The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

bluediamond started the topic in

Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

AndyM Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 10:31am

"state run security for a private multinational"

Maybe not fascist but certainly a corporatocracy and heading towards an authoritarian one.

Jelly Flater Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 10:33am

https://m.

oxrox Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 10:35am

I thought your answer would be similar to the above. I agree seismic testing is not ideal. Are you using a phone or computer to participate in this forum?
We live and take advantage of a technically advanced world. We can't stop producing gas etc until alternatives are found. Those alternatives no matter what they are will have a negative impact on the planet. Or do we rid ourselves of everything and live in caves and walk around barefoot?

southernraw Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 10:43am

Fair enough point oxrox.
Personally, i'd be happy to sacrifice all these comforts in a heartbeat.
Kinda stuck in the matrix at the moment and good luck living any semi comfortable stress free existence without the reliance on these devices...other than barefoot and caves ;-)
But your point is a worthwhile one.

soggydog Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 10:51am

oxrox wrote:
I thought your answer would be similar to the above. I agree seismic testing is not ideal. Are you using a phone or computer to participate in this forum?
We live and take advantage of a technically advanced world. We can't stop producing gas etc until alternatives are found. Those alternatives no matter what they are will have a negative impact on the planet. Or do we rid ourselves of everything and live in caves and walk around barefoot?

That’s quite reductionist and to be honest juvenile. No one disagrees that there must be mining and industry. There are energy needs. But to say that the current system and some industries can’t be changed for a fairer more equitable system without such a large environmental cost because of “yer phone, car & laptop’ is nonsense.

Reform Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 10:58am

soggydog wrote:
What everyone one should be concerned with is the number of times our National and state security services have been used to the benefit of Woodside itself. From the Timor-Leste act of espionage to the intimidation and legal gagging of protesters in WA our security forces have been used against us and other nations on behalf of a multinational corporation. Where are we heading.

From UNSW Aust Human rights institute
Which states have criminalised protest and what forms of protest are criminalised?
Human rights organisations have been increasingly critical towards some Australian states over new legislation which seemingly targets environmental protests in the midst of a global climate crisis.

There are dozens of protest regulations across many states, with five (NSW, Queensland, South Australia, Tasmania and Victoria) introducing forms of anti-protest regulation most recently. South Australia's new laws, passed just last month, increase maximum fines from $750 to $50,000 along with potential jail time, and were prompted by disruption of an oil and gas conference by protestors in early May.

In the aftermath of protests which sought to block port operations and shut down economic action to draw attention to demands for climate action, the NSW Parliament passed legislation which could see protestors face up to a $22,000 fine and/or prison for a maximum of two years. The legislation targets individuals who block major roads and new tunnels and/or disrupt port operations in major ports such as Newcastle and Port Botany.

In 2022, Tasmania passed anti-protest laws by way of the Police Offences Amendment (Workplace Protection) Bill 2022 under the guise of protecting Tasmanian workers. Under these laws, any protestor who obstructs a workplace during protests could face up to 12 months in prison, the Human Rights Law Centre reported:

“…community member protesting the destruction of old growth forests on a forestry site could face a penalty of over $13,000 or 2 years in prison; and An organisation supporting members of the community to protest could be fined over $45,000.”

Similar laws were also passed in Victoria. Anti-logging protestors who “hinder, obstruct or interfere with timber-harvesting operations” can face up to 12 months in prison and/or a $21,000 fine. PVC and metal pipes which are often used in protest activities are now prohibited in working sites, with additional powers provided to police to search suspect individuals who are “reasonably suspicious”.

In 2019, on public safety grounds, Queensland passed legislation which bans locking devices as modes of civil disobedience. These are tactics used to make it difficult for police to remove protestors and are often used by protestors to lock themselves to property and pipelines to prevent construction of environmentally-harmful projects. Protestors face up to two years in prison and/or a $6,000 fine. It was rationalised on the basis of activists lacing devices with “butane canisters” and other devices which were harmful for law enforcement. However, there is no evidence of the use of these devices.

oxrox Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 11:17am

soggydog wrote:
oxrox wrote:
I thought your answer would be similar to the above. I agree seismic testing is not ideal. Are you using a phone or computer to participate in this forum?
We live and take advantage of a technically advanced world. We can't stop producing gas etc until alternatives are found. Those alternatives no matter what they are will have a negative impact on the planet. Or do we rid ourselves of everything and live in caves and walk around barefoot?

That’s quite reductionist and to be honest juvenile. No one disagrees that there must be mining and industry. There are energy needs. But to say that the current system and some industries can’t be changed for a fairer more equitable system without such a large environmental cost because of “yer phone, car & laptop’ is nonsense.

The environmental concerns were passed by the environmental authorities. A person stopping the project due to whale songlines 190kms out to see whilst that person is on land is a little far fetched. Sound travels through water long distances. I've spent a long time in the ocean and I cant hear whales 190kms out to sea.
My argument is where do we draw the line? I'm all for reducing environmental impacts.
It was also apparently ok'd by the local indigenous and was never mentioned as a concern for them. That one person has so much power is my concern.

gsco Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 11:49am

Happy Queen’s/Monarch’s birthday.

A day to reflect, remember, appreciate and have gratitude for everything all peoples of Australia have all been equally given and blessed with, and more generally for everything humanity has been blessed with, by the British Empire, Monarchy and peoples and more generally by western civilisation.

peace and security
freedom and liberty
equal opportunity and rights
prosperity and quality of life
constitutional monarchy
liberal democracy
human rights
individual autonomy and self direction
parliamentary/representative democracy
market economy and economic development
rule of law
federalism
Westminster system
separation of powers
science, rationality and reason
Christianity
modern developed and advanced nations
multiculturalism and cultural pluralism
religious freedom and tolerance
equality under the law
constitutional neutrality
health and education
a belief in progress and development
freedom from oppression or subjugation by any kind of authority (political, religious, monarchical, etc)
freedom of thought, speech, debate and media

All of these things are shared equally by all in this great land.

Many of these things are now either ignored and taken for granted, or viewed with outright contempt and are trying to be eroded, dismantled and destroyed.

Many people in Australia are no longer grateful for many of these things, particularly today as the nation unfairly and inaccurately singles out and attacks the British Empire and western civilisation for its supposed historical sins as though they are our whole history and story and are far worse than any other peoples’ and civilisations’.

Much or indeed most of what is being said today about the British empire and the west is inaccurate and plain incorrect and untrue.

soggydog Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 11:32am

oxrox wrote:
soggydog wrote:
oxrox wrote:
I thought your answer would be similar to the above. I agree seismic testing is not ideal. Are you using a phone or computer to participate in this forum?
We live and take advantage of a technically advanced world. We can't stop producing gas etc until alternatives are found. Those alternatives no matter what they are will have a negative impact on the planet. Or do we rid ourselves of everything and live in caves and walk around barefoot?

That’s quite reductionist and to be honest juvenile. No one disagrees that there must be mining and industry. There are energy needs. But to say that the current system and some industries can’t be changed for a fairer more equitable system without such a large environmental cost because of “yer phone, car & laptop’ is nonsense.

That one person has so much power is my concern.

Who, the protester or the CEO of Woodside.

basesix Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 11:36am

for many of us gsco, QEII/KCIII birthday is 2nd Monday in June.
1st Monday in October, down here, is the 8-hour work day one.
https://monumentaustralia.org.au/themes/culture/social/display/32235-eig...

Jelly Flater Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 11:38am

‘ peace and security
freedom and liberty
equal opportunity and rights
prosperity and quality of life
constitutional monarchy
liberal democracy
human rights
individual autonomy and self direction
parliamentary/representative democracy
market economy and economic development
rule of law
federalism
Westminster system
separation of powers
science, rationality and reason
Christianity
modern developed and advanced nations
multiculturalism and cultural pluralism
religious freedom and tolerance
equality under the law
constitutional neutrality
health and education
a belief in progress and development
freedom from oppression or subjugation by any kind of authority (political, religious, monarchical, etc) ‘

… and genocide

https://m.

&pp=ygUSdHJ1Z2FuaW5pIHRhc21hbmlh

oxrox Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 11:50am

soggydog wrote:
oxrox wrote:
soggydog wrote:
oxrox wrote:
I thought your answer would be similar to the above. I agree seismic testing is not ideal. Are you using a phone or computer to participate in this forum?
We live and take advantage of a technically advanced world. We can't stop producing gas etc until alternatives are found. Those alternatives no matter what they are will have a negative impact on the planet. Or do we rid ourselves of everything and live in caves and walk around barefoot?

That’s quite reductionist and to be honest juvenile. No one disagrees that there must be mining and industry. There are energy needs. But to say that the current system and some industries can’t be changed for a fairer more equitable system without such a large environmental cost because of “yer phone, car & laptop’ is nonsense.

That one person has so much power is my concern.

Who, the protester or the CEO of Woodside.

The protester obviously has power if she can shut the project down. I'm sure you knew who I was talking about.
So everyone's cool with what Noel Pearson said in the snippet above?

Reform Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 12:04pm

Ummmm........ :( :( :( ...Reference to Truganini short film.

Reform Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 12:02pm

oxrox wrote:
soggydog wrote:
oxrox wrote:
soggydog wrote:
oxrox wrote:
I thought your answer would be similar to the above. I agree seismic testing is not ideal. Are you using a phone or computer to participate in this forum?
We live and take advantage of a technically advanced world. We can't stop producing gas etc until alternatives are found. Those alternatives no matter what they are will have a negative impact on the planet. Or do we rid ourselves of everything and live in caves and walk around barefoot?

That’s quite reductionist and to be honest juvenile. No one disagrees that there must be mining and industry. There are energy needs. But to say that the current system and some industries can’t be changed for a fairer more equitable system without such a large environmental cost because of “yer phone, car & laptop’ is nonsense.

That one person has so much power is my concern.

Who, the protester or the CEO of Woodside.

The protester obviously has power if she can shut the project down. I'm sure you knew who I was talking about.
So everyone's cool with what Noel Pearson said in the snippet above?

Calling Dr Fernbuckle? I think weve got one!

Jelly Flater Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 12:07pm

https://m.

oxrox Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 12:07pm

Jeezus............ I'm bored already....... catch ya

soggydog Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 12:45pm

oxrox wrote:
soggydog wrote:
oxrox wrote:
soggydog wrote:
oxrox wrote:
I thought your answer would be similar to the above. I agree seismic testing is not ideal. Are you using a phone or computer to participate in this forum?
We live and take advantage of a technically advanced world. We can't stop producing gas etc until alternatives are found. Those alternatives no matter what they are will have a negative impact on the planet. Or do we rid ourselves of everything and live in caves and walk around barefoot?

That’s quite reductionist and to be honest juvenile. No one disagrees that there must be mining and industry. There are energy needs. But to say that the current system and some industries can’t be changed for a fairer more equitable system without such a large environmental cost because of “yer phone, car & laptop’ is nonsense.

That one person has so much power is my concern.

Who, the protester or the CEO of Woodside.

The protester obviously has power if she can shut the project down. I'm sure you knew who I was talking about.
So everyone's cool with what Noel Pearson said in the snippet above?

And the CEO has the power in WA to have protesters physically intimidated and gagged. One got through and the project was halted legally in court. Who used the justice system in the most just way?

Jelly Flater Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 12:47pm

;)

https://m.

basesix Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 3:18pm

Anyone interested in writing, Ursula K LeGuin's 5-page piece 'The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas', super interesting style, dream-like, vague, specific, meta, self-aware, fableish, memoryish..

TBB's 'flibberty jib' Nordine jazz record brought it to mind, metaphor can be powerful when a thing is complicated, and 'Omelas' seems relevant to this thread..

https://shsdavisapes.pbworks.com/f/Omelas.pdf

Jelly Flater Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 3:23pm

V nice basesix

https://m.

Supafreak Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 4:10pm

The cognitive dissonance being shown by some in the “No” campaign is astounding
There was something deeply sad about Garigarra Riley-Mundine’s brave and graceful intervention into the Voice referendum debate. Riley-Mundine, the daughter of leading “No” campaigner Warren Mundine, said her father’s actions went against what she was raised to see as “morally right”, saying she was hurt by his claim that the Uluru statement was a “symbolic declaration of war” – something Mundine must surely know to be false. “It hurt because I feel that the Uluru statement came from a place of unity,” said the Wiradjuri-Kamilaroi/Bundjalung-Yuin woman, who does not speak to her father much. “We’re not trying to take over anything; we are literally just asking for a Voice.” It was hard not to share in her pain over the CPAC comedian her father has repeatedly refused to condemn, who in a so-called joke referred to traditional owners as “violent black men”. Mundine, the chair of CPAC, “surely must have been hurt by those words”, his daughter opined, noting they hurt her heart as a Black woman. Does the racism coming from the “No” camp no longer hurt Mundine, a long-time Indigenous advocate, who still backs treaties and changing the date of Australia Day? Why does he feel the need to accept such jokes and excuse racist tweets, blaming the referendum for having “opened up the door” to this?
https://www.themonthly.com.au/the-politics/rachel-withers/2023/10/02/dis...

Reform Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 5:21pm

oxrox wrote:
soggydog wrote:
oxrox wrote:
soggydog wrote:
oxrox wrote:
I thought your answer would be similar to the above. I agree seismic testing is not ideal. Are you using a phone or computer to participate in this forum?
We live and take advantage of a technically advanced world. We can't stop producing gas etc until alternatives are found. Those alternatives no matter what they are will have a negative impact on the planet. Or do we rid ourselves of everything and live in caves and walk around barefoot?

That’s quite reductionist and to be honest juvenile. No one disagrees that there must be mining and industry. There are energy needs. But to say that the current system and some industries can’t be changed for a fairer more equitable system without such a large environmental cost because of “yer phone, car & laptop’ is nonsense.

That one person has so much power is my concern.

Who, the protester or the CEO of Woodside.

The protester obviously has power if she can shut the project down. I'm sure you knew who I was talking about.
So everyone's cool with what Noel Pearson said in the snippet above?

Hey Oxy,
I thought I’d better reply to you without playing games, so I’ll start again to give my take on Noel Pearson’s address at the Press Club.
Regarding the above post video from Sky news. This passage was taken completely out of context, if you watch the full speech he gave you'll understand that the content has been fabricated by the people at Sky news deliberately to smear his character and to suck people in to watching their channel. Vulnerable, easily swayed people to get them to vote No in this campaign.
I don’t know what benefits they get from doing this, maybe its ratings to get viewers on their channel or they get donations from the LNP party. For sure they’re all in it together. And they aren’t a good bunch, so my advice is to be discerning as to what these nay sayers say and beware of their lies and deceit and bending of the truth.
What you are witnessing here in Noel Pearson is a great leader and Elder who is regarded by many people in Parliament, in the general community and from his own indigenous people in the highest regard. A man who speaks truth and from the heart. And we should be in awe that we can witness his presence and listen to his words of wisdom for they are profound! That he is alive within our lifetime, what a privilege for us, He’s a one off, not a oncer but a man who has unrelenting energy and is at the forefront of support not only for his own people, but for all of Multicultural Australia, He is progressive, fair and not just good but a rare and true great within our lifetime. I'm outa here.. Cheers

Supafreak Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 5:49pm

Garigarra Riley-Mundine can’t stay silent about her father, Warren, any longer. https://x.com/nareldajacobs10/status/1708697465069977705?s=46&t=5RczxwAf...

Jelly Flater Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 5:51pm

“Much or indeed most of what is being said today about the British empire and the west is inaccurate and plain incorrect and untrue.”

https://m.

burleigh Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 6:27pm

Imagine the bed wetting by you lot if this was reversed.

View this post on Instagram

Supafreak Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 6:35pm

@burleigh did you bother looking at the last 7 posts ?

Jelly Flater Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 7:11pm

Exactly. Check out 20:45 - 22.30 of bringing them home vid…

andy-mac Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 7:18pm

Was not liking this man last night, but has a good message.
Legend player and good bloke by all reports.
Vote Yes!

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/oct/02/indigenous-voice-to-parlia...

indo-dreaming Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 7:36pm

oxrox wrote:
So everyone's cool with what Noel Pearson said?

You mean this video Udo posted yeah?

I cant believe this isn't getting attention in the media, he basically is trying to divide non indigenous Australian's into two groups white and anyone of colour and literally trying to pit them against each other all in a bid to try to get votes from people of colour.

Maybe its because i have a wife of colour but this really pisses me off what a low life piece of trash.

udo wrote:
https://youtu.be/ayE76bbv764?si=h44ybtJ0OBP_LhHd

truebluebasher Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 7:35pm

Day 1 Postal Vote Review.

Wazza's [YES] daughter reaches out to Flip Flopping Darth Vader Dad to return from the Darkside
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12582219/Warren-Mundines-daught...

No Camp can't work out why [YES] AFL / NRL Never Letter bombed the Final...
Albo was grooming winning NRL Captain to come out today...Yes! Yes! Yes!
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/oct/02/indigenous-voice-to-parlia...

Given that Aussies paid $25 / Pamphlet & never got them on time.
Friday > by latest Today Monday was D Day for Dutto's mandated Voice Booklets
AEC Postal Votes can't wait & start without Dutto's Drop... 2 weeks prior to Reffo Day!

Instead...Voters were posted 2 lots of Postal Votes (Spare is for yer imaginary soggy dead LBGTQI Uncle!)

Day 1 ~ 35,000 [YES] Volunteers queued behind only [NO] Volunteer voter who took all day to Vote.

35,000 Votes cast today in Vic / Tas / NT / WA closed @ midday.
Postal Vote Rego Stats
2019 ~ 1.5m
2022 ~ 2.7m or (Day 1 / 2.3m)
Reffo ~ (11th Sept > Day 1 / 1.6m) 11th Oct ~ Postal Vote Closes
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-02/voice-referendum-voting-day-is-oc...

AEC : How to cast a Postal Vote...ABC TV version.

[4:15] AEC : "2x Postal Votes are for 2x [yes/no] Voice Ballot instructions for 2 Envelopes...
Voters accidentally submit 2 postal Votes getting the details different on both applications...
If ya don't Know ...just Vote wrong Twice!"

[Yes] Voters in fear of their Lives can Vote Early.
Reclaiming Australia Bullies out on bail can Bully [Yes] Voters to Vote [NO] up until next Wed' cut off!
Glass towers deflect Voldemort's evil spells...[NO] Camp are frightened of bright shiny CBD Booths!
Murdoch is worried 'bout CBD uprising & now freely voicing his Courier Mail mouth piece.
https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/where-and-how-to-vote-on-...

PM : "Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Yes 23 Rainbow Oz anymore!"
"Wotz all these foreboding [NO] Signs & these weird Indigenous [YES] Signs are in Chinese!"

Liberal Party Media are modelling their one & only Blue with Orange Sign [Vote NO to the Voice of DIVISION]
https://www.dailyliberal.com.au/story/8371293/early-polling-opens-as-ref...

tbb feels like a dirty stinking Bully after dumping a [YES] Vote in a Newscorp Litter Tray.
Hodad [YES] Crew can Troll Vote the Fox Gromz site to Skyrocket a Newscorp [YES] Victory!
https://www.kidsnews.com.au/indigenous-news/what-happens-on-october-14-a...

Bonus Election News
Kiwi Tassies can sing in Oz Voice + NZ Fed Election + Shock Tas State Poll
Can Vote [yes/no] 4 Wall 2 Wall Intercontinental ALP + Pay for an extra 40% Tas Pollies

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-02/tas-election-on-table-after-arche...
https://apnews.com/article/early-voting-new-zealand-australia-9e1bfd5aeb...

indo-dreaming Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 7:41pm

Supafreak wrote:
The cognitive dissonance being shown by some in the “No” campaign is astounding
There was something deeply sad about Garigarra Riley-Mundine’s brave and graceful intervention into the Voice referendum debate. Riley-Mundine, the daughter of leading “No” campaigner Warren Mundine, said her father’s actions went against what she was raised to see as “morally right”, saying she was hurt by his claim that the Uluru statement was a “symbolic declaration of war” – something Mundine must surely know to be false. “It hurt because I feel that the Uluru statement came from a place of unity,” said the Wiradjuri-Kamilaroi/Bundjalung-Yuin woman, who does not speak to her father much. “We’re not trying to take over anything; we are literally just asking for a Voice.” It was hard not to share in her pain over the CPAC comedian her father has repeatedly refused to condemn, who in a so-called joke referred to traditional owners as “violent black men”. Mundine, the chair of CPAC, “surely must have been hurt by those words”, his daughter opined, noting they hurt her heart as a Black woman. Does the racism coming from the “No” camp no longer hurt Mundine, a long-time Indigenous advocate, who still backs treaties and changing the date of Australia Day? Why does he feel the need to accept such jokes and excuse racist tweets, blaming the referendum for having “opened up the door” to this?
https://www.themonthly.com.au/the-politics/rachel-withers/2023/10/02/dis...

I really feel for Warren it must be heartbreaking to bring up a child thinking you have brought them up well and then for her to publicly disagree like this (same deal with Lidia thorpe and her father), ive seen photos of Warren and wider family supporting him though.

Even if she didnt share his stance, she shouldn't have gone public, im sure one day she will deeply regret doing so.

I think back to my teens and twenties and the stupid arguments i had with my parents as a brain dead leftie, some things i still remember that i really regret saying as were personal, i really cant believe how well my parents dealt with it looking back, they were so patient and i was so young dumb and naive.

The good news is me and my folks now agree on pretty much all aspects of politics which has actually brought us closer than ever..

AndyM Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 7:46pm

“it must be heartbreaking to bring up a child thinking you have brought them up well and then for her to publicly disagree like this”

Wow, the authoritarianism and possibly sexism coming off this statement is pretty wild.

cd Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 7:47pm

This whole Voice campaign in my opinion is just a shit show and has/is causing significant divide. My gut feeling tells me the people/ organisations/ backers of both the yes and no campaigners have hidden agendas and alterum motives.

sameaswas Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 7:51pm

The yes23 are allways saying the fnp want this voice to parliament this is a lie.
Pearson and marcia and all the other old activists have created this voice and have cajoled the rest along for their own power grab.
Everything they want is "in play" by the previous govt, and the voice mob have overseen the lack of education, dv, and all of the disease, poor nutrition and the corruption of childrens minds towards white ppl over their entire lives.
There mate jack thompson the breaker morant movie actor said at 98 garma festival ok for kids not to speak english and the voice architects agree with him and this reffo has woke ppl up to how bad it is, and marcia's mob have done bugger all in 40+yrs except cause trouble and allow antisocial behaviour to flourish.

cd Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 8:01pm

swas- agree

adam12 Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 8:10pm

@Andy M

“it must be heartbreaking to bring up a child thinking you have brought them up well and then for her to publicly disagree like this”(@Indo)

Wow, the authoritarianism and possibly sexism coming off this statement is pretty wild".

Yeah, like it must be heartbreaking to grow up in a Labor household with left leaning values thinking your father is a good man and then to watch him sell out those values, flip sides, and head a campaign at the behest of the minerals council, the IPA, and head up CPAC where he brushes off racist jokes about FNP and sells out the interests of his own people for his own political and financial interests and then have to muster the guts to publicly disagree with him. Must be heartbreaking for her.

adam12 Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 8:13pm

Sameaswas "Pearson and marcia and all the other old activists have created this voice and have cajoled the rest along for their own power grab."

Power grab?
It is a non binding advisory body.
It has no fucking power.
Stop inventing bullshit to cover for your racism.

Fliplid Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 8:16pm

“I really feel for Warren it must be heartbreaking to bring up a child thinking you have brought them up well and then for her to publicly disagree like this”

Maybe she’s still pissed off with Warren for screwing around behind her mum’s back, on multiple occassions

By the way, I’m guessing you didn’t watch the full unedited clip where, a few seconds after Sky cut to the pommy muppet, Pearson actually continues with

“..we bring together indigenous peoples and their heritage with the British Heritage of this country and with this marvellous multicultural heritage that we have developed here in Australia. That is the dividend for all Australians we come to recognize all three stories of Australia…”

So far from being racist he’s being inclusive but once again you’ve taken the bait and you’ve been “hooked” on another pile of offal

indo-dreaming Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 8:39pm

Fliplid wrote:
“I really feel for Warren it must be heartbreaking to bring up a child thinking you have brought them up well and then for her to publicly disagree like this”

Maybe she’s still pissed off with Warren for screwing around behind her mum’s back, on multiple occassions

Argh okay so there is clearly much more to this then, that would make sense then..

Still sad though.

indo-dreaming Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 8:50pm

AndyM wrote:
“it must be heartbreaking to bring up a child thinking you have brought them up well and then for her to publicly disagree like this”

Wow, the authoritarianism and possibly sexism coming off this statement is pretty wild.

The way you try to twist shit is just fkn unbelievable, but very creative.

Its totally irrelevant if it was coming from a son or a daughter, no parent would want their child dissing them publicly, its not about controlling them, its about respect for each other and respect for family, it goes both ways a parent would never do that to a child publicly either, but if there is already a family fracture and other issues there as been suggested then yeah not so surprising.

BTW. You still havent addressed my question about PNG though have you?

I knew you wouldn't through because you are too gutless to even have a go, you are just all about one line trolls from the sideline.

seeds Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 8:51pm

Jeebus Indo that’s exactly how I read it. You have no self awareness.

indo-dreaming Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 8:53pm

Fliplid wrote:
By the way, I’m guessing you didn’t watch the full unedited clip where, a few seconds after Sky cut to the pommy muppet, Pearson actually continues with

“..we bring together indigenous peoples and their heritage with the British Heritage of this country and with this marvellous multicultural heritage that we have developed here in Australia. That is the dividend for all Australians we come to recognize all three stories of Australia…”

So far from being racist he’s being inclusive but once again you’ve taken the bait and you’ve been “hooked” on another pile of offal

It would be interesting to see the before and after, but from what you have just said, i cant see how that changes what he has said.

adam12 Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 9:06pm

Indo
"Argh okay so there is clearly much more to this then, that would make sense then.."

Maybe you should do some of your "resurch" and look into what your hero Mundine's first wife has to say about him and his behavior toward his family.
He's a fucken grub.

southernraw Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 9:12pm

Just resharing this legend.

Supafreak Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 9:18pm

adam12 wrote:
Indo
"Argh okay so there is clearly much more to this then, that would make sense then.."

Maybe you should do some of your "resurch" and look into what your hero Mundine's first wife has to say about him and his behavior toward his family.
He's a fucken grub.

And look who he married and his new father inlaw https://www.smh.com.au/national/shattered-lingering-pain-of-mundine-divo...

indo-dreaming Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 9:20pm

adam12 wrote:
Indo
"Argh okay so there is clearly much more to this then, that would make sense then.."

Maybe you should do some of your "resurch" and look into what your hero Mundine's first wife has to say about him and his behavior toward his family.
He's a fucken grub.

Yeah because X partners are always such a reliable non bias honest source of info when providing info on their X partners .

adam12 Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 9:24pm

"Yeah because X partners are always such a reliable non bias honest source of info when providing info on their X partners ."
Just go read what she has to say before you call her a liar.

Rabbits68 Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 9:32pm

@Indo She’s entitled to a different point of view to that of her old man. It’s not disrespectful. Given his public presence, it’s courageous.

I thought you supported strong women. I can only imagine what high praise you would have for her if she was publicly supporting her old man’s views. Hypocrite.

Fliplid Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 9:37pm

@indo: “It would be interesting to see the before and after, but from what you have just said, i cant see how that changes what he has said.”

Time stamp for the video indo is 41.50 to 43.55. 2 minutes of your life to compare what he actually said with the severely edited clip and vile, unhinged rant from the Sky video put up by Udo

“…because we can move to an Australia where the indigenous, the British descendants and the multicultural mob become one and we all know we’re Australians, there’s no priority among us, we’re all equally Australians and the settler native thing kind of retreats into history. It’ll be a great day when we do that, a great day for multicultural communities too because they’ll know unequivocally that they are Australians as much as the rest of us, as much as the white fellas from the United Kingdom and as much as the black fellas from Australia, the multicultural communities are Australians”

AndyM Monday, 2 Oct 2023 at 9:37pm

seeds wrote:
Jeebus Indo that’s exactly how I read it. You have no self awareness.

Yep, I was expecting zero self-awareness as well.

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