The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

bluediamond started the topic in

Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

Jelly Flater Sunday, 1 Oct 2023 at 4:43pm

;)

https://m.

&pp=ygUJQmFrZXIgYm95

seeds Sunday, 1 Oct 2023 at 5:20pm

Michael Adam wrote:
These people don’t learn from the past hence our current situation.

Who are referring to Michael Adam?

Reform Sunday, 1 Oct 2023 at 5:51pm

Hi Indo,
Another odd question, just to satisfy my own curiosity. Are you American or are you associated?
From your above text "stoked on the job real positive"
Cheers

burleigh Sunday, 1 Oct 2023 at 6:00pm

same doom and gloom. different day.

seeds Sunday, 1 Oct 2023 at 6:16pm

Fucken hell Burliegh . It’s you lot doom and gloom. Don’t respond much hey Burleigh. Let Indo take the punches?

Reform Sunday, 1 Oct 2023 at 6:22pm

The dialogue is pretty unexciting, hey? But not from the yes champions sorry, where is the positivity displayed in your dialogue? A bit of spark maybe, something that people can get value and nourishment from. You know that zest for life we all need for the health of our communities and ourselves, our soul and nature.
Growth and progression, change with goodwill is paramount to Yes voters. The indigenous want this to pass with few exceptions. I support their plea!
Indo and Burleigh - Nup, as per Groucho’s classic ‘Were against it!’ At every turn, unfortunately that’s real bad!

indo-dreaming Sunday, 1 Oct 2023 at 6:23pm

Reform wrote:
Hi Indo,
Another odd question, just to satisfy my own curiosity. Are you American or are you associated?
From your above text "stoked on the job real positive"
Cheers

Um no...I guess stoked is an American word but it's pretty commonly used at least among Gen Xers

Reform Sunday, 1 Oct 2023 at 6:23pm

seeds wrote:
Fucken hell Burliegh . It’s you lot doom and gloom. Don’t respond much hey Burleigh. Let Indo take the punches?

Hi Five seeds!

Reform Sunday, 1 Oct 2023 at 6:26pm

Hi Indo, thanks I was referring to the word 'real' ..Its cool sorry to bother with that thanks

burleigh Sunday, 1 Oct 2023 at 6:34pm

Reform wrote:
The dialogue is pretty unexciting, hey? But not from the yes champions sorry, where is the positivity displayed in your dialogue? A bit of spark maybe, something that people can get value and nourishment from. You know that zest for life we all need for the health of our communities and ourselves, our soul and nature.
Growth and progression, change with goodwill is paramount to Yes voters. The indigenous want this to pass with few exceptions. I support their plea!
Indo and Burleigh - Nup, as per Groucho’s classic ‘Were against it!’ At every turn, unfortunately that’s real bad!

How do you know the FNP want this to pass? Please don't say the online poll from Yes23 back in february that every peanut has been jumping on since.

basesix Sunday, 1 Oct 2023 at 6:36pm

(below taken from Bill Bryson, Down Under; travels in a Sunburned Country, 2001):

"You don’t have to be a genius to work out that Aborigines are Australia’s greatest social failing. For virtually every indicator of prosperity and well-being – hospitalization rates, suicide rates, childhood mortality, imprisonment, employment, you name it – the figures for Aborigines range from twice as bad to up to twenty times worse than for the general population. According to John Pilger, Australia is the only developed nation that ranks high for incidence of trachoma – a viral disease that often leads to blindness – and it is almost exclusively an Aboriginal malady.

Overall, the life expectancy of the average indigenous Australian is twenty years – TWENTY YEARS! – less than that of the average white Australian.

In Cairns, quite by chance, I had been told about a lawyer named Jim Brooks, who has worked for years for and with Aborigines, and I had managed to meet him for a cup of coffee in town just before Allan and I had flown on to Darwin. A calm, easygoing, immediately likable man with just a hint of the earnestness that must have led him to devote his working life to fighting for the disaffiliated rather than piling up money in private practice, he runs the Native Title Rights Office in Cairns, which helps native peoples with land issues, and was one of the members of a human rights commission set up in the mid-1990s to investigate an unfortunate experiment in social engineering popularly known as the Stolen Generations.

This was an attempt by government to lift Aboriginal children out of poverty and disadvantage by physically distancing them from their families and communities. No one knows the actual numbers, but between 1910 and 1970 between one-tenth and one-third of Aboriginal children were taken from their parents and sent to foster homes or state training centers. The idea – thought quite advanced at the time – was to prepare them for a more rewarding life in the white world. What was most amazing about this was the legal mechanism that enabled it to be done. Until the 1960s in most Australian states, Aboriginal parents did not have legal custody of their own children. The state did. The state could take children from their homes at any time, on any basis it deemed appropriate, without apology or explanation.

“They did everything they could to eliminate contact between the parents and children,” Jim Brooks told me when we met. “We found one woman whose five children were sent to five different states. She had no way of keeping in touch with them, no way of knowing where they were, whether they were sick or well or happy or anything. Have you got kids?”

“Four,” I said.

“Well, imagine if a government van turned up at your house one day and some inspector came to the door and told you they were taking your children. I mean seriously imagine how you would feel if you had to stand by and watch your children taken from your arms and put into a van. Imagine watching the van driving off down the road, with your kids crying for you, looking at you out the back window, and knowing that you will probably never see them again.”

“Stop,” I said with an uneasy stab at jocularity.

He smiled sympathetically at my discomfort. “And there is not a thing you can do about it. Nobody you can turn to. No court that will take your side. And this went on for decades.”

“Why did they do it in such a heartless way?”

“They didn’t see it as heartless. They thought they were doing a good thing.” He passed me a précis of the rights commission’s report, which he had brought for me, and showed me a quotation from early in the century by a traveling inspector named James Isdell, who wrote of the dispossessed parents: “No matter how frantic [their] momentary grief might be at the time, they soon forget their offspring.”

“They sincerely believed that indigenous peoples were somehow immune to normal human emotions,” Brooks said. He shrugged at the hopelessness of such thinking. “Very often the children were told that their parents were dead; sometimes that the parents no longer wanted them. That was their way of helping them cope. Well, you can imagine the consequences. There was a lot of grief, related alcoholism, stratospheric levels of suicide, all that kind of stuff.”

“What became of the kids?”

“The kids, meanwhile, were kept in care until they were sixteen or seventeen and then turned out into the community. They had a choice of staying in the cities and trying to cope with the inevitable prejudices or returning to their traditional communities and resuming a way of life that they could barely remember with people they no longer really know. The conditions for dysfunction and dislocation were bred into the system. You don’t get rid of that overnight. You know, some people will tell you that the removal of children only affected a small proportion of indigenous families. That is wrong – there was scarcely a family in the land that wasn’t affected at some profound and immediate level – but even more tragically it misses the point. Taking children away destroyed a whole continuity of relationships. Just because you stop that practice doesn’t mean that all that damage is going to be magically undone and everything will be fine.”

“So what can you do for them?” I asked.

“Help to give them a voice,” he said. “That’s all I can do.” He shrugged, a little helplessly, and smiled. I asked him if there was still much prejudice in Australia and he nodded. “Huge amounts,” he said. “Really quite huge amounts, I’m afraid.”

Over the past twenty years, successive governments have done quite a lot – or quite a lot compared with what was done before. They have restored large tracts of land to Aboriginal communities. They have returned Uluru to Aboriginal stewardship. They have spent more money on schools and clinics. They have introduced the usual initiatives for encouraging community projects and helping small businesses get started. None of this has made any difference at all to the statistics. Some have actually gotten worse. At the end of the twentieth century an Aboriginal Australian was still eighteen times more likely to die from an infectious disease than a white Australian, and seventeen times more likely to be hospitalized as a result of violence. An Aboriginal baby remained two to four times more likely to die at birth depending on cause.

Above all, what is perhaps oddest to the outsider is that Aborigines just aren’t there. You don’t see them performing on television; you don’t find them assisting you in shops. Only two Aborigines have ever served in Parliament; none has held a cabinet post. Indigenous peoples constitute only about 1.5 percent of the Australian population and they live disproportionately in rural areas, so you wouldn’t expect to see them in vast numbers anyway, but you would expect to see them sometimes – working in a bank, delivering mail, writing parking tickets, fixing a telephone line, participating in some productive capacity in the normal workaday world. I never have; not once. Clearly some connection is not being made.

As I sat now on the Todd Street Mall with my coffee and watched the mixed crowds – happy white shoppers with Saturday smiles and a spring in their step, shadowy Aborigines with their curious bandages and slow, swaying, knocked-about gait – I realized that I didn’t have the faintest idea what the solution to all this was, what was required to spread the fruits of general Australian prosperity to those who seemed so signally unable to find their way to it. If I were contracted by the Commonwealth of Australia to advise on Aboriginal issues all I could write would be: “Do more. Try harder. Start now.

So without an original or helpful thought in my head, I just sat for some minutes and watched these poor disconnected people shuffle past. Then I did what most white Australians do. I read my newspaper and drank my coffee and didn’t see them anymore."

(above taken from Bill Bryson, Down Under; travels in a Sunburned Country, 2001).

- I know there are some on here that cite changes in the last 20 years, but with people calling those changes woke, booing them, calling it brainwashing/victimising, saying it's just corporate guff, or rolling their eyes at ceremonies, etc. I would say, not much has really changed -

southernraw Sunday, 1 Oct 2023 at 6:49pm

It's very obvious Burleigh is just a troll.
Can anyone recall him ever posting anything of substance?
Its in his name. Berley. Just here to get bites.
I ask you Berley, why are you here?
One of the reasons i browsed back through the beginning of this thread earlier was to see where it all came undone, because it was a very respectful discussion at one point.
Pretty much all the same posters that are still here, except you, were all posting thoughtful, insightful, or at the very least attempting to debate with at least some level of research.
But there was never a snarky, ill educated sniper like yourself that would constantly berate users without actually posting any thoughts or researched facts of any substance like yourself.
All you do is post instagram links of suss looking groups of sovereign citizens and name call other users.
So i ask you Burleigh. What are you actually doing here?
If not to actually debate, you're just a troll and i'm pretty sure that goes against the code of conduct set out by this website.

goofyfoot Sunday, 1 Oct 2023 at 7:09pm

"“Well, imagine if a government van turned up at your house one day and some inspector came to the door and told you they were taking your children. I mean seriously imagine how you would feel if you had to stand by and watch your children taken from your arms and put into a van. Imagine watching the van driving off down the road, with your kids crying for you, looking at you out the back window, and knowing that you will probably never see them again.”

That's so fucked
Cant quite comprehend that actually happened, it's sickening

seeds Sunday, 1 Oct 2023 at 7:24pm

Bloody oath GF
These policies by government with scant regard for consultation and little alone for standing or empathy. Just judgement. Wonder why it fails? The voice is really about consultation. We wouldn’t put up with it!!

sypkan Sunday, 1 Oct 2023 at 7:33pm

The Voice Referendum. Possibly the last impact boomers will have on our body politic.

In our research, 54% under 34s are voting Yes. 45% are not. Flip side, close to 30% of Australians who we surveyed and are over 65 are voting Yes.

That means over 2 million under 34s are… https://t.co/x9YDq6a3mX
— Kos Samaras (@KosSamaras) September 30, 2023

sypkan Sunday, 1 Oct 2023 at 7:36pm

never ever voted liberal...

never ever will...

but bring it on!

Given that the Coalition had the first Indigenous senator, MP, and cabinet minister, it doesn’t see so far fetched, does it? Not to mention the first female MP.

Here’s a link for your tweeps who’d like to read the column. https://t.co/CCWoABkbyS
— Parnell Palme McGuinness (@parnellpalme) October 1, 2023

udo Sunday, 1 Oct 2023 at 7:44pm

?si=h44ybtJ0OBP_LhHd

seeds Sunday, 1 Oct 2023 at 7:46pm

It’s never going to happen. She’s being had.

indo-dreaming Sunday, 1 Oct 2023 at 8:26pm

sypkan wrote:
never ever voted liberal...

never ever will...

but bring it on!

https://twitter.com/parnellpalme/status/1708303111478214930

Come on you would have to make an exception and vote LNP if she was running imagine that a women indigenous PM and one that goes against the grain. (it would be first Indigenous PM, first women PM voted in by the public)

She has literally grown before my eyes and i feel proud of her and if the No vote wins she will be a big part of the reason and her profile and fan base will increase even more

But lets be realistic if she ever gets in the position to run as opposition leader or even wants too, its going to be a long way off, she doesn't have the experience yet and politics is cut throat even in your own party.

The good news is if this is a goal of hers she is only 42, so plenty of time for perspective Albo is 60

GuySmiley Sunday, 1 Oct 2023 at 8:37pm

Farkin @info self described school drop out at age 14 or was it 15 after not listening to his teachers for years “I just drew in my exercise books”, hinted about his diagnosis (OCD??) made good with family and work after his pants shitting alcoholic stupor dole grifting years now Swellnet resident always farkin 100% right ewes carnts are always so so wrong off course I need to be on here commenting 24/7 to school ewes loose units on how farkin up my own arse I am ….it’s been a decade long journey of negativity for all things dealing with FNP so why are you farkin wasting your time and energy trying to convince @info of anything?

Supafreak Sunday, 1 Oct 2023 at 8:31pm

Highly doubt JP will still be in politics in 5 years time.

GuySmiley Sunday, 1 Oct 2023 at 8:33pm

seeds wrote:
It’s never going to happen. She’s being had.

To be PM you MUST first be voted into the House of Representatives, can’t see that grifter getting the required votes to get any where near 50% of the votes to win a seat AND then the party you’re in needs to win a majority of seats … dream on numbnutters

indo-dreaming Sunday, 1 Oct 2023 at 8:44pm

GuySmiley wrote:
Farkin @info self described school drop out at age 14 or was it 15 after not listening to his teachers for years “I just drew in my exercise books”, hinted about his diagnosis (OCD??) made good with family and work after his pants shitting alcoholic stupor dole grifting years now Swellnet resident always farkin 100% right ewes carnts are always so so wrong off course I need to be on here commenting 24/7 to school ewes loose units on how farkin up my own arse I am ….it’s been a decade long journey of negativity for all things dealing with FNP so why are you farkin wasting your time and energy trying to convince @info of anything?

Ha ha i love it how butt hurt people like you get from hearing views that dont align with yours, especially comming from an everyday knock about blue collar worker.

Few corrections though, ive never ever said i dropped out of school i finished year 12, probably should have left at end of grade 10 though 11 & 12 was a waste of time and its never brought me anything, if i could go back id leave at end of grade 10 and get an apprenticeship.

Also Ive never been an alcoholic, just a twice a week binge drinker until about 30, not really unusual.

BTW. Regarding Jacinta who knows what the future holds you wrote her off long ago and she has proved you wrong, if complete muppets like Albo can get to where they are, pretty much anyone with drive can, lets be real Albo is pretty much the equivalent of our Biden just 30 years younger.

indo-dreaming Sunday, 1 Oct 2023 at 8:55pm

Supafreak wrote:
Highly doubt JP will still be in politics in 5 years time.

Who knows, but im sure most people thought Pauline Hanson wouldn't last too, but she is still at it 27 years latter.

Supafreak Sunday, 1 Oct 2023 at 8:56pm

southernraw Sunday, 1 Oct 2023 at 9:06pm

haha! Classic SF.

truebluebasher Sunday, 1 Oct 2023 at 9:24pm

Orchestration of the Voice Choir
GG presents PM's Altered Lyrics to King of Oz for Approval.
Showtime!
25th Sept (Sopranos) Tiwi Island Divas > Torres Strait Islands
25th Sept (Next) Top End Mainland Indigenous
26th Sept (Week 1) Indigenous Remote Communities

(Week 2) First o/s Voice Postal Votes
2nd Oct ~ Kiribati +45m NZ +1-2hr Russia > Pacific > Sth Pole +3hrs Micronesia PNG

Then comes Australian Postal Voters
2nd Oct ~ +3hrs Victoria /Tas +4hrs PNG +4:30m NT (+5hrs o/s Japan / Korea / Indo) +6hrs WA

Rest of the World get to lodge their Postal Vote...

Back to Oz for Tail end 2nd day > 1st Day Postal Voters ...
3rd Oct ~ NSW > ACT +30m SA +1hr Qld

(Week 2) All Postal Votes Cont...
(Week 3)
11th Oct ~ Postal Votes Close...

Royal Command Performance
14th Oct ~ NSW > Tas > Vic > ACT > SA > Qld > NT
14th Oct ~ (Polls Close) +3hrs Later queuing WA voters watch Fake News...Oz hangs in the balance...
? [NO] or Vote [YES] for Albo's last minute WA GST windfall bonus!

PM's Reffo is passed to GG & presented to King of Oz for his Verdict : [Yeah/Nah]

Reminding that Oz dropped the Batton during the King's Relay & chopped his head off our Coins...
King has every right to meddle in his own Reffo to overrule Slytherin's unanimous [NO] Blood Bath!

Shh! He comes our King's Reffo overrule!

F.U. Disloyal Plebs...I do here by declare yer Voice Reffo...Terra Nullius ...a complete absence of Civility!

Slytherin : "Well may we say, God save our Pentecostal GG... coz nuthin' will save our Woke King!"

Westofthelake Sunday, 1 Oct 2023 at 9:19pm

Actions always speak louder than words. Sure, she ain't been there long, but if the below is ANY indication...

upload pic

southernraw Sunday, 1 Oct 2023 at 9:38pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
sypkan wrote:
never ever voted liberal...

never ever will...

but bring it on!

https://twitter.com/parnellpalme/status/1708303111478214930

Come on you would have to make an exception and vote LNP if she was running imagine that a women indigenous PM and one that goes against the grain. (it would be first Indigenous PM, first women PM voted in by the public)

She has literally grown before my eyes and i feel proud of her and if the No vote wins she will be a big part of the reason and her profile and fan base will increase even more

But lets be realistic if she ever gets in the position to run as opposition leader or even wants too, its going to be a long way off, she doesn't have the experience yet and politics is cut throat even in your own party.

The good news is if this is a goal of hers she is only 42, so plenty of time for perspective Albo is 60

I'm surprised old Scomo didn't appoint himself as an Indigenous female prime minister.
He wore every other hat.

andy-mac Sunday, 1 Oct 2023 at 10:22pm

goofyfoot wrote:
"“Well, imagine if a government van turned up at your house one day and some inspector came to the door and told you they were taking your children. I mean seriously imagine how you would feel if you had to stand by and watch your children taken from your arms and put into a van. Imagine watching the van driving off down the road, with your kids crying for you, looking at you out the back window, and knowing that you will probably never see them again.”

That's so fucked
Cant quite comprehend that actually happened, it's sickening

The heartbreak would be like nothing else.
So sad.

andy-mac Sunday, 1 Oct 2023 at 10:29pm

sypkan wrote:
never ever voted liberal...

never ever will...

but bring it on!

https://twitter.com/parnellpalme/status/1708303111478214930

Yeah right. IPA poster girl who will be dropped when no longer useful.

truebluebasher Sunday, 1 Oct 2023 at 11:08pm

Voice Red Faces

Socialists (vs) Commies (vs) Socialists (vs) Commies
Guessin' the crew have noticed...[YES] (vs) [?] (vs) [HELL YEAH] (vs) [NO]

Just saying to check ...tbb knows that some of these Parties have been de-registered by AEC
Not sure if they've reformed or not registered...just to check if ya wanna follow up further!
Example...[insta] may brand them a Political Party but not AEC...got that!

[YES] Victorian Socialists
https://victoriansocialists.org.au/news/voice-to-parliament

[YES] Socialist Alternative
https://redflag.org.au/article/why-left-should-vote-yes-referendum

[Boycott] Socialist Equality Party
https://www.aec.gov.au/Parties_and_Representatives/Party_Registration/De...
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/09/14/kbwm-s14.html
https://socialist-alliance.org/news/2023-09-11/socialist-alliance-positi...

[Critical YES] Socialist Alliance
https://www.aec.gov.au/Parties_and_Representatives/Party_Registration/De...
https://socialist-alliance.org/news/2023-01-19/voice-parliament-has-be-m...
https://socialist-alliance.org/news/2023-09-11/socialist-alliance-positi...

[NO] Freedom Socialist Party (Treaty)
https://socialism.com/fso-article/as-the-referendum-approaches/

[YES] Communist Party of Australia
https://cpa.org.au/yes-to-the-voice-to-parliament/
https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/w/australian-communists-pledge-s...
https://www.skynews.com.au/opinion/peta-credlin/totally-unnoticed-commun...

[NO] Australian Communist Party
https://www.auscp.org.au/shop/p/votenotothevoice
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/the-transformation-of-thomas-may...
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-23/white-supremacist-red-over-black-...

This is the aforementioned Red over Black flick by Commie turned Joh's [LNP] Evangelist
First 30 mins ramble uncovers secret plots but 2nd half can't hide the God Squad Conversion!
Supposed to be the Red Flag curtain raiser for Commies to conspire with Reclaim mobsters!
It's starts off all grainy & dorky & ya wanna believe in this Commie / UN Devil Worshipping...
And ya can...if ya walk out at interval...all sorted... tbb is a believer...then the dude reveals he's a nutter!
29:55 Tip : [ Bail out ]
All will agree...the dude shoulda just left us losers hangin...go out as Dark Overlord of Oz...but [NO]
If ya race the Nazis for the Holy Grail you'll be blindsided by Caspar's Conversion therapy.

First gotta run the mandatory [factchecked] banned Conspiracy warning for minors.

Then dig out the grainy End of the World 1984 conspiracy copy to hook in the crew!

Oblige the crew with a shortened Alternative Part 2...option never offered to tbb! Cry!

basesix Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 7:16am

"She has literally grown before my eyes and i feel proud of her and if the No vote wins she will be a big part of the reason and her profile and fan base will increase even more"
@indo's prediction for a future federal erection.

udo Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 7:46am

?si=hqtulDGkUge2noKe

Reform Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 8:02am

Udo, I find your taste and choice of material quite off putting.
This is not for my eyes! and what's the point?
This only inflicts pain for the pained. Another assault to those souls.. great, good one! Not.

indo-dreaming Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 8:51am

indo-dreaming wrote:
sypkan wrote:
never ever voted liberal...

never ever will...

but bring it on!

https://twitter.com/parnellpalme/status/1708303111478214930

Come on you would have to make an exception and vote LNP if she was running imagine that a women indigenous PM and one that goes against the grain. (it would be first Indigenous PM, first women PM voted in by the public)

She has literally grown before my eyes and i feel proud of her and if the No vote wins she will be a big part of the reason and her profile and fan base will increase even more

But lets be realistic if she ever gets in the position to run as opposition leader or even wants too, its going to be a long way off, she doesn't have the experience yet and politics is cut throat even in your own party.

The good news is if this is a goal of hers she is only 42, so plenty of time for perspective Albo is 60

basesix wrote:
"She has literally grown before my eyes and i feel proud of her and if the No vote wins she will be a big part of the reason and her profile and fan base will increase even more"
@indo's prediction for a future federal erection.

If you are going to make that comment, why not post a reply to my whole post that is much more relevant?

As you can see i make it quite clear that IF that is her or LNPs desire then there is still a lot of hurdles to still jump, it may never happen but it's always nice to dream.

BTW. I just had a look on FB, Jacinta has 220K followers double that of Dutton 110k, Linda Burley 51k, Lidia Thorpe has 77K, still not up there with Pauline Hanson 488K or Albo 392K though or Scomo 768K these days social media reach is important, although id say many that follow Albo or Scomo are not fans but more just following to troll post.

indo-dreaming Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 8:42am

Reform wrote:
Udo, I find your taste and choice of material quite off putting.
This is not for my eyes! and what's the point?
This only inflicts pain for the pained. Another assault to those souls.. great, good one! Not.

I havent seen the video yet so cant comment on it, but i do know of these two aspects.

To often today there is a narrative that before white fella it was all peace, love and fairies dancing in the bottom of the garden which is false if people want to have truth telling it needs to be a two way street one that shows the negative aspects and conflict brought by white fella but one that is also honest about aspects that happened before white fella and often continued for some time. (id expect its safe to say these two practices dont continue today)

Fliplid Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 9:10am

Maybe consider the intent of the video indo, not what it says. This guy has zero interest in historical truth, his sole intention is to throw more fuel on the fire to try and confuse the real issue at hand which is the referendum.

Even a quick look at his youtube channel shows he is an agitator who just wants to stir up shit and anyone with a bit of nous can see that the themes are basically lies and bullshit.

"ABC Investigations has established the owner of Blacklisted Research is Queensland man Daniel Walker, who has an extensive history of sharing anti-Semitic materials.

In one video he posted last year on a neo-Nazi video-sharing platform, which the ABC has chosen not to name, Mr Walker included a photoshopped image of himself having a barbecue outside the Auschwitz concentration camp."

"ABC Investigations also identified Mr Walker as the administrator for the Blacklisted Research Telegram channel, where some of its subscribers discuss strategies on how to sell a No vote."

oxrox Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 9:31am

So everyone's cool with what Noel Pearson said?

Reform Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 10:07am

Looking pretty sound so far.. Noel Pearson is a gem!
"Mine, yours, ours"
"This land is my land, this land is your land"
"Our children will walk in two worlds and enjoy the best of both, their culture will be a gift to their country and they will join the main frame of Australia free to be modern versions of themselves. This gift of indigenous culture from old Australia to new is the peace dividend of the middle way because if we vote Yes we're voting yes to orientate the relationship between indigenous and non-indigenous Australians down a safe and responsible middle part voting yes is a rejection of confected War, voting yes crosses the bridge on the pathway to peace. voting no is not a neutral choice, voting no is an active choice to take us nowhere. Voting no leaves us suspended." Noel Pearson - Press club on the voice

GuySmiley Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 9:56am

“ To often today there is a narrative that before white fella it was all peace, love and fairies dancing in the bottom of the garden which is false if people want to have truth telling it needs to be a two way street one that shows the negative aspects and conflict brought by white fella but one that is also honest about aspects that happened before white fella and often continued for some time. (id expect its safe to say these two practices dont continue today)”

Can you remotely imagine a keyboard warrior/resurcher getting away with such a narrative in Hawaii or New Zealand or pretty much anywhere else where FNP had suffered like ATSIs have? Wilfully ignorant carnt can’t help himself

AndyM Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 10:01am

Indo you say you want a two-way street but over the years all you've ever done is try to tear them down.
What's up with that?

oxrox Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 10:03am

Reform wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aDiWiDOU7g

Looking pretty sound so far.. Noel Pearson is a gem!
"Mine, yours, ours"
"This land is my land, this land is your land"

With caveats it seems.
Such as an indigeneous woman halting Woodside from carrying out seismic testing 190kms off the WA coast because it will interfere with the whale songlines. One example.
I'm all for protecting indigenous sacret sites etc and they call the shots on native title land which I have no problem with but I do have a problem with things like this.
Woodside consulted with environmental protection etc as well as the local tribes and were given the green light on this project.

AndyM Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 10:16am

oxrox wrote:
Reform wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aDiWiDOU7g

Looking pretty sound so far.. Noel Pearson is a gem!
"Mine, yours, ours"
"This land is my land, this land is your land"

With caveats it seems.
Such as an indigeneous woman halting Woodside from carrying out seismic testing 190kms off the WA coast because it will interfere with the whale songlines. One example.
I'm all for protecting indigenous sacret sites etc and they call the shots on native title land which I have no problem with but I do have a problem with things like this.
Woodside consulted with environmental protection etc as well as the local tribes and were given the green light on this project.

Sounds like some people still disagree.
There's something to be said for a liberal democracy.

soggydog Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 10:21am

oxrox wrote:
Reform wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aDiWiDOU7g

Looking pretty sound so far.. Noel Pearson is a gem!
"Mine, yours, ours"
"This land is my land, this land is your land"

With caveats it seems.
Such as an indigeneous woman halting Woodside from carrying out seismic testing 190kms off the WA coast because it will interfere with the whale songlines. One example.
I'm all for protecting indigenous sacret sites etc and they call the shots on native title land which I have no problem with but I do have a problem with things like this.
Woodside consulted with environmental protection etc as well as the local tribes and were given the green light on this project.

Siesmic testing deafens whales, then they die. What’s the problem with stopping that? What’s more concerning or should be is the use of anti terror police to intimidate protesters at gun point with out identifying themselves first, then using the legal system to place VRO’s on the protesters with gag orders attached. All for the CEO of Woodside. Basically state run security for a private multinational corporate CEO. It would be handy to look at the definition of fascism about now.
Also my friend who works at water corp discussed the cultural heritage under water as sea levels have risen. Apparently they had archaeologists dive over the proposed work area.
So there’s a lot going on there.

southernraw Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 10:21am

Yep. Seismic blasting is one of the loudest sounds on this planet. It's absolutely criminal they've been greenlit to go ahead off our coasts.
We need guardians of the land and ocean that can help protect it.

Reform Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 10:23am

oxrox wrote:
Reform wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aDiWiDOU7g

Looking pretty sound so far.. Noel Pearson is a gem!
"Mine, yours, ours"
"This land is my land, this land is your land"

With caveats it seems.
Such as an indigeneous woman halting Woodside from carrying out seismic testing 190kms off the WA coast because it will interfere with the whale songlines. One example.
I'm all for protecting indigenous sacret sites etc and they call the shots on native title land which I have no problem with but I do have a problem with things like this.
Woodside consulted with environmental protection etc as well as the local tribes and were given the green light on this project.

Hui Oxrox,
Now were getting into delicate territory..
Do you know how well sound travels in water? The whale song lines can extend from one side of the ocean to the other. True. Say from the depths of the southern oceans near Antarctica to the Polynesian islands is not a unreasonable assumption.
So I fully agree with the Indigenous woman to halting this. Lucky she was there and was successful. Seismic blasts sound horrific.. If you have some sympathy for maintaining sacred sites, then spare a thought for the animals in the oceans. Another example of human activity interfering with this amazing planet. What would David Attenborough think? He wouldn't condone seismic blasting in the oceans because he knows what damage it does to our eco system,. Everything is connected remember this. Every thing we do on the land wherever it is has an effect somewhere else on the land or in the oceans because 'Everything is connected. Everything!

Jelly Flater Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 10:27am

;)

https://m.

Reform Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 10:29am

Cool Jelly! Love it..

soggydog Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 10:29am

What everyone one should be concerned with is the number of times our National and state security services have been used to the benefit of Woodside itself. From the Timor-Leste act of espionage to the intimidation and legal gagging of protesters in WA our security forces have been used against us and other nations on behalf of a multinational corporation. Where are we heading.

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