The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

bluediamond started the topic in

Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

gsco Thursday, 28 Sep 2023 at 7:04pm

great post Sypkan

Fliplid wrote:
@gsco:
“The dot points present the early settlers as only bad, destructive and murderous, and the FNPs as only positive and contributing.”

This is from the same website for year 9 and suggests a broader discussion than the example you have put up.

History 7-10, Year 9 | Knowledge and understanding - Making and transforming the Australian nation (1750–1914)
different experiences and perspectives of colonisers, settlers and First Nations Australians and the impact of these experiences on changes to Australian society's ideas, beliefs and values

evaluate how common and conflicting values within and across cultural and linguistic groups affect the presentation of cultural perspectives and world views

Thanks. These are the dot points in that section relating to FNPs:
- describing the impact of changes brought about by non-Indigenous groups on First Nations Australians
- exploring the perspectives and experiences of First Nations Australians, including discussing terms in relation to Australian history such as “invasion”, “colonisation” and “settlement”, and why these continue to be contested within society today

The focus is still on the impact on FNPs, and on their perspectives and experiences, which is great but I'd suggest thus reinforcing the previously mentioned biases and highly selective material, and not giving a balanced description of events and interactions over the say 150yrs.

andy-mac Thursday, 28 Sep 2023 at 7:56pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
andy-mac wrote:
gsco wrote:
andy-mac there's even whole new schools (even in Australia) being set up by concerned parents in backlash to the woke left progressive bias in schools

seems that you're not paying attention

And basesix & owgoodaquads, it’s outright biased, not neutral or balanced

I work in secondary education, and your comment is ridiculous.
Sorry.
Have a look at the curriculum, where is wokeness and leftism being taught? Here's a clue, it's not.
Ok assemblies that happen a couple of times a term may have welcome to country, but that is as radical as it gets. At our school it is done by local indigenous students. Always followed by National Anthem.

Hmmm it's actually no surprise that you are a teacher Blindboy was a teacher too, IMHO it much more likely that teachers are left leaning, even if its not in the curriculum in most subjects your natural bias will come through.

My daughter is only in grade 4 and ive noticed her coming home and saying things the teacher has said that are very politically bias even to do with party politics.

@Indo
I've done a lot more than teaching in my working life. Fact is it is the least amount of time in any real line of work. Yep old carnt in mid 50's.
This stereotype of teachers being left wing is kind of bewildering to me and totally inaccurate.
Some of my colleagues are probably further to the right than you, some are smart and hard working, some are lazy whingers and some are just great people, and some who took on the profession for lifestyle reasons, yep good hours for family and holidays.
Saying left leaning though you may have a point, as generally the higher the education someone has the more critical thinking they have obtained, hence they reject right wing populist crap. That does not make them left wing.

andy-mac Thursday, 28 Sep 2023 at 7:59pm

And @Indo you know the PDI party was considered left wing in Indonesia?Maybe you should change to Golkar symbol....

harrycoopr Thursday, 28 Sep 2023 at 8:10pm

velocityjohnno wrote:
My son got 'the colonialism of waste management' as part of a science degree.

Sounds good... interesting

Reform Thursday, 28 Sep 2023 at 8:29pm

C'mon Jelly,
Time for another cool and relevant music vid, I think these guys have covered their stuff! :)

Fliplid Thursday, 28 Sep 2023 at 8:47pm

gsco wrote:
The focus is still on the impact on FNPs, and on their perspectives and experiences, which is great but I'd suggest thus reinforcing the previously mentioned biases and highly selective material, and not giving a balanced description of events and interactions over the say 150yrs.

There are 24 course components and 2 or 3 are related to First Nation peoples, the rest deal with other countries, social and economic development in Australia and internationally, war, etc, with no mention of First Nations people so the balance you are after is already in the course.

I have a cousin who is a Torres Strait Islander who in high school (during the 70’s in Nth Qld) had a teacher who would regularly refer to some of the indigenous kids, including him, as “you black bastards”. From my point of view, the fact that we’ve gone from that to what is now being discussed in class rooms is an improvement

seeds Thursday, 28 Sep 2023 at 9:04pm

?si=UHkhsWXL9_84BnRo

Reform Thursday, 28 Sep 2023 at 9:32pm

Wow! So beautiful! What a treasure, thank you seeds, that's cool as!

seeds Thursday, 28 Sep 2023 at 9:36pm

One of my fave Aussies!! R.I.P.

Reform Thursday, 28 Sep 2023 at 9:56pm

Indeed!

Reform Thursday, 28 Sep 2023 at 9:58pm

Interesting historical pictorial around Port Macquarie

I focus Thursday, 28 Sep 2023 at 10:23pm

Community standards are always reflected in schools as an aside comments here about the left thing show clearly some people don't participate in any community.

Communities don't go around goose stepping yelling right wing ideology, geezuess.

seeds Thursday, 28 Sep 2023 at 10:33pm

Right on comrade. I don’t think he participates in anything because he’s a bit umm, you know, umm…….

sypkan Friday, 29 Sep 2023 at 1:02am

I think he's just returned from an extended stay in the land of the real comrades, a land he loves... but...

and when one returns from living overseas, one comes home with fresh eyes, and sees stuff the frogs in boilng water seem totally oblivious to...

australia is totally unique in its history, make up, culture, and trajectory. which may seem like the stating of the bloody obvious... but it really truly is 'the lucky country' ...in every sense of the term... the opportunities and support of the state are off the charts relative to the rest of the globe, and it often seems the managing of opulence is our biggest dilemma - especially when one just returnns from living overseas...

it's not really a simple left versus right thing, it's the contemporary left that has drifted into dreamland versus the old school left, the conservative right, and whatever you wanna call the new school nutty right...

the thing with the new school nutty left, is a lot of its ideas and concepts have developed in a vacuum. a vacuumous bubble protected by cancel culture, deplatforming, safe spaces, and what gsco called guerilla journalism...

the exact opposite of the 'battle of ideas' and styles of debate that had once served us - and academia - well... these concepts WERE the basis of academia... once...

we saw this with the 'black emu' saga, where some good story telling, some good historical recording, and a dose of fancifulness, became the academic dogma of the day... then, when some real academic rigor came along to challenge it - as it should... a whole cohort of the established academia were triggered into irrationality...

very reactionary if you will...

the fact is, most people can blend, decipher, and appreciate more than one version of history - as they should...

I have confidence most australians are still on the old school left side of the equation, and 'a fair go' is still a large part of our culture

we are just in a weird time where over the top globalisation and neoliberalism have totally undermined these values, as everyone feels ripped off and forced into the race to the bottom of individualism...

labor has shown glimmers of hope of turning this around, but frankly, their actions show otherwise

from my perspective, parts of the contemporary left just need to grow the fuck up, stop being so bloody reactionary - yes, reactionary... and learn the age old art of respect and debate again...

australia really is at a crossroads, we all can do better than the social media driven hysterics that have now developed across the political spectrum as the norm

truebluebasher Friday, 29 Sep 2023 at 1:29am

Voice Voting (Start) Days 1 & 2
P [108] tbb Wed 27th 4:19 : https://www.swellnet.com/forums/wax/521681?page=107
Voice Voting (Cont..) Days 3 & 4
Logistical Concerns...
Seems as if Tiwi Is Tragedy + Kinda Low turn outs have got AEC on the back foot...
AEC : We did this + 100's of that... & spent ages on all that other stuff...
AEC : We got Info in 20 Languages
Booklet (4 languages on time) is still only available in 13 Languages

Day 1 was a trickle
Tiwi Is : Walk Out for Sorry Business...(Local Youth Suicide)
Scored this TikTok Courier Mail somewhat (Part 2) return to Tiwi Island Booth
Does mention Lot of Youth at funeral/s...
https://www.tiktok.com/@couriermail/video/7283762834050141442

Torres Strait Islanders : Elders ~We know nothing about The Voice
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/sep/28/indigenous-voice-...
[Factcheck] TSI booklets are Available but only recently.
AEC : Response ...we worked hard for enrollment...(A lot of AEC defensive walls goin' up!)
Seems as if Remote Roll out is testing ~ not going to plan...more Complaints than thank yous.

AEC enrollment was to sure up 10 swing seats for 2 Govt terms!
The Voice was never the Prize but merely the additional Icing!
(Reads) AEC put exhaustive resource into Enrollment > Bugger all time Poppin' Up at Pop Ups!
That's headlining across the Top End as Remote rollout whizzes by like a 'Screaming' Ice cream Van!

Naiuyu : Poll Opened for One Day & packed Up...(Bye!) Locals were unaware & missed out!
Mowanjum : Only a small number turned out to Vote.
Barclay : Bushfires
Flat Tyres / Locked Gates
AEC : Days 1+2 said they weren't sure if they put posters up...(Cont...)
AEC : "We're once again checkin' to see if we even bothered to put posters up!"
*In case ya think tbb is havin' a lend...Nope! AEC keep saying this...not media or tbb! Go Figure!
https://nit.com.au/27-09-2023/7856/Mixed-reviews-as-voting-in-remote-com...

Thorpedo II hits Remote NT
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12569279/lidiathorpe-indigenous...
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-28/lidia-thorpe-urges-remote-communi...

AEC : "Reckon were slightly ahead of 2022 Fed election...(50% Oz wide turnout of Aborigines)

AEC / ABC [YES ] Bias...
Day 1/2 tbb pointed out Sign Pairing + 100% [YES] Signs + Very few [NO] Votes...
Continuing further upon this...

This [NO] reviewer does acknowledge the low 10-30% [NO] Vote representation.
His dedicated review is worth sharing for commitment alone...one can read AEC lead
Ok! So the Hodad don't register that AEC say [NO] don't even bother to show up...so can't be filmed!
Like ABC can only film wot they see...none can see [NO] Resulting in 100% [yes] AEC Sign Coverage!

tbb equally warned ABC / AEC [YES] are walking a fine line to see what bias level is Ok!
Just saying that tbb warned this will be exposed > Old dude is sniffin' out [YES] AEC Sign Pairing.
He's almost onto the Pink/Purple Colour coordination...won't take him long!
Anyhow! tbb thinks it's cool coz he's not agro...just committed to the [NO] cause in exacting detail.
Check out detailed [NO] Ombudswoman complaint on ABC Booth bias + (some shit hot time stampin')
https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/the-voice/2023/09/no-doubt-whatsoever-ho...

Postal Votes :
NT 5,000 Applications ahead of Roll out .
Oz 1.4m ( Similar to 2022 )

Of course ya still get ya Pod...
Get ya head phones on & get dirty ya slack bastards...don't be shy!
Aussie Chick Katie's Pod is shit hot : AEC Review + Q&A of upcoming Roll Out!
Reckon it's more informative than the nutters on yer Telly...dives in boots'n'all.
https://omny.fm/shows/360-with-katie-woolf/australian-electoral-officer-...

{ Bumper Bonus } Do we still get them...sure!
Migrant Vote : (On the Ground) ABC Daily Motion Ad Mag Style Vidz
Refreshingly Neutral & Open (6 part Video Series) that interviews Migrants
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8odm57

Ex Pats Ex PM London's Drag Version of The Voice (That's Dedication)
Should Drag out a few more [YES] signs
https://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2023/09/gillards-drag-queen-london-yes-...

AEC Ability Review by A11y Kate
https://a11ykat.medium.com/beyond-ramps-how-australias-upcoming-referend...

Voice Aftermath After Party Blog ( Reddit)
https://www.reddit.com/r/australian/comments/16u0o97/15th_october_and_th...

Supafreak Friday, 29 Sep 2023 at 3:05am

Several times I’ve had to laugh when indod has posted how it was a david & goliath battle as the yes23 campaign had much more money behind them , he never mentions JPs “ beacon of light “ https://murdochroyalcommission.org.au/wp-content/uploads/Poisinging-the-... https://murdochroyalcommission.org.au/interim-report/?fbclid=IwAR2z7NMFp....

gsco Friday, 29 Sep 2023 at 6:06am

another great post sypkan, and I'm not saying that because you're somewhat defending me, but because it's quite close to many things I've been trying to say but is better said and more relatable.

Returning to the topic, I'd quite simply say one thing about The Voice:

Our constitution is not a cultural document whose purpose is to celebrate "diversity and inclusion". It's actually a legal document (well it's even more than this) governing the structure and operation of our political and legal institutions, and our overall system of government.

Modifying it as proposed by The Voice shows just how deep of an echo chamber and silo this new unhinged contemporary progressive left is living in, how detached from reality it is, and how contemptuous it is of our central, foundational institutions and their purpose, institutions that guarantee the very prosperous, cohesive, free, equal and truely blessed country that we are.

andy-mac Friday, 29 Sep 2023 at 6:26am

sypkan wrote:
I think he's just returned from an extended stay in the land of the real comrades, a land he loves... but...

and when one returns from living overseas, one comes home with fresh eyes, and sees stuff the frogs in boilng water seem totally oblivious to...

australia is totally unique in its history, make up, culture, and trajectory. which may seem like the stating of the bloody obvious... but it really truly is 'the lucky country' ...in every sense of the term... the opportunities and support of the state are off the charts relative to the rest of the globe, and it often seems the managing of opulence is our biggest dilemma - especially when one just returnns from living overseas...

it's not really a simple left versus right thing, it's the contemporary left that has drifted into dreamland versus the old school left, the conservative right, and whatever you wanna call the new school nutty right...

the thing with the new school nutty left, is a lot of its ideas and concepts have developed in a vacuum. a vacuumous bubble protected by cancel culture, deplatforming, safe spaces, and what gsco called guerilla journalism...

the exact opposite of the 'battle of ideas' and styles of debate that had once served us - and academia - well... these concepts WERE the basis of academia... once...

we saw this with the 'black emu' saga, where some good story telling, some good historical recording, and a dose of fancifulness, became the academic dogma of the day... then, when some real academic rigor came along to challenge it - as it should... a whole cohort of the established academia were triggered into irrationality...

very reactionary if you will...

the fact is, most people can blend, decipher, and appreciate more than one version of history - as they should...

I have confidence most australians are still on the old school left side of the equation, and 'a fair go' is still a large part of our culture

we are just in a weird time where over the top globalisation and neoliberalism have totally undermined these values, as everyone feels ripped off and forced into the race to the bottom of individualism...

labor has shown glimmers of hope of turning this around, but frankly, their actions show otherwise

from my perspective, parts of the contemporary left just need to grow the fuck up, stop being so bloody reactionary - yes, reactionary... and learn the age old art of respect and debate again...

australia really is at a crossroads, we all can do better than the social media driven hysterics that have now developed across the political spectrum as the norm

Great comment.
Won lotto of life being born or having privilege to live in Australia.

indo-dreaming Friday, 29 Sep 2023 at 7:29am

andy-mac wrote:
And @Indo you know the PDI party was considered left wing in Indonesia?Maybe you should change to Golkar symbol....

Kind of true but left wing in Indonesia is right wing in many ways in Australia, i mean Jokowi cleaned up the back log of those on death row in Indonesia, in Australia that would be seen as far right

Although there has been other aspects that are left wing like buying the majority of Freeport, but really that was as much about securing West Papua, he also brought in things like family health card, but i think in developing countries they do need more left wing progressive type policies while developed countries are at a point where things at least socially IMHO have gone to far in many ways so need to go back to more conservative values.

To be honest i choose the pic more just because its a cool symbol and Indo related not as a political thing, although my wife's father is obsessed with the party he volunteers for them, even has seperate photos with both Megawati and Jokowi (both with a few other members),

I dont really see myself as right wing i kind of hate the word, i see myself as more just having conservative values and ideals, some of my views actually lean left.

For example if i told an American i dont believe in god, im 100% for strong gun control, not against abortion, not against legal sex work, open to drug decrimilisaion, think USA needs a public health system more in line with what Australia has and that im happily fully vaccinated and want an EV, im sure they would laugh if i told them im a conservative while to someone like Guy im somehow far right.

BTW. total agree on your comment above though, we all really won the lotto being born into developed democratic countries.

indo-dreaming Friday, 29 Sep 2023 at 7:29am

Supafreak wrote:
Several times I’ve had to laugh when indod has posted how it was a david & goliath battle as the yes23 campaign had much more money behind them , he never mentions JPs “ beacon of light “ https://murdochroyalcommission.org.au/wp-content/uploads/Poisinging-the-... https://murdochroyalcommission.org.au/interim-report/?fbclid=IwAR2z7NMFp....

And the point?

Private media is irrelevant i dont expect Murdoch media to try to be selling the Yes vote and i dont expect the Guardian or Saturday paper to be selling the No vote.

What would be more interesting is the ABC coverage and narrative that in theory should be non bias.

Its not a level playing field anyway, it leans heavily in the favour of the Yes camp seeing the money they have and the support from big business and celebrities.

Both online and TV the yes camp advertising has an advantage of about ten times larger.

But it is what it is, hopefully its more good ideas get up bad ideas dont thing.

Reform Friday, 29 Sep 2023 at 7:36am

gsco wrote:
another great post sypkan, and I'm not saying that because you're somewhat defending me, but because it's quite close to many things I've been trying to say but is better said and more relatable.

Returning to the topic, I'd quite simply say one thing about The Voice:

Our constitution is not a cultural document whose purpose is to celebrate "diversity and inclusion". It's actually a legal document (well it's even more than this) governing the structure and operation of our political and legal institutions, and our overall system of government.

Modifying it as proposed by The Voice shows just how deep of an echo chamber and silo this new unhinged contemporary progressive left is living in, how detached from reality it is, and how contemptuous it is of our central, foundational institutions and their purpose, institutions that guarantee the very prosperous, cohesive, free, equal and truely blessed country that we are.

Hi Gsco,
All is not well as you state, cheers

Jelly Flater Friday, 29 Sep 2023 at 7:54am

https://m.

Jelly Flater Friday, 29 Sep 2023 at 7:59am

https://m.

soggydog Friday, 29 Sep 2023 at 8:36am

indo-dreaming wrote:
Supafreak wrote:
Several times I’ve had to laugh when indod has posted how it was a david & goliath battle as the yes23 campaign had much more money behind them , he never mentions JPs “ beacon of light “ https://murdochroyalcommission.org.au/wp-content/uploads/Poisinging-the-... https://murdochroyalcommission.org.au/interim-report/?fbclid=IwAR2z7NMFp....

And the point?

Private media is irrelevant i dont expect Murdoch media to try to be selling the Yes vote and i dont expect the Guardian or Saturday paper to be selling the No vote.

What would be more interesting is the ABC coverage and narrative that in theory should be non bias.

Its not a level playing field anyway, it leans heavily in the favour of the Yes camp seeing the money they have and the support from big business and celebrities.

Both online and TV the yes camp advertising has an advantage of about ten times larger.

But it is what it is, hopefully its more good ideas get up bad ideas dont thing.

A you a victim Indo? Of online bias and unfair spending. Even though the above stats suggest otherwise. Or have you developed a victim mentality through this debate? And if so, a victim of what.

san Guine Friday, 29 Sep 2023 at 8:54am

Part V – Powers of the Parliament 51. Legislative powers of the Parliament
The Parliament shall, subject to this Constitution, have power
to make laws for the peace, order, and good government of the Commonwealth with respect to:

(xxvi) the people of any race for whom it is deemed necessary to make special laws;

harrycoopr Friday, 29 Sep 2023 at 9:07am

"Our constitution is not a cultural document whose purpose is to celebrate "diversity and inclusion". It's actually a legal document (well it's even more than this) governing the structure and operation of our political and legal institutions, and our overall system of government."

Western-centric. A legal system that has oppressed Aboriginal people for 200+ years. Tjukurpa et al been around for millenia... Always was...Always will be.

andy-mac Friday, 29 Sep 2023 at 9:24am

indo-dreaming wrote:
andy-mac wrote:
And @Indo you know the PDI party was considered left wing in Indonesia?Maybe you should change to Golkar symbol....

Kind of true but left wing in Indonesia is right wing in many ways in Australia, i mean Jokowi cleaned up the back log of those on death row in Indonesia, in Australia that would be seen as far right

Although there has been other aspects that are left wing like buying the majority of Freeport, but really that was as much about securing West Papua, he also brought in things like family health card, but i think in developing countries they do need more left wing progressive type policies while developed countries are at a point where things at least socially IMHO have gone to far in many ways so need to go back to more conservative values.

To be honest i choose the pic more just because its a cool symbol and Indo related not as a political thing, although my wife's father is obsessed with the party he volunteers for them, even has seperate photos with both Megawati and Jokowi (both with a few other members),

I dont really see myself as right wing i kind of hate the word, i see myself as more just having conservative values and ideals, some of my views actually lean left.

For example if i told an American i dont believe in god, im 100% for strong gun control, not against abortion, not against legal sex work, open to drug decrimilisaion, think USA needs a public health system more in line with what Australia has and that im happily fully vaccinated and want an EV, im sure they would laugh if i told them im a conservative while to someone like Guy im somehow far right.

BTW. total agree on your comment above though, we all really won the lotto being born into developed democratic countries.

Fair points Indo, was just having a bit of a dig....

AndyM Friday, 29 Sep 2023 at 9:29am

Indo you've definitely got some views which are a long way to the right.
Not looking for an argument, just stating fact.

southernraw Friday, 29 Sep 2023 at 12:37pm

re. indigenous education. Good little article
https://education.uq.edu.au/article/2022/01/shifting-focus-indigenous-ed...

burleigh Friday, 29 Sep 2023 at 2:30pm

southernraw wrote:
re. indigenous education. Good little article
https://education.uq.edu.au/article/2022/01/shifting-focus-indigenous-ed...

Everything Southerncooked shares needs to be fact checked.

southernraw Friday, 29 Sep 2023 at 3:07pm

burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
re. indigenous education. Good little article
https://education.uq.edu.au/article/2022/01/shifting-focus-indigenous-ed...

Everything Southerncooked shares needs to be fact checked.

Care to address this post you conveniently avoided Burleigh, or are you just doing your daily faceless and baseless trolling??
"HA! This has to be the most laughable claim of this thread. So a couple of posters on the wall, an aboriginal flag flying and what, a student representative, and this is what you're basing societal changes on?? Mate, we had posters on the wall when i was at school and there was a certain respect for indigenous culture then.
But no indigenous students. Think about that. Think about all that has been kept from this group of people since settlers arrived.
Still waiting for your thoughts on why Indigenous attendance rates at school are going backwards and how this ties in with your thoughts on how Indigenous lives are improving (posters and stories on the white wall aside).
Outside of your little bubble, you might find, Australia is a huge country and within it are many different communities of Indigenous folk, and ffs, they are the ones asking for help to make their lives better.
But nup, you just bleat on about how a mostly white school, in a mostly white urban area is supposedly a sign that everythings fine and Indigenous crew are doing just fine.
Do you realise this is you talking for them? Just like you said everyone else shouldn't do?
Hypocritical beyond belief."

indo-dreaming Friday, 29 Sep 2023 at 3:51pm

soggydog wrote:
A you a victim Indo? Of online bias and unfair spending. Even though the above stats suggest otherwise. Or have you developed a victim mentality through this debate? And if so, a victim of what.

WTF A victim???...im just pointing out that of course Murdoch media is going to give more air time to the No camp, just as the Guardian and other similar media is going to give more if not all air time to the Yes camp

Its to be expected its private media they can do as they wish, but can you really argue there is no bias towards the yes case in the ABC media?

In regard to money and backing its like a battle between David & Goliath, there is no comparison you can see the backing difference here

Yes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endorsements_in_the_2023_Australian_Indige...

No
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endorsements_in_the_2023_Australian_Indige...

Regarding money- The money the yes camp have is far far far more than the no camp you can see this in every area, the yes camp is said to have up to ten times as much money as the no camp, which is reflected in stats like online advertising.

-TV advertising anyone who has watched TV of late know's the Yes camp presence is far far greater, in the last few weeks ive seen no, No campaign ads while some nights ive literally seen the Yes campaign ad 4 to 5 times in one night, just for the last few weeks media have reported the yes camp will spend 20 million.

I saw a detailed official poll the other day stats & graphs on if people had seen the Yes and No campaign ads on TV, and it was exactly the same, most saying they had seen the Yes ads while people saying they hasnt seen or couldn't recall seeing the No ads in the last few weeks.

I did try to find the data but doesn't come up in google it was a poll website and linked in an article

I think for the last few weeks the No campaign might not have even had ads, but i did see they have created a new one so i assume we will see a few now its getting to the pointy end, but there is zero chance they have anywhere near 20 million to blow on adds, is expect it would be more like 2 million

-Online presence (see stas below 1.1 million to about 180K)

-Signage the Yes camp give out free signs ive seen a number around, i read a lady asked the no camp and they said sadly they dont have a budget for this.

-Grants to promote the Yes vote, the no camp cant afford them the yes camp will give organisation up to 15K

-Then there is the backing by big business for yes vote, even BHP have donated 2 million, there is a long list of big business behind the Yes campaign, but not the No campaign as no virtue signaling in it.

-Then you have endorsements of Yes vote from all kinds of public figures outside of politics, musicians, actors even from USA rappers etc...who does the no camp have? Kamahl, Anthony Mundine & Angry Anderson

-Then you have a very long list of sporting bodies and sport clubs etc behind the Yes campaign., none for No

-Then there is councils etc backing the Yes camp, even see a pic of one council doing promo flags etc

It's not an opinion that the money and support is almost all behind the yes campaign and not the No campaign its fact.

I really look forward to your argument showing this is not true.

But end of the day money and advertising and big business, sports, celebrities can only influence things so far, like we saw with Clive Palmer last election, ultimately like i said a bad idea is a bad idea, and bad ideas are hard to sell.

sameaswas Friday, 29 Sep 2023 at 4:01pm

andy-mac wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
andy-mac wrote:
gsco wrote:
andy-mac there's even whole new schools (even in Australia) being set up by concerned parents in backlash to the woke left progressive bias in schools

seems that you're not paying attention

And basesix & owgoodaquads, it’s outright biased, not neutral or balanced

I work in secondary education, and your comment is ridiculous.
Sorry.
Have a look at the curriculum, where is wokeness and leftism being taught? Here's a clue, it's not.
Ok assemblies that happen a couple of times a term may have welcome to country, but that is as radical as it gets. At our school it is done by local indigenous students. Always followed by National Anthem.

Hmmm it's actually no surprise that you are a teacher Blindboy was a teacher too, IMHO it much more likely that teachers are left leaning, even if its not in the curriculum in most subjects your natural bias will come through.

My daughter is only in grade 4 and ive noticed her coming home and saying things the teacher has said that are very politically bias even to do with party politics.

@Indo
I've done a lot more than teaching in my working life. Fact is it is the least amount of time in any real line of work. Yep old carnt in mid 50's.
This stereotype of teachers being left wing is kind of bewildering to me and totally inaccurate.
Some of my colleagues are probably further to the right than you, some are smart and hard working, some are lazy whingers and some are just great people, and some who took on the profession for lifestyle reasons, yep good hours for family and holidays.
Saying left leaning though you may have a point, as generally the higher the education someone has the more critical thinking they have obtained, hence they reject right wing populist crap. That does not make them left wing.

andy just want to point out that all personell employed on fnp isolated communities have to sign a confidentiality clause, if they talk about their experience they can be sacked, fined and gaoled for upto 4yrs (i think 4).

about 2wks ago there was an expose on tv (i think dateline ?) about a young schoolteacher and his wife who went to work on fnp communities.
only been there a short time when he was aghast at the lack of attendance, on a good day 25% and bad day 13% he put a report in to his superiors and they ignored him, so he went public to msm...=whistleblower.
commonwealth police raided his house, charged him, confiscated material, he was sacked and went through 3yrs of harrassment and court appearaces, his pregnant wife was a victim of this state sponsored torture.
after 3 yrs of this they informed him charges dropped and no explanation as to why.

W.T.F. is all the secrecy surrounding these gated fnp isolated communities??

udo Friday, 29 Sep 2023 at 4:15pm

https://www.sbs.com.au/language/nitv-radio/en/podcast-episode/dean-foley...

andy-mac Friday, 29 Sep 2023 at 4:36pm

sameaswas wrote:
andy-mac wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
andy-mac wrote:
gsco wrote:
andy-mac there's even whole new schools (even in Australia) being set up by concerned parents in backlash to the woke left progressive bias in schools

seems that you're not paying attention

And basesix & owgoodaquads, it’s outright biased, not neutral or balanced

I work in secondary education, and your comment is ridiculous.
Sorry.
Have a look at the curriculum, where is wokeness and leftism being taught? Here's a clue, it's not.
Ok assemblies that happen a couple of times a term may have welcome to country, but that is as radical as it gets. At our school it is done by local indigenous students. Always followed by National Anthem.

Hmmm it's actually no surprise that you are a teacher Blindboy was a teacher too, IMHO it much more likely that teachers are left leaning, even if its not in the curriculum in most subjects your natural bias will come through.

My daughter is only in grade 4 and ive noticed her coming home and saying things the teacher has said that are very politically bias even to do with party politics.

@Indo
I've done a lot more than teaching in my working life. Fact is it is the least amount of time in any real line of work. Yep old carnt in mid 50's.
This stereotype of teachers being left wing is kind of bewildering to me and totally inaccurate.
Some of my colleagues are probably further to the right than you, some are smart and hard working, some are lazy whingers and some are just great people, and some who took on the profession for lifestyle reasons, yep good hours for family and holidays.
Saying left leaning though you may have a point, as generally the higher the education someone has the more critical thinking they have obtained, hence they reject right wing populist crap. That does not make them left wing.

andy just want to point out that all personell employed on fnp isolated communities have to sign a confidentiality clause, if they talk about their experience they can be sacked, fined and gaoled for upto 4yrs (i think 4).

about 2wks ago there was an expose on tv (i think dateline ?) about a young schoolteacher and his wife who went to work on fnp communities.
only been there a short time when he was aghast at the lack of attendance, on a good day 25% and bad day 13% he put a report in to his superiors and they ignored him, so he went public to msm...=whistleblower.
commonwealth police raided his house, charged him, confiscated material, he was sacked and went through 3yrs of harrassment and court appearaces, his pregnant wife was a victim of this state sponsored torture.
after 3 yrs of this they informed him charges dropped and no explanation as to why.

W.T.F. is all the secrecy surrounding these gated fnp isolated communities??

Don't know is my honest answer.
I have had friends and colleagues who have worked in Bamaga and Weipa and there are some pretty confronting stories. It's a tough gig up there.
Had one who did time in Aurukun, not an easy job. That school made the national news.
I honestly wouldn't have it in me to work in those remote communities. Unless there was good surf, but not the case in northern Queensland. ;)
Fishing is great though.

sypkan Friday, 29 Sep 2023 at 4:37pm

I actually think the abc has been surprisingly balanced with their coverage of the voice - with the exception of that shameful rmit abc 'fact check' episode...

this program was good, so much so they go against albo's super tight narrative control

http://www.abcaustralia.net.au/program/voices-of-australia/NC2330H/

the lawyer was very good, giving good insights into indigenous opinions and possible outcomes

I see the social media no platformers are unhappy with abc's coverage, complaining about giving the NO people a voice at all... sigh...

so that says something...

the no platformers were also slamming annabelle crabb for giving peter dutton a run... ffs, he's the oppostion leader! ...I find dutton particularly odious and odourous... but geez... c'mon... seriously... this thinking really is quite bizarre to me... quite authoritarian...

I see the blak soveriegn crew have flipped to yes... not sure that includes lydia, but I thought she/they would flip eventually... probably a bit of the old too little too late it would seem...

burleigh Friday, 29 Sep 2023 at 4:38pm

Will the voice save this? Southerncooker will say yes
https://instagram.com/48_capeyorkboyz_95

adam12 Friday, 29 Sep 2023 at 4:43pm

"It's not an opinion that the money and support is almost all behind the yes campaign and not the No campaign its fact.

I really look forward to your argument showing this is not true."

'Clive Palmer to launch million-dollar ad blitz for no vote in voice referendum'

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/sep/29/indigenous-voice-...

southernraw Friday, 29 Sep 2023 at 4:50pm

burleigh wrote:
Will the voice save this? Southerncooker will say yes
https://instagram.com/48_capeyorkboyz_95

I dunno mate. You don't have to engage in a meaningful conversation, but there's little point throwing little barbed comments back and forth.
Does nothing for enhancing the conversation or moving it forward, nor is it of any use to anyone else reading it.

indo-dreaming Friday, 29 Sep 2023 at 4:56pm

adam12 wrote:
"It's not an opinion that the money and support is almost all behind the yes campaign and not the No campaign its fact.

I really look forward to your argument showing this is not true."

'Clive Palmer to launch million-dollar ad blitz for no vote in voice referendum'

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/sep/29/indigenous-voice-...

Well thats kind of some good news but it still wont bring advertising budgets anywhere near level and doubt we will see any type of equal representation of advertising on TV or online.

That said I do think that advertising and support from big business and other organisations, celebrities, musicians etc hasn't had the effect they think it might have anyway, because Australian's tend to not take all that great to being told how to think in many case's it can actually turn people off.

blackers Friday, 29 Sep 2023 at 5:17pm

Indo, your mind was made up before this even started. Give it a rest

andy-mac Friday, 29 Sep 2023 at 6:53pm

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/sep/29/indigenous-voice-...

burleigh Friday, 29 Sep 2023 at 8:42pm

View this post on Instagram

Jelly Flater Friday, 29 Sep 2023 at 9:03pm

https://m.

Reform Friday, 29 Sep 2023 at 9:37pm

Jelly Flater wrote:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ex7yNsaIT8s

OMG!! Who said FNP talent is no-more equal to ours? Ha! This is other worldly! Brilliant.

southernraw Friday, 29 Sep 2023 at 10:40pm

Yeah that was epic. Cheers JF!

indo-dreaming Saturday, 30 Sep 2023 at 6:13am

burleigh wrote:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CxwylzRvxWD/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Surely this has to be the bottom of the barrel?

Reform Saturday, 30 Sep 2023 at 6:17am

indo-dreaming wrote:
burleigh wrote:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CxwylzRvxWD/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Surely this has to be the bottom of the barrel?

In your own philosophising guys "If you don't like it just ignore it"

gsco Saturday, 30 Sep 2023 at 7:29am

It’s actually the main target market of the yes campaign: the new age progressive left, aka the Woke.

burleigh Saturday, 30 Sep 2023 at 8:20am

gsco wrote:
It’s actually the main target market of the yes campaign: the new age progressive left, aka the Woke.

Nailed it. Look at the loonie humans turning up to the yes rallies. Dog/gimp mask wearing rainbow warriors with 7 pronouns depending on the time of day.

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