Turnbull rolls over "again" to the ultra right

Floyd: We also have the visa 457 done by STEALTH. Imagine how many Aust jobs Telstra have vanished to the Philippines & India. Yep with digitisation it's so easy to outsource 'IT & Tech services' question is how do you control this kinda stuff, shareholders appear hamstrung. What the technology gives us it also takes.

spykan wrote: "the strong should look after the weak, the young look after the not-so-young, the fit look after the sick". This is what Labor should be about, but unfortunately suffering an identity crisis they have got caught up in every possible minority group and cause possible, and causes within causes are developing new causes to ask for funding, all good causes no doubt, but you cannot fix everything. So you need to prioritise and focus on your core causes, which in my book for Labor would be industrial relations etc"

Agree & what constitutes' WELFARE' these days. The 'Lord gives to the needy not to the Greedy" ! Have a look at the attached link regarding 'Social Security Payments for families' this used to be called 'child endowment' back in the 1950's, a flat rate of five shillings per week for each Aust child under the age of 16 years. Fast track to year 2000, this was replaced with family tax benefit A & B, the $ amounts go friggin skyward, everyone seemed to be a winner ? The massive $ redistribution was to compensate people for the intro of the GST, even people with incomes of $73k in 2000 were getting $3k per baby & $975 per child. Family Tax benefit A was never means tested & was yearly indexed ! At some point you gotta ask yourself is this really necessary & does it pass the test / definition of welfare. If I understand S.Morrison he is now saying funding for the 'NDIS' will have to come from the existing welfare budget ie $10 billion a year required from Feds, if so this may help to re-balance the welfare portfolio. http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliam...

Tonybarber wrote: "Tom was right I think Albanese has a bit of old Labor in him, but the party rejected him" Uhm so what does that say about the current Labor caucus ! When the grass roots voted overwhelming for Anthony. Bill Shorten would have to be one of the most Machiavellian, cunning, deceiving pollies of the modern area given his past actions. Modern Labor are confusing, appears that way.

Well may we say....
because nothing but johno and john Faulkner will save the labor party.
I like your work johno, you give me a little hope, because members like tb give me no faith, that's if he's a member.

The family tax benefits have to be addressed. Howard built them up through the boom, but now they are totally unsustainable and unnecessary. Despite them being a liberal develolment my middleclass Abbott hating mates don't even want to talk about giving them up, along with a heap of other middle class welfare. Like negative gearing its hard to face, but needs facing, both sides are ignoring many structural problems.

Yeh Abbott is exaggerating debt to make change, but is he? Yesterday The Australian reported another 40bil off the budget thanks to falling iron ore prices. Times are a changing. Neither side can be blamed for this shit, but both sides seem to be in denial. My mates in mining (who aren't driving dump trucks) reckon there are big changes coming, this is why hockey and abbott are freaking out.

It's scary to think an incompetent labor could get in.

Johno who do you think could lead labor?

I know john Faulkner is a dream, for lame reasons in these desperate times, in my opinion, but I really cannot think of anyone else with the gumption to take labor through these desperate times. Please tell me there is someone better than albaneese?

I think Wong would have potential if it wasn't for the first female labor PM debacle that was gillard. Maybe in about ten years.

Sorry spykan, I think we going to have to flip a few more Govt's be it Liberal or Labor to sort this mess out. Someone younger Gen Y, will come along & work it out. The current baby boomer group of Libs & Labor are trying to blow the country up over the most stupid of things, sadly they do not appreciate the importance of power, there had it all too easy. A distraction - Dick Cheney once said, "You know, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter" ! Well they do ! Bill Clinton proved that & then George W Bush (Jnr) decided to ignore that advice & the WORLD got a very nasty shock.

We have had 20yrs in Oz of amazing prosperity, I ask myself how did we get it so right ! The Bob Hawke successful legacy was no accident, man they were the best of the very best. The Lennon / McCartney equivalent, brilliant.

The big reform debates of the future are how you re-invest yourself & by doing so maintain that prosperity, we all want that. But that conversation is now almost impossible because you asking for sacrifice & after 20yrs of $ growth that's a hard conversation to have particularly if one side or the other in politics doesn't play fair & keep screaming cost of living etc. This is a political class they do not understand the power of there own game, they get through the daily 24/7 cycle, but ultimately it doesn't get anything done, which is why we keep flipping govt - the electorate are bruised & cynical....gridlock ! Enter Gen Y, a new wave of leadership, no unwanted baggage & hopefully with a similar mind set to Hawke, Keating, Howard, that's the future.
Johno

Sorry spykan, I think we going to have to flip a few more Govt's be it Liberal or Labor to sort this mess out. Someone younger Gen Y, will come along & work it out. The current baby boomer group of Libs & Labor are trying to blow the country up over the most stupid of things, sadly they do not appreciate the importance of power, there had it all too easy. A distraction - Dick Cheney once said, "You know, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter" ! Well they do ! Bill Clinton proved that & then George W Bush (Jnr) decided to ignore that advice & the WORLD got a very nasty shock.

We have had 20yrs in Oz of amazing prosperity, I ask myself how did we get it so right ! The Bob Hawke successful legacy was no accident, man they were the best of the very best. The Lennon / McCartney equivalent, brilliant.

The big reform debates of the future are how you re-invest yourself & by doing so maintain that prosperity, we all want that. But that conversation is now almost impossible because you asking for sacrifice & after 20yrs of $ growth that's a hard conversation to have particularly if one side or the other in politics doesn't play fair & keep screaming cost of living etc. This is a political class they do not understand the power of there own game, they get through the daily 24/7 cycle, but ultimately it doesn't get anything done, which is why we keep flipping govt - the electorate are bruised & cynical....gridlock ! Enter Gen Y, a new wave of leadership, no unwanted baggage & hopefully with a similar mind set to Hawke, Keating, Howard, that's the future.
Johno

Floyd , are you all for total open boarders policy ? Complete , unfettered access for all of mankind if they so wish to choose ?

Floyd you wrote : johno .... Howard, really?
Remember Howard's pre-election dog whistle ? "We will decide the people who come here and the manner in which they come".

In fairness to Howard you should fully quote NOT selectively what he said which at the time was
"W]e are a generous open hearted people taking more refugees on a per capita basis than any nation except Canada, we have a proud record of welcoming people from 140 different nations.
But we will decide who comes to this country and the circumstances in which they come... We will be compassionate, we will save lives, we will care for people but we will decide and nobody else who comes to this country"

— Prime Minister John Howard, 28 October 2001

I'm no Howard supporter floyd, I'm rusty old Labor member / voter & I despised many of the things Howard did which affected me personally during his reign, but below are 2 things I truly admired Howard for while in office. Both of which required extreme diplomacy / leadership.
# Help create the annexation / independence for East Timor from Indonesia
# Gun buyback scheme post Port Arthur massacre

Johno

there seems to be a lot of talk about our social security not being sustainable.....??

the answer is very simple ...if the Co's who do not pay tax in Australia or token tax rates........were taxed on flat tax basis we would have more than $10b pa extra......its the taxes that are not being paid.....and the LNP's policy....get rid of a couple of thousand ATO inspectors.

It's very hard to try and understand why the top end of town are paying less tax.......so lets tax the bottom end of town.

when you se Co's like Google/Apple/James Hardy who are sending massive profits to places like Singapore/Switzerland/Ireland...all to avoid taxes...

if all these rich mongrels paid what was due...we could afford all our social needs....

and lets hope next week Abbott our surfing PM still keeps his job.......he is the man!!!

It seems to me that countries with decent social security systems seem to ride out economic storms better than those without... Those without decent welfare systems have true poverty, something alot of Australians have never seen.... I'd hate to be an aged person in India with no pension, or a disabled person in Nigeria.... Even the USA struggles bouncing back after the gfc, due to it's sub par welfare system...

Welfare is just a fair way of economic stimulus..... I'd have to say at least 30% of bakery sales go to pensioners..... They love coming in early and buying yesterdays marked down bread, or once a fortnight, splurging on a pastie..... I reckon alot of smaller towns would go to the wall if there was no welfare....

Sure, throw the book at the very small minority who work and don't declare their income... Encourage long term unemployed (who btw are only a small fraction of the 6% looking for work) to take up some form of training. Have a serious look at negatively geared seniors who still get an aged pension..... But let's not go all "neocon" on it.....

One, two, three ,four who do we vote for! Five, six, seven, eight surely the one we don't hate! nine, ten, eleven, twelve Ozi Politic needs some help!
If Oz Politic keeps going the way it is, we will all have a shot at being the head of the Oz Government ,over time. Step right up!!!
(just be aware you only have one term before your comrades eat you)

looks like Tony's in for the long haul

http://www.sbs.com.au/comedy/article/2015/02/06/tony-abbott-bricks-himse...

Been sitting on the shoulder of this thread for a while now ... time to paddle in ;)

Like many, I too have become frustrated with the options on offer and have over some time now considered "how" things could change.

I recently came across this article: http://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2015/february/1422709200/tim-flannery...

in which, Tim and Catriona write:

"Can citizens ever hope to take back political power? If so, how? The example of Cincinnatus should inspire us, while the fate of Gaius Gracchus should warn us that individual leaders will always be vulnerable. But an army of Cincinnati – respected citizens willing to give up a little of their time and resources to serve their country in politics – is far harder to destroy. If such people could be marshalled into an organisation tailor-made to project the popular will into politics, they stand a chance of gathering such authority as to become invincible."

and go on to write:

"How might the Cincinnati organise? Imagine that you could join an internet-based communication platform that enabled you to help craft policy in areas of special interest to you, as well as to directly nominate candidates for election, along with ministers and prime ministers. You’d pay a nominal fee, log in, and, depending on your interest and expertise, enter one of many policy-formulation chat rooms."

Interesting concept?

Well, as the article goes on to discuss:

"Spain’s Podemos party recently provided an example of how the platform we outline here might operate, and how activism in politics can move from a party-first approach to a platform-first approach. The recent rise of Podemos (“We Can”) is credited to the use of the link-sharing site Reddit to organise. This past October, Reddit’s then general manager, Erik Martin, told the New Yorker, “We’ve never seen anyone use Reddit as an organising tool, not like this.”

Within the first few months of Podemos turning to Reddit as an organising tool, there were a million page views per month. The party’s Reddit page, or subreddit, includes links to videos, proposals, debate topics and news. The platform also facilitates online discussion and voting on issues, and allows users to maintain a dialogue with party leaders."

whether "reddit" is the best "platform" is open to debate. Perhaps another option is "DemocracyOS" as noted in the article:

"A different initiative has evolved among a group of Argentines, who asked, “How can we get our representatives, our elected representatives, to represent us?” The answer was DemocracyOS, an open-source platform designed to facilitate communication between citizens and their elected representatives. During a recent trial in Buenos Aires’ city legislature, a team of volunteers translated new legislation into plain language so that users of the platform could discuss and vote on them. One of DemocracyOS’s developers, Pia Mancini, explained during a TED talk in October 2014 that it is “about persuading and being persuaded. It’s about reaching a consensus as much as finding a proper way of channelling our disagreement. And finally, you can vote how you would like your elected representative to vote.” DemocracyOS has spawned a political party, which is yet to win representation in Argentina."

And, I note from the DemocracyOS website http://democracyos.org/ that they now have participation from other countries ...

Then , there is this:

"In Australia, attempts to influence politics using the internet have a taken different turn. Two of the country’s newest parties, the Australian Progressive Party and the Australian Progressives, launched in September 2014. Both use crowdfunding and promise to develop policy through community consultation. Broadly similar in purpose, with nearly identical names, they were divided and already competing politically before either had developed a mature technological platform. Because they prioritised the establishment of a political party ahead of the development of a platform, it’s hard to see how they can now mature into initiatives like Podemos or DemocracyOS."

????

So, I guess, my broad questions are:

Is this the solution? Should "we" (i.e. all those complaining and frustrated with the current options) get involved and help build such a platform in Australia? Are you willing to get involved, or is it "easier" to just whinge and complain?

looks like its now Mon morning at 9 .00am...Abbott torpedoed the Tues meeting so as not to give Monday to Turnbull to garner more support........please big Tony.....get rid of that turnbull,and Bishop and give Hockey/Morrison ...more power.....

brutus wrote:

there seems to be a lot of talk about our social security not being sustainable.....??

the answer is very simple ...if the Co's who do not pay tax in Australia or token tax rates........were taxed on flat tax basis we would have more than $10b pa extra......its the taxes that are not being paid.....and the LNP's policy....get rid of a couple of thousand ATO inspectors.

It's very hard to try and understand why the top end of town are paying less tax.......so lets tax the bottom end of town.

when you se Co's like Google/Apple/James Hardy who are sending massive profits to places like Singapore/Switzerland/Ireland...all to avoid taxes...

if all these rich mongrels paid what was due...we could afford all our social needs....

and lets hope next week Abbott our surfing PM still keeps his job.......he is the man!!!

Oz tax system has "rules" for what is technically knows as "transfer pricing". This is where a company like say Apple, charges itself for its own imported products and head office costs. Since it is the same company "group", what big companies do is have their profits "moved" to lower taxed locations by artificially inflating the "costs" charged between their own companies.

So, for example, the Oz Apple companies pays an inflated price for the products (iphone, iPads, etc.) and costs (i.e. head office admin, group marketing etc.) so in effect the profit from the Oz operations are "moved" offshore.

The "transfer pricing" rules are designed to stop this, but the issue becomes what is a 'fair and reasonable' price for the products and costs being charged ... hence, companies like Apple continue to get away with moving profits offshore and hence pay less tax in Australia.

A simple and much easier to administer system would be to tax large companies based upon their gross income via the amounts banked into their bank accounts. "Large" companies are already defined in the tax act, and the banking system is already linked to the ATO, so the data is readily available ... if they all (i.e. all 'large' companies which cover the banks, mining, apple, etc) pay say 1% of their gross income, the tax base would be wider, more revenue, less hassle to calculate and collect and then the govt could provide the services we all want ...

Oh, and by only taxing 'large' companies this way, all the small businesses in Australia would not be affected; they can continue to calculate and pay their taxes as they do now.

and its very interesting to note that google get $2B in advertising revenue..but do not declare this revenue..no wonder Apple just had its best ever 1/4..with $17B profit.....at the expense of....??

I think the Tax issues are huge..even to the point now I find it hard to buy apple....and am seriously thinking going Samsung.....cancel the google account...as these Co's are morally bankrupt ...and only more profit at any cost seems to be their M O......

A really interesting point re our political system is that if you search engine ( ah not Google!) politicians /polls.......and come across what western society rates as the most and least noble professions....or most and least respected professions.........guess which comes last on all polls.....behind prostitutes/psychics/lawyers .....Last place,ya guessed it Politicians!

So we live in a society that has little or no respect for our elected Pollies...but we let them make all the decisions for us!!!!

tax reform is a big issue but it is also a global problem. Neither Libs nor Labor have or can fix it without international co-operation. It aint that simple. Agree, we do seem to be in a time where there is a dearth of political leaders can galvanise the populace. Not convinced that Obama did it.

wingnut2443 wrote:

Been sitting on the shoulder of this thread for a while now ... time to paddle in ;)

Like many, I too have become frustrated with the options on offer and have over some time now considered "how" things could change.

I recently came across this article: http://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2015/february/1422709200/tim-flannery...

in which, Tim and Catriona write:

"Can citizens ever hope to take back political power? If so, how? The example of Cincinnatus should inspire us, while the fate of Gaius Gracchus should warn us that individual leaders will always be vulnerable. But an army of Cincinnati – respected citizens willing to give up a little of their time and resources to serve their country in politics – is far harder to destroy. If such people could be marshalled into an organisation tailor-made to project the popular will into politics, they stand a chance of gathering such authority as to become invincible."

and go on to write:

"How might the Cincinnati organise? Imagine that you could join an internet-based communication platform that enabled you to help craft policy in areas of special interest to you, as well as to directly nominate candidates for election, along with ministers and prime ministers. You’d pay a nominal fee, log in, and, depending on your interest and expertise, enter one of many policy-formulation chat rooms."

Interesting concept?

Well, as the article goes on to discuss:

"Spain’s Podemos party recently provided an example of how the platform we outline here might operate, and how activism in politics can move from a party-first approach to a platform-first approach. The recent rise of Podemos (“We Can”) is credited to the use of the link-sharing site Reddit to organise. This past October, Reddit’s then general manager, Erik Martin, told the New Yorker, “We’ve never seen anyone use Reddit as an organising tool, not like this.”

Within the first few months of Podemos turning to Reddit as an organising tool, there were a million page views per month. The party’s Reddit page, or subreddit, includes links to videos, proposals, debate topics and news. The platform also facilitates online discussion and voting on issues, and allows users to maintain a dialogue with party leaders."

whether "reddit" is the best "platform" is open to debate. Perhaps another option is "DemocracyOS" as noted in the article:

"A different initiative has evolved among a group of Argentines, who asked, “How can we get our representatives, our elected representatives, to represent us?” The answer was DemocracyOS, an open-source platform designed to facilitate communication between citizens and their elected representatives. During a recent trial in Buenos Aires’ city legislature, a team of volunteers translated new legislation into plain language so that users of the platform could discuss and vote on them. One of DemocracyOS’s developers, Pia Mancini, explained during a TED talk in October 2014 that it is “about persuading and being persuaded. It’s about reaching a consensus as much as finding a proper way of channelling our disagreement. And finally, you can vote how you would like your elected representative to vote.” DemocracyOS has spawned a political party, which is yet to win representation in Argentina."

And, I note from the DemocracyOS website http://democracyos.org/ that they now have participation from other countries ...

Then , there is this:

"In Australia, attempts to influence politics using the internet have a taken different turn. Two of the country’s newest parties, the Australian Progressive Party and the Australian Progressives, launched in September 2014. Both use crowdfunding and promise to develop policy through community consultation. Broadly similar in purpose, with nearly identical names, they were divided and already competing politically before either had developed a mature technological platform. Because they prioritised the establishment of a political party ahead of the development of a platform, it’s hard to see how they can now mature into initiatives like Podemos or DemocracyOS."

????

So, I guess, my broad questions are:

Is this the solution? Should "we" (i.e. all those complaining and frustrated with the current options) get involved and help build such a platform in Australia? Are you willing to get involved, or is it "easier" to just whinge and complain?

Your comment shows the intelligence of the minority, the problem is' the majority don't care to put thought to these issues.......
What is needed is the intelligible to stand up and represent those that can't represent them self. That is what I thought our Democratic Government was for! so to your question/challenge yes I'm willing and ready to accept a new way of determining the direction of Oz Politic. What would be the first step?

fishlegs...a lie detector test would go along way in cleaning up politics , and the abolition of lobby groups....thats a start!

C'mon Tony is the man...which surfers would seriously not like a surfing PM...he will win today !!!

You are dreaming, floyd.... Like a good politician, I never laid a bet.. I simply asked you if Abbott will survive ( not this spill) till next election.... You and your sao munching mate , grocer, held hands and agreed that Abbott will be there in 2016......
Now down the hatch like an oyster, mate..... That's it.... Good boy...... ;P

"and they aren't going to turn on Abbott. Not now not before the next election. "....... ;)

sheepy.........next election is the NSW state election......and that's about how long Abbott is sure of governing till.........if the NSW ia like the SA,VIC/Qld....back to rabble.....

I suggest Baird is not like Campbell Newman nor like Abbott. Labor (in NSW) is still in the courts or in ICAC, so. Meet with local Labor MP (I believe he is clean, a rare one) and he is giving it a go and doing the right thing. Hence, if Baird wins then Abbott is not out of the fire.

Last night, Jones and Ridout made fools out of the two politicians, Floyd..... BTW, if you see in the bolt blog or in the Guardian some lunatic named Harrytick, as in "heretic",,,,, be careful ;p

yeah sheepy was watching Qand A and Alan Jones knew his stuff alright ran rings around the other wanna bes.

floyd wrote:

There you go Alan Jones and the Greens fighting CSG & coal mining !!!

It's not a dispassionate response from Jones. He owns lots of land in the Hunter Valley, as do his friends.

gents, if you follow Jones or rather listen to him in more detail, he is making a comment on mining on farming land hence the conflict. He is supportive of mining in general but not on quality farm land with aquifers and open cut coal mines. Greens, by definition, are against everything.

Good on Alan jones, he's a wanker but csg is such an unproven technology that could be destroying farm lands.

Federal labor could learn a lot from SA labor who released their vision for the future which included restricting the footprint of the city also preserving farmland and encouraging population density. While I think they are a little over ambitious thinking Adelaide could be the worlds first carbon neautral city, especially considering Australia's ridiculously high consumption lifestyle (that is encouraged by twisted tax laws), aiming for electric and hybrid cars cannot be a bad thing. Thankfully they proposed serious tax reform and restrictions for lobbyists as well...yeh!!

Ambitious and unrealistic as it may be, at least it is a vision, and some sort of cohesive indication of what they stand for, more than you can say for federal labor.

Turnball slaughtered shorten yesterday, can labor really afford another18 months of that?
Not only does shorten have no idea, no vision, no credibility and no charisma, yesterday he had no words too... nothing.

Sypo -
A- yes, Jones is a tosser, but personality has to be put aside and each opinion/idea has to be taken objectively... So, yeah, i agree with Jones, too (re csg)....... I also agreed with Clive palmer this morning ( I checked my temp afterwards lol)..... His comments on business tax. and hockey, were spot on..
B - SA labor...... In the Blind boys climate change thread, I have harped like a broken record about nuclear trojans infiltrating the global warming movement....
We now see the first signs of this via Premier Jay Weatherill....... " The threat of CLIMATECHANGE, the fact that we're already in the nuclear industry but we don't get full benefits from it because we just send ore overseas in an unprocessed form and we don't accept the by-products, the waste associated with the ore that we send away."
http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2015/s4176304.htm

Jay Weatherill again - "“The truth is we are already in the nuclear fuel cycle. I mean we are selling uranium to the world"......
http://www.afr.com/p/national/jay_weatherill_appoints_royal_commission_4...

This nuclear promotion has nothing to do with "climate change"...... Labor's carbon tax had nothing to do with "climate change"...... Both ideas put the economy first and people last.... I have come around "slightly" on climate change.... I still do not think it is as disastrous as those with hidden economic agendas think.... I still think the raping of o2 producing carbon storing forests is the key, and the lack of action by governments on this (because raping the Amazon is good for ECONOMIES) shows I'm right...
Climate change has to be addressed holistically.... When governments put economic outcomes first, and not the health of the world, you know it's a crock of shit....

C - Bulb Shortle, I mean Blub Shitser, i mean Blurt Shonker, I mean Bill Shorten needs to lift his act, and quick.... I'd suggest to him to stop talking to us like we a pre school kids..... Gillard did that... Abbott does it..... It shits me to tears.... Fraser, hawke, Keating, even Howard spoke to us like adults.....

Sheepdog, I agree with you regarding climate change being an excuse for Wheatherill to raise nuclear power, and nuclear power is a big time hate of mine, but I am not concerned about him raising it as I believe most Australians are dead against it, therefore it wont get any momentum. With the exception of those with vested interests and morons, most people can see renewables are the future, especially in a country as blessed with such resources as Australia.

Also agree the climate change thingy is probably being overstated, and that a carbon tax is a questionable solution. However I believe it is better to do something and with the current mindset of Australians (that being self obsessed selfish pigs who will blame everything but their own consumption patterns) it is probably the best we can hope for in the current context. Yep slowing or stopping deforestation makes more sense but how can we ask developing countries to do this when it was an important part of our development process? Well we could actually, by pumping our inflated dollars into preservation measures but that would undermine the economic system. And as you suggest, economy is king. Geez all those reports that blindboy wants us to read cite consumption and economic growth as being the problems, but even advocates like blindboy seem to skim over some inconvenient truths, so slowly slowy is the MO, undermining the supposed urgency.

re. social security being cut (you and brutus) Im not for social security being cut. Having lived in some economically challenged areas like yourself, I am very aware social security is a fundamental income for many towns in Oz. I actually believe social security should be raised in many areas, as people are struggling. Not only this people are becoming more disenfranchised and Australia is becoming much more devided thanks to the so called boom. Having said that, social security should be for those who need it, and should not include baby bonuses and the like. People should not be icentitivised to have babies, they should have them because they have love (and finances) to support them.

Mr. Wingnut, you ask

Are you willing to get involved, or is it "easier" to just whinge and complain?
Silly question, it is easier to just whinge and complain, but this is not the only reason for lack of involovment. Lack of involvemnt comes from being disenfranchised and disillusioned with the current status quo. I cannot find a contemporary party I would bother to support. Labor is lost. Liberal are areseholes, and the greens are relying on fairies to save us. The only person offering any inspiration is Nick Xenophon. One is also disenfranchised thanks to the digital divide. You gave some excellent ideas and examples for people to get involved, however if one's work does not chain one to a computer one is not really interested in many of your examples. I begrudgingly use computers, and many of the disengaged are the same. Yes this is changing generationally, but half of the younger generation still cannot get past the trash like facebook. You clearly are a professional intelligent man, but engaging more people is the only way to improve our democracy.

The largest problem with current politics is the language politicians use. I heard a very interesting interview with Don Watson on ABC. (author Weazel Words) He said politicians are working so hard to control the media they constantly use party lines and phrases to such an extent that they cannot even think about what they are saying. The phrases are so meaningless that translators cannot even translate the words to another language. As a result translators have no alternative but to stop translating when politicians start with their party lines. SPIN SPIN SPIN, so sad!

Sypo, re' "The phrases are so meaningless that translators cannot even translate the words to another language. "

Floyd - Belsen was a gas...
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/tony-abbott-attacks-former-lab...

Well... It is great viewing, floyd..... Reality tv at its best lol

Floyd you dick. Why do we have so many people( kids ) in detention. Secondly the piece of shit scum that abuse these kids.
You and and your wanker type would allow in tommorow fuckwit.

Floyd. It's not a rock but is called work and having a life. Please inform me why we have so many kids in detention and tell me how mis-understood these child abusers are.
Just let them straight into society so they can live near my kids. Then when they abuse my kids or some one else you can come around and explain how I am un-informed. Before I shove your head up your arse and then take out my own justice on these piece of scum.
Or maybe these type should live next to you or your family.

Nick3... Why are you an idiot?
"The figures follow allegations of sexual abuse of women and children on Nauru, including underage asylum seekers being forced to PERFORM SEXUAL ACTS IN FRONT OF GUARDS; female asylum seekers being told to strip naked IN FRONT OF GUARDS if they wanted a shower longer than two minute"

"all incident reports logged at the Nauru detention centre relating to the MISCONDUCT OF CENTRE STAFF and all complaints of sexual assault and child abuse made to case workers in the past 12 months."

"A worker at the Nauru detention centre, who asked not to be named, told Fairfax Media on Tuesday that she often saw CHILDREN SITTING ON GUARDS LAPS LATE AT NIGHT."

"Australian and Nauruan guards, paid for by the Abbott government, have had serious allegations levelled against them."

It's the guards, not the inmates.... Fair dinkum, nick.....

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/detention-centre-c...

Floyd, re' asylum seekers.. i think the damage to the Australian psyche is nearly beyond repair... August 2001, John howard....... It's now 2015.... there are 13 yo kids who know nothing bar "illegals".... A whole generation..... The Nick's of this country are that brainwashed... You just point out that a real terrorist would come here by plane and they lose their minds... They start to froth about boat people.... They can't accept that they're wrong.... Bottomline - Sydney siege guy came here by plane... Latest dude arrested came here by plane... Only a 1/2 wit terrorist would spend 3 years coming by leaky boat just to be put through the ringer.....
But it wont matter how you say it.... They'll run from the planes issue... They'll do anything in their own minds to justify locking up children like dogs... Expect an "at least it stopped the drownings" comment... Yep, kids getting molested would do that.....