Interesting stuff

This is a good watch, shows some real footage of who Hama's took prisoner includes women and children and old people, and people begging for their life not to be killed, remember these people are everyday citizens.

Fark off and crawl back under ya rock flopti…
- and id, get some proper context and stop pretending you are some valiant authority / commentator … ‘trying to provide balance’ ;)
- remember, you are attempting to defend and glorify everyday occupiers.

https://m.

https://m.

@ Jelly Flater

The issue and history is extremely complex, but your a pretty twisted fucked up unit if you support a surprise attack with thousands of rockets into civilian territory and kid napping of civilians including women and children.

Hamas are seen by most of the world as a terrorist group for very good reason they have a long history of attacks on civilian's a group that even hides behind civilian's to use them as protection.

This group are basically the Arab version of modern day Nazi's if they could they would wipe out all Jews and other minority groups like gays.

welcome back Optimist, hope you're doing well mate.

Good post above on the Israel situation and a very valid perspective, thanks for writing it.

Btw earlier this year or maybe late last year I read the book you once recommended: The Book That Made Your World: How the Bible Created the Soul of Western Civilization.

To deny the central role of Christianity, Catholic or Orthodox, in the creation of our majestic Western civilisation and its way of life is just plain idiotic.

There's a very interesting recent 6-part series on the West which also spends some time doing justice to the foundational role of Christianity:

There are some very strong forces out there in the Western world trying to deny and rewrite our history, mostly emanating from Western Marxism and the new progressive left, and many (most) people in these forums are sucked squarely into it and no longer know anything about, and indeed are completely ignorant of, our past, our values and our heritage.

Here's some context explaining why Hamas have taken the prisoners.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/8/why-are-so-many-palestinian-pri...

@lowinfo

I never said I support a surprise attack. Nor did I express any support of hamas or their methodologies…

But you keep jumping to your assumptions and deluded conclusions. It’s all you offer here on SN ;)

And for anyone to imagine a ‘valid perspective’ as one aligned with biblical prophecy etc… well… keep entertaining your fantasies and armageddon inspired interpretations ;)

- ‘An eye for an eye will leave the whole world blind’.

https://m.

Jelly Flater wrote:

@lowinfo

I never said I support a surprise attack. Nor did I express any support of hamas or their methodologies…

But you keep jumping to your assumptions and deluded conclusions. It’s all you offer here on SN ;)

And for anyone to imagine a ‘valid perspective’ as one aligned with biblical prophecy etc… well… keep entertaining your fantasies and armageddon inspired interpretations ;)

- ‘An eye for an eye will leave the whole world blind’.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MknerYjob0w&pp=ygUbaXNyYWVsIGlzIGFuIGFwYXJ...

Dude i posted videos and comments related to the attack's and you come back criticising me with post clearly trying to justify Hamas actions.

As for what i offer on the forums, FFS dude pretty rch coming from someone that 99.9% of the time you just post irrelevant nonsense videos that nobody would ever bother clicking on.

There was no ‘clearly trying to justify hamas actions’.

- try and make up whatever bullshit you like, as usual.

And, posting nonsense, haha…
- you’re up to speed on that front ;)

Let’s go sky news!

gsco wrote:

welcome back Optimist, hope you're doing well mate.

Good post above on the Israel situation and a very valid perspective, thanks for writing it.

Btw earlier this year or maybe late last year I read the book you once recommended: The Book That Made Your World: How the Bible Created the Soul of Western Civilization.

To deny the central role of Christianity, Catholic or Orthodox, in the creation of our majestic Western civilisation and its way of life is just plain idiotic.

There's a very interesting recent 6-part series on the West which also spends some time doing justice to the foundational role of Christianity:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YinIR-YbwZw
Also around the same time I read The Book That Made Your World I also read Rodney Stark's How the West Won: The Neglected Story of the Triumph of Modernity, which also goes into detail about the role of Christianity.

There are some very strong forces out there in the Western world trying to deny and rewrite our history, mostly emanating from Western Marxism and the new progressive left, and many (most) people in these forums are sucked squarely into it and no longer know anything about, and indeed are completely ignorant of, our past, our values and our heritage.

Here's a heads up, the chances of Marxism in any form taking a foot hold in Australia is nil, nadda zilch, will never happen, never mind the USA or UK.
As for Christianity creating the great west, well yeah nah. Western civilisation happened in spite of Christianity and religion , not because of it.
Secular humanism pushing back against the Church created the free democratic model we are fortunate to live with.

AC Grayling writes about this in a very easy to read book.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/390751.What_is_Good_

As for Israel and Hamas, tragic on every measure.

“ This group are basically the Arab version of modern day Nazi's”
What a ridiculous thing to say.
Shame you’ve gone full retard first thing in the day.

Hahaha

https://m.

Another good easy read regarding the philosophical history of the West.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/31795.The_Story_of_Philosophy

Another good easy read regarding the philosophical history of the West.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/31795.The_Story_of_Philosophy

andy-mac wrote:

As for Christianity creating the great west, well yeah nah. Western civilisation happened in spite of Christianity and religion , not because of it.
Secular humanism pushing back against the Church created the free democratic model we are fortunate to live with.

AC Grayling writes about this in a very easy to read book.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/390751.What_is_Good_

As for Israel and Hamas, tragic on every measure.

the ideas that "Western civilisation happened in spite of Christianity and religion" and that science grew in opposition to Christianity and religion are standard fallacies peddled by those denying and trying to rewrite history and it shows either your ignorance to history or your Western Marxist stance.

To try to prove their point, those that push this false narrative play on tensions that occur between all social, cultural, scientific, religious, political, ideological, economic, philosophical, etc, trends and movements all through history. For instance, the same tensions occur within say philosophy itself, but it's not correct to say that a certain idea in philosophy then happened "in spite of" others.

I've read that book by Grayling as well as his History of Philosophy, which has a great section on The Eighteenth-Century Enlightenment that people would do very well to read and consider in the context of The Voice relating to freedom, independence, self-direction and autonomy, and personal responsibility.

Edit: I've also read Durant, as well as Russell and Kenny. You're welcome to debate with me on all things philosophy.

gsco wrote:

andy-mac wrote:

As for Christianity creating the great west, well yeah nah. Western civilisation happened in spite of Christianity and religion , not because of it.
Secular humanism pushing back against the Church created the free democratic model we are fortunate to live with.

AC Grayling writes about this in a very easy to read book.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/390751.What_is_Good_

As for Israel and Hamas, tragic on every measure.

the ideas that "Western civilisation happened in spite of Christianity and religion" and that science grew in opposition to Christianity and religion are standard fallacies peddled by those denying and trying to rewrite history and it shows either your ignorance to history or your Western Marxist stance.

To try to prove their point, those that push this false narrative play on tensions that occur between all social, cultural, scientific, religious, political, ideological, economic, philosophical, etc, trends and movements all through history. For instance, the same tensions occur within say philosophy itself, but it's not correct to say that a certain idea in philosophy then happened "in spite of" others.

I've read that book as well as his History of Philosophy, which has a great section on The Eighteenth-Century Enlightenment that people would do very well to read and consider in the context of The Voice.

Edit: I've also read Durant, as well as Russell and Kenny. You're welcome to debate with me on all things philosophy.

Have not read Kenny, but yep Russel.

No need or time for any debate, happy for you to have your opinion on things.
I think you are over stating the power of some imagined left wing conspiracy to over take West, but hey I could be wrong and eat my words.
I use to agree and enjoy reading some of your views on China, but think you are off the mark re wokeism etc.
Anyway got to work now.

all good, debate is debate.

But to say I'm off the mark with wokeism is not really saying that I am but is saying that the whole global conservative and libertarian (not as in US-style liberal) community is off the mark and currently blowing up about, reacting and standing up to, and fighting back against, nothing.

Really it's just the eternal battle between Marxism vs "everything else in its sights and that opposes it".

I’d say a lot of people currently pushing the woke/critical race theory/new age progressive left/social justice activism/identity politics etc agenda aren’t aware of the roots of their beliefs and ideology.

Of course being anti-religion particularly anti-Christianity is a central Marxist theme.

‘to say I'm off the mark with wokeism is not really saying that I am but is saying that the whole global conservative and libertarian (not as in US-style liberal) community is off the mark and currently blowing up about, reacting and standing up to, and fighting back against, nothing.’

- faaarkkk… you are so perceptive that you can accurately explain what you reckon other ppl are saying and your opinion of things automatically overrides what they actually said.

It’s amazing ! You are like an anti marxist crusading beacon of truth and logic, who bathes harmoniously in capitalist honour and pride… fuelled by pure deserved outrage and persistent paranoia that will surely crush all historical and prospective inequality driven evil and guide the future of western society and its potential for golden economic prosperity into a new world order of fanatical anti woke mind virus communist infiltration instigation warriors ;)

- good sheeple of the world unite
#socialistvanlifetheory ;)

https://m.

- interesting stuff ;)

https://m.

Actually JF if you really want to criticise me about this stuff it would be more accurate to say that I’m entirely unoriginal and have no novel thoughts of my own due to just regurgitating the output of various think tanks, academics, political parties, textbooks, etc, around the globe.

But I see it as a win to get under your skin. Your political bias in these forums is very clear, and on full display again this morning.

"I’d say a lot of people currently pushing the woke/critical race theory/new age progressive left/social justice activism/identity politics etc agenda aren’t aware of the roots of their beliefs and ideology."

If you fail to mention post-modernism, I'd say you aren't aware of the one of the crucial influences either.

damn, gsco..
8-miled JF!
(far-out, monday morning light chat about israel/palestine with indo, gsco, fliplid, jelly, Andy and andy to celebrate Optimist's return? should reach a calm and mutually respectful resolution by lunchtime ; )

Haha gsco (gargantuan socialist conspiracy operative)

You’re wrong, again ;)

I have no political affiliation or bias.
- no matter what you interpret.

A perspective doesn’t always need to be assumed that it comes from any political angle. You enjoy putting people and events into convenient boxes of your choosing…

All you have are theories.
- and ones to suit your own simulation ;)

There is no win.
- and no getting under my skin…

Once again, like flopti and id, full of conclusions and conceptual creations (you guys are the holy trinity of bullshit) - trying to convince others that their reality is somehow affected or tied to your imagined personal logic (or lack of).

- and now you’ve joined into the holy trinity of bullshit, you can be overly fascinated with political ideologies and religious imprints… and also fervently pretend your way is the only way.

- time to consider you ain’t no oracle ;);)
It’s just a version of events.
It’s not real ;)

- don’t forget to keep trying to feed the sheep ;);)

And this is interesting stuff… ;)
- must’ve been a commie marxist plot to derail the game that is apparently played in heaven (open to interpretation, that is).

https://m.

"Wokeism" is in many instances a well intentioned concept pushed way too far.

Here is a classic example: I saw in a Vid

3 female Uni student asked whether 13 year olds should be allowed to have tattoos.
- answers - "of course not - too young"
Same students asked whether 13 year olds could make a decision to commence puberty blockers and begin transitioning
- answer "yes they know what they want" one even recognised the contradiction in her stance, but still stuck to it.

Virtue is an addictive drug for some people that distorts balance and commonsense.

Who are the dealers? Some are just addicts themselves. Other see profit of some form.

aww JF we used to be such top mates...

AndyM, yes for sure, postmodernism too, although it has been well argued and documented that Marxism strongly contributed to postmodernism's development and has also hijacked it since postmodernism is in particular a rejection of Enlightenment ideas which form much of the basis of our free western way of life, the undermining and dismantling of which is the central goal of Marxism

;)

https://m.

AndyM wrote:

“ This group are basically the Arab version of modern day Nazi's”
What a ridiculous thing to say.
Shame you’ve gone full retard first thing in the day.

As per usual misquoting me, heres the full quote.

indo-dreaming wrote:

This group are basically the Arab version of modern day Nazi's if they could they would wipe out all Jews and other minority groups like gays.

BTW. everyone knows im not at all woke or politically correct, bur FFS dude most of us including me stopped using retard or spastic as an insult 20+ years ago

whatever 'side' you take...

just like sep 11, it was one hell of an operation... admire is the wrong word, as is respect, but geez that took some planning and implementing... against all odds...

just read 260 people got gunned down at that music festival, what a come down! ...heavy...

clearly was a large part of the operation, with impact and brutality high priorities

from my perspective, hamas have just blown a lot of sympathy and support they possibly had from sectors of the west... a real "you're either with us or against us" moment...

and, $6bil to iran just days ago, biden is a fucking fool!

and, trump... the abraham accords... a different tact... unravelled with gusto... hmmmm...

Jeepers whillikers Indo, you told me good and proper :)

This one's for you Jelly, just cos we are getting agricultural

Anyone listening to the whole link may need to pace themselves.

just watched the 'war' on indonesian news

amazing how perspective can determine coverage... without outright lies... they tell an interesting story...

an interesting study in neo- marxism, post modernism, and narrative control right there - without the neo-marxism and any conscious post modernism...

despite gsco's detractors, where he is 100% correct, is the insidious nature of what has 'captured' the western world...

and how most people - even participants - are laregly totally unaware...

New continuation of long going war in the ME.
What effect with this have on the price of oil?
Inflation versus interest rates in Oz.
Interesting times.

New continuation of long going war in the ME.
What effect with this have on the price of oil?
Inflation versus interest rates in Oz.
Interesting times.

Far out Indo that link at top of page is heavy. Etarip if you are out there, any informal opinion on how did the mossad not see this coming? It's 50 years and 1 day since the Yom Kippur war, on the same holiday time.

Edit: leading up to the Voice vote (better to incorporate everyone) I've mentioned being off looking at historical parallels of things like truth telling and denying populations their say/representation. What southern Rhodesia and eventually South Africa had to do was conscript every young man of age (white in their case) and ended up fighting wars propped up ideologically and materially by the usual suspects (hello: Cuba, China, Russia). What Rhodesia and SA did not have was the population in their favour. In the case of Israel, on current birth rates by 2050 the nation is supposed to be majority Palestinian - so any agreement or solution will see the Israelis as a minority. In this case the SA parallel is apt, with a mobilisation of their entire population being a requirement and no guarantee of success with hostile states on nearly all sides because of the religion aspect. It was a case where you could win every battle like the RLI did, but lose the war. (insert vids of Joe Slomo singing with the ANC leaders...)

On our Mackinder world map, we now can see war on the Eurasian continent in Ukraine, Russia steamrolling French colonies/clients through the centre of Africa, tensions building the the western Pacific,/SCS; and now the Middle East goes tinderbox.

Haha vj, patience is a virtue ;)
… and in the case of israel vs hamas
- maybe the word is aggro cultural

andy-mac wrote:

New continuation of long going war in the ME.
What effect with this have on the price of oil?
Inflation versus interest rates in Oz.
Interesting times.

the US is just plain dumb... and suicidal... if they dont un-do some of biden's policies....

$$$

indo-dreaming wrote:

This is a good watch, shows some real footage of who Hama's took prisoner includes women and children and old people, and people begging for their life not to be killed, remember these people are everyday citizens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5GUjb_3V5A

* again, that was a surprisingly good wrap up of it. At 10:15 you can see where Mel Brooks got inspiration for the helmets in 'Spaceballs'.

How accurate is this picture ? Anyone know ?

Jelly Flater wrote:

Haha vj, patience is a virtue ;)
… and in the case of israel vs hamas
- maybe the word is aggro cultural

"And for anyone to imagine a ‘valid perspective’ as one aligned with biblical prophecy etc… well… keep entertaining your fantasies and armageddon inspired interpretations ;)"

Just in the case of the quote above, it doesn't matter if you think their prophecy is nutty, if they believe it they will act on it. Both sides. So if you are aware that these 'stories of the future' exist, entertain the idea that people will be out there in their factions pushing towards them. It might be a temple, or the story of a struggle to be won and oppressors to be cast down.

Andy mac Oil up about 3.5% at last check

It’s accurate super.
Accurate like the UN’s ruling on illegal Jewish settlements…
Accurate like the description ‘displacement’ or the phrase ‘genocide’…

- the occupiers now wish to lay claim to having their ‘pearl harbour’ moment ;)
An absolutely inaccurate comparison or analogy…

But one that will be essential for US intervention.
Democracy. Freedom.
And war $$$

And vj… yep.
False ideas and beliefs are the perfect recipe for disaster
… on both sides.

Interesting that when the choice is made to follow fantasy under the guise of divinely orchestrated spirituality, the further probability of a damaged and deranged reality gains traction. Endless opportunities for conflict abound in an environment of oppression and inequality - especially amongst the persecuted. Surely this is a quality both sides have endured, one they unfortunately embrace and ultimately now use against one another… instead of using it as common ground on which to heal and come together.

Dangerous times.

Cheers VJ.
Guess now can only continue to increase.

Supafreak wrote:

How accurate is this picture ? Anyone know ?

Possibly accurate, but that is just a tiny snap shot of the history that goes back thousands of years.

As an example this is how things looked in the 9th century The Kingdom of Judah also belonged to the Jews, its a pretty complicated and complex history.

indo-dreaming wrote:

AndyM wrote:

“ This group are basically the Arab version of modern day Nazi's”
What a ridiculous thing to say.
Shame you’ve gone full retard first thing in the day.

As per usual misquoting me, heres the full quote.

indo-dreaming wrote:

This group are basically the Arab version of modern day Nazi's if they could they would wipe out all Jews and other minority groups like gays.

BTW. everyone knows im not at all woke or politically correct, bur FFS dude most of us including me stopped using retard or spastic as an insult 20+ years ago

Not woke, politically incorrect, butthurt at accurate use of modern cultural vernacular, a variation on “you never go full retard”. Too late, it would seem.

indo-dreaming wrote:

Supafreak wrote:

How accurate is this picture ? Anyone know ?

Possibly accurate, but that is just a tiny snap shot of the history that goes back thousands of years.

As an example this is how things looked in the 9th century The Kingdom of Judah also belonged to the Jews, its a pretty complicated and complex history.

Not going to get into whole Middle East mess as it seems it will never be fixed or become a peaceful part of the world. Nasty pricks on both side of the fence really inho, that hurt the vast majority of innocents on both sides.
Always thought that if Palestinians took a Ghandi style resistance they would be in a lot better position today.
Saying that though, why are the generally same people who continue on about the Jewish state's right to take other people's land, settlements etc arguing it goes back a few 1000 of years are the same group that are dismissive of our own indigenous people and their right to their land here that goes back tens of thousands of years?
Simplistic maybe but seems to be the case.

‘ why are the generally same people who continue on about the Jewish state's right to take other people's land, settlements etc arguing it goes back a few 1000 of years are the same group that are dismissive of our own indigenous people and their right to their land here that goes back tens of thousands of years?’

Exactly. Glaringly obvious…
-seems to be a symptom of going full retard ;)

Got no side in this one. It's the crossroads of the world and world trade. There will be different groups fighting over it for ever.

An interesting aside, it's said that the land was well forested about 2000 years ago. Strike up another desertification for those goats linked above and their hard hooves. Me-e-e-eh!

Also: Arab neighbours are reluctant to take on Palestinian refugees after what happened to Lebanon:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Civil_War

"The diversity of the Lebanese population played a notable role in the lead-up to and during the conflict: Sunni Muslims and Christians comprised the majority in the coastal cities; Shia Muslims were primarily based in the south and the Beqaa Valley in the east; and Druze and Christians populated the country's mountainous areas. The Lebanese government had been run under the significant influence of elites within the Maronite Christian community.[8][9] The link between politics and religion had been reinforced under the French Mandate from 1920 to 1943, and the country's parliamentary structure favoured a leading position for its Christian-majority population. However, the country had a large Muslim population to match, and many pan-Arabist and left-wing groups opposed the Christian-dominated pro-Western government. The influx of thousands of Palestinians in 1948 and 1967 contributed to the shift of Lebanon's demography in favour of the Muslim population."

Cannot stress enough that if you want your people (insert group here) to prevail over other groups, you have to outbreed the competitive groups. Quantity has a quality all of it's own. So have a couple more for (your group).

sypkan wrote:

whatever 'side' you take...

just like sep 11, it was one hell of an operation... admire is the wrong word, as is respect, but geez that took some planning and implementing... against all odds...

just read 260 people got gunned down at that music festival, what a come down! ...heavy...

clearly was a large part of the operation, with impact and brutality high priorities

from my perspective, hamas have just blown a lot of sympathy and support they possibly had from sectors of the west... a real "you're either with us or against us" moment...

and, $6bil to iran just days ago, biden is a fucking fool!

and, trump... the abraham accords... a different tact... unravelled with gusto... hmmmm...

Yep that's fucked.
An exgirlfriend of mine is from over there. In Tel Aviv.
She's a regular festival goer.
Was a heart in mouth few hours til i heard back from her last night.
She's ok. Scared though as you can imagine.
No winners in this situation.