Interesting stuff
“No doubt Hamas are a bunch of evil fucks”
I reckon that statement is ripe for discussion.
That ‘off course’ period was funny with all the comments.
AndyM wrote:“No doubt Hamas are a bunch of evil fucks”
I reckon that statement is ripe for discussion.
Indeed @AndyM.
As an uneducated observer, would it be a fair starting point to say Hamas do not represent the people of Palestine?
After reading that charter its all there in plain sight to see what their objectives are.
They don't represent Palestine SR, but they are political, and have supporters and are embedded in infrastructure, have schools, support communities financially, etc.
Israel 'wiping them out' would be to eradicate huge swathes of Palestine, unwinnable war, short of mass-genocide. And there's even more radical groups wanting to fill such a void.
re. above
hamas were democratically elected... apparently... no elections since however...
when they were elected, many countries labelled them a terrorist organisation, including australia...
I thought this was a bit much and misplaced at the time, they have now proven otherwise...
there was a guy on abc the other day, lived there six years, said most people he spoke with didn't support their ways, they were quite happy to not kick the hornets nest...
same with israel, seems most people don't support the settlements I referred to the other day. pretty sure netanmayu didn't at one time too (his first run) and was regarded as quite moderate. now he's in a coalition with right wing nutters... so who knows what he really thinks now...
anyway, a lot of water under the bridge since then...
it's clear to me there was some form of peace for while, and things improved for a little while, with the saudis finding some form of peace deal
which is apparently what iran don't like... with some form of ongoing battle for islamic dominance between iran and the saudis breaking out...
or perhaps everyone is just aligning themselves sensing an overstretched US... opportunism or otherwise...
a big thing I haven't heard anyone really mention, is the BRICS alliance, and them and the oil countries moving back to a gold standard currency... ie. away from the US dollar...
so many moving parts atm
china next to move sensing a too busy US?
the world is certainly realigning itself all over the place... jokowi a guest participant at the BRICS was an interesting one...
anyway, sure someone knows the ins and outs better than me... just find all these moves most interesting and timely... such is opportunism I guess...
where biden (well his puppet masters) seem particularly stupid, is losing the energy independence they had under trump, ...and even selling their emergency reserves to china for domestic political purposes... lowest their reserve has ever been apparently...
that's our reserve too btw!!
I know, I know... climate change... (and appeasing the nutty element..)
but geez climate change ain't looking a real priority to these other players...
seems to be the west just hobbling itself (again!) ...for some idealistic ideological bullshit... again...
no point being the pompous german tut-tuters, ...adhering to your moral high horse... while russia makes you their bitch!
existential crisis anyone?
a real one, ...not some ip meltdown!
is the west too 'exceptional' for such a rational thought process?
Thanks @basesix. Pretty much how i read it.
Yep, that's the sad thing, is the destruction at the cost of trying to get to them.
Geez it's a sad state of affairs. Been hard not to think about it. Been chatting to lots of family and friends today about it and everyone that i've chatted to feels exactly the same.
I think the worst part is that there is no end in sight, which is the recurring theme in this conflict.
SR, segment 1 of 7, and 2 of 7, were an interesting listen:
https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/radionational-drive
Thanks @sypkan. There's alot in there to unpack.
Much appreciated.
@basesix, awesome, cheers mate, Will do.
GuySmiley wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:GuySmiley wrote:Look you’re all wrong; off course @info is going to support Israel given its ultra far right government. That’s all that matters.
Ha ha yeah because Hamas are progressive and left wing
But yeah seeing you are very anti Christian id expect you are anti Jewish too, so id not be surprised at all if you hold anti semitic views.
I didnt really have much of a view on things until a few years back when i hung out with some Israeli surfers* in Indo and heard their views and stories and then went back and listened to some podcast on the history etc
I dont pretend to understand it all its super complex but yeah i know where my support is.
* Yes they have waves even had photos of pretty decent looking hollow waves.
Although I have Jewish and Arab friends the little I know is enough to know I know jackshit about the ME but carry on knowitall
Come on mate dont be a shy you love hating on Christians in that religion thread here's your perfect opportunity to start dissing on Jews and show us your anti semitic side without looking like a Nazi.
The Biden administration is wrong footed by reality .... again. Biden scolds teleprompter for bad advice.
from The Atlantic:
"Just eight days ago, National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan, speaking at The Atlantic Festival, rattled off a long list of positive developments in the Middle East, developments that were allowing the Biden administration to focus on other regions and other problems. A truce was holding in Yemen. Iranian attacks against U.S. forces had stopped. America’s presence in Iraq was “stable.” The good news crescendoed with this statement: “The Middle East region is quieter today than it has been in two decades.”
indo-dreaming wrote:GuySmiley wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:GuySmiley wrote:Look you’re all wrong; off course @info is going to support Israel given its ultra far right government. That’s all that matters.
Ha ha yeah because Hamas are progressive and left wing
But yeah seeing you are very anti Christian id expect you are anti Jewish too, so id not be surprised at all if you hold anti semitic views.
I didnt really have much of a view on things until a few years back when i hung out with some Israeli surfers* in Indo and heard their views and stories and then went back and listened to some podcast on the history etc
I dont pretend to understand it all its super complex but yeah i know where my support is.
* Yes they have waves even had photos of pretty decent looking hollow waves.
Although I have Jewish and Arab friends the little I know is enough to know I know jackshit about the ME but carry on knowitall
Come on mate dont be a shy you love hating on Christians in that religion thread here's your perfect opportunity to start dissing on Jews and show us your anti semitic side without looking like a Nazi.
If you were paying attention you miserable piece of slime you would know I have no problem with humble people practicing their religious, spiritual or cultural beliefs whatever they were. I did hold optimist to account but only for his extremism in repeating saying his god was the one and only god. So dumb arse get stuck into him for utter contempt for all other religions and gods …. Mmmmm, except maybe for those of the Jewish faith.
Now I note the optimist came out of retirement in the last couple of days to comment on the current ME troubles. l’ll let you in on a little story as told by Michael, a great friend and observant moderate Jewish man who has lived in Israel. He used to laugh at the stupidity and hypocrisy of fundamental christians and their support for Jews. Why? (( interesting opti referenced the last day in his recent posts )) Because on the last day when god appears to determine who is saved and who isn’t all the Jews will realise the error of their ways, repent before god becoming instantaneously god fearing christians and therefore saved.
As farcical as that sounds Michael assures me that this is what fundamental christians believe.
Now fuck off back to your village, idiot
Gotta watch the quiet ones @frog
bonza wrote:https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2023/10/09/celebrations-of-hamass-slaught...
Reading those statistics about a lack of support for a two state solution makes it all seem impossible. It’s fairly certain though that the number of victims in this next phase is going to far out weigh anything we’ve seen so far so a bit early for the morons to be ‘celebrating’ the deaths of Israelis
@sypkan, yes could be an opportune moment for a Taiwanese escapade? With $33trillion of debt you've got to wonder how much longer the US can keep making donations to other wars
i24NEWS Correspondent @Nicole_Zedek reports from Kibbutz Kfar Aza, a quarter-mile from the Gaza border, and recounts the atrocities that were committed in the small community which remains an active scene as soldiers clear booby traps and recover the bodies of dozens of victims pic.twitter.com/J4ZfWZQYHp
— i24NEWS English (@i24NEWS_EN) October 10, 2023
Sea Otter nibbling a surfboard would be a lot easier to deal with than a Great White nibble.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66182428
This is next level....
"Hamas kills 40 babies and children — beheading some of them — at Israeli kibbutz: report
Hamas terrorists slaughtered at least 40 babies and young children — decapitating some of them — at a kibbutz near the Gaza border, shaken Israeli officials and reporters at the scene said Tuesday.
“It’s hard to even explain exactly just the mass casualties that happened right here,” visibly distraught i24 News correspondent Nicole Zedek said during a broadcast from Kibbutz Kfar Aza near Sderot about a quarter-mile from the Gaza Strip.
“Babies with their heads cut off, that’s what [the soldiers] said. Gunned down. Families gunned down, completely gunned down in their beds,” Zedek said of the “sheer horror.
“This is nothing that anyone would have even imagined,” she said.
Top CNN reporter Nic Robertson, dressed in a military helmet and flak jacket, said, “There were so many murdered members of this Kibbutz."
https://nypost.com/2023/10/10/hamas-kills-40-babies-and-children-beheadi...
BTW. Sadly an Aussie lady has been found dead too.
I listened to a few podcast from left and right sources yesterday, some of the shit gong down like above is so heavy, Hamas has actually been leaking out lots of graphic footage in an attempt to scare the Israeli people.
Its super sad for the people, while they actually voted them in Hamas is really the enemy of the Palestine people its almost like suicide, Israel has no choice but to pretty much destroy the place, everything is cut off water and power and their fuel for own power source ran out last night and hospital's will only manage to keep their power supplies going a few days.
indo-dreaming wrote:This is next level....
"Hamas kills 40 babies and children — beheading some of them — at Israeli kibbutz: report
Hamas terrorists slaughtered at least 40 babies and young children — decapitating some of them — at a kibbutz near the Gaza border, shaken Israeli officials and reporters at the scene said Tuesday.
“It’s hard to even explain exactly just the mass casualties that happened right here,” visibly distraught i24 News correspondent Nicole Zedek said during a broadcast from Kibbutz Kfar Aza near Sderot about a quarter-mile from the Gaza Strip.
“Babies with their heads cut off, that’s what [the soldiers] said. Gunned down. Families gunned down, completely gunned down in their beds,” Zedek said of the “sheer horror.
“This is nothing that anyone would have even imagined,” she said.
Top CNN reporter Nic Robertson, dressed in a military helmet and flak jacket, said, “There were so many murdered members of this Kibbutz."
https://nypost.com/2023/10/10/hamas-kills-40-babies-and-children-beheadi...
BTW. Sadly an Aussie lady has been found dead too.
I listened to a few podcast from left and right sources yesterday, some of the shit gong down like above is so heavy, Hamas has actually been leaking out lots of graphic footage in an attempt to scare the Israeli people.
Its super sad for the people, while they actually voted them in Hamas is really the enemy of the Palestine people its almost like suicide, Israel has no choice but to pretty much destroy the place, everything is cut off water and power and their fuel for own power source ran out last night and hospital's will only manage to keep their power supplies going a few days.
@Indo Dreaming.
You love to provide us with your sensationalistic views.
How about we frame it this way.
‘Early colonists in Australia kill children, slaughter women and men’
.
In the New England area of NSW beheaded men to the tune of about 40 had their decapitated heads pushed onto the tops of fence posts so as to apparently warn other FNP to stay away.
I suggest you read the book ‘Blood on The Wattle’ you’ll find plenty of atrocities that will make the hair on the back of your neck stand up.
You love choosing ‘your kind of news ‘
I know you won’t read it. AW
Gee's sorry for actually talking about the biggest news in the world right now in the thread where it has been discussed in the last few days.
If you are not interested in world news or current news and prefer to talk about other events from a very different time in history, fine nobody is stopping you, although the indigenous thread is probably a better place for that.
Personally im gong to be happy to see the arse end of the voice and see that thread given a rest for a while and other topics discussed.
indo-dreaming wrote:This is next level....
"Hamas kills 40 babies and children — beheading some of them — at Israeli kibbutz: report
Even the Israeli army have said that this in unverified, so safe to say it's a bull-a-shit.
Hiccups wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:This is next level....
"Hamas kills 40 babies and children — beheading some of them — at Israeli kibbutz: report
Even the Israeli army have said that this in unverified, so safe to say it's a bull-a-shit.
First casualty of war is the truth.....
andy-mac wrote:Hiccups wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:This is next level....
"Hamas kills 40 babies and children — beheading some of them — at Israeli kibbutz: report
Even the Israeli army have said that this in unverified, so safe to say it's a bull-a-shit.
First casualty of war is the truth.....
Ain't that the, errr, truth.
andy-mac wrote:Hiccups wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:This is next level....
"Hamas kills 40 babies and children — beheading some of them — at Israeli kibbutz: report
Even the Israeli army have said that this in unverified, so safe to say it's a bull-a-shit.
First casualty of war is the truth.....
I havent read or heard that, do you have a link?
I did see footage of babies cribs with bullet holes and blood, of course that could be staged, but i dont think it would/could be a stretch that this is the truth, and beheading for these types of groups is a common theme for some reason.
Ive never ventured onto rumble but id expect there would be some very graphic footage on there.
indo-dreaming wrote:andy-mac wrote:Hiccups wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:This is next level....
"Hamas kills 40 babies and children — beheading some of them — at Israeli kibbutz: report
Even the Israeli army have said that this in unverified, so safe to say it's a bull-a-shit.
First casualty of war is the truth.....
I havent read or heard that, do you have a link?
I did see footage of babies cribs with bullet holes and blood, of course that could be staged, but i dont think it would/could be a stretch that this is the truth, and beheading for these types of groups is a common theme for some reason.
Ive never ventured onto rumble but id expect there would be some very graphic footage on there.
Sky news good enough for you, indo? Not usually my go-to site.
https://news.sky.com/story/its-important-to-separate-the-facts-from-spec...
Fair enough the beheading aspect seems unconfirmed but I dont think it would surprise anyone if it does end up being confirmed and babies and children citizens have still been slaughtered in their own homes.
BTW. Sadly one of the Israeli people kidnapped was also reported as being a holocaust survivor.
I read a story where some Hamas militants drove into a neighbourhood to set up a missile to fire into Israel and an elderly lady ran out from her house screaming at them to bugger off because Israels policy is to send a missile strike to hit the location where rockets where fired from thereby killing innocent people in the area. The militants drive away as soon as the rocket is fired and escape harm. It's fairly certain that Hamas don't have the support they once had.
@Fliplid
I heard that same story in a podcast yesterday too.
I had an interesting conversation with my taxi driver on the way home from hospital this morning . He has been living in oz for 34 years and originally a palestinian from Israel. My first words to him after good morning and where I was going were “ the worlds gone mad “ He had a lot to say and strongly believes that the world will enter the end of times come 2027 . He claimed to have studied what has been written in the Christian bible , koran and tanakh and said they more or less predict the same thing . He spoke of the return of Jesus before 2033 to rule the world and that Islam would be the victorious. He agreed that the Gaza Strip is about to be flattened and he calmly excepted this because he believes it is all written . He also predicted the natural disasters that are occurring around the world will double every year from now on . At the end of the ride I just said, well I better get on with enjoying life then , he smiled and said “ yes good luck to all because we are not in charge.
Supafreak wrote:I had an interesting conversation with my taxi driver on the way home from hospital this morning . He has been living in oz for 34 years and originally a palestinian from Israel. My first words to him after good morning and where I was going were “ the worlds gone mad “ He had a lot to say and strongly believes that the world will enter the end of times come 2027 . He claimed to have studied what has been written in the Christian bible , koran and tanakh and said they more or less predict the same thing . He spoke of the return of Jesus before 2033 to rule the world and that Islam would be the victorious. He agreed that the Gaza Strip is about to be flattened and he calmly excepted this because he believes it is all written . He also predicted the natural disasters that are occurring around the world will double every year from now on . At the end of the ride I just said, well I better get on with enjoying life then , he smiled and said “ yes good luck to all because we are not in charge.
Is he selling whatever he's on supa?!
Hope you're feeling better by the way
Is he selling whatever he's on supa?!
Hope you're feeling better by the way ……… thanks gf , hahaha yeah it was an interesting but out there conversation . I just hope the warnings from media of terrorists groups uprising all around the world don’t happen . I thought it was dumb idea to light up the opera house as it just causes conflicts .
Id expect most know Christian believe all that final days/end times/rapture stuff too, and i think Jews do too just all three have different variations.
Obviously the conflict isn't exactly religious based as such but there is still a big religious element, so its kind of scary when both sides think its already all been decided and they are just fulfilling what is written.
Hamas have definitely committed atrocities but don't forget that Israel has a lengthy history of killing unarmed protestors.
The current propaganda seems very keen to forget that this is a two-way street.
The United Nations Independent Commission of Inquiry on the protests in the Occupied Palestinian Territory found that Israel had killed and injured "journalists, medics, and persons who pose no imminent threat of death or serious injury to those around them. Particularly alarming is the targeting of children and persons with disabilities.
Many young persons’ lives have been altered forever. 122 people have had a limb amputated since 30 March last year. Twenty of these amputees are children.”
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2019/02/no-justification-israel-...
BTW. If this blows up even more which many say it will, i wonder what the experts view is on increase likely hood of bombings in Bali/Indo.
I can see the risk increasing, Indonesian muslims are very passionate in supporting Palestine, and the perception is is the west is seen as supporting Israel.
Personally id be a little mindful in Bali next year and avoid staying at popular hotels or going to more popular restaurant's or night clubs etc.
“ If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”
- Malcom X
https://m.
Chomsky, dissident and living treasure who, of course, is marginalised and attacked by the mainstream.
Island Bay wrote:Please don't tell me there are any Hamas apologists here.
Fucken hell!
Mate im glad you picked up on this vibe.
100% I understand you need to make a clear distinction between Palestine people and Hamas and understand the people on both sides are victims and caught up in it all.
But yes i swear some of these people here are in a strange way almost trying to justify the action's of Hamas truely bizarre.
The other day i thought maybe it was just me, so i went to the effort to listen to a range of views and even focussed on left wing media, the vibe im getting here is not one ive seen anywhere else.
Fucken Hell sums it up perfectly.
Anyway i better do some work.
The parallels between the Gaza strip and The Warsaw Ghetto have to be highlighted . The world stood by while the Nazis persecuted rounded up and murdered European Jews, kept them locked up in "Ghettos" (not the Compton kind) until they killed them off or shipped them off to the camps .
The world stands by (or supports to the hilt -USA) as Israel uses the exact same techniques on Gaza and the Palestinians.
IDF learnt a lot about "security and defense" from Nazi Germany and Benjamin Yahoos words are pretty close "wipe off the face of the earth".
The pot calling the kettle black and very possibly the start of the biggest shitfight of our lifetimes...
indo-dreaming wrote:BTW. If this blows up even more which many say it will, i wonder what the experts view is on increase likely hood of bombings in Bali/Indo.
I can see the risk increasing, Indonesian muslims are very passionate in supporting Palestine, and the perception is is the west is seen as supporting Israel.
Personally id be a little mindful in Bali next year and avoid staying at popular hotels or going to more popular restaurant's or night clubs etc.
Yes indo it’s worth considering . Bali has very very good intel about who and what persons are about . They don’t want a repeat of the sari club . Terrorists have been caught coming in from the east and island hoping there way to Bali. The police and intelligence community are actually pretty smart at identifying suspects . Before when I was living there , a lot of things happened that don’t make western news like blokes getting shot dead in their rooms no questions asked as they were known terrorists. This was happening in areas like seminyak and boats carrying large amounts of diesel and fertiliser we’re getting stopped before arriving in Bali. Eyes are everywhere and unfamiliar faces are treated with suspicion . 2024 is shaping up to be a big year.
Supafreak wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:BTW. If this blows up even more which many say it will, i wonder what the experts view is on increase likely hood of bombings in Bali/Indo.
I can see the risk increasing, Indonesian muslims are very passionate in supporting Palestine, and the perception is is the west is seen as supporting Israel.
Personally id be a little mindful in Bali next year and avoid staying at popular hotels or going to more popular restaurant's or night clubs etc.
Yes indo it’s worth considering . Bali has very very good intel about who and what persons are about . They don’t want a repeat of the sari club . Terrorists have been caught coming in from the east and island hoping there way to Bali. The police and intelligence community are actually pretty smart at identifying suspects . Before when I was living there , a lot of things happened that don’t make western news like blokes getting shot dead in their rooms no questions asked as they were known terrorists. This was happening in areas like seminyak and boats carrying large amounts of diesel and fertiliser we’re getting stopped before arriving in Bali. Eyes are everywhere and unfamiliar faces are treated with suspicion . 2024 is shaping up to be a big year.
These guys don't mess about Supa.
…the vibe of …hypocrisy
https://m.
indo-dreaming wrote:BTW. If this blows up even more which many say it will, i wonder what the experts view is on increase likely hood of bombings in Bali
21 years ago today.
stunet wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:BTW. If this blows up even more which many say it will, i wonder what the experts view is on increase likely hood of bombings in Bali
21 years ago today.
Yep, was there.
Lest we forget.
“Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding”.
- Albert Einstein
https://m.
I.B and I.D
I don't see trying to look at the bigger picture as being an "apologist".
Hence trying to achieve peace through understanding.
indo-dreaming wrote:andy-mac wrote:Hiccups wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:This is next level....
"Hamas kills 40 babies and children — beheading some of them — at Israeli kibbutz: report
Even the Israeli army have said that this in unverified, so safe to say it's a bull-a-shit.
First casualty of war is the truth.....
I havent read or heard that, do you have a link?
I did see footage of babies cribs with bullet holes and blood, of course that could be staged, but i dont think it would/could be a stretch that this is the truth, and beheading for these types of groups is a common theme for some reason.
Ive never ventured onto rumble but id expect there would be some very graphic footage on there.
They’ve manufactured your consent easily eh’? The propagandist media love simpletons like your self. You’ve even thrown in a bit of baseless stereotyping to boot.
Go Indo go!
My friend Michael’s immediate family fled Poland to Britain a year before WW2 having correctly sensed the danger of the Nazis. He lost most of his extended family to the death camps. He ended up living in Israel for sometime before and after the 67 war but eventually moved to Australia because he disagreed with the way the Arabs were treated. He was a moderate and he fiercely defended the right of Israel to exist but saw the land grab as wrong. So it is very complicated.
indo-dreaming wrote:Island Bay wrote:Please don't tell me there are any Hamas apologists here.
Fucken hell!
Mate im glad you picked up on this vibe.
100% I understand you need to make a clear distinction between Palestine people and Hamas and understand the people on both sides are victims and caught up in it all.
But yes i swear some of these people here are in a strange way almost trying to justify the action's of Hamas truely bizarre.
The other day i thought maybe it was just me, so i went to the effort to listen to a range of views and even focussed on left wing media, the vibe im getting here is not one ive seen anywhere else.
Unless I've missed a post I'd say both of you are mistaken. Trying to understand why someone/something acts the way it does isn't being an apologist. It's being a rational, considered adult.
I understand the political situation of Germany in the 1920s and how it gave rise to the Third Reich. A broken and demoralised country was fresh meat for violent nationalists to restore German glory.
But I don't support Hitler.
Similarly, trying to understand why Palestinians/Hamas act the way they do isn't supporting them. You may appreciate that having your land taken, houses razed, movement blocked etc etc will lead to violent responses. I mean, fuck, people lost their shit when COVID cops set lockdowns. Imagine a never ending episode of that..?
A mature adult can empathise with both sides, can they not?
If you can't, then there's a front page of a Murdoch rag awaiting your base reaction.
Well said Stu.
stunet wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:Island Bay wrote:Please don't tell me there are any Hamas apologists here.
Fucken hell!
Mate im glad you picked up on this vibe.
100% I understand you need to make a clear distinction between Palestine people and Hamas and understand the people on both sides are victims and caught up in it all.
But yes i swear some of these people here are in a strange way almost trying to justify the action's of Hamas truely bizarre.
The other day i thought maybe it was just me, so i went to the effort to listen to a range of views and even focussed on left wing media, the vibe im getting here is not one ive seen anywhere else.
Unless I've missed a post I'd say both of you are mistaken. Trying to understand why someone/something acts the way it does isn't being an apologist. It's being a rational, considered adult.
I understand the political situation of Germany in the 1920s and how it gave rise to the Third Reich. A broken and demoralised country was fresh meat for violent nationalists to restore German glory.
But I don't support Hitler.
Similarly, trying to understand why Palestinians/Hamas act the way they do isn't supporting them. You may appreciate that having your land taken, houses razed, movement blocked etc etc will lead to violent responses. I mean, fuck, people lost their shit when COVID cops set lockdowns. Imagine a never ending episode of that..?
A mature adult can empathise with both sides, can they not?
If you can't, then there's a front page of a Murdoch rag awaiting your base reaction.
+1
In this case, I think this conflict is nearly futile to try to understand.
It is multilayered and multidimensional, goes back 1500 years, is a mix of religious/political/social/economic/ethnic etc grievances and differences, has been fought in completely different historical periods of humanity by completely different individual peoples with completely different technologies and over different particular disputes and on different pieces of dirt.
It involves many more players/nations/peoples/religions/lands etc than just the current two.
It’s certainly much more complicated than the recent period of Israel and Palestine trying to coexist with each other on a tiny piece of barren dirt that has been contested for all of history.
In this conflict all truth and reason has been buried and lost.
Neither side is right or wrong. Both sides are right and wrong.
Maktub.
Have it cunts