Interesting stuff
etarip wrote:Gsco - thanks for the points on data. It seems that the info is carefully controlled. Zeihan’s interpretation is that this is being bad news. Why do you think China wants to control this information so tightly?
China has always tried to manage its information and data flow out into the world. After all they are the masters of communist propaganda. A lot of what we see about China is a carefully managed and fabricated “marketing and public relations campaign”, always has been, always will be. So the current situation is not necessarily specific to any bad news right now, but of course there’s currently some economic and other challenges that they’re trying to manage and keep a poker face on.
I also firmly believe that the west is in a wartime footing and stance with China, and is already at war with China on all fronts except direct military contact (ignoring the Ukraine situation, where China is propping up the Russian economy). So we’re just in a standard information warfare situation and China is playing as hard as anyone. China is trying to sell the idea that it’s in economic decline and no longer a long term economic or military threat to the west, and instead is focused on high quality development, but I’d be very cautious about buying into that sales pitch.
etarip wrote:what do think of John Garnaut’s assessments / perspectives of China? I’ve worked with his team a little bit on a couple of projects. His credentials are pretty solid. He and his team have an extensive network of correspondents in China and the wider diaspora.
I think he’s fighting the good fight and should keep it up. I think his views are largely right, but with China’s foreign interference there is a large kind of “innocent” economic/trade element to it of just the CPC supporting the interests of Chinese business, particularly since there is very little separation between big business and the CPC in China.
However, and call me a nut job if you want, I believe the CPC is also behind a renewed push for socialism in western civilisation, and in this it’s winning the battle for hearts and minds. I also believe Chinese foreign interference is behind a significant amount of the increasing division and polarisation, particularly political and ideological, in the west. I believe Chinese foreign interference has had a hand in why Australia is a sea of political red.
In the end, China has only one goal: restoring its perceived place as the Middle Kingdom with all other countries as tributary states, which it believed it held on this planet for the past say 3,000 years, until the mid 1800s and the triumph of the west.
The west needs to take the China threat very seriously and do everything it can to stay ahead of China economically, technologically and militarily.
(Btw yes my views on China have also changed a bit over the course of this yr and that contributed to my decision to not stay there.)
Yeah VJ. Been watching the ‘race for Africa’ unfolding of late. Need to dive a little deeper.
There’s very few easy wins there tho.
Holocaust executions from an eyewitness. Unfathomable, the bit about the Dad holding his young sons hand and the kid trying not to cry... fuck me
"Eyewitness Account of Einsatz Executions
On October 5, 1942, by accident, Hermann Graebe, a German engineer and manager of a German construction firm in the Ukraine, and his foreman, came upon an Einsatz execution squad killing Jews from the small town of Dubno in the Ukraine. He gave the following eyewitness account:
"My foreman and I went directly to the pits. Nobody bothered us. Now I heard rifle shots in quick succession from behind one of the earth mounds. The people who had got off the trucks - men, women and children of all ages - had to undress upon the order of an SS man who carried a riding or dog whip. They had to put down their clothes in fixed places, sorted according to shoes, top clothing and undergarments. I saw heaps of shoes of about 800 to 1000 pairs, great piles of under-linen and clothing. Without screaming or weeping these people undressed, stood around in family groups, kissed each other, said farewells, and waited for a sign from another SS man, who stood near the pit, also with a whip in his hand. During the fifteen minutes I stood near, I heard no complaint or plea for mercy. I watched a family of about eight persons, a man and a woman both of about fifty, with their children of about twenty to twenty-four, and two grown-up daughters about twenty-eight or twenty-nine. An old woman with snow white hair was holding a one year old child in her arms and singing to it and tickling it. The child was cooing with delight. The parents were looking on with tears in their eyes. The father was holding the hand of a boy about ten years old and speaking to him softly; the boy was fighting his tears. The father pointed to the sky, stroked his head and seemed to explain something to him. At that moment the SS man at the pit started shouting something to his comrade. The latter counted off about twenty persons and instructed them to go behind the earth mound. Among them was the family I have just mentioned. I well remember a girl, slim with black hair, who, as she passed me, pointed to herself and said, "twenty-three years old." I walked around the mound and found myself confronted by a tremendous grave. People were closely wedged together and lying on top of each other so that only their heads were visible. Nearly all had blood running over their shoulders from their heads. Some of the people shot were still moving. Some were lifting their arms and turning their heads to show that they were still alive. The pit was nearly two-thirds full. I estimated that it already contained about a thousand people. I looked for the man who did the shooting. He was an SS man, who sat at the edge of the narrow end of the pit, his feet dangling into the pit. He had a tommy-gun on his knees and was smoking a cigarette. The people, completely naked, went down some steps which were cut in the clay wall of the pit and clambered over the heads of the people lying there to the place to which the SS man directed them. They lay down in front of the dead or wounded people; some caressed those who were still alive and spoke to them in a low voice. Then I heard a series of shots. I looked into the pit and saw that the bodies were twitching or the heads lying already motionless on top of the bodies that lay beneath them. Blood was running from their necks. The next batch was approaching already. They went down into the pit, lined themselves up against the previous victims and were shot."
Thanks gsco. Appreciate the insights.
I’ve been lucky enough to work pretty closely with some China ‘experts’, most recently around national resilience and protection for an NGO working in the South Pacific.
China plays harder than most - and right across the spectrum using all the tools of influence. Their penetration of Australia’s political system was extensive. Legislative changes and foreign interference laws have limited that of late. I don’t think the CCP cares what flavour of liberal democracy we have though - they just want influence regardless of who is in power.
How much of the current approach would you ascribe to Xi’s personal influence? Is the cult of Xi deeply entrenched in China? Or is there a sense of scepticism among ordinary Chinese about the trajectory?
goofyfoot, this Netflix series is about those death squads
https://www.netflix.com/au/title/80134093
I watched part of the first episode the other day. They say that of the 6 million jews killed, around 2 million where by these mobile squads.
The commanders actually gave the soldiers an option to back out of the killing however due to peer pressure or whatever most didn’t and within a short period of time they became accustomed to the brutality. Many of the commanders were well educated sophisticated men.
It’s horrific to think just how thin the veneer of decency is
Thanks fliplid, I still struggle to comprehend this is actually true. And not that long ago.
I’ll check out that series.
gsco,
World history can be understood in terms of producers and plunderers. The plunderers prey on the producers.
Viking raiders are the obvious historical example of a plunderer mode of existence. But in modern terms plunderers can be Wall St, capitalist monopolies, some banks etc.
What is interesting is:
Instinctively the left often see private enterprise and "the right" as plunderers when mostly they are producers. This creates a devaluation and even demonising of the producer that in simple terms "feeds and clothes" us all. In the more clear cut ancient economy this would be like demonising the farmer or fisherman.
The left also see themselves as "good" and "kind" with their focus on redistribution of wealth and social justice.
What escapes them is that wealth redistribution on steroids becomes a plundering mode of existence every bit as predatory as the stereotypical "nasty" capitalist.
So in the left / right discussion it can be helpful to differentiate between the milder forms of left leaning idealogies and predatory socialism or plundering socialism.
Plundering socialism is where the redistribution is on steroids and drains the producers of wealth to everyones' loss. But plundering socialism can also stifle producers with regulation and its tendency towards control and compliance. The animal spirits of private enterprise slowly die.
Plundering socialism has the advantage of warm fuzzy language that hides its predatory nature. It is also more effective at controlling societies and more common than the much feared by the left, but rare in practice, right wing dictatorships. How many BBC dramas have a scary right wing leader as the villan? Never a scary left wing plundering leader!
Socialist leaning methods and language has been adopted in capitalism's heartland for this reason by some parties and their behind the scenes string pullers (who may actually be monopolist oriented capitalists - such as the US MIC) as means of control that has a palatable "kind" front
The CCP are plunderers. Most would agree on that. But the European Union concept is as well just with better PR. The Democrats in the US are heading that way. Religions and cults can be hidden plain sight plunderers.
Plundering socialism can weaken societies like an overly aggressive parasite. Ironically, it can arise from good intentions pushed too far as many on the left virtue signal. But it can be imposed by external forces or fostered by them to weaken other nations (e.g. the Russian revolution or right now in many western countries by China and other very well hidden players).
Australia is heading along the path towards plundering socialism.
Maybe the above concepts and terms can cut through in some of your debates.
Left is not always kind! The right is often the source of the wealth everyone needs and so is kind in its own way.
I like that.
Yep, interesting take frog…
All produced, and plundered.
- manufactured monstrosities ;)
https://m.
gsco wrote:You're totally right though JF in that it’s also not possible for someone sitting in say the US, reading English language commentary on China, analysing the data coming out of China, etc, to get an accurate picture of the place. Would be better off throwing a dart at a dartboard or asking that octopus that used to predict the World Cup outcome (actually no I think it died).
One really has to step off the plane and put one’s boots on the ground, breath in that pollution (it always goes down well), read the Chinese language economic and financial etc commentary, and speak to actual Chinese people.
Classic Narcissism.
The only thing consistent with gsco’s arguments with himself, is that only gsco is qualified to put forward that argument.
I’m enjoying gsco tear down gsco right now over the global CCP nefarious interference and thus the anti socialist AUKUS response. Poetry.
How could you possibly know, unless your gsco?
Mate of mine must be the font of all knowledge then. Doctorate. Was an academic for a while, analyst. Has travelled extensively. Polyglot. Speaks Mandarin, Hindi, Urdu fluently, bit of Pashtu, bit of Farsi*, passable Japanese**. Messes around with new languages for shits and giggles. Working on his Turkic branches last time we spoke.
Guess I should only listen to him…
* ‘bit of’ to him means he can hold a conversation but might miss something here or there as he’s referring back through the closest languages he know well as a point of reference and translating in real time.
** passable means self-taught but probably better than most formally trained folks
Wonder how he goes in southern china with cantonese…
- maybe just speaka ingrish ;)
Dunno mate, I’ll ask him? Wouldn’t surprise me if he’s turned his mind to it at some point.
(Great gotcha moment there buddy)
goofyfoot wrote:Thanks fliplid, I still struggle to comprehend this is actually true. And not that long ago.
I’ll check out that series.
Not too sure if you'll be thanking me after watching it
@frog
“Maybe the above concepts and terms can cut through in some of your debates.
Left is not always kind! The right is often the source of the wealth everyone needs and so is kind in its own way.”
So Alan Joyce sacking his baggage handlers so they had to take a pay cut is the paradigm of capitalist benevolence?
Apologies etarip, I fell asleep.
Just quickly first:
frog, I like the idea of plundering socialism. Can apply the same theme to religions. But my view is every implementation or rollout of socialism on planet earth has ended up as not just plundering but also genocidal socialism. That's what Marx and Engels' theory of historical determinism should have actually stated.
bonza, it's almost like you're criticising me for learning and evolving my views over time. Also, I'm a nobody now living in a van and know nothing about China. What you quoted simply comes from my experience of following the western media circus and think tank output on China, but then stepping off the plane and seeing things with my own eyes, and realising that they've basically got lots of it wrong. Plus I know some people in China (again, not referring to me) who've lived and worked in say the finance industry and academia there for decades, are fluent in Mandarin (and Cantonese), etc; they have a more accurate and less biased understanding of China than any think tank commentator sitting in Aus.
etarip wrote:How much of the current approach would you ascribe to Xi’s personal influence? Is the cult of Xi deeply entrenched in China? Or is there a sense of scepticism among ordinary Chinese about the trajectory?
I believe the current approach is nearly completely due to the personality cult of "Xi Jinping's thought on socialism with Chinese characteristics for a new era".
No I don't believe the cult is completely entrenched in China.
I think many in the CPC go along with Xi's cult and socialist trajectory due to having no choice, and are biding their time.
Most everyday Chinese people I spoke to recently over there expressed not necessarily skepticism but more like outright fear of Xi's socialist trajectory. I was a bit taken aback that Chinese people were willing to say it to me, almost like they were trying to communicate something to the outside world. And they expressed enthusiasm for the moment "Xi's time" comes to an end and who his successor will be, pointing to various people in the CPC who they hoped it would be.
But on the other hand there are many who subscribe to and believe in the cult. The Chinese people are heavily indoctrinated from a young age and all through school with socialism and with socialist themes of struggle and exploitation and of anti-capitalism and anti-west (and even at uni they often need to take compulsory subjects on Xi's thought and socialism even when studying completely different areas like say maths). These are much like the themes we routinely see in the left/socialist western media (permission to have another stab at the ABC...). It's hard break free from 20+ years of communist indoctrination and thought control.
Thanks gcso. Appreciate the detailed response. The idea of perpetual struggle appears to have been hijacked and weaponised by Xi. I’m not sure that there’s a lot of space for potential successors to rise tho. From what I understand much of the anti-corruption purge has been focused on rivals as much as actual corruption.
Yep.
Xi has successfully identified in many Chinese people's minds the Chinese struggle against the west and restoration of the Middle Kingdom with the communist struggle against capitalism.
He is purging those who don't subscribe to his cult.
He believes he is fulfilling the historical destiny of not just the Chinese nation but also of Communism.
And he is using all means available across the globe (such as foreign interference) in order to realise these destinies which he has merged into one single destiny.
Fliplid wrote:@frog
“Maybe the above concepts and terms can cut through in some of your debates.
Left is not always kind! The right is often the source of the wealth everyone needs and so is kind in its own way.”
So Alan Joyce sacking his baggage handlers so they had to take a pay cut is the paradigm of capitalist benevolence?
Never suggested anything remotely like that.
Unrestrained capitalism and overpaid CEOs can go feral and need controls and consequences for their excesses.
The huge multinationals have become way too powerful.
Interestingly, these days some have taken to hiding under the cloak of left leaning rhetoric and support for left leaning parties as these allow them to be wolves in sheeps clothing. Think big IT. Big pharma. And crazy of crazy the US military industrial complex has aligned itself with the Democrats and somehow has them as born again war enthusiasts!!!!
It is a complex world. The framework i described just helps a bit to understand it and to be sceptical of some common assumptions about goodies and baddies.
Bad behaviour is just that irrespective of its alliance.
gsco wrote:Yep.
Xi has successfully identified in many Chinese people's minds the Chinese struggle against the west and restoration of the Middle Kingdom with the communist struggle against capitalism.
He is purging those who don't subscribe to his cult.
He believes he is fulfilling the historical destiny of not just the Chinese nation but also of Communism.
And he is using all means available across the globe (such as foreign interference) in order to realise these destinies which he has merged into one single destiny.
And the CCP have realised going too far down the western model would have been hugely risky for stability. The GFC showed them how it can all blow up and become close to chaos.
Nationalism can give the population a new focus as the majority start to recognise their standard of living is in decline and hopes for the future fade with their property investment value in a deflating real estate bubble.
@frog It just seems that as soon as we get a left leaning party in power many start claiming that the next step is communism. As far as I can see Labor has walked a fairly even line and are well aware of the need for a healthy business sector but equally also for the need to get a bit of balance in favor of workers and others. There's be no way socialism, let alone communism as described by our esteemed fellow contributor to these forums will get a hold in Australia, Clive Palmer wouldn't allow it
frog wrote:World history can be understood in terms of producers and plunderers. The plunderers prey on the producers.
Curious that you emphasise creeping socialism here in Australia when the greatest social issue we have is a widening wealth gap. Anyone truly concerned about Australia's future should be focussing their concerns on that in all its flavours.
Big Tech moguls have exceeded govts in terms of power and influence, doing just as Adam Smith expected, acting in self-interest, which doesn't always align with public interest. And they're only the most visible examples; this game of charades goes on behind closed doors and away from public sight. At least govts are transparent and accountable.
Anything else is a distraction, such as all this nonsense about the coming Communism. FFS take a look around, you've got papier mache for brains if you think we're on the cusp of some socialised revolution. Since 1945, we've never been further away from it.
If I can take a guess, most people here grew up in a country much closer to 'socialism' with a broad safety net, restraints on unfettered capitalism, and a sense of social cohesion. I'd also wager those same people would say those were better days. Yet now those same people instill fear through a reds under the bed campaign, playing Shoeshine Boys for the people who'd really love that message spread as it allows them to carry on as per usual.
Commie Kevlar
- direct from donghua uni, middle kingdom motherland ;)
https://www.science.org/content/article/worms-spider-genes-spin-silk-tou...
gsco wrote:China has always tried to manage its information and data flow out into the world. After all they are the masters of communist propaganda. A lot of what we see about China is a carefully managed and fabricated “marketing and public relations campaign”, always has been, always will be. So the current situation is not necessarily specific to any bad news right now, but of course there’s currently some economic and other challenges that they’re trying to manage and keep a poker face on.
I also firmly believe that the west is in a wartime footing and stance with China, and is already at war with China on all fronts except direct military contact (ignoring the Ukraine situation, where China is propping up the Russian economy). So we’re just in a standard information warfare situation and China is playing as hard as anyone. China is trying to sell the idea that it’s in economic decline and no longer a long term economic or military threat to the west, and instead is focused on high quality development, but I’d be very cautious about buying into that sales pitch.
etarip wrote:what do think of John Garnaut’s assessments / perspectives of China? I’ve worked with his team a little bit on a couple of projects. His credentials are pretty solid. He and his team have an extensive network of correspondents in China and the wider diaspora.
I think he’s fighting the good fight and should keep it up. I think his views are largely right, but with China’s foreign interference there is a large kind of “innocent” economic/trade element to it of just the CPC supporting the interests of Chinese business, particularly since there is very little separation between big business and the CPC in China.
However, and call me a nut job if you want, I believe the CPC is also behind a renewed push for socialism in western civilisation, and in this it’s winning the battle for hearts and minds. I also believe Chinese foreign interference is behind a significant amount of the increasing division and polarisation, particularly political and ideological, in the west. I believe Chinese foreign interference has had a hand in why Australia is a sea of political red.
In the end, China has only one goal: restoring its perceived place as the Middle Kingdom with all other countries as tributary states, which it believed it held on this planet for the past say 3,000 years, until the mid 1800s and the triumph of the west.
The west needs to take the China threat very seriously and do everything it can to stay ahead of China economically, technologically and militarily.
(Btw yes my views on China have also changed a bit over the course of this yr and that contributed to my decision to not stay there.)
Tend to agree with much of this gsco. Won't add too much except it's been quite the realisation that the communist powers of the cold war are actually alive and well, adaptable, on the front foot when it comes to taking land in Eurasia, on the front foot in the western information sphere, and have successfully completed the 'long march through the institutions' in western academia, and perhaps government too. As they are the banner carriers for international socialism, I'd think many of these groups in the west would look up to them.
… “ the 'long march through the institutions' in western academia “
aka ‘gweilo’ re-education
"I believe the CPC is also behind a renewed push for socialism in western civilisation, and in this it’s winning the battle for hearts and minds."
For chrissakes, go and look up the definition of socialism, you're embarrassing yourself again.
It’s funny how it’s the very socialism believers themselves who keep crawling out from under the bed to try to deny the fact that the eternal battle between capitalism and socialism is alive and well, that socialist themes are making significant inroads into the public debate and thought and the hearts and minds of the west, that China has got its socialist tentacles spread out and wielding influence in every nook and cranny on this planet, etc. Keep denying…
Counterpoint:
The massive reduction in government funding to universities here in Australia (and the West more broadly) to align with free market principles was actually a critical decision that has enabled CCP directed influence and intertwining in our academic institutions. This has led to industrial scale IP theft, toning down of views critical of CCP actions, built long term dependency on foreign students and infrastructure funding. More disturbingly, it has provided a platform for monitoring and actions against Chinese (and other) citizens in Australia.
It’s more complex than creeping socialism.
stunet wrote:frog wrote:World history can be understood in terms of producers and plunderers. The plunderers prey on the producers.
Curious that you emphasise creeping socialism here in Australia when the greatest social issue we have is a widening wealth gap. Anyone truly concerned about Australia's future should be focussing their concerns on that in all its flavours.
Big Tech moguls have exceeded govts in terms of power and influence, doing just as Adam Smith expected, acting in self-interest, which doesn't always align with public interest. And they're only the most visible examples; this game of charades goes on behind closed doors and away from public sight. At least govts are transparent and accountable.
Anything else is a distraction, such as all this nonsense about the coming Communism. FFS take a look around, you've got papier mache for brains if you think we're on the cusp of some socialised revolution. Since 1945, we've never been further away from it.
If I can take a guess, most people here grew up in a country much closer to 'socialism' with a broad safety net, restraints on unfettered capitalism, and a sense of social cohesion. I'd also wager those same people would say those were better days. Yet now those same people instill fear through a reds under the bed campaign, playing Shoeshine Boys for the people who'd really love that message spread as it allows them to carry on as per usual.
It may surpise you but I am actually a member of a union, mostly vote labour (but I tend to be frustrated with 50% of what either party proposes and does). I am for the same sort of society you describe in your post.
I don't see "reds under the bed". On the left, I do, however, see a disconnect that seems to be growing as to where the wealth comes from that supports the lives they enjoy and a willingness to disparage and stifle the producers.
I also see a creeping use of leftish language and concepts by some very powerful interests to control society. Behind the scenes, ironically, I think it is often not "commies" driving this, it is often right wing elites, for want of a better label, and some huge corporations. They are doing so not because they have the best interests of the people at heart. Some have realised that the language of the left is more powerful and palatable.
Broadly, many quite extreme things were done under phrases that sound so nice like "stay safe" tnat were not good for the population and very good for big pharma for example. The term "inclusive" is almost unassailable in its message of goodness but has and will be used to do harm often just by the pendulum of valid ideas swinging too far. But also by those wielding power in undesireable ways.
Left leaning language is very effective in shutting down debate.
Google, FB, Amazon, big pharma and to top it all, the US military industrial complex, have adopted left leaning language and political support to hide their true predatory nature. That the Democrats are now the war party and closely aligned to big IT and big pharma shows how effective they have been and how murky the left / right concepts have become.
And of course, geopolitical players also know what helps them to at least sow seeds of disunity and fragmentation of the societies they seek to weak. They would likely try to push both left and right groups into extremes.
It is complex and murky out there. I hope for the middle ground and good policy to prevail but see pendulums swinging well out of balance in many areas.
‘ I hope for the middle ground and good policy to prevail but see pendulums swinging well out of balance in many areas. ‘
True.
- for a second there I misread the ‘middle ground’ as being a reference to the middle kingdom, Zhōngguó ;)
Luckily I checked with the reds under the bed and was able to discern that things can get lost in translation …
All that recent 18mths of RBA defaming, the causes of inflation being corporate profits, real wages not keeping up with productivity, share of labour wages in business revenue falling (all these things got debunked by the RBA, federal treasury and productivity commission), productivity doesn’t matter, monetary policy doesn’t work and instead entrenches inequality and the wealthy elite, economics is not a science but a conspiracy theory, MMT is a valid alternative, huge government debt doesn’t matter…basically all of the ‘economics commentary’ of late by our left media, is all just classic socialist themes of capitalist exploitation infiltrating what should be factual, rational economics debate.
gsco wrote:bonza, it's almost like you're criticising me for learning and evolving my views over time. Also, I'm a nobody now living in a van and know nothing about China. What you quoted simply comes from my experience of following the western media circus and think tank output on China, but then stepping off the plane and seeing things with my own eyes, and realising that they've basically got lots of it wrong. Plus I know some people in China (again, not referring to me) who've lived and worked in say the finance industry and academia there for decades, are fluent in Mandarin (and Cantonese), etc; they have a more accurate and less biased understanding of China than any think tank commentator sitting in Aus.
[.
that's a stunning turnaround in evolution considering how staunch your views and faux outrage were on this matter. no, i wasn't criticising you for that. that would be juvenile. so, your more like a reformed smoker now or a recently converted vegan when it comes to the CCP intent. I wonder how long until the evolution in thought occurs re your macro-economic rationale.
goofyfoot wrote:
Thanks fliplid, I still struggle to comprehend this is actually true. And not that long ago.
I’ll check out that series.
Not too sure if you'll be thanking me after watching it
- opting for lighter forms of storytelling/documentation sometimes allows for greater understanding, empathy and debate of matters regarding racial stereotypes and historical trauma… humour can also be the best medicine to remedy entrenched bigotry and also highlight hidden truths. These vids both represent examples of clever and appropriate displays of exploring emotional responses - first one more of a social experiment, and second one just straight out funny…
The artists being of the same ethnicity as the subject matter show a trait that aussies can best relate to…
- the age old art of taking the piss ;)
https://m.
https://m.
&pp=ygUcdW5jbGUgcm9nZXIgYXNpYW4gZ290IHRhbGVudA%3D%3D gsco wrote:All that recent 18mths of RBA defaming, the causes of inflation being corporate profits, real wages not keeping up with productivity, share of labour wages in business revenue falling (all these things got debunked by the RBA, federal treasury and productivity commission), productivity doesn’t matter, monetary policy doesn’t work and instead entrenches inequality and the wealthy elite, economics is not a science but a conspiracy theory, MMT is a valid alternative, huge government debt doesn’t matter…basically all of the ‘economics commentary’ of late by our left media, is all just classic socialist themes of capitalist exploitation infiltrating what should be factual, rational economics debate.
In the framework of the producer / plunderer model you look beyond the left / right labels to who is doing the plundering and to better understand their agendas and methods.
With concepts such as MMT, don't worry about huge deficits, debt does not matter, big government is good etc. there are plenty of plunderers who benefit from this largesse. Using the US as an example, here are some:
There are the obvious plundering "right" who love many leftish policies and have found the Democrats very profitable:
- Wall St loves government and Fed liquidity like Dracula loves blood
- the MIC love it too as military spending can be ramped up by billions and trillions without a handbrake of a concern for budgets
Then there are the pseudo left plunderers (enjoying their virtue signaling protective cloaks) to grow to monopolistic scale or, in the case of some foundations, to siphon off government money for their good deeds, big salaries and very high operating costs:
- Jeff Bezos owner of Amazon AND the left leaning Washington Post
- Google and FB
- Pfizer
- Numerous Foundations that keep their founders very wealthy (Clinton Foundation)
Then there is the real left (modest in scale compared to the big players listed above):
- a host of poorly conceived and targeted programs
- movements that go off the rails under poor or corrupt leadership (BLM)
Look behind the curtain of the labels of both left and right and you will see a host of plunderers. Judge on behaviour not the label.
frog][quote=stunet wrote:frog wrote:World history can be understood in terms of producers and plunderers. The plunderers prey on the producers.
That the Democrats are now the war party and closely aligned to big IT and big pharma shows how effective they have been and how murky the left / right concepts have become.
It is complex and murky out there. I hope for the middle ground and good policy to prevail but see pendulums swinging well out of balance in many areas.
Couple of things: the Republicans are also pro-war, if that’s how you want to define it. It’s more that their choice of adversary is different - in this case it’s Iran.
Secondly, they’re all as wound up in big business / pharma / MIC. It’s the nature of the system. Businesses deliberately spread their interests across multiple states - both blue and red districts - to ensure that they have a voice in congress and the senate.
Much of the current noise is just opposition to whatever the other side is doing.
latest socialist update:
https://australiainstitute.org.au/post/corporate-profits-must-take-hit-t...
with more irrational leftist economic lynching:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-21/price-gouging-inquiry-inflation-b...
yep, they'll stop at nothing to try to prove that evil corporations run by privileged white heterosexual Christian males are the cause of all of society's problems.
Australia's socialist experiment is well underway under the ALP and termed Socialism with Australian Characteristics:
1. The Australian socialist experiment: capturing capitalism
2. The Australian socialist experiment: the labour market revolution
3. The Australian socialist experiment: quasi-nationalisation and re-purposing of free-markets
Some more:
- Large percentage of Aussies want socialism - but don’t want to pay for it
- Red is the new black: Support for and attitudes towards socialism in Australia and the United States
- Millennials and socialism: Australian youth are lurching to the left
And the ABC is the biggest peddler of the socialist cult out of them all. Unfortunately the Australian population doesn't realise that by believing the ABC verbatim they are getting indoctrinated into socialism.
I thought the comedy festival finished last month. Clearly not.
Great Swellnet China Operative
Gsco, do you realise the author of "Millennials and Socialism: Australian youth are lurching to the left" is right wing ABC presenter Tom Switzer?
Are you confused yet?
In any case it's a garbage article, trying to conflate a distrust of neoliberalism with a rejection of capitalism and a supposed risk of heading towards oppressive communism.
And as far as I can see he failed to establish a working definition for socialism before asking people whether they approved of it etc.
It's actually quite embarrassing for Switzer, it makes him look disingenuous and desperate.
stunet wrote:Great Swellnet China Operative
Lol. Wish I thought of that.
‘ yep, they'll stop at nothing to try to prove that evil corporations run by privileged white heterosexual Christian males are the cause of all of society's problems. ‘
Those privileged white heterosexual christian males are dangerous…
Aaaaand… it’s been going on for quite some time now.
- ‘they’ even trained and sent Bruno out on clandestine socialist spy missions as head of indoctrination infiltration ;)
https://m.
Bat shit crazy man claims..
“yep, they'll stop at nothing to try to prove that evil corporations run by privileged white heterosexual Christian males are the cause of all of society's problems.”
Persecution complex in action. Godly version.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Persecution_complex
;)
https://m.
Oh come on. Could it happen just once for BSCM.
Please. Just once.
Playful.
I feel it’s a more serious matter.
https://youtube.com/shorts/TQFqA7hjFwo?si=nVpZ2x-bTIDwVslY
lol, swellnet's resident socialists can ridicule and insult all they want (standard socialist left argument technique) but the Australian people need to wake up and realise that we're living in the early stages of an ALP driven transition backwards towards socialism.
And that's not the only disastrous trend happening within western civilisation, white-anting itself from the inside out.
The other, which I've mentioned a number of times, is the full scale weaponisation of the west's history and rejection of its heritage and defining values and tenets by the woke socialist left, as discussed below.
..... ..... .....
Is a "woke" assault undermining the history of the West?
Indeed it is! A great podcast interview of Robert Tombs. Our school and university system has shifted to a woke socialist anti-west weaponisation of our history. School children and university graduates who hate everything about western civilisation and who are turning to socialism are being churned out at a rate of knots, as discussed in the podcast.
Is our past being misrepresented in our schools, cultural institutions and broader society? Is it correct to present the history of the West as one of only shame, apology and reparations? Robert Tombs, Professor Emeritus, French History, Cambridge University, UK
... ... ...
And this article (and the associated article in The Australian) explains things well too:
Weaponised history is being used to undermine and demoralise the English-speaking world
Woke cultural communism is well and truely established in western civilisation:
We see a vast campaign to undermine and demoralise – well, what exactly? The main target is the English-speaking world, with the attack mainly coming out of the US and spreading. The long-term effect is to discredit the idea of the West (a term I am using as shorthand, as do both admirers and critics) as the main source of modernity and progress (however uneven) over the past three centuries, including as American legal scholars Richard Delgado and Jean Stefancic say, “the very foundations of the liberal order, including … legal reasoning, Enlightenment rationalism and neutral principles of constitutional law”.
For some this attack is deliberate: they claim the West is the root of evil. For others who may not consciously reject Western ideas, it is merely unthinking collateral damage caused by cultural modishness – what philosopher John Gray has called “a farrago of critical race and gender theories imported from America”. For outright enemies, including Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping, it is invaluable propaganda.
There is no agreed name for what is happening: woke of course is colloquial but not very scientific; other terms are cultural Marxism (which I think is misleading – Marxism was at least coherent), hyper-liberalism, radical progressivism, even the successor ideology. The profusion of terms shows our uncertainty. Yet there seem to be several evident sources.
The Voice is a perfect example of this weaponisation of our history and current triumph of anti-west woke socialism.
“The Voice is a perfect example of this weaponisation of our history and current triumph of anti-west woke socialism.”
Steady on there; clutch those pearls any harder and the whole necklace’ll break!
Have it cunts