The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

bluediamond started the topic in

Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

udo Sunday, 8 Oct 2023 at 5:44pm

sameaswas wrote:
udo wrote:
Older and immunocompromised Australians will be given free access to a new, more effective shingles vaccine from next month.
Nearly five million people will be eligible for the vaccination from November 1, including those aged 65 years and over,
First Nations people aged 50 years and over and immunocompromised people aged 18 years and over who are at high risk of catching the shingles virus.

interesting info udo, i remember early on in the covid saga the medical experts said a side effect of the vacine was it may cause shingles and last year they had adverts out saying 1 in 5 (not sure exact nos) of ppl over age of 50(?) have a chance of developing shingles and no mention of the vacine causing side effect.

I was thinking more about Equality.

Jelly Flater Sunday, 8 Oct 2023 at 6:00pm

“i remember even in the 80s with the first wave of rap/hip hop, thinking we were gangsters and we would carry around butterfly knifes and getting into low level crime like graffiti and shop lifting (spray cans) all inspired by the USA scene.”

Hahaha... the OG...
- original gumboot ;)

And to this day... still influenced and inspired by fuckwits
No wonder you’re still exhibiting fuckwit behaviour ;)

GuySmiley Sunday, 8 Oct 2023 at 6:15pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
GuySmiley wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
gsco wrote:
you're doing well ID. Hats off to you.

The sole conservative torchbearer trying to rationally debate a twitter army of militant lefties brandishing all the usual and vulgar cancel culture and tribal warfare techniques.

It's a dirty job but someone's gotta do it.

Open and free debate is the bedrock of democracy.

Thanks gsco just trying to provide some balance, echo chamber's are boring, and i think diversity of views is important.

I’m left wondering whether @info is now providing an argument for the Voice or further proof of how delusional he is about his own personality trait of being a complete arsehole at every possible opportunity. Bullshit away.

Im telling you now Guy dont you dare ever send me an invoice expecting me to pay, cause lets be clear im living completely rent free in your head.

Actually no never in my head @info but I’m absolutely sure you love being the rentboy for all of your grifter heroes.

harrycoopr Sunday, 8 Oct 2023 at 6:25pm

harrycoopr wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
There will always be those wanting those things but stoping the voice takes some power away and it draws a clear line in the sand a line drawn by the majority of Australians.

A yes vote basically does the opposite.

And there u have it... Indo finally comes clean... "taking the power away"... We can't have those blackfellas accessing any ADVISORY power can we! Next they'll start spearing our cattle again the hungry bastards.

sameaswas Sunday, 8 Oct 2023 at 6:33pm

udo wrote:
sameaswas wrote:
udo wrote:
Older and immunocompromised Australians will be given free access to a new, more effective shingles vaccine from next month.
Nearly five million people will be eligible for the vaccination from November 1, including those aged 65 years and over,
First Nations people aged 50 years and over and immunocompromised people aged 18 years and over who are at high risk of catching the shingles virus.

interesting info udo, i remember early on in the covid saga the medical experts said a side effect of the vacine was it may cause shingles and last year they had adverts out saying 1 in 5 (not sure exact nos) of ppl over age of 50(?) have a chance of developing shingles and no mention of the vacine causing side effect.

I was thinking more about Equality.

if you mean the lower age limit for fnp? i'm ok with that cos they are on the whole more susceptable to disease than settler stock or so medical experts say.

indo-dreaming Sunday, 8 Oct 2023 at 6:39pm

harrycoopr wrote:
#boycottindo
I'm in!!

Well judging by the trifecta i just racked up above in Jelly, Guy & Harry this movement died in the arse pretty quick.

And here i was thinking id have a nice peaceful week before we crossed the finish line and hopefully take home the chocolates and crack the champagne.

sameaswas Sunday, 8 Oct 2023 at 6:56pm

wow freakin wow! just saw albo on news in a mosque doing his vote yes spiel to the packed worshippers and he threw in the "it's a vote against racism".
and the iman informed the faithfull they will all vote yes and we all know about racism...unfreakenbelievable!!

where is the seperation of state powers and religion that is a rock of our democracy?
it is against our constitution to order someone who to vote for and that iman did!

and albo was the instigator, if he went to any other faith they would of refused him entry.

religion in western democracy's are apolitical and they DO NOT tell you who to vote for and the imans have allready stated recently that they want a voice too.

GuySmiley Sunday, 8 Oct 2023 at 6:57pm

#alwaysanothercomment

Supafreak Sunday, 8 Oct 2023 at 6:58pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
#boycottindo
I'm in!!

Well judging by the trifecta i just racked up above in Jelly, Guy & Harry this movement died in the arse pretty quick.

And here i was thinking id have a nice peaceful week before we crossed the finish line and hopefully take home the chocolates and crack the champagne.

Jacinta’s shout @indo , it’s the least she can do for all your disinformation.

indo-dreaming Sunday, 8 Oct 2023 at 7:15pm

Its actually sad how misused the word "disinformation" has become.

BTW. every time i see that pic, i always think she has spilled some on her top, then a split second latter click its the wine glass shadow.

harrycoopr Sunday, 8 Oct 2023 at 7:32pm

Don't believe the No camp. If they succeed they will accept nothing less than total Aboriginal domination of the Parliament Senate and all the country in fact. They don't want a Voice... They want Total Sovereignty and Total Control of Everything. I have heard from good sources (internet), sources you can trust, sources you don’t need to check, that regardless of the outcome the No camp are gonna enact a Coup. Mundine and Price will take control of the Canberra bubble as Emperor and Empress of the new nation Hansonalia... a One Nation... where no difference occurs therefore no divisiveness. Be prepared and don't tell me I didn't warn yas.
(Didn't interact with indo.. just reposted his "take the power away" comment... his true colours shining thru. #boycottindo)

frog Sunday, 8 Oct 2023 at 7:32pm

TBB is a national treasure. Truly one of a kind.

Deciphering his posts will inform you on angles you never thought of and..... prevent dementia.

SN is privileged to have him as our very own.

Jelly Flater Sunday, 8 Oct 2023 at 7:43pm

;)

https://m.

A Salty Dog Sunday, 8 Oct 2023 at 8:00pm

sameaswas wrote:
wow freakin wow! just saw albo on news in a mosque doing his vote yes spiel to the packed worshippers and he threw in the "it's a vote against racism".
and the iman informed the faithfull they will all vote yes and we all know about racism...unfreakenbelievable!!

where is the seperation of state powers and religion that is a rock of our democracy?
it is against our constitution to order someone who to vote for and that iman did!

and albo was the instigator, if he went to any other faith they would of refused him entry.

religion in western democracy's are apolitical and they DO NOT tell you who to vote for and the imans have allready stated recently that they want a voice too.

where is the seperation of state powers and religion that is a rock of our democracy?

Good question, but I doubt Howard, Abbott, or Morrison could give you an answer.

southernraw Sunday, 8 Oct 2023 at 8:01pm

1988. Barunga Statement.
This is what i call reparations, and i completely support all of them.
I understand others don't for their own reasons, but morally, i can't find any justification for not meeting these requests.
This is called closing the gap, from the other direction. Shouldn't all be one way traffic towards white/western/colonised culture.
Amazing, we're only just having a national discussion about it now, some 37 years later, within the time frame of 240 years of occupation.
Barunga Statement
"We, the Indigenous owners and occupiers of Australia, call on the Australian Government and people to recognise our rights:
to self-determination and self-management, including the freedom to pursue our own economic, social, religious and cultural development;
to permanent control and enjoyment of our ancestral lands;
to compensation for the loss of use of our lands, there having been no extinction of original title;
to protection of and control of access to our sacred sites, sacred objects, artefacts, designs, knowledge and works of art;
to the return of the remains of our ancestors for burial in accordance with our traditions;
to respect for and promotion of our Aboriginal identity, including the cultural, linguistic,
religious and historical aspects, and including the right to be educated in our own languages and in our own culture and history;
in accordance with the universal declaration of human rights, the international covenant on economic, social and cultural rights, the international covenant on civil and political rights, and the international convention on the elimination of all forms of racial discrimination, rights to life, liberty, security of person, food, clothing, housing, medical care, education and employment opportunities, necessary social services and other basic rights.
We call on the Commonwealth to pass laws providing:

A national elected Aboriginal and Islander organisation to oversee Aboriginal and Islander affairs;
A national system of land rights;
A police and justice system which recognises our customary laws and frees us from discrimination and any activity which may threaten our identity or security, interfere with our freedom of expression or association, or otherwise prevent our full enjoyment and exercise of universally recognised human rights and fundamental freedoms.
We call on the Australian Government to support Aborigines in the development of an international declaration of principles for indigenous rights, leading to an international covenant.

And we call on the Commonwealth Parliament to negotiate with us a Treaty recognising our prior ownership, continued occupation and sovereignty and affirming our human rights and freedom."
https://aiatsis.gov.au/explore/barunga-statement

Also, agree with Frog, TBB is a SN treasure. One of a kind and definitely adds so much value to these forums. Cheers TBB!!

Reform Sunday, 8 Oct 2023 at 9:40pm

southernraw wrote:
1988. Barunga Statement.
This is what i call reparations, and i completely support all of them.
I understand others don't for their own reasons, but morally, i can't find any justification for not meeting these requests.
This is called closing the gap, from the other direction. Shouldn't all be one way traffic towards white/western/colonised culture.
Amazing, we're only just having a national discussion about it now, some 37 years later, within the time frame of 240 years of occupation.
Barunga Statement
"We, the Indigenous owners and occupiers of Australia, call on the Australian Government and people to recognise our rights:
to self-determination and self-management, including the freedom to pursue our own economic, social, religious and cultural development;
to permanent control and enjoyment of our ancestral lands;
to compensation for the loss of use of our lands, there having been no extinction of original title;
to protection of and control of access to our sacred sites, sacred objects, artefacts, designs, knowledge and works of art;
to the return of the remains of our ancestors for burial in accordance with our traditions;
to respect for and promotion of our Aboriginal identity, including the cultural, linguistic,
religious and historical aspects, and including the right to be educated in our own languages and in our own culture and history;
in accordance with the universal declaration of human rights, the international covenant on economic, social and cultural rights, the international covenant on civil and political rights, and the international convention on the elimination of all forms of racial discrimination, rights to life, liberty, security of person, food, clothing, housing, medical care, education and employment opportunities, necessary social services and other basic rights.
We call on the Commonwealth to pass laws providing:

A national elected Aboriginal and Islander organisation to oversee Aboriginal and Islander affairs;
A national system of land rights;
A police and justice system which recognises our customary laws and frees us from discrimination and any activity which may threaten our identity or security, interfere with our freedom of expression or association, or otherwise prevent our full enjoyment and exercise of universally recognised human rights and fundamental freedoms.
We call on the Australian Government to support Aborigines in the development of an international declaration of principles for indigenous rights, leading to an international covenant.

And we call on the Commonwealth Parliament to negotiate with us a Treaty recognising our prior ownership, continued occupation and sovereignty and affirming our human rights and freedom."
https://aiatsis.gov.au/explore/barunga-statement

Also, agree with Frog, TBB is a SN treasure. One of a kind and definitely adds so much value to these forums. Cheers TBB!!

Hey Southern,
Is this a new find from you? Excellent! Not only is this evidence that the FNP have mastered the English language but have attained the means to convey their message and articulate their wants and needs via a plea to the rule makers of the day within the Parliament.
I guess it’s no laughing matter and is such a shame that this very respectful plea was ignored.
Just look at the Indigenous in New Zealand for instance, Since many years, there has been a very strong representation of Maori persons within the NZ parliament who are policy and decision makers. The Maori people are very proud of this and their people have been able to maintain their traditions and dignity having their representative in a respectful place of governance.
I fully agree with the wording and points made in this 1988 Barunga Statement. And support what you have stated here: "This is called closing the gap, from the other direction. Shouldn't all be one way traffic towards white/western/colonised culture.” Great sentence!
But the messages of wisdom dictated by the Maori FNP with their sensibly devised forms of planning and social needs is a fantastic model to go off.
The people of Australia just need to realise what brilliance and intelligence the FNP have. As the Maoris have enjoyed the privilege to have representatives in Parliament, so too should our Aboriginal community enjoy a dignified position as decision makers in Parliament, for the bunch of Australians living , working , socialising, dancing, singing, creating, mustering and surfing.
Long live the FNP!
Tbb – I extend the compliments to you – Other-worldly brilliance, genius of mind, thank you!

southernraw Sunday, 8 Oct 2023 at 11:28pm

Thanks Reform and yes, i found this today and thought it was worth sharing and reflecting on.
Really enjoyed reading your post above and completely in agreement that there are so many things that should/could be embraced moving forward of these beautiful original inhabitants of this great land. It's mind blowing how much we haven't allowed ourselves to embrace what's right before our eyes.
The Maori situation as you pointed out is also something noteworthy. Have actually been watching a doco on the heavy handed police raids that went down over there a few years ago in the name of anti terrorism against many of the maori crew. I don't know enough about the details and won't say more than it's a fascinating watch and sure shows how things can be framed by the media to create the story or theme they want the general public to swallow.

Supafreak Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 5:01am

https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2023/october/megan-davis/voice-beyon... …… The fact is that in 2023, Peter Dutton and David Littleproud rejected outright the referendum proposal without reading any detail first. They should have attracted more condemnation.
……….. Langton was derided for questioning racism in this country in a way that no racist is ever scrutinised. As many said in social and political commentary, it’s seen as worse in Australia to point out racism than to be a racist……… When 20,000 marched the streets of Brisbane, a few sovereignty activists unfurled an Aboriginal flag across Victoria Bridge with “Vote No” emblazoned on it. The flag led the news, not the 20,000 Aussies marching.

The post-referendum analysis will show much of the Australian media deploying false equivalence and normalising conspiracy theories prosecuted by the “No” campaign. Mainstream media have been a passive conduit of misinformation and disinformation during the campaign. And now they are writing pre-referendum obituaries exonerating themselves entirely by asking whether the “Yes” campaign failed because it didn’t have more pithy slogans.

truebluebasher Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 6:11am

Crew are most kind & will be rewarded with lashings of Joy.
tbb has been going on about Oz changing Voting papers to [Yes]
Crew may recall tbb shared #1 swellnet exclusive Timetabling Reffo Vote Paper changes.
1967 timetable changes to [YES] [NO] But Why?
tbb also noted at the time it wasn't universal across state Reffos (Not a Voting reform)

tbb 27th Aug https://www.swellnet.com/comment/915140
As said tbb did some major digging for #1 swellnet exclusive...(Don't lose the Link!)

So! Here's why all that boring stuff tbb goes on about eventually hits Pay Dirt!
Yes! This late at night ...now early morning ...Dawn service
tbb was digging deeper for 1967 Reffo Machinery Provisions...
Once had one hand on the grail & let slip the secret for the change...
Gotta go back 4 more Sultanas...Not happy Jan! Getting Grumpy now!

Ok! Think tbb can now answer the reason for changing from [x] & [1][2] > Write [YES]

1965 Fed [L] Govt Snedden dreamt up the Dual feel good [YES] [YES] Combo Rort for Menzies
1967 The rort was passed onto PM Holt to do the dirty...

All knew Oz Voters wouldn't buy into a self serving Govt rort...
Holt concocted the "ABO REFFO" for a sure [YES] to piggy back the Senate Change [YES]
To do this he adopted the [YES] [YES] Combo to advantage the feel good mood of the People.
This explains the dual Party support for Aboriginal Reffo to smooth over the joint senate ticket!
Both [L] + [alp] Doubled dosed on [YES] [YES] others / Just the one scoop...see here...
https://www.naa.gov.au/sites/default/files/styles/carousel_single_image_...

Crew can read all about this Pop Tart AEC / Big Bro Combo Rort..
The defeated 1967 Nexus Referendum by Denis Strangman
( Please someone buy this Man a Beer) Denis details why [L][alp] Threw the sheeple a Plastic Bone.
Real Life feel Good pretend Aboriginal Rights Reffo with lashings of nothing in particular...Suck it up!
The big 2 took Oz for a ride to nowhere & dumped ya all without any real change of substance.
https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Senate/Powers_practice_n_procedu...

[YES] change...had to be all or nothing ...A groovy hip [YES] Jingle...say wot!
Big pollies campaigned for [YES] + [YES]...primarily needed for Groovy Campaign & Jingle.
[The Definitive Article] > Complete with Red Faces Premium Melosi Ham
Like this... Right Wrongs Write [YES]

Recapping...there was [No] Official [No] Aboriginal Campaign!
Only a small [No] Senate Ticket by DLP / Senators.

So it's late & all of Oz sleeps...perfect time to spin the Disc Toto...
Note tbb had trouble tracking the title of Jingle but first dug out this Radio Jingle...
Really stoked finding this...then thought...What if there was a Telly Advert..Huh!
Well it was over the top...[L] Rort would have splashed out on groovy shit to exploit Voters.
The hook comes from the decimal currency ...Change is Cool...Jingle era...
https://online.clickview.com.au/share?shareCode=f7e19af3

Vote Yes for Aborigines by The Pogs (Yuppie North Shore VIP Party Band)
Sound like Herman's Hermits...& was gonna give up on them..
But the Pogs Theme is Shit Hot Chaos ( Bonus Reffo Gift from tbb...)

Then went ape shit trying to track down any YouTube Version...
Got blown away...Massive Cash Splash Production on a shit hot Colour Cartoon Jingle.
{Warning} Crew are not gonna believe wot yer about to see & hear!
Wild far-out Trippy heavy cartoon + Acid drenched Theme tune (Where the hell is this Party!)
Now tbb thought to draft out the big bro Mantra...but No Spoiler...not at this ungodly hour!
People gotta own this...ya all got fleeced & deserve to relive how & what form of retribution.

[1:20] Brave Men made sure a nation of NO voters would Vote YES for Referendum to be Carried?

No Spoiler...here's #1 swellnet crew's 1967 Reffo Show Bag!

WOTD ~~~~! ~~~~/|~~~~/(~~~~/(`~~~~/(C......./|(C`..[crew )

1967 Reffo Clip + Vote [Yes] for Aborigines + Pogs Theme + 1967 Reffo Clip.

1967 Reffo {Intermission}

truebluebasher Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 6:41am

Aussie Trip Out Teaser : Wiki Pogs...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pogs#:~:text=None%20of%20the%20band's%20four,referendum%2C%20also%20penned%20by%20Best.

Pogs changed name to Oak Apple Day (Psych band)
Rory O'Donoghue + Grahame Bond > Aunty Jack
Watch the Video > Stands on yer Telly then Rips ya Bloody arms off!
Don't that beat all...1967 Reffo theme spawned the Aunty Jack Theme...Shh! That is Gold!
tbb promised he never intended to deep that deep down into the Gold Mine..."1967 Reffo Apology!"

andy-mac Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 7:05am

Supafreak wrote:
https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2023/october/megan-davis/voice-beyon... …… The fact is that in 2023, Peter Dutton and David Littleproud rejected outright the referendum proposal without reading any detail first. They should have attracted more condemnation.
……….. Langton was derided for questioning racism in this country in a way that no racist is ever scrutinised. As many said in social and political commentary, it’s seen as worse in Australia to point out racism than to be a racist……… When 20,000 marched the streets of Brisbane, a few sovereignty activists unfurled an Aboriginal flag across Victoria Bridge with “Vote No” emblazoned on it. The flag led the news, not the 20,000 Aussies marching.

The post-referendum analysis will show much of the Australian media deploying false equivalence and normalising conspiracy theories prosecuted by the “No” campaign. Mainstream media have been a passive conduit of misinformation and disinformation during the campaign. And now they are writing pre-referendum obituaries exonerating themselves entirely by asking whether the “Yes” campaign failed because it didn’t have more pithy slogans.

Na that cannot be correct.
The Australian media is made up of neo Marxist left wing woke commies that only put forward the UN world order agenda. Remember the Voice, it's a woke commie plot!

Really the media should be going a lot harder on some of these people.
Pointed out on Insiders yesterday that Dutton although asked repeatedly has refused to appear, but will sit down with his suck hole mate Ray Hadley weekly where they can both agree on things.... sad.

indo-dreaming Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 7:38am

I missed the Voice debate on channel 7 last night but here is the worm/poll results.

Im sure they would have requested better Yes representation but seeing Linda and Albo have both declined debating Jacinta we can only assume others also weren't keen.

And link too watch
https://7plus.com.au/7news-spotlight?utm_source=7NEWS&utm_medium=7plus-f...

Jelly Flater Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 7:46am

https://m.

&pp=ygUWaSdtIHRoZSB3YXRlcmJveSBkdXJyIA%3D%3D

burleigh Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 9:10am

Vote No. why didn’t Briggs mention this in his paid ad?

View this post on Instagram

harrycoopr Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 9:51am

burleigh wrote:
Vote No. why didn’t Briggs mention this in his paid ad?

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cw1KKmNuUCG/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

That sounds ridiculous ... 40k?? How? Doesn't sound plausible... unless 40k individual homes.

harrycoopr Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 9:52am

https://insidestory.org.au/a-steady-path-to-sovereignty/?fbclid=IwAR2DK-...

Good reading that explains all approaches to come.

harrycoopr Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 10:58am

harrycoopr wrote:
burleigh wrote:
Vote No. why didn’t Briggs mention this in his paid ad?

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cw1KKmNuUCG/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

That sounds ridiculous ... 40k?? How? Doesn't sound plausible... unless 40k individual homes.

... and if so, big deal

sameaswas Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 11:57am

A Salty Dog wrote:
sameaswas wrote:
wow freakin wow! just saw albo on news in a mosque doing his vote yes spiel to the packed worshippers and he threw in the "it's a vote against racism".
and the iman informed the faithfull they will all vote yes and we all know about racism...unfreakenbelievable!!

where is the seperation of state powers and religion that is a rock of our democracy?
it is against our constitution to order someone who to vote for and that iman did!

and albo was the instigator, if he went to any other faith they would of refused him entry.

religion in western democracy's are apolitical and they DO NOT tell you who to vote for and the imans have allready stated recently that they want a voice too.

where is the seperation of state powers and religion that is a rock of our democracy?

Good question, but I doubt Howard, Abbott, or Morrison could give you an answer.

i don't recall any of them asking a religous order for votes or insinuateing muslims are victims of racism, so much for his unity and bipartism speaches, what a grub.

when abbott went for election he attended same mosque and the iman hugged him and told abbott he had told his community to all vote for the coalition, abbott thanked him but did not ask him to do so.

and the msm and constitutional lawyers said zilch about it being wrong to order ppl who to vote for, i mean the iman was wrong twice, and pm albanese was wrong to condone such undemocratic behaviour.

sameaswas Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 12:13pm

sameaswas wrote:
udo wrote:
sameaswas wrote:
udo wrote:
Older and immunocompromised Australians will be given free access to a new, more effective shingles vaccine from next month.
Nearly five million people will be eligible for the vaccination from November 1, including those aged 65 years and over,
First Nations people aged 50 years and over and immunocompromised people aged 18 years and over who are at high risk of catching the shingles virus.

interesting info udo, i remember early on in the covid saga the medical experts said a side effect of the vacine was it may cause shingles and last year they had adverts out saying 1 in 5 (not sure exact nos) of ppl over age of 50(?) have a chance of developing shingles and no mention of the vacine causing side effect.

I was thinking more about Equality.

if you mean the lower age limit for fnp? i'm ok with that cos they are on the whole more susceptable to disease than settler stock or so medical experts say.

@udo...just an update about the jnoculation, heard on news that it's a $5000 jab for non fnp under 65yrs and for fnp under 50yrs .

i see your point about why the discrepancy?
why the 15yr difference based on race?

sameaswas Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 1:05pm

@supa just did an early vote in next burb and no discrepencies in procedure, my old nghbr was wrong when she said it was "suss". said i would let you know.
my bad, apologies.

any hoo saw abbott vote ystrday on news and he was heckled by yes volounteer at the polling booth while holding a yes placard.
all for freedom of speach but that was way out of order.

seeds Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 1:05pm

$500 not $5000 but none the less bloody expensive.

A Salty Dog Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 1:30pm

sameaswas wrote:
A Salty Dog wrote:
sameaswas wrote:
wow freakin wow! just saw albo on news in a mosque doing his vote yes spiel to the packed worshippers and he threw in the "it's a vote against racism".
and the iman informed the faithfull they will all vote yes and we all know about racism...unfreakenbelievable!!

where is the seperation of state powers and religion that is a rock of our democracy?
it is against our constitution to order someone who to vote for and that iman did!

and albo was the instigator, if he went to any other faith they would of refused him entry.

religion in western democracy's are apolitical and they DO NOT tell you who to vote for and the imans have allready stated recently that they want a voice too.

where is the seperation of state powers and religion that is a rock of our democracy?

Good question, but I doubt Howard, Abbott, or Morrison could give you an answer.

i don't recall any of them asking a religous order for votes or insinuateing muslims are victims of racism, so much for his unity and bipartism speaches, what a grub.

when abbott went for election he attended same mosque and the iman hugged him and told abbott he had told his community to all vote for the coalition, abbott thanked him but did not ask him to do so.

and the msm and constitutional lawyers said zilch about it being wrong to order ppl who to vote for, i mean the iman was wrong twice, and pm albanese was wrong to condone such undemocratic behaviour.

Looks like the imam tells pollies what they want to hear,

Albo was asking for these people to support the YES vote. That is not personal support, unlike the LP Member who accosted me at the last election, violently shaking my hand telling me I had to vote for him as we'd all be better off with him.

Those I mentioned are subtle in their approach. Howard had links to the Exclusive Brethren, Abbott to Pell and the Catholic Church, and Morrison to Hillsong ( he even wanted to take Houston to the USA on a govt trip). Their links and support to those organisations encourages their members to vote for the LNP .

You also appear to have neglected the fact this is a referendum dealing with FNP and what they have asked for. Albo is just the messenger, but Dutton & Co have convinced you and a sizeable part of the population this referendum is a political exercise.

This is just another example of ultra right Trump style politics: create as much division and anger as you can.

Supafreak Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 2:04pm

“ This is just another example of ultra right Trump style politics: create as much division and anger as you can. “ ……….and it’s worked , does anyone believe the country comes together for a general election or is it divided ? Next election will be an eye opener for how Australia has changed .

sameaswas Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 2:32pm

seeds wrote:
$500 not $5000 but none the less bloody expensive.

appreciate correction.

sameaswas Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 2:44pm

A Salty Dog wrote:
sameaswas wrote:
A Salty Dog wrote:
sameaswas wrote:
wow freakin wow! just saw albo on news in a mosque doing his vote yes spiel to the packed worshippers and he threw in the "it's a vote against racism".
and the iman informed the faithfull they will all vote yes and we all know about racism...unfreakenbelievable!!

where is the seperation of state powers and religion that is a rock of our democracy?
it is against our constitution to order someone who to vote for and that iman did!

and albo was the instigator, if he went to any other faith they would of refused him entry.

religion in western democracy's are apolitical and they DO NOT tell you who to vote for and the imans have allready stated recently that they want a voice too.

where is the seperation of state powers and religion that is a rock of our democracy?

Good question, but I doubt Howard, Abbott, or Morrison could give you an answer.

i don't recall any of them asking a religous order for votes or insinuateing muslims are victims of racism, so much for his unity and bipartism speaches, what a grub.

when abbott went for election he attended same mosque and the iman hugged him and told abbott he had told his community to all vote for the coalition, abbott thanked him but did not ask him to do so.

and the msm and constitutional lawyers said zilch about it being wrong to order ppl who to vote for, i mean the iman was wrong twice, and pm albanese was wrong to condone such undemocratic behaviour.

Looks like the imam tells pollies what they want to hear,

Albo was asking for these people to support the YES vote. That is not personal support, unlike the LP Member who accosted me at the last election, violently shaking my hand telling me I had to vote for him as we'd all be better off with him.

Those I mentioned are subtle in their approach. Howard had links to the Exclusive Brethren, Abbott to Pell and the Catholic Church, and Morrison to Hillsong ( he even wanted to take Houston to the USA on a govt trip). Their links and support to those organisations encourages their members to vote for the LNP .

You also appear to have neglected the fact this is a referendum dealing with FNP and what they have asked for. Albo is just the messenger, but Dutton & Co have convinced you and a sizeable part of the population this referendum is a political exercise.

This is just another example of ultra right Trump style politics: create as much division and anger as you can.

the fact is he stood on the dias in a mosque and did it, and threw in the racist card for good measure, religion and poitics do not go together in oz and this is contempt for our diggers returned from afghanistan imo.

and trumpism? haha no way, division? politic? albo for sure guilty as hell.

harrycoopr Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 3:08pm

The right thrive on division... always been that way.

I focus Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 3:25pm

sameaswas wrote:
sameaswas wrote:
udo wrote:
sameaswas wrote:
udo wrote:
Older and immunocompromised Australians will be given free access to a new, more effective shingles vaccine from next month.
Nearly five million people will be eligible for the vaccination from November 1, including those aged 65 years and over,
First Nations people aged 50 years and over and immunocompromised people aged 18 years and over who are at high risk of catching the shingles virus.

interesting info udo, i remember early on in the covid saga the medical experts said a side effect of the vacine was it may cause shingles and last year they had adverts out saying 1 in 5 (not sure exact nos) of ppl over age of 50(?) have a chance of developing shingles and no mention of the vacine causing side effect.

I was thinking more about Equality.

if you mean the lower age limit for fnp? i'm ok with that cos they are on the whole more susceptable to disease than settler stock or so medical experts say.

@udo...just an update about the jnoculation, heard on news that it's a $5000 jab for non fnp under 65yrs and for fnp under 50yrs .

i see your point about why the discrepancy?
why the 15yr difference based on race?

Because Aboriginals die much younger all the guys I hung out with in Carnarvon all died before 65.

sameaswas Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 3:33pm

harrycoopr wrote:
The right thrive on division... always been that way.

just saw a pro yes academic interview where he was asked what he thought of the voice no compromise tactic, you know like n.p. "it's all or nothing".

he said perhaps they should of legislated it first and the govt has power to have done so, then make amendments as required, then after public understood it then have the referendum.

so who made this political? albo did, why? so the voice mob tell fnp to vote labor at last election and hey guess who'll vote for labor next election? but hey lets not mention money cos thats trumpism.

sameaswas Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 3:38pm

I focus wrote:
sameaswas wrote:
sameaswas wrote:
udo wrote:
sameaswas wrote:
udo wrote:
Older and immunocompromised Australians will be given free access to a new, more effective shingles vaccine from next month.
Nearly five million people will be eligible for the vaccination from November 1, including those aged 65 years and over,
First Nations people aged 50 years and over and immunocompromised people aged 18 years and over who are at high risk of catching the shingles virus.

interesting info udo, i remember early on in the covid saga the medical experts said a side effect of the vacine was it may cause shingles and last year they had adverts out saying 1 in 5 (not sure exact nos) of ppl over age of 50(?) have a chance of developing shingles and no mention of the vacine causing side effect.

I was thinking more about Equality.

if you mean the lower age limit for fnp? i'm ok with that cos they are on the whole more susceptable to disease than settler stock or so medical experts say.

@udo...just an update about the jnoculation, heard on news that it's a $5000 jab for non fnp under 65yrs and for fnp under 50yrs .

i see your point about why the discrepancy?
why the 15yr difference based on race?

Because Aboriginals die much younger all the guys I hung out with in Carnarvon all died before 65.

point is why do they get the discount? shingles is colour, etnicicity and race blind,

more proof of how divisive this govt is.

udo Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 3:46pm

Aboriginals are Entitled to a Free Medical every 9 mths
https://www9.health.gov.au/mbs/fullDisplay.cfm?type=item&q=715

frog Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 4:00pm

harrycoopr wrote:
The right thrive on division... always been that way.

and the left is pretty good at it too:

Trouble starts when campaigns over-reach, alienating moderate supporters through labels for those "not in the club" that come from a place of assumed moral superiority. The moral superiority starting point has been found to be very unsuccessful at bringing sceptics on board.

Some divisive labels used widely by the left:
- misinformation
- dinasaur
- dickhead
- hate speech
- idiot
- the "r" word
- ....phobic
- privilege
- nutjob
- far right
etc.

The left has become qjuite expert at creating division safe under the cloak of the warm fuzzy words such as "inclusive" and an assumed position of moral superiority.

Such left leaning language that can become divisive lines in the sand that say - "alternative views, or aspects of an issue needing exploration, are not welcome for discussion". But cleverly, are almost impossible to counter because they sound so "nice". They shut down debate.

A common view is hard to achieve in such as environment.

GuySmiley Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 5:23pm

frog, care to name 1/2 a dozen proper nation building policies put forward by the right wing governments in the UK, US or here in the last decade; that’s 6 in total and by policy I mean new matters directly aimed at improving people’s lot.

Good luck with that as the words I would use to describe the right are ideologically bankrupt when it comes to governing for the people …..

Supafreak Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 5:23pm

frog Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 5:55pm

GuySmiley wrote:
frog, care to name 1/2 a dozen proper nation building policies put forward by the right wing governments in the UK, US or here in the last decade; that’s 6 in total and by policy I mean new matters directly aimed at improving people’s lot.

Good luck with that as the words I would use to describe the right are ideologically bankrupt when it comes to governing for the people …..

Why would I want to do that?

I sit in the middle ground and am no fan of extremes on either side.

Also the term "ideology" is in itself a term that tends to downplay the value of competence, knowledge and facts.

Being ideologically rich is not a badge of honour in my eyes. Competence and good policy that will work is.

Competence is what is most lacking in governments across the world these days. They live in a world of narrative detached from reality.

indo-dreaming Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 6:00pm

I doubt anyone could name six from either left or right.

But as much as Trump is a narcissist or worst it still seems he did a better job in many ways compared to Biden or even Obama

Strangely it even seemed the world seemed more peaceful when Trump was in power, no matter what we all think of him he was a rare USA prime minister not to take USA into a new war.

And many experts say Russia wouldn't have invaded Ukraine if Trump was still in power and this recent attack on Israel might not have even happened if Trump was in or at least Biden didnt help basically getting back into bed with Iran lifting sanctions Trump put on them releasing 6 billions dollars back to Iran.

Biden is even continuing Trumps key policy like building that wall.

"Joe Biden approves new section of border wall in south Texas to curb unauthorised immigration"

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-06/joe-biden-approves-new-section-of...

GuySmiley Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 6:02pm

Annnd right on cue comes the rights rentboy taking it dry 24/7

harrycoopr Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 6:03pm

sameaswas wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
The right thrive on division... always been that way.

just saw a pro yes academic interview where he was asked what he thought of the voice no compromise tactic, you know like n.p. "it's all or nothing".

he said perhaps they should of legislated it first and the govt has power to have done so, then make amendments as required, then after public understood it then have the referendum.

so who made this political? albo did, why? so the voice mob tell fnp to vote labor at last election and hey guess who'll vote for labor next election? but hey lets not mention money cos thats trumpism.

Sorry mack, but The Spud politicised it when deciding it was his chance to oppose Albo for nothing but political division and hoped-for gain

harrycoopr Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 6:06pm

Supafreak wrote:

That's it.

GuySmiley Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 6:10pm

frog wrote:
GuySmiley wrote:
frog, care to name 1/2 a dozen proper nation building policies put forward by the right wing governments in the UK, US or here in the last decade; that’s 6 in total and by policy I mean new matters directly aimed at improving people’s lot.

Good luck with that as the words I would use to describe the right are ideologically bankrupt when it comes to governing for the people …..

Why would I want to do that?

I sit in the middle ground and am no fan of extremes on either side.

Also the term "ideology" is in itself a term that tends to downplay the value of competence, knowledge and facts.

Being ideologically rich is not a badge of honour in my eyes. Competence and good policy that will work is.

Competence is what is most lacking in governments across the world these days. They live in a world of narrative detached from reality.

Competence is a good word….. the Tories have been in power for over a decade in the UK as was, near enough anyway, Abbott-Turnbull-Morrison here… is competence a word you would describe either?? As for the Trump years FFS. I am not buying this neutral approach here, nail your balls to the mast, you can only judge the evidence before you and whether you prefer to use competence or ideologically bankrupt the rights track record is fucked

harrycoopr Monday, 9 Oct 2023 at 6:14pm

frog wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
The right thrive on division... always been that way.

and the left is pretty good at it too:

Trouble starts when campaigns over-reach, alienating moderate supporters through labels for those "not in the club" that come from a place of assumed moral superiority. The moral superiority starting point has been found to be very unsuccessful at bringing sceptics on board.

Some divisive labels used widely by the left:
- misinformation
- dinasaur
- dickhead
- hate speech
- idiot
- the "r" word
- ....phobic
- privilege
- nutjob
- far right
etc.

The left has become qjuite expert at creating division safe under the cloak of the warm fuzzy words such as "inclusive" and an assumed position of moral superiority.

Such left leaning language that can become divisive lines in the sand that say - "alternative views, or aspects of an issue needing exploration, are not welcome for discussion". But cleverly, are almost impossible to counter because they sound so "nice". They shut down debate.

A common view is hard to achieve in such as environment.

The left is less than perfect...BUT... when did they ever show such moral bankruptcy or racist political expediency as Howard's Kids Overboard, Tampa and Intervention?
Let me know some of the disgusting things the ALP have done... Umm, the Redfern Speech, the Apology, Reconciliation... the Voice! Whenever there's positive unifying moments its the left. Whenever there's some kind of hysterical scandal it's the right... Just the nature of the beasts.

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