids Overboard, Tampa and Intervention?
Let me know some of the disgusting things the ALP have done... Umm, the Redfern Speech, the Apology, Reconciliation... the Voice! Whenever there's positive unifying moments its the left. Whenever there's some kind of hysterical scandal it's the right... Just the nature of the beasts.

bonza Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 11:12am

"Let me know some of the disgusting things the ALP have done"

here' a recent one.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-06/mark-mcgowan-new-jobs-bhp-mineral...

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