The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

bluediamond started the topic in

Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

Michael Adam Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 3:30pm

How to reason with a leftist.
Satire? or……

https://yuribezmenov.substack.com/p/how-to-reason-with-a-demoralized-per...

andy-mac Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 3:31pm

Yep....

View this post on Instagram

sameaswas Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 3:38pm

just read that king billy (briggs) and his mate released new music video for the yes23 campaign have'nt seen it yet.

allso saw the islamic imans all over oz are exhorting there followers to all vote yes at todays prayers and next friday as well i guess.

so much for our democratic seperation of state and religion, oh and they want a voice too.

harrycoopr Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 3:58pm

sameaswas wrote:
basesix wrote:
Briggs on 10 Midday. He mentioned swellnet's burleigh!

is this the same briggs that is AB Briggs? allso goes by the rapper name of king billy??

ALL SWELLNET google this fat racist's music videos and be shocked at his lyrics, the contempt towards white ppl and encourageing acts of violence towards anyone not black.

he is a racist bigot and a hypocrite, and yet the yes23 think he is a good role model for fnp youth!

seriously go watch his music videos and then see what a two faced arsehole he really is.
aw and his mob drive around listening to this "bash whitey propaganda".

U do know why many blackfellas harbor a lot of anger towards whitey, don't you ?? And not just cos of history.

southernraw Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 4:00pm

Indigenous Governance
The Harvard Project on Native American Economic
Development and appropriate principles of governance
for Aboriginal Australia Excerpt...
" We must note that the first principle, sovereignty, is not as contentious a term
in North America as it is in Australia. The idea that some measure of sovereignty is
retained by indigenous nations in North America is commonplace and in some cases is
reflected in the law such as the different tax status that some North American Indian
communities enjoy. It is reflected also in ownership of resources such as timber, and in
AIATSIS Research Discussion Paper No. 17 9
self-governance arrangements in some areas, for instance in the operation of Native
American courts. Yet Australians are wary about importing this concept of sovereignty
from America into the Australian situation since there is substantial political sensitivity
attached to it. This has been evident in the current Australian government’s response to
the question of self-determination of indigenous peoples during debates over the draft
Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. ‘Sovereignty’ in Australia, like ‘selfdetermination’, is glossed as ‘separatism’, another failed policy of the left-socialist past
(e.g. Hughes and Warrin 2005). In the current political climate, sovereignty, the word
rather than the concept is a back-lash trigger of some intensity (as are ‘racism’,
‘genocide’ and cultural rights in general). Where the Harvard work has been used in an
Australian context, the word ‘sovereignty’ has been dropped in favour of other
terminologies such as ‘political jurisdiction’ (Dodson and Smith 2003:9). The Harvard
studies in any case are not primarily concerned with the structural relationship that
indigenous peoples have with the state. Cornell and Kalt’s intention is to address the
control that people have over their own lives and the control that they have over the
activities that happen in their communities (e.g. Cornell and Kalt 1992:14-15; Cornell
2002:2, 4-5).
What Cornell and Kalt said is simply that, if people have control of decisionmaking over the activities that are going to happen on their lands, and some control over
the benefits of that activity, then they are likely to make much better decisions. The idea
of sovereignty as expressing political rights asserted by one group against another, and
so control over resources and territory, is as foreign to the Harvard studies as it is to
current Australian thinking. Cornell is correct, of course. Where people are asked to
make decisions without any real control, they may make extremely irresponsible
decisions because of lack of repercussion on the person making the decision; or they
make decisions with good will that are nevertheless ill-informed; or decisions may be
made by those who just don’t care one way or another. This is very common in
Australian Aboriginal communities that are continually subjected to ‘consultation’
about what they think about something that is about to happen, without any control over
whether it will happen (or, indeed, whether they think that something else ought to
happen). The results of consultation are inconsistent since those affected have no real
control over the course of the project or its outcomes.
What the Harvard project found is not surprising: Where people really feel that they
are able to have some effect on a proposal, and that the results of their decisions are
going to have some long-term effect on themselves, then they will think about it much
more seriously and will get better information about it. They probably also tend to take
more balanced and more conservative decisions. When that happens over a period of
time there is a ‘feedback loop’ of experience, where decision-makers learn from their
last decision and use that experience to make the next one. They get better and better at
understanding how to make good decisions. What Cornell and his co-researchers
propose is that, if external operators want to get good, balanced and productive
decisions out of Aboriginal communities, good for the external players as much as the
community itself, then they have to relinquish much external control to the communities
(Cornell and Kalt 1992:14-15; Begay and Kalt 2002:3-4; Cornell and Kalt 1998:29-30).
Clearly, that message goes down very well among indigenous groups in Australia. "
https://aiatsis.gov.au/sites/default/files/research_pub/sullivanp-dp17-i...

basesix Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 4:08pm

sameaswas wrote:
basesix wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QereR0CViMY
onya, sameaswas, online counterculture is truly impressive.

haha love monty python, fast forward to the scene in the movie where they are going on about "what have the romans done for us?!!" kind of appropriate for the current reffo imo.

wow! well played : ) agree with that!
nothing is mutually exclusive, except in the minds of drones and pedants.

waveman Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 4:42pm

andy-mac wrote:
Yep....

https://www.instagram.com/p/CyCZxAIyC7X/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

This is the latest yes campaign strategy: calling no voters stupid. And a good dose of anti-Australian sentiment thrown in there too. They can’t just make their case (because they don’t have one) , so they attack the opposition. It’s no surprise polls continue to go against them. Blaming everyone except themselves.

burleigh Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 4:43pm

southernraw wrote:
burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
And to each poster who calls someone out (rightfully usually) and then backs away and apologizes. Don't bloody apologise and don't back down.
These grubs deserve to be called out for the poorly human traits they're displaying.

Southerncooked is sooking again.

Hey hellman behind your keyboard.
You wanna reply to this? Or gonna run away scared again?
"It's very obvious Burleigh is just a troll.
Can anyone recall him ever posting anything of substance?
Its in his name. Berley. Just here to get bites.
I ask you Berley, why are you here?
One of the reasons i browsed back through the beginning of this thread earlier was to see where it all came undone, because it was a very respectful discussion at one point.
Pretty much all the same posters that are still here, except you, were all posting thoughtful, insightful, or at the very least attempting to debate with at least some level of research.
But there was never a snarky, ill educated sniper like yourself that would constantly berate users without actually posting any thoughts or researched facts of any substance like yourself.
All you do is post instagram links of suss looking groups of sovereign citizens and name call other users.
So i ask you Burleigh. What are you actually doing here?
If not to actually debate, you're just a troll and i'm pretty sure that goes against the code of conduct set out by this website."

You don't like that i have an opposing view to yours and you don't like what a share (which is relevant) to this chat.

Bet you're fun at parties Southern or maybe you didn't get enough hugs as a kid.

indo-dreaming Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 4:49pm

gsco wrote:
thanks for the jp interview sypkan.

VJ, I've been aware of the Ramsay Centre for a while. It's fascinating that they're pushing for some basic, elementary history courses to be taught in Australian universities but are experiencing almost blanket pushback. Our universities are well down the critical theory, post-structuralism, critical race theory rabbit holes.

Also, thanks for the article. And what do you know, on the front page of the Quadrant is a book diagnosing another fabrication and pathology of the Yes campaign, which many people in here are displaying clear-cut symptoms of (and probably should go to the doctor to get checked): Romancing the primitive.

book review wrote:
...romanticising the primitive dominates Australian intellectual and cultural life, becoming an obsession and virtually a religion.

Millions of Australians now obsess over the idea that race matters above everything and accept racist absurdities: people of Aboriginal descent are inherently wise and good-natured as well as naturally expert custodians and conservators of the land, while people of non-Aboriginal descent are, by nature and in contrast, alienated and unconnected.

Every day, millions of people take part in cult practices that divide the world into indigenous and non-indigenous, believing a farrago of New Age Aboriginal spirituality proclaims the one true path to moral improvement.

Romancing the Primitive defends science against superstition and liberalism against thralldom, seeking to reinstate genuine intellectual inquiry and discovery and build debate on real information. Along the way, the narrative critically visits the Uluru statement, the High Court and education in Australian schools and universities.

Surf's pumping today...

That book would be interesting.

"This book is about civilisation’s discontents, those who have idealised people outside of civilisation, imagining they lead happy, fulfilling lives at peace with one another and in harmony with the world around them. For most of this time, romanticising this ‘other’ constituted one strand in the thick rope of Western thought and reflection and knowledge of the human heart. Today, however, romanticising the primitive dominates Australian intellectual and cultural life, becoming an obsession and virtually a religion. The once single fibre now constitutes almost the entire rope.

Romancing the Primitive: The Myth of the Ecological Aborigine traces the roots of this religion, surveying primitivism — the unending revolt of the civilised against civilisation — from Hesiod to Tacitus, from the Medieval Church to Montaigne, from Rousseau to the twentieth-century Australian environment movement and its apotheosis in the works of Henry Reynolds, Bill Gammage, Bruce Pascoe, and Peter Sutton.

Romancing the Primitive defends science against superstition and liberalism against thralldom, seeking to reinstate genuine intellectual inquiry and discovery and build debate on real information. Along the way, the narrative critically visits the Uluru statement, the High Court and education in Australian schools and universities."

udo Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 4:51pm

?si=4uu4_GDs4upSbTpz

velocityjohnno Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 4:55pm

groom a boomer

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/young-australians-urged-to-gr...

southernraw Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 5:02pm

burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
And to each poster who calls someone out (rightfully usually) and then backs away and apologizes. Don't bloody apologise and don't back down.
These grubs deserve to be called out for the poorly human traits they're displaying.

Southerncooked is sooking again.

Hey hellman behind your keyboard.
You wanna reply to this? Or gonna run away scared again?
"It's very obvious Burleigh is just a troll.
Can anyone recall him ever posting anything of substance?
Its in his name. Berley. Just here to get bites.
I ask you Berley, why are you here?
One of the reasons i browsed back through the beginning of this thread earlier was to see where it all came undone, because it was a very respectful discussion at one point.
Pretty much all the same posters that are still here, except you, were all posting thoughtful, insightful, or at the very least attempting to debate with at least some level of research.
But there was never a snarky, ill educated sniper like yourself that would constantly berate users without actually posting any thoughts or researched facts of any substance like yourself.
All you do is post instagram links of suss looking groups of sovereign citizens and name call other users.
So i ask you Burleigh. What are you actually doing here?
If not to actually debate, you're just a troll and i'm pretty sure that goes against the code of conduct set out by this website."

You don't like that i have an opposing view to yours and you don't like what a share (which is relevant) to this chat.

Bet you're fun at parties Southern or maybe you didn't get enough hugs as a kid.

Again more insults, but little from the keyboard warrior. What is it that you share?? Instagram posts?? You fucking kidding me? I've asked you 5times on here to justify your stance on how indigenous lives in Australia are on the improve, when clearly education attendance rates are dropping, and also incarceration rates continue to rise. Yet you flatly refuse to answer these questions.
That's called being an idiot, and someone who just wants to troll the conversation.
If anyone didn't get hugs as a kid, its the one that comes to an internet forum daily and looks to bait people engaging in a mostly civil discussion. A discussion mate. You should look up the definition of that.
I don't agree with alot of people, but i respect them for putting their thoughts out there.
How about you actually put some effort into some of your own thoughts you post on here.
This topic isn't just for a laugh, and i'm not here to make friends.
I'm here to rattle cages of people like yourself that are blase and don't respect the historical facts of this country and where it currently leaves our indigenous people.
Think about it.

southernraw Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 5:09pm

@gsco, this is a great podcast that i think would be worth your time if you want a detailed perspective.
I definitely don't think you're an idiot, unlike some obvious exceptions on here, in fact i think you're the opposite of that, however i do get the feeling that your perceived political agenda behind all this is blocking you from being open to the people at the centre of this whole debate (not the politicians!)
This would be a great podcast for anyone who's undecided to listen to as well, as it contains timeline and facts that got us to this important decision.
Considering we hold the lives of so many in our hands when we vote yes or no, i think it's the least we can all do to give up one hour of our time to listen to this.
Cheers and hope you got some waves gsco. Bombing down here too.
https://podcasts.apple.com/jp/podcast/thomas-mayo-first-nations-voice-to...

sameaswas Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 5:22pm

harrycoopr wrote:
sameaswas wrote:
basesix wrote:
Briggs on 10 Midday. He mentioned swellnet's burleigh!

is this the same briggs that is AB Briggs? allso goes by the rapper name of king billy??

ALL SWELLNET google this fat racist's music videos and be shocked at his lyrics, the contempt towards white ppl and encourageing acts of violence towards anyone not black.

he is a racist bigot and a hypocrite, and yet the yes23 think he is a good role model for fnp youth!

seriously go watch his music videos and then see what a two faced arsehole he really is.
aw and his mob drive around listening to this "bash whitey propaganda".

U do know why many blackfellas harbor a lot of anger towards whitey, don't you ?? And not just cos of history.

yes i do harry and it's called racism...to prejudge someone by the colour of their skin or their accent and or their country of origin and i would say this reffo has added; to blame someone or race because of past sins (allegedly).

indo-dreaming Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 5:34pm

velocityjohnno wrote:
groom a boomer

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/young-australians-urged-to-gr...

This shit pisses me off, imagine it flipped and the article was boomers urged to educate the young to vote No instead of Yes.

Ive said it so many times before but its such a battle of David and Goliath, every night on TV i see Yes camp ads one after another, but yet to see a no ad.

Where the fuck are these No campaign ads?

Just got a Yes pamphlet in the mail that went straight in the bin, the kunts are like cashed up religious nutters trying to convert everyone.

Im going to be so pissed off if the Yes camp somehow swings things only because they have so much money and basically buy it

gsco Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 5:38pm

I'll take a listen southernraw. btw I also read the longer cut-n-pastes you've done just above and a few pages ago, and it's what got me thinking about perceptions and intentions about self-determination.

And you're pretty perceptive. Standing in the carpark this morning (surf was great) I was thinking the same thing. I know I have a very anti-ALP agenda right now due to them ignoring basic economic solutions to inequality/cost of living/property affordability problems the nation faces, but I know there is more at stake with The Voice than my little tiff (even though the ALP should not be let off the hook with these failings).

basesix and harry have also said interesting things (although basesix is a complete enigma to me, and harry could be a little more polite).

I as much as anyone else on this planet want good outcomes for FNPs. There's real peoples' lives and welfare at stake.

harrycoopr Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 5:41pm

sameaswas wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
sameaswas wrote:
basesix wrote:
Briggs on 10 Midday. He mentioned swellnet's burleigh!

is this the same briggs that is AB Briggs? allso goes by the rapper name of king billy??

ALL SWELLNET google this fat racist's music videos and be shocked at his lyrics, the contempt towards white ppl and encourageing acts of violence towards anyone not black.

he is a racist bigot and a hypocrite, and yet the yes23 think he is a good role model for fnp youth!

seriously go watch his music videos and then see what a two faced arsehole he really is.
aw and his mob drive around listening to this "bash whitey propaganda".

U do know why many blackfellas harbor a lot of anger towards whitey, don't you ?? And not just cos of history.

yes i do harry and it's called racism...to prejudge someone by the colour of their skin or their accent and or their country of origin and i would say this reffo has added; to blame someone or race because of past sins (allegedly).

Honestly yr a bigger idiot than burley... and that's saying something! Just imagine - if you can- that the Chinese did to us what our ancestors did to the blackfellas (and what continues to affect them)... just think about it kNObbo

indo-dreaming Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 5:41pm

southernraw wrote:
@gsco, this is a great podcast that i think would be worth your time if you want a detailed perspective.
I definitely don't think you're an idiot, unlike some obvious exceptions on here, in fact i think you're the opposite of that, however i do get the feeling that your perceived political agenda behind all this is blocking you from being open to the people at the centre of this whole debate (not the politicians!)
This would be a great podcast for anyone who's undecided to listen to as well, as it contains timeline and facts that got us to this important decision.
Considering we hold the lives of so many in our hands when we vote yes or no, i think it's the least we can all do to give up one hour of our time to listen to this.
Cheers and hope you got some waves gsco. Bombing down here too.
https://podcasts.apple.com/jp/podcast/thomas-mayo-first-nations-voice-to...

Thomas Mayo is perhaps the worst of them all dodgy as all fk.

southernraw Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 5:49pm

Cheers indo. Made me like him more!

harrycoopr Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 5:50pm

People must be seeing by now just how toxic the No campaign is as are the kNObs running it... the absolute crazy lies and bullshit spewin from their deranged minds. It's really unbelievable... it's even crazier than the Mabo decision reactionaries...that was more outright racism. This is just pure crazy. So good seeing Albo steering a calm ship on these crazy seas... a true Statesman and diplomat... his single mum and housing trust roots have given his a genuine humility... unlike those nastyUgly privateskool racketeers of the Coalition. It's all so obvious!

andy-mac Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 6:06pm

waveman wrote:
andy-mac wrote:
Yep....

https://www.instagram.com/p/CyCZxAIyC7X/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

This is the latest yes campaign strategy: calling no voters stupid. And a good dose of anti-Australian sentiment thrown in there too. They can’t just make their case (because they don’t have one) , so they attack the opposition. It’s no surprise polls continue to go against them. Blaming everyone except themselves.

Or could be a satirical website taking the piss 乁⁠(⁠ ⁠•⁠_⁠•⁠ ⁠)⁠ㄏ

Supafreak Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 6:15pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
velocityjohnno wrote:
groom a boomer

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/young-australians-urged-to-gr...

This shit pisses me off, imagine it flipped and the article was boomers urged to educate the young to vote No instead of Yes.

Ive said it so many times before but its such a battle of David and Goliath, every night on TV i see Yes camp ads one after another, but yet to see a no ad.

Where the fuck are these No campaign ads?

Just got a Yes pamphlet in the mail that went straight in the bin, the kunts are like cashed up religious nutters trying to convert everyone.

Im going to be so pissed off if the Yes camp somehow swings things only because they have so much money and basically buy it

I don’t watch much tv these days so haven’t seen any advertising. I did receive a no pamphlet today and got a bit of a laugh out of it , there is some funny shit in that pamphlet especially the “ will australia day be abolished ? People do realise that Wazza wants this to happen. He seems confused on what he does and doesn’t want , will this divide him & JP ? Don’t know if we will be the envy of the world if no gets up .

indo-dreaming Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 6:23pm

Well thats good news that No leaflet's are out there.

I probably shouldn't have been such a lazy bastard and signed up to help drop a few in my neighbourhood.

BTW. Had to laugh today, someone must have put up some big Yes signs in the local bus stop overnight, but by the arvo they both had a big No sprayed over the yes.

Supafreak Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 6:23pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
Well thats good news that No leaflet's are out there.

So you like lies and misinformation ? I can smell the fear .

indo-dreaming Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 6:37pm

Supafreak wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
Well thats good news that No leaflet's are out there.

So you like lies and misinformation ? I can smell the fear .

What do you think is lies or misinformation on that leaflet you have provided?

You know what lies and misinformation is

When you try to claim adding another chapter to the constitution a race based body is a modest thing, its totally not.

When you claim a 26 page document is only one page, and the document is even on the Government website for all to see and even its creators are on record saying its more than one page

When you say it has nothing to do with Treaty when its made clear in the USFTH the process is Voice-Treaty-Truth telling, and even wears a T-shirt saying this,

Thats lies and misinformation..

The voice is their product that they are trying to sell to Australians, but how can anyone trust them when they are so full of shit?

The No camp aren't selling a product, they are just warning anyone looking to buy in, this product is dodgy, buyer beware.

Supafreak Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 6:43pm

@indo , what is the voice to parliament ? Does it have powers to change laws ? Or is it an advisory body to the government of the day ? What is the question on the ballot paper ? Don’t be blinded by fear and bullshit indo , vote yes .

indo-dreaming Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 6:58pm

I honestly wouldn't vote yes even if you bought me a return ticket to Indo.

andy-mac Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 6:59pm

Supafreak wrote:
@indo , what is the voice to parliament ? Does it have powers to change laws ? Or is it an advisory body to the government of the day ? What is the question on the ballot paper ? Don’t be blinded by fear and bullshit indo , vote yes .

I think Indo may have a better understanding of the constitution than supreme court judges do....!

goofyfoot Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 7:04pm

indo-dreaming wrote:

I honestly wouldn't vote yes even if you bought me a return ticket to Indo.”
What about a one-way ticket to somewhere with no internet?
Antartica maybe?

Jokes Indo…
Kinda

AlfredWallace Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 7:20pm

goofyfoot][quote=indo-dreaming wrote:
I honestly wouldn't vote yes even if you bought me a return ticket to Indo.”

What about a one-way ticket to somewhere with no internet?
Antartica maybe?

Jokes Indo…
Kinda

Goofyfoot. Gold, very clever, pissed myself laughing.
Sorry Indo, I know it’s at your expense, but you gotta admit that’s funny. How are you by the way ? Have you decided yet who you are voting for next weekend ? AW

southernraw Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 7:31pm

gsco wrote:
I'll take a listen southernraw. btw I also read the longer cut-n-pastes you've done just above and a few pages ago, and it's what got me thinking about perceptions and intentions about self-determination.

And you're pretty perceptive. Standing in the carpark this morning (surf was great) I was thinking the same thing. I know I have a very anti-ALP agenda right now due to them ignoring basic economic solutions to inequality/cost of living/property affordability problems the nation faces, but I know there is more at stake with The Voice than my little tiff (even though the ALP should not be let off the hook with these failings).

basesix and harry have also said interesting things (although basesix is a complete enigma to me, and harry could be a little more polite).

I as much as anyone else on this planet want good outcomes for FNPs. There's real peoples' lives and welfare at stake.

Good on you mate and thanks for taking the time to reply. Alot of what u post is thought provoking which i enjoy. And i dont trust either party tio much at the moment bit ive tried to stay out of the party politics at play here and trust that this is bigger than that.
And dont worry, i question my own motives every day and repeatedly test whether my beliefs are flawed by continually reading, listening, learning, but time and time again my conviction for what is right and just is strengthened.
Glad the ocean served up the goods wberever you are at moment.

goofyfoot Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 7:33pm

All good here AW, had a fun surf this arvo so it was a good way to end the working week.
You?
I’ll be voting yes, politics isn’t something I think about a lot (or ever) but in this case I just think it’s the right thing to do.
Have a good weekend

Supafreak Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 7:41pm

https://x.com/watson_stevo/status/1709866281078562956?s=46&t=5RczxwAfzXe...

Supafreak Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 7:53pm

https://www.facebook.com/reel/830882521845159?fs=e&s=TIeQ9V&mibextid=79YPKQ

seeds Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 7:57pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
I honestly wouldn't vote yes even if you bought me a return ticket to Indo.

Imagine being this vehemently opposed to something that’s effects will not even be noticed by absolutely everyone if it gets through. Except maybe some FNP.
Stop getting into such a lather Indo.
Be more Micolino Locce not Milo Kerrigan.
I know you’ll flip and vote Yes. You don’t have to tell us though.

Jelly Flater Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 8:30pm

;)

https://m.

AlfredWallace Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 8:31pm

goofyfoot wrote:
All good here AW, had a fun surf this arvo so it was a good way to end the working week.
You?
I’ll be voting yes, politics isn’t something I think about a lot (or ever) but in this case I just think it’s the right thing to do.
Have a good weekend

Goofyfoot. Hi. Glad you got wet. I’m well,
I’ve being doing some carpentry work on my almost completed fully plywood kitchen, mostly made from recycled timber except for plywood sheets.

I just wish this referendum goes in the favour of those who deserve this the most, because I simply can’t believe how politicised the whole thing has become, no surprise, it was totally manifested by Dutton, with only sinister thoughts in mind.
Have a good weekend with your family. AW

Jelly Flater Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 8:37pm

‘ I just wish this referendum goes in the favour of those who deserve this the most…’

- agree AW, that’s what this is really about… and a sentiment some need to discover. Sometimes the loudest in the room don’t have anything of substance to say. All talk ;)

https://m.

truebluebasher Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 8:54pm

Saga of the Century : "Seen but not heard"
Matildas : "Almost as palpable as our Fever Pitch!

For the Affirmative
Beavis said he's sick of being typecast as Oz #1 Cranky Poll Dancer.
Whoopi still doesn't get the Linda role?
Ray Martin as some Fuckin' Dickhead Dreamtime Dinosaur
MC keeps Hammering away at Shaq to keep circling
Pink'n'purple [YES] Signs perform dual roles as the Pink'n'Purple [AEC] Signs

For The Negative
Voldemort gets spooked by his flip flopping Altar Ego
Michaelia Cash as the outspoken mouthpiece for her own Voice Box
Not even Cosby's Sweater can't warm Mundine's Cold Sacred Heart.
Public Enemy #1 Meghan Markle was deemed too evil for Lidia's Outlawed Outlaw Gang.
Serena Williams gets hoppin' mad in Jacinta's Big Boots
[NO] camp are divided to tear up another 100 Aboriginal Flags or desecrate 100 more Australian Flags

For the undecided AI roles...
Covid compliant masked hooded Muslims moonlight as anti vax masked hooded Neo Nazis
[ACA] Ally still don't care to know why she's paid to dumb down her audience to Vote [NO]

[AEC] Stuntmen.
We still don't know Party were de-registered for failing to register their bong licenses.
Still waiting for my Booklet Voters were Struck off their Roles for reading too much into the Voice!

14th Oct ~ { Seen but not Heard...The Blind Auditions }
https://www.facebook.com/beavisandbutthead/videos/voting-rules-beavis-an...

andy-mac Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 8:59pm

Somewhere someone lied ...

https://m.

&pp=ygURc29saWQgcm9jayBnb2FubmE%3D

Jelly Flater Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 9:19pm

https://m.

AlfredWallace Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 9:48pm

Jelly Flater wrote:
‘ I just wish this referendum goes in the favour of those who deserve this the most…’

- agree AW, that’s what this is really about… and a sentiment some need to discover. Sometimes the loudest in the room don’t have anything of substance to say. All talk ;)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CNAZ4gsGl_g

JellyFlater. Spot on mate. AW

burleigh Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 9:57pm

View this post on Instagram

udo Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 9:59pm

Christ...

?si=4US74LV9IO0FFAXB

seeds Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 10:12pm

Nah don’t think so

Reform Friday, 6 Oct 2023 at 11:40pm

Where is John Clarke right at this pivoting moment in time?

Taken too soon, for he had a way to get a message across that was so on point, offering the listener a coherent and just clarification of most situations. The undercurrent agendas schemed by the calculating and cunning architects/polies were identified and exposed, in a matter of moments, were put on the table for open viewing. Whether his verdict was fact or fiction, I reckon he would have got it right for us if he were still here.

But you know, that brilliance that John had, is available to us also, in our own special way, we’re just going to have to dig deep, the ingenuity resides in all of us, whether you are a Yes or a No voter, there is a way to solve this dilemma we are faced with.

The current huge divide of opinions is bizarre and getting worse by the day and I cannot believe the conspiracy theories that some people (on both sides but mainly the No side ha!) are actually taking on and believing! To the point of aggressively pushing it onto others to beware that NATO and WHO will take our sovereignty (as an example). Including reciting ridiculous untruths as real from that despicable and horrid right wing news channel.

I’m getting opposition from friends and colleagues and asking them WTF are you on about? Hey what? Nah can’t be!
But on the flip side it’s also true there are some unsavory people behind this Yes campaign that I have just been made aware of. Looked it up, its true not a good record has she, but this vote for the voice is not about her it is about the voice for all FNP.

As for Briggs and AB Original. These guys are just great artists and FNP coincidentally not. Radical in some of their vids, confronting yes, but they are artists, it is their expression, they have pain, they have licence, they want to express it and send that message out there that the FNP have been treated as they have by the directions and dictatorship of the current and consecutive Governments of the day, and in no uncertain ways, they are justified to express themselves in this way.

Agendas are at play for completely different reasons, we just have to work it out what is right and just. We have to find that perfect balanced formula that puts the whole thing into perspective, and quick, we are down now to 7 days away to vote. Put away the untruths, report on fact and fact only.

This is a situation that will benefit or it will detract the livelihoods for all persons occupying this land but it also relates to the Fauna and Flora that we rely on so much for our wellness and our own survival. Life is so diverse, it has its time of abundance and voids. John would have put it right, whichever way but usually always the just and correct way.

southernraw Saturday, 7 Oct 2023 at 12:01am

Great stuff @reform.
And here you go...

Supafreak Saturday, 7 Oct 2023 at 4:47am

. No mention of abolishing Australia Day or paying rent to FNP , don’t be fooled by lies & misinformation.

Supafreak Saturday, 7 Oct 2023 at 5:18am

burleigh wrote:
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyDdIkCv4hB/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

https://x.com/prguy17/status/1710047681475674609?s=46&t=5RczxwAfzXe7hKRZ...

Supafreak Saturday, 7 Oct 2023 at 5:20am

Supafreak wrote:
burleigh wrote:
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyDdIkCv4hB/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

https://x.com/prguy17/status/1710047681475674609?s=46&t=5RczxwAfzXe7hKRZ...

Hahahaha , classic burley bullshit

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