The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
“ BTW. You still havent addressed my question about PNG though have you?”
I know you love painting black people as being savage and backward (the closer they are to their culture of course) but I really don’t want to lie down in the mud with you.
Supafreak wrote:@burleigh did you bother looking at the last 7 posts ?
And have you looked at my post?
burleigh wrote:Supafreak wrote:@burleigh did you bother looking at the last 7 posts ?
And have you looked at my post?
Yes I did and found it absolutely pathetic that after what was previously posted you come back with this from some dickhead that you actually believe is a journalist. Do you have any idea what the voice is about? I will give you a hint what it’s not about , the colour purple.
Rabbits68 wrote:@Indo She’s entitled to a different point of view to her old man. It’s not disrespectful. Given his public presence, it’s courageous.
I thought you supported strong women. I can only imagine what high praise you would have for her if she was publicly supporting her old man’s views. Hypocrite.
Firstly forget her sex its irrelevant it could just as well be his son.
And of course if she was supporting her father that would be a positive, we all want support from family and friends. (not the opposite as in this case)
But if she or his son or current wife or parents etc had different views then fine its not ideal biut thats life, but it would be respectful for them to keep those views private definitely not be talking to media.
But of course if parents have gone through a messy break up and daughter possibly sided with mother and relationship broken down it all makes sense and sadly going public and talking to media could be a way to get back at him.
Anyway very sad and its not something id wish on any parent, i really feel for him, I also cant help think his feelings of suicide a few weeks ago had a bit more to them than just being on the receiving end of hateful comments etc from strangers.
@ I focus
As ive made clear its not about difference in opinion behind closed doors, but more the issue of going public and talking to media.
indo-dreaming wrote:I really feel for Warren it must be heartbreaking to bring up a child thinking you have brought them up well and then for her to publicly disagree like this (same deal with Lidia thorpe and her father), ive seen photos of Warren and wider family supporting him though.
Even if she didnt share his stance, she shouldn't have gone public, im sure one day she will deeply regret doing so.
I think back to my teens and twenties and the stupid arguments i had with my parents as a brain dead leftie, some things i still remember that i really regret saying as were personal, i really cant believe how well my parents dealt with it looking back, they were so patient and i was so young dumb and naive.
The good news is me and my folks now agree on pretty much all aspects of politics which has actually brought us closer than ever..
Sigh... wouldn't you raise kids to be strong and question everything never to be clones of ourselves or repeat our mistakes.
She makes it clear about values taught to her and Mundine's failure to keep to those values that's good parenting and strength.
My kids have no hesitation to shred me about my dated views and quote real science back to me happily proving me wrong, I am a better person for it and very proud father that they are so strong.
I hope your kids feel strong enough to do the same.
AndyM wrote:“ BTW. You still havent addressed my question about PNG though have you?”
I know you love painting black people as being savage and backward (the closer they are to their culture of course) but I really don’t want to lie down in the mud with you.
Ha ha trying to twist my words again, it has zero to do with skin colour and 100% to do with culture and lack of cultural reform due to being isolated from the rest of the world for most of history..
You wont have a crack because you know im correct it's impossible to argue against because in PNG the evidence is much stronger and there is no real argument to a colonisation factor or so called intergenerational trauma to muddy the waters and definitely no racism aspect.
The problem for you and others is if you do admit PNG issues are culture based, you then have to accept that there is some degree of cultural aspect in Aboriginal Australia communities, which then is very problematic for you, the best you could do then is to down play this factor.
Basically unless you can bring a proper counter argument to the table you admitting im correct...
I focus wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:I really feel for Warren it must be heartbreaking to bring up a child thinking you have brought them up well and then for her to publicly disagree like this (same deal with Lidia thorpe and her father), ive seen photos of Warren and wider family supporting him though.
Even if she didnt share his stance, she shouldn't have gone public, im sure one day she will deeply regret doing so.
I think back to my teens and twenties and the stupid arguments i had with my parents as a brain dead leftie, some things i still remember that i really regret saying as were personal, i really cant believe how well my parents dealt with it looking back, they were so patient and i was so young dumb and naive.
The good news is me and my folks now agree on pretty much all aspects of politics which has actually brought us closer than ever..
Sigh... wouldn't you raise kids to be strong and question everything never to be clones of ourselves or repeat our mistakes.
She makes it clear about values taught to her and Mundine's failure to keep to those values that's good parenting and strength.
My kids have no hesitation to shred me about my dated views and quote real science back to me happily proving me wrong, I am a better person for it and very proud father that they are so strong.
I hope your kids feel strong enough to do the same.
+ 1
“Firstly forget her sex its irrelevant it could just as well be his son.”
No. It is relevant to my comment. We’re taking about Warren Mundine's daughter, not his son. Let’s deal with the facts, not what suits your agenda.
AndyM wrote:“ BTW. You still havent addressed my question about PNG though have you?”
I know you love painting black people as being savage and backward (the closer they are to their culture of course) but I really don’t want to lie down in the mud with you".
You are wrong Andy M, it's not mud, it's a heaping stinking pile of ignorant racist bullshit. The British colonised over 100 countries, murdering, pillaging and destroying as they did so. They also did the same amongst themselves and to the Scots and the Irish, dating back centuries.
This "savage" history is well documented. Many of the spoils still sit in British museums and they refuse to return them to this day.
Yet here we have these ignorant racist No campaigners bringing up the "savagery" of FNP and even PNG indigenous tribes prior to and during colonisation, who have no actual evidence or knowledge of it, who ignore the fact that these were hunter gatherer tribes surviving in often harsh country, who developed systems and culture that existed tens of thousands of years.
Who really were the "savages"? Who did more killing and pillaging? Who stole or destroyed more? Who killed more women and children? The British are the gold medalists.
The ignorance of history and inherent racism of some here, particularly Indo, in making these comments and comparisons is glaring. Not only that, the comparison and the level of "savagery" amongst Indigenous tribes prior to colonosation, or amongst PNG tribes today, has ABSOLUTELY NO RELEVANCE to the referendum other than to reinforce the racist stereotyping of FNP that goes on in this thread and in this country every day.
It's not "just a different opinion" as Indo likes to say, it's racist stereotyping and it's easy to do hiding behind a computer. I'd like to see it repeated in person in front of FNP themselves.
The truth is that all history is savage, but few matched the savagery of the British colonialists. The truth is that FNP are actually the gold medalists of homo sapiens. The first to the top of the food chain, the first to master the use of fire, the first to have a real impact on the natural environment and the oldest continuous culture and civilisation on Earth, dating back 75000 years. Britain began around the 10th century, the Roman Empire lasted about 2000 years, the Egyptians about 3000.
Who are the savages and who are the survivors? (Go read Yuval Noah Harari, see what he says. Don't know who he is? Not surprising.)
I suppose when your views align with mental giants like Pauline Hanson, and both Mundines', and Craig Kelly and Mal Roberts and Ralph Babet, Bolt, Credlin, Deane and the rest of the racist rabble and attention seeking frauds and political opportunists behind the No campaign, history and truth become irrelevant and it's just make racist shit up time, or just rewrite history like Gina's little bulldog did with the "colonisation was positive for FNP" bullshit she pedalled last week.
Pathetic.
^^^ now that was a great post , what do ya reckon burleigh ? Got a insta response ?
Great post alright!! Will fall on deaf ears though. What a shame. Careful now, we who think this way may become communists without knowing. @dumdleftiecommies
Yep.
Top shelf post @Adam12.
Always enjoy reading your posts adam12. I support your ongoing calling out of ignorant racist bullshit.
The thing is Indo, I don't believe in the myth of the peaceful savage, the noble savage.
But at the same time I don't believe that Indigenous cultures are necessarily violent and barbaric, and that Indigenous people would be better off assimilating with our superior ways.
I'd consider having a discussion with you if you were capable of rational and nuanced thought but I think you're so ideologically entrenched that such a conversation is impossible.
So, I'll leave you to your grubby beliefs.
2022 had highest pre poll...
Lowest Poll Day / Aboriginal - Oz Turnout / Lib / ALP / Win % voters
Turnout = 2022 Fed 89% > 2023 By-elections 86.6% > 72.54% > Voice 49% (No majority! Bummer!)
Gonna have to soon mandate that the largest minority of nobodies rule > for at least not giving a fuck!
Wot! Fuck! ...Ok! Just been informed we already do that...well ahead of the game we are!
Voice 2023 (Q&A) Posh ABC Dudes...
52% = Vote Early Postal / pre Poll
42% = Vote on Holy Reffo Day (Promise!)
6% = Don't know
Spend $450m on a do & bugger all RSVP Democracy Sausage Sizzle at the end of the universe.
Are we sayin' Voters no longer vote with their feet anymore.
tbb could do with a spare 25m short pencils...might make it to the end without the lead fallin' out!
Hey TBB. As i have said, this is not my country. Not my vote. Not my circus, not my monkeys. So, i’ll continue to refrain from direct opinion. I am just here to say that i think you are a true one-off. An original. Keep on keepin on, and i wish ya well. Have a good one. (or “one” if it can’t be good. tmro we all get another shot at it.)
actually adam12 your post is precisely the standard global socialist left anti western civilisation, anti British Empire, anti colonialism propaganda and disinformation theme and narrative that is used as a tool on their war on the west. In particular, it's actually precisely the socialist/communist propaganda theme routinely echoed and peddled by Russia and China in their war on the West.
This anti-west propaganda narrative and disinformation is ignorant, naive, biased, highly selective, and factually incorrect. It basically selects 1% of the whole history of the west and British Empire, twists and mangles that tiny portion into an even more biased dishonest fabrication, and presents the final packaged product as though it is the whole history of the west and British Empire. It also presents it as though the sins of the British Empire are far worse than any empire or civilisation that came before it, which is just plain fanciful.
(Speaking of massacre and genocide, you might be surprised to learn what the ancestors of Australian FNPs did to archaic humans from the homo genus on their way out of Africa and down into Australia: they wiped them all out and made them extinct. There is even debate that FNPs undertook this massacre and genocide of early archaic humans on Australian soil. You might also be surprised that Australian FNPs also wiped out and made extinct all of Australia's megafauna pretty well immediately when settling in Australia.)
But I understand where you're coming from and I made the same mistake when I came back to living in Australia at the start of covid. After about a year of being exposed to the heavily socialist left dominated media environment in Australia, in particular thinking that the ABC was an unbiased and neutral media outlet undertaking actual factual news reporting in the public interest, I got fooled by the global socialist left/Russia/China propaganda and disinformation anti-west narrative. It took me probably 18months to realise my mistake and break free from it, particularly after getting out of Australia for a few months and travelling Europe last year, and then in China earlier this year.
The lesson I have learnt is just how deeply the global socialist/communist left and its propaganda and disinformation has penetrated the mind and belief system of the west. We even saw above when inspecting Australia's school curriculum that these global socialist left anti-west themes are now dominant in what our school children are being taught on a range of topics. Unfortunately our overall education system from day one to uni is pumping out graduates up to their eyeballs and balls deep in postmodernism, critical race theory, pseudo-economics including MMT, critical theory, and anti-west socialist themes and propaganda, etc, and without a proper understanding of history.
These global socialist/communist left themes that have infiltrated the west are perfectly described in the wiki entries on western Marxism and the new left:
- Western Marxism: Less concerned with economic analysis than earlier schools of Marxist thought, Western Marxism placed greater emphasis on the study of the cultural trends of capitalist society, deploying the more philosophical and subjective aspects of Marxism, and incorporating non-Marxist approaches to investigating culture and historical development...Since the 1960s, the concept has been closely associated with the New Left.
- New left: It consisted of activists in the Western world who campaigned for a broad range of social issues such as civil and political rights, feminism, gay rights, drug policy reforms, and the rejection of traditional family values, social order, and gender roles.[1] The New Left defers from the traditional left, in that it tends to lean more in favor of social justice compared to previous eras. However, others have used the term "New Left" to describe an evolution, continuation, and revitalization of traditional leftist goals.
What we're seeing is an infiltration into the west of western Marxism via a renewal of the new left. What is happening is fairly well captured and explained in the following book:
Douglas Murray wrote:In The War on the West, international bestselling author Douglas Murray asks: if the history of humankind is one of slavery, conquest, prejudice, genocide and exploitation, why are only Western nations taking the blame for it?
It’s become perfectly acceptable to celebrate the contributions of non-Western cultures, but discussing their flaws and crimes is called hate speech. What’s more it has become acceptable to discuss the flaws and crimes of Western culture, but celebrating their contributions is also called hate speech. Some of this is a much-needed reckoning; however, some is part of a larger international attack on reason, democracy, science, progress and the citizens of the West by dishonest scholars, hatemongers, hostile nations and human-rights abusers hoping to distract from their ongoing villainy.
In The War on the West, Douglas Murray shows the ways in which many well-meaning people have been lured into polarisation by lies, and shows how far the world’s most crucial political debates have been hijacked across Europe and America. Propelled by an incisive deconstruction of inconsistent arguments and hypocritical activism, The War on the West is an essential and urgent polemic that cements Murray’s status as one of the world’s foremost political writers.
Adam12,
Just yesterday, we were discussing about Aboriginal occupation, exactly what you wrote last night, and their existence on this land for over 65 thousand years, if its 65,000, you’re quote of 75,000 is more than reasonable and Cultural Anthropologist’s even consider 100,000.
Compare that to Egyptians approx. 6,000, china 5,000, Aztecs 3,000, India 5,000. Greek 5,000
That's 65,000 - 100,000 years of living, managing, creating, with developed laws that provided the structure and security for their people, very complicated and structured laws they still abide by today, An example of these laws, these unspoken laws are to do with women's and men's business that are respectful and dignified.
They are surely the gold medalists of management.
Thank you for your post, The Indos of this forum should take note and start to rationalise what nonsense they are flouting. Cheers
Sydney Uni link - support of the YES vote
https://www.sydney.edu.au/nccc/the-voice-to-parliament.html
Nah, GSCO. I don’t buy it and am calling you out on being (probably) unintentionally disingenuous.
You didn’t just come back, spend 18 months a-thinkin, and now spout extreme right wing viewpoints.
If you are anything like the folks i know here Stateside… you were turned toward it. By someone. And then pummeled by alternate views that felt good. You’ve been led to where you’ve got. You’ve selected an ecosystem that behaves precisely as how you say your new (given to you) adversaries do…. only the oppo.
That’s your want and your business.
I’d appreciate a more honest (hey, i’ll look in the mirror, too) assessment.
From any and everyone.
You’ll deny and i can’t prove.
But, i know.
I’ve been living it. Here in The States.
Folks…. y’all are runnin just a few years behind us with the culture wars and stunt politics.
Same ecosystems.
Pay attention to us, because it’s you. Soon.
adam12 wrote:AndyM wrote:“ BTW. You still havent addressed my question about PNG though have you?”
I know you love painting black people as being savage and backward (the closer they are to their culture of course) but I really don’t want to lie down in the mud with you".
You are wrong Andy M, it's not mud, it's a heaping stinking pile of ignorant racist bullshit. The British colonised over 100 countries, murdering, pillaging and destroying as they did so. They also did the same amongst themselves and to the Scots and the Irish, dating back centuries.
This "savage" history is well documented. Many of the spoils still sit in British museums and they refuse to return them to this day.
Yet here we have these ignorant racist No campaigners bringing up the "savagery" of FNP and even PNG indigenous tribes prior to and during colonisation, who have no actual evidence or knowledge of it, who ignore the fact that these were hunter gatherer tribes surviving in often harsh country, who developed systems and culture that existed tens of thousands of years.
Who really were the "savages"? Who did more killing and pillaging? Who stole or destroyed more? Who killed more women and children? The British are the gold medalists.
The ignorance of history and inherent racism of some here, particularly Indo, in making these comments and comparisons is glaring. Not only that, the comparison and the level of "savagery" amongst Indigenous tribes prior to colonosation, or amongst PNG tribes today, has ABSOLUTELY NO RELEVANCE to the referendum other than to reinforce the racist stereotyping of FNP that goes on in this thread and in this country every day.
It's not "just a different opinion" as Indo likes to say, it's racist stereotyping and it's easy to do hiding behind a computer. I'd like to see it repeated in person in front of FNP themselves.
The truth is that all history is savage, but few matched the savagery of the British colonialists. The truth is that FNP are actually the gold medalists of homo sapiens. The first to the top of the food chain, the first to master the use of fire, the first to have a real impact on the natural environment and the oldest continuous culture and civilisation on Earth, dating back 75000 years. Britain began around the 10th century, the Roman Empire lasted about 2000 years, the Egyptians about 3000.
Who are the savages and who are the survivors? (Go read Yuval Noah Harari, see what he says. Don't know who he is? Not surprising.)
I suppose when your views align with mental giants like Pauline Hanson, and both Mundines', and Craig Kelly and Mal Roberts and Ralph Babet, Bolt, Credlin, Deane and the rest of the racist rabble and attention seeking frauds and political opportunists behind the No campaign, history and truth become irrelevant and it's just make racist shit up time, or just rewrite history like Gina's little bulldog did with the "colonisation was positive for FNP" bullshit she pedalled last week.
Pathetic.
Okay seeing Andy is such a piss weak gutless pussy happy to troll but then cant back things up and you like to make out you are so smart and clever and above everyone else even being that pathetic loser that is some grammar and nazi police.
Disprove that the levels of violence in PNG are not a result of culture and are some how linked to colonialism, intergenerational trauma or racism.
Go on smart arse good luck with that, once again its completely relevant because if you admit it is true then you have to also admit its a factor in Australia and the issues didnt magically just spring up (inflamed by things like alcohol etc yes but not magically created)
Its not about a stereo type or punching down or being racist or any other BS, its just about being mature enough to be honest and looking at things logically, instead of living in some fantasy land because you are to worried about being perceived as being racist or punching down or whatever .
The evidence is there is both cultures that the roots are culture related in PNG today many of the issues and just like in Australia where the remote areas have the higher levels of violence we see a similar pattern in PNG where remote highland areas still have things like tribal warfare
Only last month
"A bout of tribal fighting has killed an estimated 60 to 70 people in Papua New Guinea's highlands in the past month. PNG"
BTW. As noted many times before acknowledging the root causes of these issues, doesn't mean all the cultural aspects of either culture is bad or people all bad or violent etc, culture and people all have positives and negatives, good and bad people etc. (this i shouldn't even need to point out)
AndyM wrote:The thing is Indo, I don't believe in the myth of the peaceful savage, the noble savage.
But at the same time I don't believe that Indigenous cultures are necessarily violent and barbaric, and that Indigenous people would be better off assimilating with our superior ways.
I'd consider having a discussion with you if you were capable of rational and nuanced thought but I think you're so ideologically entrenched that such a conversation is impossible.
So, I'll leave you to your grubby beliefs.
Once again you are just trying to twist my words nobody has ever suggested the BS you spout or used words like savage etc. (that Adam also likes to imply ive used when i never have)
You have NO counter argument if you did you would prove me wrong.
BTW. like it or not Indigenous culture has assimilated with our ways no clans choose to live as they once did there is not even a movement or desire to reject western society and go back to how things were , even in remote regions they choose to be part of our system happy to take government money use electricity live in houses, use cars, drink and smoke mass produced product's even in large indigenous communities that stretch out over hundreds of kilometres that non indigenous people need to get permission to enter.
gsco wrote:actually adam12 your post is precisely the standard global socialist left anti western civilisation, anti British Empire, anti colonialism propaganda and disinformation theme and narrative that is used as a tool on their war on the west. In particular, it's actually precisely the socialist/communist propaganda theme routinely echoed and peddled by Russia and China in their war on the West.
This anti-west propaganda narrative and disinformation is ignorant, naive, biased, highly selective, and factually incorrect. It basically selects 1% of the whole history of the west and British Empire, twists and mangles that tiny portion into an even more biased dishonest fabrication, and presents the final packaged product as though it is the whole history of the west and British Empire. It also presents it as though the sins of the British Empire are far worse than any empire or civilisation that came before it, which is just plain fanciful.
(Speaking of massacre and genocide, you might be surprised to learn what the ancestors of Australian FNPs did to archaic humans from the homo genus on their way out of Africa and down into Australia: they wiped them all out and made them extinct. There is even debate that FNPs undertook this massacre and genocide of early archaic humans on Australian soil. You might also be surprised that Australian FNPs also wiped out and made extinct all of Australia's megafauna pretty well immediately when settling in Australia.)
But I understand where you're coming from and I made the same mistake when I came back to living in Australia at the start of covid. After about a year of being exposed to the heavily socialist left dominated media environment in Australia, in particular thinking that the ABC was an unbiased and neutral media outlet undertaking actual factual news reporting in the public interest, I got fooled by the global socialist left/Russia/China propaganda and disinformation anti-west narrative. It took me probably 18months to realise my mistake and break free from it, particularly after getting out of Australia for a few months and travelling Europe last year, and then in China earlier this year.
The lesson I have learnt is just how deeply the global socialist/communist left and its propaganda and disinformation has penetrated the mind and belief system of the west. We even saw above when inspecting Australia's school curriculum that these global socialist left anti-west themes are now dominant in what our school children are being taught on a range of topics. Unfortunately our overall education system from day one to uni is pumping out graduates up to their eyeballs and balls deep in postmodernism, critical race theory, pseudo-economics including MMT, critical theory, and anti-west socialist themes and propaganda, etc, and without a proper understanding of history.
These global socialist/communist left themes that have infiltrated the west are perfectly described in the wiki entries on western Marxism and the new left:
- Western Marxism: Less concerned with economic analysis than earlier schools of Marxist thought, Western Marxism placed greater emphasis on the study of the cultural trends of capitalist society, deploying the more philosophical and subjective aspects of Marxism, and incorporating non-Marxist approaches to investigating culture and historical development...Since the 1960s, the concept has been closely associated with the New Left.
- New left: It consisted of activists in the Western world who campaigned for a broad range of social issues such as civil and political rights, feminism, gay rights, drug policy reforms, and the rejection of traditional family values, social order, and gender roles.[1] The New Left defers from the traditional left, in that it tends to lean more in favor of social justice compared to previous eras. However, others have used the term "New Left" to describe an evolution, continuation, and revitalization of traditional leftist goals.What we're seeing is an infiltration into the west of western Marxism via a renewal of the new left. What is happening is fairly well captured and explained in the following book:
Douglas Murray wrote:In The War on the West, international bestselling author Douglas Murray asks: if the history of humankind is one of slavery, conquest, prejudice, genocide and exploitation, why are only Western nations taking the blame for it?
It’s become perfectly acceptable to celebrate the contributions of non-Western cultures, but discussing their flaws and crimes is called hate speech. What’s more it has become acceptable to discuss the flaws and crimes of Western culture, but celebrating their contributions is also called hate speech. Some of this is a much-needed reckoning; however, some is part of a larger international attack on reason, democracy, science, progress and the citizens of the West by dishonest scholars, hatemongers, hostile nations and human-rights abusers hoping to distract from their ongoing villainy.
In The War on the West, Douglas Murray shows the ways in which many well-meaning people have been lured into polarisation by lies, and shows how far the world’s most crucial political debates have been hijacked across Europe and America. Propelled by an incisive deconstruction of inconsistent arguments and hypocritical activism, The War on the West is an essential and urgent polemic that cements Murray’s status as one of the world’s foremost political writers.
How is life down that rabbit hole?
Geez.....
Standard socialist progressive left response of personal insults and attacks, and attempted character assassination.
It’s the main thing that is disgusting and repulsive about the new age progressive left: its use of stock standard communist propaganda and information warfare techniques, which you can see very clearly and live and breathe for yourself in full force if you spent time in China in how it controls, oppresses and indoctrinates the masses.
The Voice debate is saturated by it from the Yes side, as represented nicely in this thread routinely day in day out.
Supafreak wrote:burleigh wrote:Supafreak wrote:@burleigh did you bother looking at the last 7 posts ?
And have you looked at my post?
Yes I did and found it absolutely pathetic that after what was previously posted you come back with this from some dickhead that you actually believe is a journalist. Do you have any idea what the voice is about? I will give you a hint what it’s not about , the colour purple.
You obviously have no idea about marketing.
And me, you and anyone else here has no idea what the voice is about. You’re lying If you say you do
indo-dreaming wrote:adam12 wrote:AndyM wrote:“ BTW. You still havent addressed my question about PNG though have you?”
I know you love painting black people as being savage and backward (the closer they are to their culture of course) but I really don’t want to lie down in the mud with you".
You are wrong Andy M, it's not mud, it's a heaping stinking pile of ignorant racist bullshit. The British colonised over 100 countries, murdering, pillaging and destroying as they did so. They also did the same amongst themselves and to the Scots and the Irish, dating back centuries.
This "savage" history is well documented. Many of the spoils still sit in British museums and they refuse to return them to this day.
Yet here we have these ignorant racist No campaigners bringing up the "savagery" of FNP and even PNG indigenous tribes prior to and during colonisation, who have no actual evidence or knowledge of it, who ignore the fact that these were hunter gatherer tribes surviving in often harsh country, who developed systems and culture that existed tens of thousands of years.
Who really were the "savages"? Who did more killing and pillaging? Who stole or destroyed more? Who killed more women and children? The British are the gold medalists.
The ignorance of history and inherent racism of some here, particularly Indo, in making these comments and comparisons is glaring. Not only that, the comparison and the level of "savagery" amongst Indigenous tribes prior to colonosation, or amongst PNG tribes today, has ABSOLUTELY NO RELEVANCE to the referendum other than to reinforce the racist stereotyping of FNP that goes on in this thread and in this country every day.
It's not "just a different opinion" as Indo likes to say, it's racist stereotyping and it's easy to do hiding behind a computer. I'd like to see it repeated in person in front of FNP themselves.
The truth is that all history is savage, but few matched the savagery of the British colonialists. The truth is that FNP are actually the gold medalists of homo sapiens. The first to the top of the food chain, the first to master the use of fire, the first to have a real impact on the natural environment and the oldest continuous culture and civilisation on Earth, dating back 75000 years. Britain began around the 10th century, the Roman Empire lasted about 2000 years, the Egyptians about 3000.
Who are the savages and who are the survivors? (Go read Yuval Noah Harari, see what he says. Don't know who he is? Not surprising.)
I suppose when your views align with mental giants like Pauline Hanson, and both Mundines', and Craig Kelly and Mal Roberts and Ralph Babet, Bolt, Credlin, Deane and the rest of the racist rabble and attention seeking frauds and political opportunists behind the No campaign, history and truth become irrelevant and it's just make racist shit up time, or just rewrite history like Gina's little bulldog did with the "colonisation was positive for FNP" bullshit she pedalled last week.
Pathetic.Okay seeing Andy is such a piss weak gutless pussy happy to troll but then cant back things up and you like to make out you are so smart and clever and above everyone else even being that pathetic loser that is some grammar and nazi police.
Disprove that the levels of violence in PNG are not a result of culture and are some how linked to colonialism, intergenerational trauma or racism.
Go on smart arse good luck with that, once again its completely relevant because if you admit it is true then you have to also admit its a factor in Australia and the issues didnt magically just spring up (inflamed by things like alcohol etc yes but not magically created)
Its not about a stereo type or punching down or being racist or any other BS, its just about being mature enough to be honest and looking at things logically, instead of living in some fantasy land because you are to worried about being perceived as being racist or punching down or whatever .
The evidence is there is both cultures that the roots are culture related in PNG today many of the issues and just like in Australia where the remote areas have the higher levels of violence we see a similar pattern in PNG where remote highland areas still have things like tribal warfare
Only last month
"A bout of tribal fighting has killed an estimated 60 to 70 people in Papua New Guinea's highlands in the past month. PNG"
BTW. As noted many times before acknowledging the root causes of these issues, doesn't mean all the cultural aspects of either culture is bad or people all bad or violent etc, culture and people all have positives and negatives, good and bad people etc. (this i shouldn't even need to point out)
AndyM wrote:The thing is Indo, I don't believe in the myth of the peaceful savage, the noble savage.
But at the same time I don't believe that Indigenous cultures are necessarily violent and barbaric, and that Indigenous people would be better off assimilating with our superior ways.
I'd consider having a discussion with you if you were capable of rational and nuanced thought but I think you're so ideologically entrenched that such a conversation is impossible.
So, I'll leave you to your grubby beliefs.Once again you are just trying to twist my words nobody has ever suggested the BS you spout or used words like savage etc. (that Adam also likes to imply ive used when i never have)
You have NO counter argument if you did you would prove me wrong.
BTW. like it or not Indigenous culture has assimilated with our ways no clans choose to live as they once did there is not even a movement or desire to reject western society and go back to how things were , even in remote regions they choose to be part of our system happy to take government money use electricity live in houses, use cars, drink and smoke mass produced product's even in large indigenous communities that stretch out over hundreds of kilometres that non indigenous people need to get permission to enter.
You really do hold them in contempt don’t you Indo?
It’s oozing out of every word.
indo-dreaming wrote:oxrox wrote:So everyone's cool with what Noel Pearson said?
You mean this video Udo posted yeah?
I cant believe this isn't getting attention in the media, he basically is trying to divide non indigenous Australian's into two groups white and anyone of colour and literally trying to pit them against each other all in a bid to try to get votes from people of colour.
Maybe its because i have a wife of colour but this really pisses me off what a low life piece of trash.
udo wrote:
Also goes to show how little balance there is in main stream media. Woke media overlooks it in the name of so called social justice. Controlling the narrative. The entire yes campaign is an exercise in chicanery.
adam12 wrote:AndyM wrote:“ BTW. You still havent addressed my question about PNG though have you?”
I know you love painting black people as being savage and backward (the closer they are to their culture of course) but I really don’t want to lie down in the mud with you".
You are wrong Andy M, it's not mud, it's a heaping stinking pile of ignorant racist bullshit. The British colonised over 100 countries, murdering, pillaging and destroying as they did so. They also did the same amongst themselves and to the Scots and the Irish, dating back centuries.
This "savage" history is well documented. Many of the spoils still sit in British museums and they refuse to return them to this day.
Yet here we have these ignorant racist No campaigners bringing up the "savagery" of FNP and even PNG indigenous tribes prior to and during colonisation, who have no actual evidence or knowledge of it, who ignore the fact that these were hunter gatherer tribes surviving in often harsh country, who developed systems and culture that existed tens of thousands of years.
Who really were the "savages"? Who did more killing and pillaging? Who stole or destroyed more? Who killed more women and children? The British are the gold medalists.
The ignorance of history and inherent racism of some here, particularly Indo, in making these comments and comparisons is glaring. Not only that, the comparison and the level of "savagery" amongst Indigenous tribes prior to colonosation, or amongst PNG tribes today, has ABSOLUTELY NO RELEVANCE to the referendum other than to reinforce the racist stereotyping of FNP that goes on in this thread and in this country every day.
It's not "just a different opinion" as Indo likes to say, it's racist stereotyping and it's easy to do hiding behind a computer. I'd like to see it repeated in person in front of FNP themselves.
The truth is that all history is savage, but few matched the savagery of the British colonialists. The truth is that FNP are actually the gold medalists of homo sapiens. The first to the top of the food chain, the first to master the use of fire, the first to have a real impact on the natural environment and the oldest continuous culture and civilisation on Earth, dating back 75000 years. Britain began around the 10th century, the Roman Empire lasted about 2000 years, the Egyptians about 3000.
Who are the savages and who are the survivors? (Go read Yuval Noah Harari, see what he says. Don't know who he is? Not surprising.)
I suppose when your views align with mental giants like Pauline Hanson, and both Mundines', and Craig Kelly and Mal Roberts and Ralph Babet, Bolt, Credlin, Deane and the rest of the racist rabble and attention seeking frauds and political opportunists behind the No campaign, history and truth become irrelevant and it's just make racist shit up time, or just rewrite history like Gina's little bulldog did with the "colonisation was positive for FNP" bullshit she pedalled last week.
Pathetic.
Wholeheartedly agree adam12.
AndyM wrote:You really do hold them in contempt don’t you Indo?
It’s oozing out of every word.
See nothing again nothing of substance, just the same lame arse one line trying to paint me in a negative light.
No i dont hold them in contempt, i mean FFS i dream of Jacinta price being PM, i judge people on what they say or do or their goals not on race or skin colour.
However if there is one group today i see in contempt its the west, IMHO we have peaked as a society and in many ways we have become our own worst enemy and self destructive, we are the only group of people that hate ourselves, when we have as much to be proud of, every other group of people no matter their flaws are proud of who they are are what the have achieved but for us to even take a view of being proud is more and more becoming seen as a negative.
While i dont agree with Gsco focus on socialism/communism/marxism i do agree with his observation's of the west today.
A Salty Dog wrote:adam12 wrote:AndyM wrote:“ BTW. You still havent addressed my question about PNG though have you?”
I know you love painting black people as being savage and backward (the closer they are to their culture of course) but I really don’t want to lie down in the mud with you".
You are wrong Andy M, it's not mud, it's a heaping stinking pile of ignorant racist bullshit. The British colonised over 100 countries, murdering, pillaging and destroying as they did so. They also did the same amongst themselves and to the Scots and the Irish, dating back centuries.
This "savage" history is well documented. Many of the spoils still sit in British museums and they refuse to return them to this day.
Yet here we have these ignorant racist No campaigners bringing up the "savagery" of FNP and even PNG indigenous tribes prior to and during colonisation, who have no actual evidence or knowledge of it, who ignore the fact that these were hunter gatherer tribes surviving in often harsh country, who developed systems and culture that existed tens of thousands of years.
Who really were the "savages"? Who did more killing and pillaging? Who stole or destroyed more? Who killed more women and children? The British are the gold medalists.
The ignorance of history and inherent racism of some here, particularly Indo, in making these comments and comparisons is glaring. Not only that, the comparison and the level of "savagery" amongst Indigenous tribes prior to colonosation, or amongst PNG tribes today, has ABSOLUTELY NO RELEVANCE to the referendum other than to reinforce the racist stereotyping of FNP that goes on in this thread and in this country every day.
It's not "just a different opinion" as Indo likes to say, it's racist stereotyping and it's easy to do hiding behind a computer. I'd like to see it repeated in person in front of FNP themselves.
The truth is that all history is savage, but few matched the savagery of the British colonialists. The truth is that FNP are actually the gold medalists of homo sapiens. The first to the top of the food chain, the first to master the use of fire, the first to have a real impact on the natural environment and the oldest continuous culture and civilisation on Earth, dating back 75000 years. Britain began around the 10th century, the Roman Empire lasted about 2000 years, the Egyptians about 3000.
Who are the savages and who are the survivors? (Go read Yuval Noah Harari, see what he says. Don't know who he is? Not surprising.)
I suppose when your views align with mental giants like Pauline Hanson, and both Mundines', and Craig Kelly and Mal Roberts and Ralph Babet, Bolt, Credlin, Deane and the rest of the racist rabble and attention seeking frauds and political opportunists behind the No campaign, history and truth become irrelevant and it's just make racist shit up time, or just rewrite history like Gina's little bulldog did with the "colonisation was positive for FNP" bullshit she pedalled last week.
Pathetic.Wholeheartedly agree adam12.
Well said adam12, inspired writing
indo-dreaming wrote:oxrox wrote:So everyone's cool with what Noel Pearson said?
You mean this video Udo posted yeah?
I cant believe this isn't getting attention in the media, he basically is trying to divide non indigenous Australian's into two groups white and anyone of colour and literally trying to pit them against each other all in a bid to try to get votes from people of colour.
Maybe its because i have a wife of colour but this really pisses me off what a low life piece of trash.
udo wrote:
Indo,
I viewed all of Rowan Dean’s rant against Pearson, then took the time to view all of Pearson's response to the question. They call that a “balanced view”, taking in both sides of the “discussion”.
It comes as no surprise Dean edited Pearson’s response and embarked on a tirade against Pearson’s “racism”, with the full support of his co-hosts.
To quote Dean:
That was the most disgusting thing I have heard, and anybody out there who is thinking of voting ‘Yes’, you are voting ‘Yes’ to racism. I have said that from day one and I will say that all the way through.
‘Yes’ means ‘Yes’ to racism. And if you can look yourself in the mirror after listening to that and then vote ‘Yes’ then good luck to you because it was disgusting.
But it seems old Rowan suffered a serious bout of selective amnesia.
From Wiki:
Dean was criticised in The Guardian in June 2016 after compiling a "Poor Me List" (a parody of a rich list) mocking prominent Australians who he perceived as displaying a victim mentality in spite of their success, many of were Indigenous Australians or from other ethnic minorities.
And:
In July 2017, Dean suggested on Sky News that the Australian Race Discrimination Commissioner, Tim Soutphommasane should "leave the country" after Soutphommasane called for more cultural diversity in Australian media and politics. On Sky News he comically mispronounced Soutphommasane's name and said "Tim, if you don’t like [Australia], join Yassmin, hop on a plane and go back to Laos" in what Junkee’s Osman Faruqi called a "blatantly race-based attack". Soutphommasane was in fact born in Montpellier, France, to Chinese and Laotian parents. Several Sky News presenters publicly distanced themselves from Dean, with Sky's chief political reporter, Kieran Gilbert, describing Dean's comments as "pathetic", "low" and "reprehensible".
And just for good measure:
Dean has been accused of misogyny based on his comments about women and feminism In December 2018, Spectator Australia published a column that described the Australian Greens senator Sarah Hanson-Young in sexualised language, which the Greens leadership called "appalling" and demanded that Sky News and the Australian Financial Review sack Dean.
In my opinion, Dean comes across as the most revolting piece of human detritus I have ever encountered in my 70 years on the planet.
So just who is the “low life piece of trash” you refer to??
“ … i judge people on what they say ….”
Oh sweet mother of the baby jebus, oh the farkin irony and total lack of self awareness ….
A Salty Dog wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:oxrox wrote:So everyone's cool with what Noel Pearson said?
You mean this video Udo posted yeah?
I cant believe this isn't getting attention in the media, he basically is trying to divide non indigenous Australian's into two groups white and anyone of colour and literally trying to pit them against each other all in a bid to try to get votes from people of colour.
Maybe its because i have a wife of colour but this really pisses me off what a low life piece of trash.
udo wrote:Indo,
I viewed all of Rowan Dean’s rant against Pearson, then took the time to view all of Pearson's response to the question. They call that a “balanced view”, taking in both sides of the “discussion”.
It comes as no surprise Dean edited Pearson’s response and embarked on a tirade against Pearson’s “racism”, with the full support of his co-hosts.
To quote Dean:
That was the most disgusting thing I have heard, and anybody out there who is thinking of voting ‘Yes’, you are voting ‘Yes’ to racism. I have said that from day one and I will say that all the way through.
‘Yes’ means ‘Yes’ to racism. And if you can look yourself in the mirror after listening to that and then vote ‘Yes’ then good luck to you because it was disgusting.But it seems old Rowan suffered a serious bout of selective amnesia.
From Wiki:
Dean was criticised in The Guardian in June 2016 after compiling a "Poor Me List" (a parody of a rich list) mocking prominent Australians who he perceived as displaying a victim mentality in spite of their success, many of were Indigenous Australians or from other ethnic minorities.
And:
In July 2017, Dean suggested on Sky News that the Australian Race Discrimination Commissioner, Tim Soutphommasane should "leave the country" after Soutphommasane called for more cultural diversity in Australian media and politics. On Sky News he comically mispronounced Soutphommasane's name and said "Tim, if you don’t like [Australia], join Yassmin, hop on a plane and go back to Laos" in what Junkee’s Osman Faruqi called a "blatantly race-based attack". Soutphommasane was in fact born in Montpellier, France, to Chinese and Laotian parents. Several Sky News presenters publicly distanced themselves from Dean, with Sky's chief political reporter, Kieran Gilbert, describing Dean's comments as "pathetic", "low" and "reprehensible".
And just for good measure:
Dean has been accused of misogyny based on his comments about women and feminism In December 2018, Spectator Australia published a column that described the Australian Greens senator Sarah Hanson-Young in sexualised language, which the Greens leadership called "appalling" and demanded that Sky News and the Australian Financial Review sack Dean.
In my opinion, Dean comes across as the most revolting piece of human detritus I have ever encountered in my 70 years on the planet.
So just who is the “low life piece of trash” you refer to??
Do you know what stage of Noels speech it is roughly at?
Even if just start end middle etc
I dont want to listen to Noels whole spill, im already tired of all his crap, and im having trouble understanding how the comments could be followed by anything that would change what i heard, but i should see it for myself what was said before or after.
Honestly there is people on Sky i like or dont mind and others im not a fan of that guy falls into the not a fan of category as does Bolt and a few others, but this isn't about him, he isn't the one trying to sell a race based body into the constitution.
burleigh wrote:Supafreak wrote:burleigh wrote:Supafreak wrote:@burleigh did you bother looking at the last 7 posts ?
And have you looked at my post?
Yes I did and found it absolutely pathetic that after what was previously posted you come back with this from some dickhead that you actually believe is a journalist. Do you have any idea what the voice is about? I will give you a hint what it’s not about , the colour purple.
You obviously have no idea about marketing.
And me, you and anyone else here has no idea what the voice is about. You’re lying If you say you do
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/live/2023/oct/03/australia-ne...
Indo,
Regarding Pearson's response, Fliplid set it out here.
Fliplid wrote:@indo: “It would be interesting to see the before and after, but from what you have just said, i cant see how that changes what he has said.”
Time stamp for the video indo is 41.50 to 43.55. 2 minutes of your life to compare what he actually said with the severely edited clip and vile, unhinged rant from the Sky video put up by Udo
“…because we can move to an Australia where the indigenous, the British descendants and the multicultural mob become one and we all know we’re Australians, there’s no priority among us, we’re all equally Australians and the settler native thing kind of retreats into history. It’ll be a great day when we do that, a great day for multicultural communities too because they’ll know unequivocally that they are Australians as much as the rest of us, as much as the white fellas from the United Kingdom and as much as the black fellas from Australia, the multicultural communities are Australians”
Now go and listen to what Pearson said, just to confirm the quote above, and not what Dean wants you to hear.
Two minutes of your life is not too much to ask.
In my opinion, it's as far from racist as you can get.
Purple signs - mentioned above, here's what they look like:
?Almost a 100% colour range match between Vote Yes signs by Yes233 and the @AusElectoralCom "Voting Centre" signs in an image being shared on X by an early voter.
— Rukshan Fernando (@therealrukshan) October 2, 2023
The @AusElectoralCom has said on X comments that they would prefer if this wasn't the case but there is nothing… pic.twitter.com/PzyFc2agA7
?Even YES23 HTV’s are purple! I have worked enough election campaigns to know they cannot get away with this - referendum or otherwise. The AEC must insist YES23 destroy all purple coloured signage and pamphlets, and if they refuse then seek an injunction as early as tomorrow. pic.twitter.com/kTvYnx7PZt
— Jackson Moon O.H.B. (@jacksonmoon) October 2, 2023
tis an interesting choice of colour
conscious or otherwise...
wasn't there outrage a couple of elections ago about a candidate doing the same?
liberal or ex liberal possibly...
like the X / tick thingy... these things really shoulda been sorted / resolved long ago...
sypkan wrote:tis an interesting choice of colour
conscious or otherwise...
wasn't there outrage a couple of elections ago about a candidate doing the same?
liberal or ex liberal possibly...
like the X / tick thingy... these things really shoulda been sorted / resolved long ago...
LNP in Victoria tried it, colour and language, in Kooyong and Chisholm
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/nov/06/liberal-official-...
waveman wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:oxrox wrote:So everyone's cool with what Noel Pearson said?
You mean this video Udo posted yeah?
I cant believe this isn't getting attention in the media, he basically is trying to divide non indigenous Australian's into two groups white and anyone of colour and literally trying to pit them against each other all in a bid to try to get votes from people of colour.
Maybe its because i have a wife of colour but this really pisses me off what a low life piece of trash.
udo wrote:Also goes to show how little balance there is in main stream media. Woke media overlooks it in the name of so called social justice. Controlling the narrative. The entire yes campaign is an exercise in chicanery.
Good word Waveman 'chicanery'! I like it. Its a better fit for the No campaign. IMHO
Green Ant Bully : "Wanna thank #1 swellnet > Unofficially retired scrutineer tbb!"
AEC : Thanx for the months long Warning about the Purple People Eater
tbb (Day 1/2) 27th Sept Unofficial Voice Poll Review https://www.swellnet.com/comment/921389
https://www.aec.gov.au/FAQs/files/21-1579-factsheet-purple-signage-02.pdf
[FACTCHECK] Note : Strictly applies only to 2022 Fed Election not 2023 By-Elections or Reffo.
AEC can only issue warnings or Advise [YES] to Strictly adhere to 6m Entry Rule.
6m Entry rule > ( AEC Purple Inner Sanctum )
[YES] Pink / Purple clashes with AEC Pink / Purple
#1 swellnet exclusively first, last & always reported ...right here...where else...well durr!
Scrutineer tbb told ya so ...like over a million times...
Crew : "Swear it Feels like more than that...Oh the Pain, the Pain!"
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12584319/Yes-campaign-dirty-tri...
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/yes23-warned-by-aec-on-potential...
https://www.9news.com.au/national/voice-to-parliament-yes-campaign-purpl...'s%20longstanding%20branding%22.
Green Ant Bully : I'll direct AEC to brush up on Electoral Laws @ #1 swellnet.
Coulda shoulda saved $450m on AEC Change Booth Embarrassment.
The word I think best describes the Yes side is “fabrication”.
They fabricate a biased, selective and inaccurate highly negative and defamatory narrative of British and Australian history.
They fabricate a biased, glorified, idealised almost mythical narrative of FNP history as though FNPs are unlike other Homo sapiens but some kind of perfect race of enlightened beings on a different mystical level to everyone else.
They fabricate the narrative that up until now Australia has done nothing to reconcile with or help FNPs or give them a say in their destiny until now with The Voice, and that The Voice is FNP’s only hope and all will be lost if the No vote wins and in which case Australia is a horribly racist nation.
They fabricate the narrative that The Voice will be nothing like all past attempts and bodies established to help and reconcile with FNPs (well apparently there has been none, but anyway), and in fact it will miraculously and magically solve all FNP problems overnight.
They fabricate the narrative that there are no long term uncertainties and risks to modifying the constitution in this way, particularly in terms of interpreting the constitution and its wording, meaning and intention in a changing and evolving society that becomes very different to the society and times in which the modification was made.
gsco wrote:The word I think best describes the Yes side is “fabrication”.
They fabricate a biased, selective and inaccurate highly negative and defamatory narrative of British and Australian history.
They fabricate a biased, glorified, idealised almost mythical narrative of FNP history as though FNPs are unlike other Homo sapiens but some kind of perfect race of enlightened beings on a different mystical level to everyone else.
They fabricate the narrative that up until now Australia has done nothing to reconcile with or help FNPs or give them a say in their destiny until now with The Voice, and that The Voice is FNP’s only hope and all will be lost if the No vote wins and in which case Australia is a horribly racist nation.
They fabricate the narrative that The Voice will be nothing like all past attempts and bodies established to help and reconcile with FNPs (well apparently there has been none, but anyway), and in fact it will miraculously and magically solve all FNP problems overnight.
They fabricate the narrative that there are no long term uncertainties and risks to modifying the constitution in this way, particularly in terms of interpreting the constitution and its wording, meaning and intention in a changing and evolving society that becomes very different to the society and times in which the modification was made.
100%
WRONG.
Grow the fuck up mate.
Stop making up shit and get in contact with reality promptly.
Typical yes voters
adam12 wrote:Sameaswas "Pearson and marcia and all the other old activists have created this voice and have cajoled the rest along for their own power grab."
Power grab?
It is a non binding advisory body.
It has no fucking power.
Stop inventing bullshit to cover for your racism.
adam first off no racism in my post, no bullshit about illiteracy in fnp, and the 24 fnp reps are going to be selected not elected, and guess who the selectors will be? marcia and noel.
this whole fiasco has been dumped on us with no detail and no discussion prior to the surprise reffo announcement, they have said planning for 20yrs then 16yrs and last night on q+a noel pearson said planning for 11yrs???
what do you think of deliberately keeping the fnp illiterate? ask jack thompson if he regrets that statement at garma 98 (97?)
and what about the monies promised to them if they vote yes? you know voice first, treaty, reparations...unpaid rent, compensation for past injustice.
what about the millions a new beaurocracy will cost to set up and run?
not required cos there are ample ngo's and govt agencies currently set up for them.
what oz needs is a senate inquiry and then royal commision into all grants and monies to fnp but hey i reckon that would be the last thing the "old guard" activists would want.
burleigh wrote:Typical yes voters
https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cxmh5BNvUpa/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
It was a setup mate.
Rowan Dean and his mates are doing this.
"The word I think best describes the Yes side is “fabrication”...."
I woulda gone with 100%...
correct!
and thrown in perpetuate...
fabricate and perpetuate
SOS
'the narrative'
...should take a long hard look at dutch, spanish, and even french colonialism...
and do a bit of 'compare and contrast' malaysia / singapore with indonesia perhaps...
A Salty Dog wrote:Indo,
Regarding Pearson's response, Fliplid set it out here.
Fliplid wrote:@indo: “It would be interesting to see the before and after, but from what you have just said, i cant see how that changes what he has said.”
Time stamp for the video indo is 41.50 to 43.55. 2 minutes of your life to compare what he actually said with the severely edited clip and vile, unhinged rant from the Sky video put up by Udo
“…because we can move to an Australia where the indigenous, the British descendants and the multicultural mob become one and we all know we’re Australians, there’s no priority among us, we’re all equally Australians and the settler native thing kind of retreats into history. It’ll be a great day when we do that, a great day for multicultural communities too because they’ll know unequivocally that they are Australians as much as the rest of us, as much as the white fellas from the United Kingdom and as much as the black fellas from Australia, the multicultural communities are Australians”
Now go and listen to what Pearson said, just to confirm the quote above, and not what Dean wants you to hear.
Two minutes of your life is not too much to ask.
In my opinion, it's as far from racist as you can get.
Being in the context of an answer to a question instead of a speech softens the blow a tad and what follows after so i can see why its not a big news story.
But it still doesn't change what he said, he is still clearly trying to make other non white Australians question where they sit in society and try to make them think they are seperate to other Australians, and use that angle to get their vote i think its a low life tactic.
People like my wife dont think of themselves as some separate group or any different to other Australians, its just not the Australia of today which is vastly multicultural society with skin tones of all shades and ethnic backgrounds from all around the world.
This guys mentality is stuck somewhere in the past and even if he was correct its absolutely ridiculous notion to think some race based body separating us in the constitution is going to bring his three separates groups of people he has created together, its much more likely to do the opposite. (but just two groups Indigenous and other Aussies)_
BTW. I do appreciate the link though, Cheers..
My replies to some of the responses to my post last night:
@Reform, thank you and well done for your contributions since you showed up here. I like you, I don't know if you are male or female or how old you are but I get a sense of positivity and friendly politeness reading your posts that many here, including myself, could probably learn from. Hope you keep contributing.
gsco, standard and expected response from the guy who sees Western civilisation as the great panacea and who's obsession with communism reminds me of listening to Bob Santamaria when I was a boy, or maybe more so General Ripper in Kubrick's Dr. Strangelove.
History, particularly documented and recorded history, can't lie. You said " It basically selects 1% of the whole history of the west and British Empire, twists and mangles that tiny portion into an even more biased dishonest fabrication".
Well I would dispute your 1%. They started colonising in the 1600's and at it's peak the empire covered a quarter of the globe and made those small islands the most powerful empire in the world. Other Europeans, most notably the French and the Dutch, also had their empires but nowhere near as widespread. They were motivated by the belief in their obligation to civilise the uncivilised world and the three G's -Gold, God and Glory. They did it through settler colonisation like in the Americas and here in Australia, or through economic colonisation like in India and Africa where they exploited the labour and resources of the country to enrich themselves. $45 trillion in wealth transferred from India alone, 3 million slaves from Africa off whose backs they largely funded their Industrial Revolution. Colonisation made the British Empire possible, you could hardly argue that it was just a tiny part, 1% of it's history, but you do.
More broadly you think I am attacking Western Civilisation with " the standard global socialist left anti western civilisation, anti British Empire, anti colonialism propaganda and disinformation theme and narrative that is used as a tool on their war on the west." I'm not. I'm not motivated by socialism or propaganda or misinformation, just my reading of history. I don't want to live in a communist state. I recognise and appreciate all the great things western civilisation has brought us and accomplished that you have listed, my fault with it is only that right now it seems to me to be incapable of implementing the known solutions to the greatest existential challenge of all and appears more like a driver of humanity's great suicide pact than civilisation.
I also recognise and appreciate the enduring nature and accomplishments of FNP and their culture. You said " You might also be surprised that Australian FNPs also wiped out and made extinct all of Australia's megafauna pretty well immediately when settling in Australia.)" When I said " the first to have a real impact on the natural environment" the destruction of the megafauna was precisely what I was talking about. The point is this, without the British Empire, colonisation and the imposition of western civilisation, without the great agricultural and industrial and technological revolutions that took place around the globe, left alone on say a planet of just this continent and them, FNP would endure another 75,000 years and beyond. Can the rest of civilisation make that claim? The way it looks right now our great civilisations be they west or east, Christian or Muslim or Buddist or whatever, be they communist, fascist, capitalist or socialist or permutations within, our great modern world and the animal kingdom within it, will be lucky to survive this century alone.
How you judge a successful civilisation is in the eye of the beholder. Tortoises and hares. How civilised is the frog in the slowly boiling water? What is the point of all that progress if we destroy ourselves in the process? FNP and their enduring wisdom is a asset this country has that should not be forsaken, discarded and dismissed. we should embrace it, we should enshrine their right and ability to express it in our constitution. It only enhances us, not diminishes us, in my opinion.
Which brings me to Indo, the self described "knockabout, blue collar guy" (pffft) who never gets abusive or nasty according to him then says "Okay seeing Andy is such a piss weak gutless pussy happy to troll but then cant back things up and you like to make out you are so smart and clever and above everyone else even being that pathetic loser that is some grammar and nazi police. "
So "piss weak","gutless pussy", "troll","pathetic loser", "nazi" isn't abusive, it's just friendly talk from a knockabout blue collar guy. When I pointed out to him that the behavior of FNP toward their own in pre colonial Australia and the current behavior of PNG indigenous tribes has not a skerrick of relevance to the referendum other than to reinforce a racial stereotype of black savages, goes onto half a page and a clip reinforcing that very racial stereotype. Like I said in my post, pathetic.
As for you others, the Andys, Guy, Southern Raw, A Salty Dog, Supafreak, Reform and the others, sorry if I forgot you in this list, it seems if the polling on the referendum was taken here amongst the surfers on this thread, the Voice would be romping it in. Who knows what the vote may bring, the thought that I live in a country and amongst people who are incapable of granting FNP such a benign, respectful and gentle request as the Voice both sickens and depresses me, but it is reassuring to see the support it is afforded by guys like you. Australia faces a big test on Oct 14, who we are, how we see ourselves and how the rest of the world will see us moving forward. The vote and the aftermath are going to be very telling. Bring it.
Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x
The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.
Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.
Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.
The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.
Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??
Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28
References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28