The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

bluediamond started the topic in

Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

burleigh Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 11:12am

gsco wrote:
Understandably going to be a venting and outpouring of emotion after the count regardless of how the cards fall.

I just want to say that this referendum is a vote of whether to modify the constitution, that’s all.

It’s not a vote of whether Australia cares about, wants to help, or wants to improve outcomes for all Aboriginal Australians. Every person wants these things regardless of the outcome, and always will.

A No win doesn’t mean that Australia does not care, is not compassionate or understanding, or is racist. It just means that on this issue the people of this country don’t want to modify the constitution.

Australia has for decades tried its hardest, is currently trying its hardest, and will continue to try its hardest will into the future to do everything it can for Aboriginal Australians.

Regardless of the outcome, Australia will wake up the next morning and ask itself “ok what is the best way forward from here to help Aboriginal Australians?”

Hopefully no matter what the outcome Australia as a nation can accept it and move forward positively.

If the No vote wins I personally would be supportive of a Voice body created in legislation.

Well said GSCO

andy-mac Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 11:14am

gsco wrote:
Understandably going to be a venting and outpouring of emotion after the count regardless of how the cards fall.

I just want to say that this referendum is a vote of whether to modify the constitution, that’s all.

It’s not a vote of whether Australia cares about, wants to help, or wants to improve outcomes for all Aboriginal Australians. Every person wants these things regardless of the outcome, and always will.

A No win doesn’t mean that Australia does not care, is not compassionate or understanding, or is racist. It just means that on this issue the people of this country don’t want to modify the constitution.

Australia has for decades tried its hardest, is currently trying its hardest, and will continue to try its hardest will into the future to do everything it can for Aboriginal Australians.

Regardless of the outcome, Australia will wake up the next morning and ask itself “ok what is the best way forward from here to help Aboriginal Australians?”

Hopefully no matter what the outcome Australia as a nation can accept it and move forward positively.

If the No vote wins I personally would be supportive of a Voice body created in legislation.

Was not the Voice put together by many different groups of FNP's on how they can improve on closing the gap. Having it in the constitution was requested so any government couldn't just cancel it at a whim.
The 'No' win will make no difference to me, but feel it is a big middle finger from Australia to the vast majority of indigenous people. Sad.
I'm voting Yes.

burleigh Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 11:15am

andy-mac wrote:
gsco wrote:
Understandably going to be a venting and outpouring of emotion after the count regardless of how the cards fall.

I just want to say that this referendum is a vote of whether to modify the constitution, that’s all.

It’s not a vote of whether Australia cares about, wants to help, or wants to improve outcomes for all Aboriginal Australians. Every person wants these things regardless of the outcome, and always will.

A No win doesn’t mean that Australia does not care, is not compassionate or understanding, or is racist. It just means that on this issue the people of this country don’t want to modify the constitution.

Australia has for decades tried its hardest, is currently trying its hardest, and will continue to try its hardest will into the future to do everything it can for Aboriginal Australians.

Regardless of the outcome, Australia will wake up the next morning and ask itself “ok what is the best way forward from here to help Aboriginal Australians?”

Hopefully no matter what the outcome Australia as a nation can accept it and move forward positively.

If the No vote wins I personally would be supportive of a Voice body created in legislation.

Was not the Voice put together by many different groups of FNP's on how they can improve on closing the gap. Having it in the constitution was requested so any government couldn't just cancel it at a whim.
The 'No' win will make no difference to me, but feel it is a big middle finger from Australia to the vast majority of indigenous people. Sad.
I'm voting Yes.

That’s what they want you to believe.

AndyM Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 11:18am

"Regardless of the outcome, Australia will wake up the next morning and ask itself “ok what is the best way forward from here to help Aboriginal Australians?”"

How to help Indigenous Australians?
That's what the Uluru Statement from the Heart, the regional dialogues and the National Constitutional Convention decided over the past decade or so.
The question has already been answered.

harrycoopr Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 11:18am

gsco wrote:
Understandably going to be a venting and outpouring of emotion after the count regardless of how the cards fall.

I just want to say that this referendum is a vote of whether to modify the constitution, that’s all.

It’s not a vote of whether Australia cares about, wants to help, or wants to improve outcomes for all Aboriginal Australians. Every person wants these things regardless of the outcome, and always will.

A No win doesn’t mean that Australia does not care, is not compassionate or understanding, or is racist. It just means that on this issue the people of this country don’t want to modify the constitution.

Australia has for decades tried its hardest, is currently trying its hardest, and will continue to try its hardest will into the future to do everything it can for Aboriginal Australians.

Regardless of the outcome, Australia will wake up the next morning and ask itself “ok what is the best way forward from here to help Aboriginal Australians?”

Hopefully no matter what the outcome Australia as a nation can accept it and move forward positively.

If the No vote wins I personally would be supportive of a Voice body created in legislation.

Well, no. Many and i mean many people don't give a fuk about blackfellas and wished they were dealt with more thoroughly years ago so we didn't have a "problem " now. Don't underestimate the level of racism in this country - Howard and Hanson capitalised on it. Aboriginal people know this and are proud to have survived such an onslaught and continue to show the "whitec*nts" they're here for the long haul.
Many No people are voting no regardless of the fact that it won't affect them at all. They just don't want blackfellas accessing any more power... #boycottindo has said it straight out. Many people believe the blackfellas get too much already!!

harrycoopr Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 11:26am

bonza wrote:
"Let me know some of the disgusting things the ALP have done"

here' a recent one.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-06/mark-mcgowan-new-jobs-bhp-mineral...

Yeah i said the lefts less than perfect... when it comes to pollies i imagine a good percentage are there for themselves... im talking about major issues and policies

harrycoopr Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 11:34am

Regardless of the outcome the reffo has opened many people's eyes to the problems affecting Aboriginal people and their communities... it has highlighted the colonial history and the Sovereignty never ceded... it has actually opened the way, successful or not, for much more political awareness and ongoing activism into the future. It's been a large wave but not the Last Wave!
I'm looking forward to participating in a new thread called TreatyTime and seeing what new crap burley and #boycottindo can come up with.

adam12 Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 11:47am

indo-dreaming wrote:
I dont trust Victorians especially after voting Dan back in but this is a good sign, hopefully Vic and NSW are No states, taking away any hope of the voice getting up.

So here's the thing Indo, for all your effort and the gloating on this thread that the referendum will fail what has been quietly going on this whole time is that the Victorian government has already put in place a Voice, the First Peoples Assembly, and has already established a Treaty Authority, both with bipartisan support, and is already well advanced in negotiating a treaty with FNP. I expect the other states will follow this lead, particularly if the referendum fails.
So whether enshrined in the federal constitution or not, which I have told you all along is no big deal, there will be a Voice to state parliaments and treaties and all the other outcomes from the Voice you feared. Over 30,000 native title claims still on the books, treaties, state Voices and an emboldened pro Voice constituency embittered by the defeat of the federal referendum, with Labor governments in all the mainland states.
What you perceive as a victory is merely pyrrhic.
The status quo is already finished.
FNP will get their Voice, and treaty, regardless of the outcome on Saturday. In fact I would suggest that when the state voice process is complete, you will be wishing the federal one got up because the state ones will go further.
So if No wins this weekend, enjoy it, because you are already amongst the first Australians living with a FNP Voice that is currently negotiating a treaty that will be made on your behalf and will cover your property and local area down there at Woolamai.
"hopefully Vic and NSW are No states, taking away any hope of the voice getting up."
There is already one up in Victoria, treaty soon.
Let that sink in.

soggydog Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 11:59am

bonza wrote:
"Let me know some of the disgusting things the ALP have done"

here' a recent one.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-06/mark-mcgowan-new-jobs-bhp-mineral...

Ben Wyatt, former treasurer under McGowan going to the boards of Rio and Woodside. New Premier Cook criticism of the ABC coverage of Riot Squad ambush of protesters at the home of Woodside CEO. Shall we go on?

truebluebasher Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 12:14pm

Review on Breaking News [L] Apologizes to [NO] voters for denying their Voice to be Heard.
Just saying ... Premature [NO] Postal Voters must reapply to make yer Cone of Silence count...
11th Oct Wed -6pm (Tomorrow) AEC deadline for [LNP] scammed [NO] Zombies to re-apply.

Sure! Coulda shoulda said nuthin...but tbb is committed to honest neutral assist...no apologies!

Voldemorts Harvesting of Souls & feasting on Zombie Brainz has been declared Invalid by AEC.
AEC : "Be alarmed! Feasting on unripened Zombie Brains could result in a Mass Brain Freeze."

30 Aug : PM announced Reffo date.
Dementor Voldemort begins harvesting Souls of the Unknown Zombies...

[NP] Jacinta +[L] Liddle...Top 10 Letter Bomb [ If ya Don't Know then kindly let us feast on yer Brainz ]
This was the First politicization funnelling of 'Legit' AEC Aboriginal Votes to exploit Party coffers.
[LNP] "If you can't get to a Polling Booth on Reffo Day" [ U Can Vote VIP Early ] Trust Us!
Voldemort began wheel-barrowing deaf dumb & blind Voice contestants into the [L] Shark Tank...'Wot!'
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/sep/05/liberals-accused-...

I don't know Zombie : "Our bodies are your Vessel Voldemort...please enter us & feast on our brainz!"

Voldemort then regurgitates their entrails via QR code hotlinking via dodgy [LNP] 2022 Rego Plates
Voldemort gets his Zombie Xrays & Blood Types & Zombies get fed buckets of [L] Spam & Puke!

AEC :
"Potentially Misleading as Postal Votes don't even exist as yet...well durr!"
"We recommend you allow us to officially rig up Zombie online enrollment...better quality of Spam!"

11 Sept GG issues the Voice Writ (Start of Postal Vote applications) > [L] Already done that...Losers!
$Billion Zombie Babies tried Postal Voting before P&O Voice Evacuation Cruises...were left high'n'dry.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/oct/09/indigenous-voice-...

11 Oct [LNP] [NO] mob apologizes.
[AEC] : Grow more Brainz & Catch Covid or some shit...to avoid crush of 2 people on Polling day!

Just saying tbb never got posted a booklet...can't guarantee you'll get yer Postal Pack on time...
Hot Tip...Want yer Voice Heard...
Hit the booth sooner than Wed' night cut off or queue for Voldemort's Brainz trust Sausage!

[LNP] HQ Greedy Fuckerz Plan B ~ Cone of Silence Emergency Exploitation Voice Vote...

indo-dreaming Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 12:40pm

gsco wrote:
Understandably going to be a venting and outpouring of emotion after the count regardless of how the cards fall.

I just want to say that this referendum is a vote of whether to modify the constitution, that’s all.

It’s not a vote of whether Australia cares about, wants to help, or wants to improve outcomes for all Aboriginal Australians. Every person wants these things regardless of the outcome, and always will.

A No win doesn’t mean that Australia does not care, is not compassionate or understanding, or is racist. It just means that on this issue the people of this country don’t want to modify the constitution.

Australia has for decades tried its hardest, is currently trying its hardest, and will continue to try its hardest will into the future to do everything it can for Aboriginal Australians.

Regardless of the outcome, Australia will wake up the next morning and ask itself “ok what is the best way forward from here to help Aboriginal Australians?”

Hopefully no matter what the outcome Australia as a nation can accept it and move forward positively.

If the No vote wins I personally would be supportive of a Voice body created in legislation.

Very well said 100% agree.

Ive said many times before, if this fails which is likely but still not a certainty, i actually think its important that the voice be put in policy, so people can see either way if they made the correct decision.

It wont be put in policy though Albo has recently said it wont be, and i think that sucks and we are forever going to have to live with some saying "oh things would be different if the voice got up, we wouldnt have this issue, its because there is no voice", its going to be just another excuse on list of excuses..

I think its also important that its put in policy so when its brings little change and all avenues are exhausted we might actually get closer to real solutions and expectations on how change can happen which generally speaking is not one of the government bringing change but one of people making change themselves.

frog Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 12:40pm

Some recent very disappointing things the ALP has done (disgusting is the wrong word but maybe not for some), for the Yes supporters.

Anthony Albanese ("I have not read it") taking the "once in a generation opportunity" referendum and doing a slapdash job of it from Shaq to finish.

Linda Burney's I give up / I've got no idea statement:

"a No vote means no change, no progress, the status quo"

This perpetuates a sense of passivity and incompetence that surrounds her. She should resign.

Virtuousity can be pretty shallow and of little value without competence and some hard work.

harrycoopr Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 12:57pm

soggydog wrote:
bonza wrote:
"Let me know some of the disgusting things the ALP have done"

here' a recent one.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-06/mark-mcgowan-new-jobs-bhp-mineral...

Ben Wyatt, former treasurer under McGowan going to the boards of Rio and Woodside. New Premier Cook criticism of the ABC coverage of Riot Squad ambush of protesters at the home of Woodside CEO. Shall we go on?

Like i said not individual pollies... national policies etc

harrycoopr Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 12:58pm

adam12 wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
I dont trust Victorians especially after voting Dan back in but this is a good sign, hopefully Vic and NSW are No states, taking away any hope of the voice getting up.

So here's the thing Indo, for all your effort and the gloating on this thread that the referendum will fail what has been quietly going on this whole time is that the Victorian government has already put in place a Voice, the First Peoples Assembly, and has already established a Treaty Authority, both with bipartisan support, and is already well advanced in negotiating a treaty with FNP. I expect the other states will follow this lead, particularly if the referendum fails.
So whether enshrined in the federal constitution or not, which I have told you all along is no big deal, there will be a Voice to state parliaments and treaties and all the other outcomes from the Voice you feared. Over 30,000 native title claims still on the books, treaties, state Voices and an emboldened pro Voice constituency embittered by the defeat of the federal referendum, with Labor governments in all the mainland states.
What you perceive as a victory is merely pyrrhic.
The status quo is already finished.
FNP will get their Voice, and treaty, regardless of the outcome on Saturday. In fact I would suggest that when the state voice process is complete, you will be wishing the federal one got up because the state ones will go further.
So if No wins this weekend, enjoy it, because you are already amongst the first Australians living with a FNP Voice that is currently negotiating a treaty that will be made on your behalf and will cover your property and local area down there at Woolamai.
"hopefully Vic and NSW are No states, taking away any hope of the voice getting up."
There is already one up in Victoria, treaty soon.
Let that sink in.

Excellent summary adam12

harrycoopr Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 1:01pm

frog wrote:
Some recent very disappointing things the ALP has done (disgusting is the wrong word but maybe not for some), for the Yes supporters.

Anthony Albanese ("I have not read it") taking the "once in a generation opportunity" referendum and doing a slapdash job of it from Shaq to finish.

Linda Burney's I give up / I've got no idea statement:

"a No vote means no change, no progress, the status quo"

This perpetuates a sense of passivity and incompetence that surrounds her. She should resign.

Virtuousity can be pretty shallow and of little value without competence and some hard work.

Like i said, not individual pollies... Don't u remember Kids Overboard? Won the Grub an election... a not so covertly racist strategy. Disgusting political expediency.

GuySmiley Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 1:28pm

soggydog wrote:
bonza wrote:
"Let me know some of the disgusting things the ALP have done"

here' a recent one.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-06/mark-mcgowan-new-jobs-bhp-mineral...

Ben Wyatt, former treasurer under McGowan going to the boards of Rio and Woodside. New Premier Cook criticism of the ABC coverage of Riot Squad ambush of protesters at the home of Woodside CEO. Shall we go on?

Martin Ferguson, former ACTU president as minister for natural resources in the Gillard/Rudd governments flogged off the last of the country’s east coast gas reserves overseas thereby ending any chance of a national gas reserve in the eastern states. Left parliament to immediately take up a position in the mining sector. A total flog and sellout. Beyond redemption is Ferguson.

AndyM Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 1:48pm

harrycoopr wrote:
bonza wrote:
"Let me know some of the disgusting things the ALP have done"

here' a recent one.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-06/mark-mcgowan-new-jobs-bhp-mineral...

Yeah i said the lefts less than perfect... when it comes to pollies i imagine a good percentage are there for themselves... im talking about major issues and policies

Labor aren’t left.

GuySmiley Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 1:52pm

AndyM wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
bonza wrote:
"Let me know some of the disgusting things the ALP have done"

here' a recent one.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-06/mark-mcgowan-new-jobs-bhp-mineral...

Yeah i said the lefts less than perfect... when it comes to pollies i imagine a good percentage are there for themselves... im talking about major issues and policies

Labor aren’t left.

Agreed more centre right or where the Liberals sat before Howard

harrycoopr Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 1:54pm

GuySmiley wrote:
soggydog wrote:
bonza wrote:
"Let me know some of the disgusting things the ALP have done"

here' a recent one.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-06/mark-mcgowan-new-jobs-bhp-mineral...

Ben Wyatt, former treasurer under McGowan going to the boards of Rio and Woodside. New Premier Cook criticism of the ABC coverage of Riot Squad ambush of protesters at the home of Woodside CEO. Shall we go on?

Martin Ferguson, former ACTU president as minister for natural resources in the Gillard/Rudd governments flogged off the last of the country’s east coast gas reserves overseas thereby ending any chance of a national gas reserve in the eastern states. Left parliament to immediately take up a position in the mining sector. A total flog and sellout. Beyond redemption is Ferguson.

Well my point was Labor have never done a Kids Overboard or a Tampa or other purely racist political expediency

AndyM Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 1:58pm

Labor no doubt is better than the LNP but one of the biggest cons ever foisted on Australia is the idea that Labor is left wing and anything left of them is extreme.
It’s been a huge win for the political right and extremely damaging to Australia.

gsco Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 3:02pm

Australia's Labor is still left leaning economically.

It's just that it's a long and likely treacherous journey with some large adjustments required to get Australia back to the centre economically and start working on inequality.

The problem is Labor doesn't have the depth or backbone to do it, so they're going down the easier and more populist identity politics route.

Inequality is the main problem economic Australia is facing.

Inequality is an economic problem that requires economic solutions. Identity politics is the left's populist reaction to it, but going down this route will only cause social division.

The solutions to an economic problem are economic.

Actually I'd describe Australia's Labor as anti-economics.

sypkan Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 3:17pm

gsco wrote:
Australia's Labor is still left leaning economically.

It's just that it's a long and likely treacherous journey with some large adjustments required to get Australia back to the centre economically and start working on inequality.

The problem is Labor doesn't have the depth or backbone to do it, so they're going down the easier and more populist identity politics route.

Inequality is the main problem economic Australia is facing.

Inequality is an economic problem that requires economic solutions. Identity politics is the left's populist reaction to it, but going down this route will only cause social division.

The solutions to an economic problem are economic.

Actually I'd describe Australia's Labor as anti-economics.

totally!

the 'answers' are obvious...

but labor is just too ball-less / too broken / too entrenched / doing too well themselves... to do anything that matters...

the east coast gas / cost of living thingy was a prime example, where even their advocates couldn't believe they didn't make the most of the political capital they clearly had...

the examples are endless

but neoliberalism, with some pretty 'extreme' social engineering (ip) is their order of the day...

their ONLY order of the day

surely there are people in the labor party that hope for more... or at least, see this is a losing strategy long term...

it is mindblowing the distance they display from the normal day to day people...

as a wise poster on here once suggested, ...it's like the orders... the agenda... comes from a place well well above their pay grade...

sypkan Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 3:31pm

AndyM wrote:
Labor no doubt is better than the LNP but one of the biggest cons ever foisted on Australia is the idea that Labor is left wing and anything left of them is extreme.
It’s been a huge win for the political right and extremely damaging to Australia.

they just make this portrayal way way too easy for their opponents...

fish in a barrel... (see above)

the ip circus they unabashedy support is kinda extreme... with anything left of that truly extreme... (hello greens :))

meanwhile... their hopeless and hapless economic position is not even a point of discussion... barely gets air time...

when any true 'equality' should be all about economics and opportunity

especially after 3 or 4 decades of the above shit show!

sameaswas Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 3:41pm

frog wrote:
Last night, in Q&A the Minister for Indigenous Australians, Linda Burney stated earnestly to the Australian people:

"a No vote means no change, no progress, the status quo"

That suggests that she and her government:
- currently have no ideas on how to improve things.
- have no idea how to find ways to listen effectively to FNP outside of The Voice concept.

What an admission. Hardly confidence inspiring.

Competent?

how true, j.p. and w.m. have stated that their plan is every fnp shall attend school, all speak english and local "voices", not another canberra based beaurocracy made up of rellies, mates and sycophants...last bit is my opinion.

flollo Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 4:02pm

Just voted. What a weird question that was. Do we recognise the indigenous by creating a voice? Like there is no other way of recognition other than the voice. They stuffed this one up.

flollo Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 4:09pm

@frog I don’t follow news so I didn’t see it. It’s ridiculous that a minister is going around taking like that, she should resign.

Supafreak Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 4:19pm

flollo wrote:
Just voted. What a weird question that was. Do we recognise the indigenous by creating a voice? Like there is no other way of recognition other than the voice. They stuffed this one up.

Who’s they ?

andy-mac Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 4:19pm

gsco wrote:
Australia's Labor is still left leaning economically.

It's just that it's a long and likely treacherous journey with some large adjustments required to get Australia back to the centre economically and start working on inequality.

The problem is Labor doesn't have the depth or backbone to do it, so they're going down the easier and more populist identity politics route.

Inequality is the main problem economic Australia is facing.

Inequality is an economic problem that requires economic solutions. Identity politics is the left's populist reaction to it, but going down this route will only cause social division.

The solutions to an economic problem are economic.

Actually I'd describe Australia's Labor as anti-economics.

Agree or disagree with the policies, but Bill Shorten went to an election with a raft of policies to start to try and tackle some of these issues and lost an election., to Scomo the bullshitting happy clapper.
Labor probably don't have the backbone to do it, but probably mainly for the reason it would take one than more election cycle for the benefits to flow on, and by that time the Murdoch, Nine and the rest of the commentators will be screaming high taxes, bad economic managers etc etc and they will be voted out. Catch 22 kind of.
Media needs a clean out in Australia in regard to diversification and foreign ownership, and yep probably Keating who let this initially happen.

andy-mac Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 4:23pm

gsco wrote:
Australia's Labor is still left leaning economically.

It's just that it's a long and likely treacherous journey with some large adjustments required to get Australia back to the centre economically and start working on inequality.

The problem is Labor doesn't have the depth or backbone to do it, so they're going down the easier and more populist identity politics route.

Inequality is the main problem economic Australia is facing.

Inequality is an economic problem that requires economic solutions. Identity politics is the left's populist reaction to it, but going down this route will only cause social division.

The solutions to an economic problem are economic.

Actually I'd describe Australia's Labor as anti-economics.

In other areas, yep they have been disappointing.

sameaswas Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 4:21pm

Hiccups wrote:
burleigh wrote:
Vote No. why didn’t Briggs mention this in his paid ad?

Briggs wasn't paid, you heinous bullshit artist.

oxford dictionary...heinous...utterly odious or wicked.

AB briggs aka king billy!! his lyrics are heinous.

and he is the darling of the yes23 campaign and idolised by fnp youth, ffs go and listen to his evil music videos, wake up to these narcisists don't give them any power.

indo-dreaming Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 4:24pm

flollo wrote:
Just voted. What a weird question that was. Do we recognise the indigenous by creating a voice? Like there is no other way of recognition other than the voice. They stuffed this one up.

What's weirder is there is no mention of the word "advisory" in either the ballot question or the new chapter for constitution.

Supafreak Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 4:23pm

burleigh wrote:
gsco wrote:
Understandably going to be a venting and outpouring of emotion after the count regardless of how the cards fall.

I just want to say that this referendum is a vote of whether to modify the constitution, that’s all.

It’s not a vote of whether Australia cares about, wants to help, or wants to improve outcomes for all Aboriginal Australians. Every person wants these things regardless of the outcome, and always will.

A No win doesn’t mean that Australia does not care, is not compassionate or understanding, or is racist. It just means that on this issue the people of this country don’t want to modify the constitution.

Australia has for decades tried its hardest, is currently trying its hardest, and will continue to try its hardest will into the future to do everything it can for Aboriginal Australians.

Regardless of the outcome, Australia will wake up the next morning and ask itself “ok what is the best way forward from here to help Aboriginal Australians?”

Hopefully no matter what the outcome Australia as a nation can accept it and move forward positively.

If the No vote wins I personally would be supportive of a Voice body created in legislation.

Well said GSCO

Do you really believe “ every person “ wants to improve outcomes for FNP ? Seriously ?

Supafreak Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 4:53pm

@gsco , I honestly can’t believe you wrote this “ Australia has for decades tried its hardest, is currently trying its hardest, and will continue to try its hardest will into the future to do everything it can for Aboriginal Australians. “ …….again, seriously ?

sypkan Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 4:53pm

"Do you really believe “ every person “ wants to improve outcomes for FNP ? Seriously ?"

a better question would be...

does winnie cooper really believe a significant perentage do not want to see improved outcomes for FNP?

the percentage of miserable fucks that don't want to see improved outcomes would be sub 5%...

probably significantly sub 5%...

there may be signifiant disagreement on how to see improvement...

but practically no one wants that boot on the neck some constantly carry on about

this is where the argument has gone wayward... apparently if you're not YES, you're satan's devil child, who is racist, ugly, and only want to keep the n...... in their place...

pure bullshit

basically it's the age old battle of ideologies...

one side thinks you need to pull yourself up by your bootstraps

the other side loves free stuff

on a spectrum... but that's what it boils down to...

the 'hate' is only between ideologues

Supafreak Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 4:58pm

In my opinion the LNP doesn’t give 2 fucks what happens to Australian Aboriginal’s .

harrycoopr Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 4:59pm

adam12 wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
I dont trust Victorians especially after voting Dan back in but this is a good sign, hopefully Vic and NSW are No states, taking away any hope of the voice getting up.

So here's the thing Indo, for all your effort and the gloating on this thread that the referendum will fail what has been quietly going on this whole time is that the Victorian government has already put in place a Voice, the First Peoples Assembly, and has already established a Treaty Authority, both with bipartisan support, and is already well advanced in negotiating a treaty with FNP. I expect the other states will follow this lead, particularly if the referendum fails.
So whether enshrined in the federal constitution or not, which I have told you all along is no big deal, there will be a Voice to state parliaments and treaties and all the other outcomes from the Voice you feared. Over 30,000 native title claims still on the books, treaties, state Voices and an emboldened pro Voice constituency embittered by the defeat of the federal referendum, with Labor governments in all the mainland states.
What you perceive as a victory is merely pyrrhic.
The status quo is already finished.
FNP will get their Voice, and treaty, regardless of the outcome on Saturday. In fact I would suggest that when the state voice process is complete, you will be wishing the federal one got up because the state ones will go further.
So if No wins this weekend, enjoy it, because you are already amongst the first Australians living with a FNP Voice that is currently negotiating a treaty that will be made on your behalf and will cover your property and local area down there at Woolamai.
"hopefully Vic and NSW are No states, taking away any hope of the voice getting up."
There is already one up in Victoria, treaty soon.
Let that sink in.

THIS.

harrycoopr Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 5:05pm

Supafreak wrote:
In my opinion the LNP doesn’t give 2 fucks what happens to Australian Aboriginal’s .

Exactly. Labor are the only ones who try things...Hawkeys Makarratta talk... Keatings Redfern speech... Rudds Apology... Albos Voice... EVERYTIME the LNP get in Aboriginal issues disappear off the radar OR are so negative they need "interventions" with the Army no less. Of course they don't give a fuck.. their ancestors were busy grabbing all the land at the start.

sypkan Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 5:14pm

I think that is wrong supafreak

the lnp definitely have a miserable element

and the silverspooners definitely lack empathy

but really, it's about belief...

and belief trumps everything, information, knowledge, statistics, studies... whatever side you land on... belief is super sticky...

many liberals have made it their mission to 'help' the indigenous cause, ffs I think even t. abbott is genuine in his concern... and I can't stand the cunt!

I think gsco is correct in saying oz has tried and tried and tried...

and YES is right in saying a lot of it just hasn't worked

the argument is where to from here...

and that is where labor has fucked this up... no acknowledgement of what hasn't worked... and what we will do that is fundamentally different...

and so, ...half arsed or secretive is now the 'debate'...

which is most unfortunate...

and a massive lost opportunity...

Supafreak Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 5:20pm

Supafreak wrote:
Turncoat tony https://x.com/shitfuckery1/status/1711344479033229792?s=46&t=5RczxwAfzXe...

Don’t listen so much to the commentary from shitfuckery, listen to TA and who was it that cut $500 million in funding ?

Supafreak Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 5:22pm

Supafreak wrote:
Some get it , some don’t. https://x.com/aaronsmith333/status/1711272742602113378?s=46&t=5RczxwAfzX...

This kid nails it

velocityjohnno Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 5:24pm

So if Vic and then following states will have Voice/Truth telling/Treaty anyway, why have a referendum? It could be all in place and Aboriginal people's voices heard without all the divisive bullshit of this campaign (both sides)?

Supafreak Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 5:29pm

sypkan wrote:
I think that is wrong supafreak

the lnp definitely have a miserable element

and the silverspooners definitely lack empathy

but really, it's about belief...

and belief trumps everything, information, knowledge, statistics, studies... whatever side you land on... belief is super sticky...

many liberals have made it their mission to 'help' the indigenous cause, ffs I think even t. abbott is genuine in his concern... and I can't stand the cunt!

I think gsco is correct in saying oz has tried and tried and tried...

and YES is right in saying a lot of it just hasn't worked

the argument is where to from here...

and that is where labor has fucked this up... no acknowledgement of what hasn't worked... and what we will do that is fundamentally different...

and so, ...half arsed or secretive is now the 'debate'...

which is most unfortunate...

and a massive lost opportunity...

I think you’re wrong sypkan if you agree with gsco statement “ Australia has for decades tried its hardest, is currently trying its hardest, and will continue to try its hardest will into the future to do everything it can for Aboriginal Australians. “……… throwing money at a problem is not trying your hardest .

sypkan Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 5:29pm

^^^ well that was about recognition in the constitution...

what labor has proposed goes well beyond that

and, like it or not... many people are very uncomfortable about putting a race based line in that document...

it does seem a mammoth step backwards to me

as gsco has noted, all of our recent history, we have tried to move away from such things... that is 'progress'...

velocityjohnno Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 5:30pm

Also, if no gets up does this infer that these legislated bodies and processes are against the will of the electorate? What happens in that instance? Usually a state government is elected for a number of years and their margin of votes has the implicit understanding that the will of the electorate gives them a mandate, what happens if they seem to be legislating against how a state may have voted federally on the same issue. Really interesting questions could spring forth, can't say I've seen permutations like this in AusPol before.

sypkan Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 5:33pm

"I think you’re wrong sypkan if you agree with gsco statement “ Australia has for decades tried its hardest, is currently trying its hardest, and will continue to try its hardest will into the future to do everything it can for Aboriginal Australians. “……… throwing money at a problem is not trying your hardest ."

true

but it is a great assuager of guilt...

indo-dreaming Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 5:45pm

harrycoopr wrote:
adam12 wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
I dont trust Victorians especially after voting Dan back in but this is a good sign, hopefully Vic and NSW are No states, taking away any hope of the voice getting up.

So here's the thing Indo, for all your effort and the gloating on this thread that the referendum will fail what has been quietly going on this whole time is that the Victorian government has already put in place a Voice, the First Peoples Assembly, and has already established a Treaty Authority, both with bipartisan support, and is already well advanced in negotiating a treaty with FNP. I expect the other states will follow this lead, particularly if the referendum fails.
So whether enshrined in the federal constitution or not, which I have told you all along is no big deal, there will be a Voice to state parliaments and treaties and all the other outcomes from the Voice you feared. Over 30,000 native title claims still on the books, treaties, state Voices and an emboldened pro Voice constituency embittered by the defeat of the federal referendum, with Labor governments in all the mainland states.
What you perceive as a victory is merely pyrrhic.
The status quo is already finished.
FNP will get their Voice, and treaty, regardless of the outcome on Saturday. In fact I would suggest that when the state voice process is complete, you will be wishing the federal one got up because the state ones will go further.
So if No wins this weekend, enjoy it, because you are already amongst the first Australians living with a FNP Voice that is currently negotiating a treaty that will be made on your behalf and will cover your property and local area down there at Woolamai.
"hopefully Vic and NSW are No states, taking away any hope of the voice getting up."
There is already one up in Victoria, treaty soon.
Let that sink in.

THIS.

All this post shows me is Adam has not been listening to me or other No voters on why we are voting No, he is completely disconnected from what looks like is the majority view point.

The end game is to prevent this going into the constitution, there is nothing else after that i couldn't care less if states do their own voices im not a fan of treaties but im not overly concerned about these ones being done by states, and i sure am not one of those people who think their land is in danger.

Like ive said many times before and again today, i and most No voters dont even have an issue with a voice in policy only, actually id welcome it. (see my post from earlier today)

Supafreak Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 5:43pm

sypkan wrote:
^^^ well that was about recognition in the constitution...

what labor has proposed goes well beyond that

and, like it or not... many people are very uncomfortable about putting a race based line in that document...

it does seem a mammoth step backwards to me

as gsco has noted, all of our recent history, we have tried to move away from such things... that is 'progress'...

Yes it was about recognition in the constitution, exactly sypkan , so why didn’t TA go through with it ? The guy was like scomo, say anything to get elected, do you find dutton also is sincere towards aboriginals ?

Hiccups Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 5:49pm

sameaswas wrote:
Hiccups wrote:
burleigh wrote:
Vote No. why didn’t Briggs mention this in his paid ad?

Briggs wasn't paid, you heinous bullshit artist.

oxford dictionary...heinous...utterly odious or wicked.

AB briggs aka king billy!! his lyrics are heinous.

and he is the darling of the yes23 campaign and idolised by fnp youth, ffs go and listen to his evil music videos, wake up to these narcisists don't give them any power.

Fuck off boomer. If you were an adult in 1956, you'd be clutching your pearls over Elvis on Ed Sullivan.

Supafreak Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 5:55pm

sypkan wrote:
^^^ well that was about recognition in the constitution...

what labor has proposed goes well beyond that

and, like it or not... many people are very uncomfortable about putting a race based line in that document...

it does seem a mammoth step backwards to me

as gsco has noted, all of our recent history, we have tried to move away from such things... that is 'progress'...

What labor has proposed ? It’s not” labor’s “ voice to parliament.

sypkan Tuesday, 10 Oct 2023 at 6:02pm

"...do you find dutton also is sincere towards aboriginals ?"

I think he is absolutely full of shit

but I still don't think he wants them to live in poverty

I don't believe for a minute his main motivation is to keep them in their place, as some would have you believe...

he is a law and order man... that brings certain 'beliefs' with it...

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