The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

bluediamond started the topic in

Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

harrycoopr Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 1:55pm

southernraw wrote:
andy-mac wrote:
Great to see this level of debate....

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CxRshoph-eW/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Is that you @lowinfo??

Definitely indo!!

gsco Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 2:11pm

By giving preferential treatment and political rights to a specific racial group, The Voice is also not in the spirit of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.

Our political system is already in the spirit of the declaration.

Supafreak Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 2:15pm

@gsco , what do you believe you will lose if the yes vote gets up ?

harrycoopr Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 2:20pm

gsco wrote:
By giving preferential treatment and political rights to a specific racial group, The Voice is also not in the spirit of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.

Our political system is already in the spirit of the declaration.

Here we go again...preferential privileged racial... pls take yr misinformation elsewhere

gsco Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 2:26pm

It's a solid step in the direction of losing everything western civilisation represents and has fought for: equality in freedom, liberty, opportunity, access and rights, with no preferential, unique or privileged treatment given to anyone of any background.

It’s a regression back towards the dark ages.

Supafreak Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 2:34pm

@gsco , so personally you will lose what exactly ? How will your life change ? When you wake up in the morning in 5 years time what will be so vastly different ?

burleigh Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 2:38pm

harrycoopr][quote=fitzroy-21 wrote:
yes ive written papers and academic stuff published across the world...

Not that we needed it, but here is proof Harry is full of it. I haven’t giggled so much in a long time reading this piece of gold.

harrycoopr Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 2:47pm

burleigh][quote=harrycoopr wrote:
fitzroy-21 wrote:
yes ive written papers and academic stuff published across the world...

Not that we needed it, but here is proof Harry is full of it. I haven’t giggled so much in a long time reading this piece of gold.

U poor demented fool burley... its no wonder u are the way u are

harrycoopr Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 2:51pm

gsco wrote:
It's a solid step in the direction of losing everything western civilisation represents and has fought for: equality in freedom, liberty, opportunity, access and rights, with no preferential, unique or privileged treatment given to anyone of any background.

It’s a regression back towards the dark ages.

Lol... now i know yr joking... ok very funny!
Are u guys part of the Proud Boys? Certainly boys... what imaginations!!

gsco Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 2:56pm

I personally lose my place as having equal opportunity and (particularly political) rights with all other individuals in this country.

I see a particular group of people elevated above not just me but all other groups of people and individuals not in that elevated group.

I see individuals in that elevated group as having more political power and influence to me and being able to be more heard and make more representations to parliament than me and all other non-elevated individuals.

I see myself in an institutionally unfair and discriminated against position which is not in the spirit of our great land, the lessons of history, or our western heritage, particularly what was fought for in the enlightenment and French Revolution.

I see a situation starting to resemble political systems of the Middle Ages in which particular groups of people were elevated above the general population, with unfair, discriminatory and prejudiced results.

harrycoopr Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 2:58pm

An advisory body for the people who first lived here... for millennia.
The people whose ancestors endured genocide to varying degrees and the worst sort of shit that could be thrown their way.
And yet they survived! Finally to be recognised... even celebrated by some. God knows Aussie tourism sells Aboriginal culture as a major drawcard. Can we have an advisory body and be recognised in the whiteys constitution... seeing as we were here first?
NOPE

harrycoopr Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 2:59pm

gsco wrote:
I personally lose my place as having equal opportunity and (particularly political) rights with all other individuals in this country.

I see a particular group of people elevated above not just me but all other groups of people and individuals not in that elevated group.

I see individuals in that elevated group as having more political power and influence to me and being able to be more heard and make more representations to parliament than me and all other non-elevated individuals.

I see myself in an institutionally unfair and discriminated against position which is not in the spirit of our great land, the lessons of history, or our western heritage, particularly what was fought for in the enlightenment and French Revolution.

I see a situation starting to resemble political systems of the Middle Ages in which particular groups of people were elevated above the general population, with unfair, discriminatory and prejudiced results.

This costco... this is why yr a fool

Hiccups Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 3:01pm

quote=harrycoopr]

southernraw wrote:
andy-mac wrote:
Great to see this level of debate....

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CxRshoph-eW/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Is that you @lowinfo??

Not indo. Giving off heavy burleigh vibes though. Nah, that's Brad Beaven, ice addict, and a well known gurning head in cooker circles. He spent most of the winter in a various Canberra carparks, freezing his arse off protesting against "the agenda", and/or whatever crackpot theory he felt the need to pontificate about. Many of those extreme conspiracy theory touting torched units have taken up the vote no cause of late, with gusto, as you can see.

Here's another of his greatest hits.

It’s this Brad Beaven 👇 Brad is vile, ugly and threatening and needs a stint in a secure mental health facility. #DontBeLikeBrad #VoteYes pic.twitter.com/va3CQ5PY4J
— Kerrie (@wheels002) September 16, 2023

basesix Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 3:12pm

gsco wrote:
It's a solid step in the direction of losing everything western civilisation represents and has fought for: equality in freedom, liberty, opportunity, access and rights, with no preferential, unique or privileged treatment given to anyone of any background.

It’s a regression back towards the dark ages.

WTF are you on about gsco?

(as I've said before, gsco, the age of reasoning came about in conjunction with 'western civilisation' looking at, and incorporating, philosophy, science and sociology from 'different' systems at the outreaches of various European colonies, and despite this early open-mindedness, never let go of God's might = Right... still does to some. Late-Antiquity was an amazing time of idea-formation that was usurped by the churches, but led us to our 'western civilisation'.. who calls it the 'Dark Ages' anymore? Pfft.)

Are you worshipping at the altar of base 10 mathematical rationalism gsco?
A world built on a foundation of banana-peeling mitts? Applying this to softer sciences? Decimalising people?

I'd have thought a pure-mathematician would know better. Base 12 (dozens) battling with base 10 is what has made the mathematical world wonderous and interesting.

And it's why 11 and 12 have their own names, aren't called oneteen (one and ten) and twoteen, like the teen numbers - even the teens have weird names (not onety three, onety four) because a 'score' was deemed fashionable for a time, four and twenty and all that.

Nah, gsco, variety and messiness is good, mix it all up. Believe in humans, not systems. Combine influences, like clocks (which challenge the hell out of our thinking as kids) & Julius Caesar calendars (fun mathematically, but you do end up with people saying shit like 'it's the first day of spring' based on a pretty numeric pattern, not the real world : P )

"A dozen eggs and a Coopers carton thanks!", mixtures of things that acknowledge 1/1, 1/2, 1/3, 1/4 should all be whole-number doable in the real world, and 1/5 is only marginally handy or adaptable, and laying that over a system acknowledging we seem to find the need to base our, completely arbitrary system, around the fact that we have 10 fingers (ugh!).

The idea of zero, infinity, pi, golden spirals & angles, (you could use a bit of golden mean in your politics and view of history gsco!) may be mostly about fundamentals, but how we interpret them, understand them and express them is totally made-up monkey-speak from Europe, Babylon, China, all over.

And doesn't it make the world of maths cool? You wanna see a dexterous mathematical mind? Chat with an old tradie that thinks, simultaneously, in meters, feet, inches, and mm - and uses gravity for verticals and the horizon and water-tubes for horizontals. Or just guesses based on life-long practical experience.

(We needed a common system to take maths further than walls and jambs, and we have, with a flawed, messy crazy mixed-up melange of ideas. And haven't we come far together?)

And imagine a world where the disciplines truly mix? A world unquantifiable... (that must terrify you, and send you into jingoistic nautilus spirals, hehe).

Supafreak Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 3:20pm

gsco wrote:
I personally lose my place as having equal opportunity and (particularly political) rights with all other individuals in this country.

I see a particular group of people elevated above not just me but all other groups of people and individuals not in that elevated group.

I see individuals in that elevated group as having more political power and influence to me and being able to be more heard and make more representations to parliament than me and all other non-elevated individuals.

I see myself in an institutionally unfair and discriminated against position which is not in the spirit of our great land, the lessons of history, or our western heritage, particularly what was fought for in the enlightenment and French Revolution.

I see a situation starting to resemble political systems of the Middle Ages in which particular groups of people were elevated above the general population, with unfair, discriminatory and prejudiced results.

I must say gsco you have blown my mind with your reply. I don’t know if you’re serious or not . If you’re serious then thanks for openly expressing your feelings and thoughts and maybe think about a surfing holiday off the grid .

gsco Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 3:49pm

No worries supa. But I’m sorry, it’s just not fair - in fact it’s legally institutionalised discrimination and goes against everything western civilisation stands for and has fought to prevent - that anyone, no matter who they are, be given legally codified (in the constitution) privileged and elevated rights in society compared to anyone else, no matter who they are. We are all born equal.

truebluebasher Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 3:48pm

Ok! Qldurrz apologized for Dementor Voldemort.
Now we deliver The Voice in all it's Glory!

1st Female Indigenous LP
1962 1st Australian Stereo LP & Australian Made by Crest Records Hi Fi.
Who here could've Imagined that...5 years before 1967 Referendum!
Don't that beat all ~ Dedicated to the Dreamers!
14th Aug 2023 Last original copy sold for $500 (Already 60 in the cue for next sale)
https://www.discogs.com/release/9477375-Georgia-Lee-Georgia-Lee-Sings-Th...
https://aso.gov.au/titles/music/georgia-lee-sings-the-blues/

https://www.womenaustralia.info/leaders/biogs/WLE0095b.htm

harrycoopr Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 3:53pm

harrycoopr wrote:
gsco wrote:
I personally lose my place as having equal opportunity and (particularly political) rights with all other individuals in this country.

I see a particular group of people elevated above not just me but all other groups of people and individuals not in that elevated group.

I see individuals in that elevated group as having more political power and influence to me and being able to be more heard and make more representations to parliament than me and all other non-elevated individuals.

I see myself in an institutionally unfair and discriminated against position which is not in the spirit of our great land, the lessons of history, or our western heritage, particularly what was fought for in the enlightenment and French Revolution.

I see a situation starting to resemble political systems of the Middle Ages in which particular groups of people were elevated above the general population, with unfair, discriminatory and prejudiced results.

This costco... this is why yr a fool

This is pure Trumpism... pure "poor fella me whitey" pure "our system is the greatest so assimilate everyone else" pure crap sorry to say

harrycoopr Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 3:55pm

gsco wrote:
No worries supa. But I’m sorry, it’s just not fair - in fact it’s legally institutionalised discrimination and goes against everything western civilisation stands for and has fought to prevent - that anyone, no matter who they are, be given legally codified (in the constitution) privileged and elevated rights in society compared to anyone else, no matter who they are. We are all born equal.

It's an ADVISORY body u turnip... pls stop now before embarrassing yourself any further

Supafreak Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 3:59pm

gsco wrote:
No worries supa. But I’m sorry, it’s just not fair - in fact it’s legally institutionalised discrimination and goes against everything western civilisation stands for and has fought to prevent - that anyone, no matter who they are, be given legally codified (in the constitution) privileged and elevated rights in society compared to anyone else, no matter who they are. We are all born equal.

But have we all been treated equally ?

andy-mac Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 3:57pm

gsco wrote:
I personally lose my place as having equal opportunity and (particularly political) rights with all other individuals in this country.

I see a particular group of people elevated above not just me but all other groups of people and individuals not in that elevated group.

I see individuals in that elevated group as having more political power and influence to me and being able to be more heard and make more representations to parliament than me and all other non-elevated individuals.

I see myself in an institutionally unfair and discriminated against position which is not in the spirit of our great land, the lessons of history, or our western heritage, particularly what was fought for in the enlightenment and French Revolution.

I see a situation starting to resemble political systems of the Middle Ages in which particular groups of people were elevated above the general population, with unfair, discriminatory and prejudiced results.

So communism is the solution then we are all equal...
Heaps of people in Oz being in an elevated group due to their wealth, power and influence.
Groups that have access to pollies, IPA, BCA, MCA etc etc.....
Geez even Alan Joyce giving out members lounge has more privileges than you or me...

harrycoopr Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 4:00pm

Supafreak wrote:
gsco wrote:
No worries supa. But I’m sorry, it’s just not fair - in fact it’s legally institutionalised discrimination and goes against everything western civilisation stands for and has fought to prevent - that anyone, no matter who they are, be given legally codified (in the constitution) privileged and elevated rights in society compared to anyone else, no matter who they are. We are all born equal.

But are we all treated equally ?

Supa yr a lot more civil than I am but ive been dealing with this reverse racist shit for years..."legally institutionalised discrimination"... sorry but u cant rationally engage with these kinds of Bevans... it's impossible. They live in an alternative universe of which they are the centre.

andy-mac Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 4:01pm

gsco wrote:
No worries supa. But I’m sorry, it’s just not fair - in fact it’s legally institutionalised discrimination and goes against everything western civilisation stands for and has fought to prevent - that anyone, no matter who they are, be given legally codified (in the constitution) privileged and elevated rights in society compared to anyone else, no matter who they are. We are all born equal.

House of Lords?

indo-dreaming Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 4:21pm

Fliplid wrote:
@indo and Supa is that list of membership for the Voice fact or idea? This article would suggest it is just someones idea

“iii. the Parliament shall, subject to this Constitution, have power to make laws with respect to matters relating to the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice, including its composition, functions, powers and procedures.”

“But clause (iii) clearly empowers future governments to fiddle with the Voice's composition, powers and procedures. So a hostile future government could, say, reduce the membership of the Voice to one person, and park that person in a windowless room in Canberra without an internet connection, or take every recommendation from the Voice and file it straight into the recycling.”

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-03/voice-referendum-vote-on-92-words...

I reckon most of what is being said, from both sides, is pure speculation in an effort to sway the vote one way or the other, and it is easy to just jump on board with the argument that aligns with one’s belief, regardless of any truth to that argument.

In a nutshell, the composition of the Voice, it’s allocated funding etc haven’t even been decided yet and when it comes to deciding, it will be up to the parliament to vote and decide how it is done.

Yep 100% i mentioned that in my post, although many articles from mainstream media have thrown out structure and numbers as if this is what it will be.

While yes this structure/design like number of seats etc is based on ideas from USFTH and from Langton report, its actually up to the government to decided.

Thats why its such a sign up now figure out the detail latter deal, and that detail isnt minor its actually really important aspects, so many un answered question's that won't be answered until after the vote in the unlikely event the result is a yes that is.

indo-dreaming Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 4:43pm

gsco wrote:
I personally lose my place as having equal opportunity and (particularly political) rights with all other individuals in this country.

I see a particular group of people elevated above not just me but all other groups of people and individuals not in that elevated group.

I see individuals in that elevated group as having more political power and influence to me and being able to be more heard and make more representations to parliament than me and all other non-elevated individuals.

I see myself in an institutionally unfair and discriminated against position which is not in the spirit of our great land, the lessons of history, or our western heritage, particularly what was fought for in the enlightenment and French Revolution.

I see a situation starting to resemble political systems of the Middle Ages in which particular groups of people were elevated above the general population, with unfair, discriminatory and prejudiced results.

gsco wrote:
No worries supa. But I’m sorry, it’s just not fair - in fact it’s legally institutionalised discrimination and goes against everything western civilisation stands for and has fought to prevent - that anyone, no matter who they are, be given legally codified (in the constitution) privileged and elevated rights in society compared to anyone else, no matter who they are. We are all born equal.

100%

Realistically in some ways its about a 50 to 60 years step backwards, but like we are in a parallel universe.

I actually find if bizarre and baffling that so called progressives are the ones wanting a new separation, that in a sense would undo so much progress made.

Thank god that it seems that the majority of Australians are viewing things as we are though.

Supafreak Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 4:40pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
gsco wrote:
No worries supa. But I’m sorry, it’s just not fair - in fact it’s legally institutionalised discrimination and goes against everything western civilisation stands for and has fought to prevent - that anyone, no matter who they are, be given legally codified (in the constitution) privileged and elevated rights in society compared to anyone else, no matter who they are. We are all born equal.

100%

Realistically in some ways its about a 50 to 60 years step backwards, but like we are in a parallel universe.

I actually find if bizarre and baffling that so called progressives are the ones wanting a new separation, that in a sense would undo so much progress made.

Thank god that tit seems that the majority of Australians are viewing things as we are though.

@indo and how will your life change if the yes vote does get up ? How different will your life be in 5 years time ? What will you have lost in your standard of living and what opportunities will be lost for you because of FNP having a voice to parliament that is an advisory body not a law making body .

indo-dreaming Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 4:45pm

@Supafreak

Why are you asking the exact same questions, this has all been already answered in detail before

Supafreak Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 4:59pm

harrycoopr wrote:
Supafreak wrote:
gsco wrote:
No worries supa. But I’m sorry, it’s just not fair - in fact it’s legally institutionalised discrimination and goes against everything western civilisation stands for and has fought to prevent - that anyone, no matter who they are, be given legally codified (in the constitution) privileged and elevated rights in society compared to anyone else, no matter who they are. We are all born equal.

But are we all treated equally ?

Supa yr a lot more civil than I am but ive been dealing with this reverse racist shit for years..."legally institutionalised discrimination"... sorry but u cant rationally engage with these kinds of Bevans... it's impossible. They live in an alternative universe of which they are the centre.

@harry , I understand your frustration and you come on here to vent that frustration. I liked some of blowins input on some topics but sometimes he really got carried away with shit and was over the top . I’m certainly not going to tell you how to reply, I like a lot of the things you’ve brought to the discussion and if you’ve gotta express yourself the way you do so be it . I also like some of the things sypkan brings up and I’m really interested in reading most people’s thoughts, ideas and responses. It’s a forum with a wide variety of interesting characters and I like it warts and all . I do get frustrated sometimes also and at those times I just don’t post for awhile. Hope you’re getting some waves wherever you are . I’m moving back to indo in 6 months time , taking a few years off and just going to live a simple life for awhile and look after my health and make the most of surfing while I’m still young enough……can’t wait .

Supafreak Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 5:01pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
@Supafreak

Why are you asking the exact same questions, this has all been already answered in detail before

Exact same questions ? Really ? Think I must be getting dementia. Can you tell me page number please.

indo-dreaming Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 5:39pm

Supafreak wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
@Supafreak

Why are you asking the exact same questions, this has all been already answered in detail before

Exact same questions ? Really ? Think I must be getting dementia. Can you tell me page number please.

Okay to be fair not exact question as in words but pretty much the same premise especially this idea of lost that's been dealt with, the question about effect on me is irrelevant, its about much bigger more important aspects.

These important aspects have been highlighted on the last two pages.

GSCO has highlighted the morally wrong and democratically wrong aspects and Frog on the other page has highlighted how its more really a vehicle for activist understanding these points is important.

The article i cut and pasted yesterday also highlights other very important aspects.

Its also been highlighted many times how its just not true that indigenous people dont have a voice or aren't consulted, not that anyone would really care if the voice was in legislation only.

The problem of course is putting it in the constitution, and how it would be used and abused.

Again see article i cut and pasted yesterday.

Basically its all been said before.

Fliplid Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 5:40pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
Thats why its such a sign up now figure out the detail latter deal, and that detail isnt minor its actually really important aspects, so many un answered question's that won't be answered until after the vote in the unlikely event the result is a yes that is.

.

After more than 100 years since the Constitution was written there’s still no details about tax rates in it, only the power to make laws to tax people, surely that’s got to tell you something about how it all works. Working out details for different laws and agencies happens regularly so it isn’t as big a deal as it is being made out to be, actually, it’s just the normal functioning of government. As you say, it’s up to Parliament to decide so there’s no slight of hand in play here

Basically, this idea of no details about the Voice is nothing more than a Furphy

truebluebasher Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 5:42pm

How about we stick to here & now > Finest example Oz money & people can buy!
Don't knock yerselves out...We know exactly how long & what cost any Voice Motion will take.
Oz bureaucracy has a way of embarrassing ourselves either way but all ignore the sad truth.
This be the real underlying reason we can't progress as a Nation.
Wind down yer windows & Watch the World pass us by...

$450m AEC Example..
18 July 2023 ~ Rich White Aussie Technocrats download [YES] V [NO] Toilet paper Rolls.
11th Sept AEC First Nation Booklet Deadline (2 weeks before Aborigines Vote on 25th Sept)
D Day + $450m + 100,000 Staff AEC only managed 7 First Languages Booklets of promised 20.
Ya see folks...AEC can provide copies direct to the Indian Moon Landing but not to our Mob.

Also notice...outside this tiny box...not one Aussie could give a shit about that! Ask! Look around! Huh!

17th Sept Already 6 days too late ...AEC can only manage 8 / 20 (1999) Language Count.
https://www.aec.gov.au/About_AEC/Translated_information/#download
Crew may recall tbb's Reffo Table of Price matching & why it's now essential reading...
tbb 10 Aug : https://www.swellnet.com/comment/911664
1999 in 2023 Reffo = $10/vote > 20/20 First Nation got Booklets
2023 Reffo = $20/vote = 8/20 First Nation got Booklets
(It's that simple!)

Voice can only work if Govt halves the communication cost.
All can see Internet / Computers / Fax / Copiers / Mobile Devices have doubled the cost! (But How?)

Now need $1b + 88 days to reach 20 / 250 Mob Languages to agree to any motion of any Voice!
Q : Just how many motions are Aussies expecting The Voice to reach each year?
A : 2023 We can't even afford 8 languages of Minimum 20 of 250 Languages of 800 dialects.
Reckon it would cost Govt / AEC $5b to inform All first Nation to vote for first Voice Motion.
We all know technology is not the real villain...but if we remove the Dead Wood!
[yes] [no] All agree to that being the Elephant in the Room!

Example : 2023 Swiss Reffo/s Cost $45.3m / 10m Votes or $4.50 vote (vs) Oz - AEC $20/vote
Swiss Reffo cost is roughly locked at 1972 Oz Price in 2023 (How can they do that & not us?)
All here know how...need not ask non voting tbb to answer that...bloody well refuse to answer!

tbb thinks once Oz can match universal Vote cost then & only then will we naturally afford change!
AEC scrutinizing Dick Pics is the biggest obstacle to change & why Oz ain't singing with one Voice!

andy-mac Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 5:44pm

Supafreak wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
Supafreak wrote:
gsco wrote:
No worries supa. But I’m sorry, it’s just not fair - in fact it’s legally institutionalised discrimination and goes against everything western civilisation stands for and has fought to prevent - that anyone, no matter who they are, be given legally codified (in the constitution) privileged and elevated rights in society compared to anyone else, no matter who they are. We are all born equal.

But are we all treated equally ?

Supa yr a lot more civil than I am but ive been dealing with this reverse racist shit for years..."legally institutionalised discrimination"... sorry but u cant rationally engage with these kinds of Bevans... it's impossible. They live in an alternative universe of which they are the centre.

@harry , I understand your frustration and you come on here to vent that frustration. I liked some of blowins input on some topics but sometimes he really got carried away with shit and was over the top . I’m certainly not going to tell you how to reply, I like a lot of the things you’ve brought to the discussion and if you’ve gotta express yourself the way you do so be it . I also like some of the things sypkan brings up and I’m really interested in reading most people’s thoughts, ideas and responses. It’s a forum with a wide variety of interesting characters and I like it warts and all . I do get frustrated sometimes also and at those times I just don’t post for awhile. Hope you’re getting some waves wherever you are . I’m moving back to indo in 6 months time , taking a few years off and just going to live a simple life for awhile and look after my health and make the most of surfing while I’m still young enough……can’t wait .

Where ya basing yourself Supa?
Sounds like a good plan!!!

harrycoopr Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 5:44pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
gsco wrote:
I personally lose my place as having equal opportunity and (particularly political) rights with all other individuals in this country.

I see a particular group of people elevated above not just me but all other groups of people and individuals not in that elevated group.

I see individuals in that elevated group as having more political power and influence to me and being able to be more heard and make more representations to parliament than me and all other non-elevated individuals.

I see myself in an institutionally unfair and discriminated against position which is not in the spirit of our great land, the lessons of history, or our western heritage, particularly what was fought for in the enlightenment and French Revolution.

I see a situation starting to resemble political systems of the Middle Ages in which particular groups of people were elevated above the general population, with unfair, discriminatory and prejudiced results.

gsco wrote:
No worries supa. But I’m sorry, it’s just not fair - in fact it’s legally institutionalised discrimination and goes against everything western civilisation stands for and has fought to prevent - that anyone, no matter who they are, be given legally codified (in the constitution) privileged and elevated rights in society compared to anyone else, no matter who they are. We are all born equal.

100%

Realistically in some ways its about a 50 to 60 years step backwards, but like we are in a parallel universe.

I actually find if bizarre and baffling that so called progressives are the ones wanting a new separation, that in a sense would undo so much progress made.

Thank god that it seems that the majority of Australians are viewing things as we are though.

No worries Pauline

Fliplid Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 5:48pm

@gsco Industry lobbyists have direct access to parliamentarians and exert influence well above what the ‘one person one vote’ mantra implies they should have

Every day these lobbyists have a level of access to parliamentarians that isn’t available to ordinary Australian’s, and make representations to those parliamentarians that are in their clients interests whether they suit Australia’s or not and many times policies based on those representations are implemented by parliament. They might not have the Constitutional right but I’d say it is definitely an implied right that is granted with gusto

Now we’re being told that it is against all ideas of fairness that one group of people aren’t allowed the same access that is being afforded to these industry lobbyists.

harrycoopr Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 5:50pm

andy-mac wrote:
Supafreak wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
Supafreak wrote:
gsco wrote:
No worries supa. But I’m sorry, it’s just not fair - in fact it’s legally institutionalised discrimination and goes against everything western civilisation stands for and has fought to prevent - that anyone, no matter who they are, be given legally codified (in the constitution) privileged and elevated rights in society compared to anyone else, no matter who they are. We are all born equal.

But are we all treated equally ?

Supa yr a lot more civil than I am but ive been dealing with this reverse racist shit for years..."legally institutionalised discrimination"... sorry but u cant rationally engage with these kinds of Bevans... it's impossible. They live in an alternative universe of which they are the centre.

@harry , I understand your frustration and you come on here to vent that frustration. I liked some of blowins input on some topics but sometimes he really got carried away with shit and was over the top . I’m certainly not going to tell you how to reply, I like a lot of the things you’ve brought to the discussion and if you’ve gotta express yourself the way you do so be it . I also like some of the things sypkan brings up and I’m really interested in reading most people’s thoughts, ideas and responses. It’s a forum with a wide variety of interesting characters and I like it warts and all . I do get frustrated sometimes also and at those times I just don’t post for awhile. Hope you’re getting some waves wherever you are . I’m moving back to indo in 6 months time , taking a few years off and just going to live a simple life for awhile and look after my health and make the most of surfing while I’m still young enough……can’t wait .

Where ya basing yourself Supa?
Sounds like a good plan!!!

For sure... do it while yr young cos getting older ain't no joke... look at my grumpy old man antics

harrycoopr Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 5:51pm

Fliplid wrote:
@gsco Industry lobbyists have direct access to parliamentarians and exert influence well above what the ‘one person one vote’ mantra implies they should have

Every day these lobbyists have a level of access to parliamentarians that isn’t available to ordinary Australian’s, and make representations to those parliamentarians that are in their clients interests whether they suit Australia’s or not and many times policies based on those representations are implemented by parliament. They might not have the Constitutional right but I’d say it is definitely an implied right that is granted with gusto

Now we’re being told that it is against all ideas of fairness that one group of people aren’t allowed the same access that is being afforded to these industry lobbyists.

Yr on the money Fliplid... why cant these Proud Boys see this???

southernraw Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 5:58pm

Supafreak wrote:
gsco wrote:
I personally lose my place as having equal opportunity and (particularly political) rights with all other individuals in this country.

I see a particular group of people elevated above not just me but all other groups of people and individuals not in that elevated group.

I see individuals in that elevated group as having more political power and influence to me and being able to be more heard and make more representations to parliament than me and all other non-elevated individuals.

I see myself in an institutionally unfair and discriminated against position which is not in the spirit of our great land, the lessons of history, or our western heritage, particularly what was fought for in the enlightenment and French Revolution.

I see a situation starting to resemble political systems of the Middle Ages in which particular groups of people were elevated above the general population, with unfair, discriminatory and prejudiced results.

I must say gsco you have blown my mind with your reply. I don’t know if you’re serious or not . If you’re serious thanks for openly expressing your feelings and thoughts and maybe think about a surfing holiday off the grid .

Plus one Supa. Hope you're doing well @gsco. Always enjoyed our correspondence.
Definitely reckon a surf trip or some time away from the worlds problems (perceived or real) is always a good way to reset, and see the bigger picture.
The only real problems are the ones right in front of us to deal with each day, the rest is all opinions and heresay...powers greater than us anyway so may as well go surfing and just have the odd bit of banter and pontification on SN.
Take care mate.

indo-dreaming Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 5:58pm

Fliplid wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
Thats why its such a sign up now figure out the detail latter deal, and that detail isnt minor its actually really important aspects, so many un answered question's that won't be answered until after the vote in the unlikely event the result is a yes that is.

.

After more than 100 years since the Constitution was written there’s still no details about tax rates in it, only the power to make laws to tax people, surely that’s got to tell you something about how it all works. Working out details for different laws and agencies happens regularly so it isn’t as big a deal as it is being made out to be, actually, it’s just the normal functioning of government. As you say, it’s up to Parliament to decide so there’s no slight of hand in play here

Basically, this idea of no details about the Voice is nothing more than a Furphy

I do understand thats often how it works on constitution things, but on this issue for most people that approach just isn't going to cut it, even if this was just about an advisory body it still wouldn't be enough.

Which of course for anyone that has read the USFTH one page, other pages, related docs and then listened to what those involved have been saying in the past, voice is only one aspect of a much bigger activist picture.

gsco Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 6:05pm

Fliplid, lobby groups aren't permanent advisory bodies legally codified in the constitution and given public taxpayer funding.

And FNPs already have equal freedom, rights and opportunity to set up their own lobby groups.

Equal treatment is fundamental to what it means to be Australian. The Voice is directly at odds with this basic tenet of western civilisation.

Supafreak Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 6:07pm

@andy-mac , my base will be lembongan, 1 month trips away east and west with mates 3 or 4 times a year. Getting a C317 visa which gives me 2 years initially. Haven’t planned past that yet . … @ harrycoopr I can relate to the grumpy old man antics .

Supafreak Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 6:14pm

gsco wrote:
Fliplid, lobby groups aren't permanent advisory bodies legally codified in the constitution and given public taxpayer funding.

And FNPs already have equal freedom, rights and opportunity to set up their own lobby groups.

Equal treatment is fundamental to what it means to be Australian. The Voice is directly at odds with this basic tenet of western civilisation.

FNP are playing catch up on the equal treatment and they might just have some great ideas at how they can lift themselves up to achieve this .

harrycoopr Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 6:22pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
Fliplid wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
Thats why its such a sign up now figure out the detail latter deal, and that detail isnt minor its actually really important aspects, so many un answered question's that won't be answered until after the vote in the unlikely event the result is a yes that is.

.

After more than 100 years since the Constitution was written there’s still no details about tax rates in it, only the power to make laws to tax people, surely that’s got to tell you something about how it all works. Working out details for different laws and agencies happens regularly so it isn’t as big a deal as it is being made out to be, actually, it’s just the normal functioning of government. As you say, it’s up to Parliament to decide so there’s no slight of hand in play here

Basically, this idea of no details about the Voice is nothing more than a Furphy

I do understand thats often how it works on constitution things, but on this issue for most people that approach just isn't going to cut it, even if this was just about an advisory body it still wouldn't be enough.

Which of course for anyone that has read the USFTH one page, other pages, related docs and then listened to what those involved have been saying in the past, voice is only one aspect of a much bigger activist picture.

Scared aint ya Pauline

harrycoopr Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 6:24pm

gsco wrote:
Fliplid, lobby groups aren't permanent advisory bodies legally codified in the constitution and given public taxpayer funding.

And FNPs already have equal freedom, rights and opportunity to set up their own lobby groups.

Equal treatment is fundamental to what it means to be Australian. The Voice is directly at odds with this basic tenet of western civilisation.

100% wrong

Supafreak Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 6:31pm

I don’t know why some people believe the voice is divisive, it has united hanson and abbott and didn’t one get the other jailed years ago ? Now there’s a marriage made in heaven .

harrycoopr Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 6:57pm

Supafreak wrote:
I don’t know why some people believe the voice is divisive, it has united hanson and abbott and didn’t one get the other jailed years ago ? Now there’s a marriage made in heaven .

Lol...classic. Old Onion Abbott. Gee these rightwingers are an embarrassing lot. Love to see the voice get up and watch all th Paulines on here fret about their equality disappearing... what a laff. In the meantime I'll stay grumpy i guess

indo-dreaming Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 7:04pm

gsco wrote:
Fliplid, lobby groups aren't permanent advisory bodies legally codified in the constitution and given public taxpayer funding.

And FNPs already have equal freedom, rights and opportunity to set up their own lobby groups.

Equal treatment is fundamental to what it means to be Australian. The Voice is directly at odds with this basic tenet of western civilisation.

There's no point to being indigenous lobby groups because they already have much more than that in things like NIAA and Coalition peaks and of course a Minister of indigenous affairs.

They are actually already the most represented, recognised and tax payer funded group in Australia

Fliplid Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 7:13pm

gsco, Whether they, the industry lobbyists, are permanent advisory bodies or not, they still have a level of access to parliamentarians that far exceeds other Australians which I thought, maybe mistakenly, was your original point, that being, one group of people having more rights and influence than others which as you say is against the idea of equal rights.

Seems a bit flippant though to single out the Voice as tearing down the tenants of western civilization and not the other lobbyists who, for example, are enthusiastically convincing government to buy billions of dollars worth of weapons

Although not directly taxpayer funded, the cost of hiring a lobbyist is quite likely booked as an expense so a tax deduction is given which is a loss of tax revenue, for what benefit? Effectively the tax payer is losing tax revenue so a company or industry can have privileged access to government, ongoing, in perpetuity. I’ve no idea what a lobbyist is worth but probably not cheap and there’s plenty of them

I agree with what you say about FNPs rights and opportunities etc, I have indigenous family who are doing okay. However I still think there is scope for assistance to some in marginalized communities. If a young kid grows up in a dysfunctional household or community with no proper care or guidance, what kind of life can they reasonably expect? Do we let them rot or try and lift them up?

Personally I think the Voice shouldn’t be in the Constitution but there still needs to be something to push along the process of getting those that need assistance onto an even footing or, as they say, closing the gap, The whole debate is focusing on the wrong things and there is too much bullshit flying around, from both sides, which is a sign that it hasn’t been thought out properly.

andy-mac Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 7:21pm

Supafreak wrote:
@andy-mac , my base will be lembongan, 1 month trips away east and west with mates 3 or 4 times a year. Getting a C317 visa which gives me 2 years initially. Haven’t planned past that yet . … @ harrycoopr I can relate to the grumpy old man antics .

Unreal mate!!
Enjoy.... lots of waves for you.

harrycoopr Sunday, 17 Sep 2023 at 7:38pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
gsco wrote:
Fliplid, lobby groups aren't permanent advisory bodies legally codified in the constitution and given public taxpayer funding.

And FNPs already have equal freedom, rights and opportunity to set up their own lobby groups.

Equal treatment is fundamental to what it means to be Australian. The Voice is directly at odds with this basic tenet of western civilisation.

There's no point to being indigenous lobby groups because they already have much more than that in things like NIAA and Coalition peaks and of course a Minister of indigenous affairs.

They are actually already the most represented, recognised and tax payer funded group in Australia

No Pauline...u talkin about whiteys

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