The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
This idiot believes he’s prime minister material. https://x.com/murraywatt/status/1702546234182173167?s=46&t=5RczxwAfzXe7h...
harrycoopr wrote:gsco wrote:seeds wrote:gsco has outed himself. Talk of communist takeover and now God.
gsco has outed himself as one of those stupid people who got his hopes up with the ALP. Never again.
gsco has realised that the ALP has its imagination and policy responses stuck squarely in socialist ideology and themes in which everything in life is a communist struggle of oppressed vs oppressors:
- dividing Australia into ethic, gender, racial, etc, groups being oppressed by white male supremacy and colonial invaders and murderers (for instance The Voice)
- workers supposedly being exploited by corporations
- wages supposedly not keeping up with productivity gains
- labour supposedly losing its slice of the business income pie
- evil corporate profits and price gauging supposedly being the cause inflation
- economics supposedly is a conspiracy to entrench wealthy interests, with the productivity commission, RBA, federal treasury, ACCC, etc, all part of it
- etcgsco has outed himself as a believer in our western civilisation and heritage in all its glory, and as being conservative, economically centrist, and very anti socialism.
actually gsco was always like this until he came back to living in Australia at the start of covid, and while stuck in covid lockdown started to get exposed to all the Australian (and other) socialist propaganda bureaus like the ABC, Guardian Australia, The Monthly, Quarterly Essay, SBS, Jacobin, etc. He then started doubting our western heritage and started expressing these doubts.
But gsco has now come full circle after realising just how deeply socialism has penetrated the collective Australian psyche and how badly it is hijacking major issues in western society like social justice, climate change, economics, free speech, freedom, democracy, gender and LGBTIQA+ issues...etc...the list is endless.
gsco realises that the Australian population is in a socialist driven anti western civilisation slumber, and he even fell for it for a while like most of the population has - but never again.
Here we go again!! More ridiculous assertions that need calling out... all your "supposedly's", conspiracy theories aside, touch on real issues affecting ppls lives. Minority groups seeking equality, calling out abuses of power, getting the rich to pay their fair share, protecting workers against being ripped off. We see these issues everyday on the news, everywhere around the world. The lefts struggle is always against injustice and greed which the right try to maintain. Corruption occurs everywhere, both sides yes, but overall where theres riches theres ppl trying to exploit and protect it to the detriment of others. The commonsense and obviousness of justice somehow escapes many ppl...
The left is the most corrupt, destructive, murderous and oppressive of all of history.
It has pulled off some of the largest scale mass slaughtering of humans this planet has ever witnessed.
It has also pulled off the most large scale confiscation of personal assets and wealth the planet has ever seem. In every case it become the largest and most destructive parasitical, tyrannical leech the world has ever seen that has drained all the wealth and fruits of the population’s toils into the coffers of the small ruling governments, oppressing the population into living below the poverty line and in servitude.
It has left all countries that it got its hands on as impoverished, backwards, and ruined, 100s of years wasted in murder and poverty, and 100s of years behind in economic, social, cultural, political, etc, development. Many countries it got its hand on are still to this day struggling to develop and break out of its grip.
And that’s only the beginning of the history and indeed tragedy and scourge of the practical reality and real-world outcomes of the socialist and communist left in humanity.
Freedom, equality of opportunity, constitutional democracy, the rule of law and private property rights, etc - everything western civilisation stands for - have been the most successful recipe and the only system of human organisation that has led to prosperity of the people and relative equality.
Ignore the lessons of history at your own peril.
gsco wrote:harrycoopr wrote:gsco wrote:seeds wrote:gsco has outed himself. Talk of communist takeover and now God.
gsco has outed himself as one of those stupid people who got his hopes up with the ALP. Never again.
gsco has realised that the ALP has its imagination and policy responses stuck squarely in socialist ideology and themes in which everything in life is a communist struggle of oppressed vs oppressors:
- dividing Australia into ethic, gender, racial, etc, groups being oppressed by white male supremacy and colonial invaders and murderers (for instance The Voice)
- workers supposedly being exploited by corporations
- wages supposedly not keeping up with productivity gains
- labour supposedly losing its slice of the business income pie
- evil corporate profits and price gauging supposedly being the cause inflation
- economics supposedly is a conspiracy to entrench wealthy interests, with the productivity commission, RBA, federal treasury, ACCC, etc, all part of it
- etcgsco has outed himself as a believer in our western civilisation and heritage in all its glory, and as being conservative, economically centrist, and very anti socialism.
actually gsco was always like this until he came back to living in Australia at the start of covid, and while stuck in covid lockdown started to get exposed to all the Australian (and other) socialist propaganda bureaus like the ABC, Guardian Australia, The Monthly, Quarterly Essay, SBS, Jacobin, etc. He then started doubting our western heritage and started expressing these doubts.
But gsco has now come full circle after realising just how deeply socialism has penetrated the collective Australian psyche and how badly it is hijacking major issues in western society like social justice, climate change, economics, free speech, freedom, democracy, gender and LGBTIQA+ issues...etc...the list is endless.
gsco realises that the Australian population is in a socialist driven anti western civilisation slumber, and he even fell for it for a while like most of the population has - but never again.
Here we go again!! More ridiculous assertions that need calling out... all your "supposedly's", conspiracy theories aside, touch on real issues affecting ppls lives. Minority groups seeking equality, calling out abuses of power, getting the rich to pay their fair share, protecting workers against being ripped off. We see these issues everyday on the news, everywhere around the world. The lefts struggle is always against injustice and greed which the right try to maintain. Corruption occurs everywhere, both sides yes, but overall where theres riches theres ppl trying to exploit and protect it to the detriment of others. The commonsense and obviousness of justice somehow escapes many ppl...
The left is the most corrupt, destructive, murderous and oppressive of all of history.
It has pulled off some of the largest scale mass slaughtering of humans this planet has ever witnessed.
It has also pulled off the most large scale confiscation of personal assets and wealth the planet has ever seem. In every case it become the largest parasitical, tyrannical leech the world has ever seen that has drained all the wealth and fruits of the population’s toils into the coffers of the small ruling governments, oppressing the population into living below the poverty line and in servitude.
It has left all countries that it got its hands on as impoverished, backwards, and ruined, 100s of years wasted in murder and poverty, and 100s of years behind in economic, social, cultural, political, etc, development.
And that’s only the beginning of the history and indeed tragedy and scourge of the practical reality and real-world outcomes of the socialist and communist left in humanity.
Freedom, equality of opportunity, constitutional democracy, the rule of law and private property rights, etc - everything western civilisation stands for - have been the most successful recipe and the only system of human organisation that has led to prosperity of the people and relative equality.
Ignore the lessons of history at your own peril.
Lol... what happened to yr god?
The worst atrocities have been commited by the right u nong... socalled leftists like Stalin Pol Pot etc are nothing more than fascist dictator authoritarians who have nothing to do with the real left. Pls get an education b4 spouting off yr nonsense
Yes exactly harry, you’re correct, that’s precisely the story of the socialist left in humanity:
A mythical, imaginary, fairytale, promised utopia whose real wold outcome was always tyranny, dictatorship, mass slaughter, poverty, backwardness, wealth confiscation, human suffering, and ruin.
Australia toy with socialist themes at your own risk.
but what.. self-righteous sermons are ok?
Pfft. Go for a surf. Replenish some of them vital fluids.
People that argue that left is good and right is bad or vice versa are failing to understand (or have forgotten) the metaphor of right wing/left wing. It is about balance. Like a bird or a plane, Left and right are equally important. It’s about balance and constant communication and adjustments. Too little or too much to EITHER side and a crash landing is imminent.
This attempt to ‘rebrand’ Stalin, Pol Pot etc into something else other than radical left mass murderers is sickening. They are the prime evidence of Marxism’s biggest flaws - eventually you run out of oppressors. It’s all happy days while you’re taking some strangers house or sending an unknown someone into the gulags. But in the never ending struggle against the oppressors you eventually turn onto your close allies, friends and family as there is no one else left.
The evidence of this is overwhelming, it’s incredible how many are willing to ignore it.
Good informative post i saw today
"These points clearly explain the perils of the Voice proposal and, by implication, the blatant dishonesty of many of the Yes proponents including Albanese, Dreyfus, Burney, Pearson and Langton.
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1. Power
It is sometimes argued that the voice is merely advisory, that the executive and parliament can ignore it if they choose.
This paints an incomplete picture.
Indeed, as prominent Yes campaigners Megan Davis and George Williams have stated, “The voice to parliament is a structural reform. It is a change to the structure of Australia’s public institutions and would redistribute public power via the Constitution, Australia’s highest law.”
Access to government is power. If you can convey your view to the minister, the Reserve Bank of Australia or any other bureaucrat, you have power.
The voice also has supernormal funding that comes directly from the taxpayer.
Other parties do not have an analogous voice. Farmers, for example, have no constitutionally enshrined taxpayer-funded voice.
This is analogous to funding and listening to only one side of a court case. It is clear what the outcome will be. While that one side simply may “advise” the judge or the jury, it has clear power because of the position it is put in.
2. Treaty
Anthony Albanese has claimed that people are not voting on treaty or reparations. In a superficial sense, this is correct.
The Yes camp often highlights that Queensland is pursuing a treaty even without the voice. But this is a misdirection.
The voice plausibly increases the chance of treaty and, with it, reparations. This is a logical consequence of the one-page Uluru Statement from the Heart, which states: “Makarrata (treaty) is the culmination of our agenda”.
Williams and Davis have stated: “Without the Indigenous voice to parliament, a treaty is vulnerable.” Treaty could involve “reparations”, as suggested in the Uluru dialogue documents.
These might take the form of a proportion of gross domestic product.
-
3. Litigation
A basic legal doctrine is that executive (that is, government) action can be reviewed.
This often involves claims that the decision-maker failed to consider relevant matters when making a decision.
If the voice comes into being, its representations become “relevant” considerations. The government can disagree with the submissions. But it must consider them, and it may feel compelled to adopt them.
The voice could lodge complaints that the decision-maker failed to consider its submissions. This is credible even if the case is doomed to fail and even if the government did consider its submissions.
This is because the voice gets government money and its members do not personally lose from failed litigation. This is not to say that it will happen but that it could happen. The government failed to include safeguards to prevent it.
4. Scope
A common misconception is that the voice makes representations on, or can engage in, only matters that differentially impact Indigenous Australians. Federal Attorney-General Mark Dreyfus stated this in his second-reading speech. However, the voice is not so limited.
The plain text of the amendment wording says the voice can engage “on matters relating to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples”.
It is not restricted to matters that differently, especially, or differentially impact Indigenous Australians. It covers all matters. The amendment text has been the subject of careful and long deliberation.
The Prime Minister rejected attempts to limit it. This evinces a clear legislative intent for the voice to engage with any matter whatsoever. The High Court could not restrict the voice when the legislative intent is so clear.
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5. Details
It is sometimes asserted that voters need not know the details before they vote on the voice.
The Yes campaign points to section 51 of the Constitution, arguing that the enumerated powers are broad and came into being without legislation.
However, this is not an apt analogy. Indeed, it might suggest that asking for legislation details or safeguards is appropriate. But legislation cannot limit the power of the voice once it is enshrined in the Constitution.
The fact some existing powers might be too broad is not an argument for additional broad powers. As indicated, the government could have limited the voice’s scope or powers but it chose not to.
-
6. Impact
There are claims the voice involves long-overdue recognition for Indigenous Australians in the Constitution. It certainly does entail recognition. But it goes significantly further. It gives access and funding to the unelected voice body.
As indicated above, the voice is not merely advisory.
It does increase the probability of a treaty or reparations. It could hypothetically slow government. Thus, the referendum is not merely about recognition.
So where does this leave us?
The issue is that there are myths, inaccuracies and simplifications circulating about the referendum. Accusations of misinformation fly fast and loose, and have lost all meaning. There is a lot of spin.
What is clear, however, is that voters must consider the voice’s full suite of powers and implications. Voters might like these. They might not. But voters are entitled to be fully informed.
Peter Swan is a professor and Mark Humphery-Jenner an associate professor in the University of NSW Business School."
;)
https://m.
&pp=ygUPcGluayBmbG95ZCBkb2dz frog wrote:Perhaps a core weakness of The Voice concept (an advisory committee) and Yes campaign that seems to be glossed over in the debate is that the concept is likely to be a substantial overpromise? Months ago, I listened to an emotional MP's speech talking of how, at last, through The Voice we would be able to close the gap, fix health, housing, alcoholism, economic disadvantage etc. In her mind, it seemed to have magic powers. As a listener I just thought "wow" that is not the real world.
At the various organisations I have worked at forms of staff consultive committees have been helpful here and there but have not been able to solve the most challenging issues facing the workplace.
At a national level, if a party proposed setting up a broadly based advisory committee as THE game changing solution to deeply complex areas of policy and program implementation such as:
- energy policy
- housing affordability
- gambling addiction
- flood mitigation
- refugee immigrant disadvantage
would the population be inspired to applaud such a move and have high expectations for good outcomes? Would they campaign in the streets for the advisory committee concept and discuss it in glowing terms most nights on the ABC for months?. Or would there be a degree of skepticism?If struggling, unprofitable company XYZ proposed in a high profile slickly marketed announcement to the market and shareholders that they had finally found the solution to their troubles - a new broadly based staff advisory committee would be set up to advise the Board and the Executive - I can guarrantee that the share price would plummet simply due to it being seen as a massive overpromise and evidence that the Board had no answers and were lost at sea.
The Voice concept is aiming to tackle challenges that, in various forms, exist throughout the world that everwhere have proven some of the hardest societal issues to solve. If advisory committees were the big lever, the big answer to socio-economic disadvantage in its most entrenched forms, the evidence would be everywhere.
"Nothing else has worked so let us try this" does not cut it as a sound justification for doing something in government, business, sport and our personal lives unless the "something" can stand on its own two feet. It has not been a reassurring message to the Australian people.
Barrack Obama won the Presidency and somehow a Nobel Peace Prize on the "Hope and Change" message. With all the powers of being POTUS and a lot of goodwill and support, he struggled to make much difference over 8 years. Ideas are easy. Implementation is the challenge.
That is one reason why people want more detail - they sense a substantial overpromise and under delivery hidden behind the Yes messaging, which is no good for anyone and especially FNP. Unrealistic expectations can create credibility issues which in turn make the advice given less effective and implementation harder if The Voice gets up. The campaign has created a huge weight of expectations on the committee. There is the saying - "To every complex problem, there is a simple solution and it is usually wrong".
totally!
beyond a vibe and some kind of religious allegiance...
(and a totally slick out of touch marketing campaign)
the public has essentially been offered nothing to vote on
"Nothing else has worked so let us try this"
totally doesn't cut it
sypkan wrote:frog wrote:Perhaps a core weakness of The Voice concept (an advisory committee) and Yes campaign that seems to be glossed over in the debate is that the concept is likely to be a substantial overpromise? Months ago, I listened to an emotional MP's speech talking of how, at last, through The Voice we would be able to close the gap, fix health, housing, alcoholism, economic disadvantage etc. In her mind, it seemed to have magic powers. As a listener I just thought "wow" that is not the real world.
At the various organisations I have worked at forms of staff consultive committees have been helpful here and there but have not been able to solve the most challenging issues facing the workplace.
At a national level, if a party proposed setting up a broadly based advisory committee as THE game changing solution to deeply complex areas of policy and program implementation such as:
- energy policy
- housing affordability
- gambling addiction
- flood mitigation
- refugee immigrant disadvantage
would the population be inspired to applaud such a move and have high expectations for good outcomes? Would they campaign in the streets for the advisory committee concept and discuss it in glowing terms most nights on the ABC for months?. Or would there be a degree of skepticism?If struggling, unprofitable company XYZ proposed in a high profile slickly marketed announcement to the market and shareholders that they had finally found the solution to their troubles - a new broadly based staff advisory committee would be set up to advise the Board and the Executive - I can guarrantee that the share price would plummet simply due to it being seen as a massive overpromise and evidence that the Board had no answers and were lost at sea.
The Voice concept is aiming to tackle challenges that, in various forms, exist throughout the world that everwhere have proven some of the hardest societal issues to solve. If advisory committees were the big lever, the big answer to socio-economic disadvantage in its most entrenched forms, the evidence would be everywhere.
"Nothing else has worked so let us try this" does not cut it as a sound justification for doing something in government, business, sport and our personal lives unless the "something" can stand on its own two feet. It has not been a reassurring message to the Australian people.
Barrack Obama won the Presidency and somehow a Nobel Peace Prize on the "Hope and Change" message. With all the powers of being POTUS and a lot of goodwill and support, he struggled to make much difference over 8 years. Ideas are easy. Implementation is the challenge.
That is one reason why people want more detail - they sense a substantial overpromise and under delivery hidden behind the Yes messaging, which is no good for anyone and especially FNP. Unrealistic expectations can create credibility issues which in turn make the advice given less effective and implementation harder if The Voice gets up. The campaign has created a huge weight of expectations on the committee. There is the saying - "To every complex problem, there is a simple solution and it is usually wrong".
totally!
beyond a vibe and some kind of religious allegiance...
(and a totally slick out of touch marketing campaign)
the public has essentially been offered nothing to vote on
"Nothing else has worked so let us try this"
totally doesn't cut it
Totally agree
flollo wrote:This attempt to ‘rebrand’ Stalin, Pol Pot etc into something else other than radical left mass murderers is sickening. They are the prime evidence of Marxism’s biggest flaws - eventually you run out of oppressors. It’s all happy days while you’re taking some strangers house or sending an unknown someone into the gulags. But in the never ending struggle against the oppressors you eventually turn onto your close allies, friends and family as there is no one else left.
The evidence of this is overwhelming, it’s incredible how many are willing to ignore it.
Idiot
Anyone who attempts to tie the sick crazed psychopathic aspirations of authoritarian nutjobs to the actual left is actually more than an idiot
with the voice, and issues more widely...
labor, and 'the left', in its contemporary incarnation, just seem to be living in the past
for better or worse... the electorate are now an information rich bohemoth in an infirmation rich environment... where any idea, concept, party or individual, can be researched and justified - whichever way one endeavours to reseaech...
despite the cynicism, and 'misinformation' cries from the left about this development when challenges are put forth... this is the new game, ...and the left are struggling beyond belief to adjust to this new reality... for well over a decade now!
in reality, the internet has been an incredible tool for a true 'democracy' process to develope
it may be most inconvenient for leaders and participants that everything is out there for anyone to look up, but it is what it is...
as adam12's fave twitter queen (ronnisalt) said last week...
the yes camp, and labor, must have known how dutton and co. would campaign against the voice - ffs they have had enough resources and minions!
...yet they seem to have had absolutely no strategies or plan whatsoever to answer to their opponents...
abosolutely zero!
it truly is mindblowing!
their response, their absolute lack of pragmatism
and, their absolute lack of an actual product to sell!
basesix wrote:but what.. self-righteous sermons are ok?
Pfft. Go for a surf. Replenish some of them vital fluids.
Moron
gsco wrote:Yes exactly harry, you’re correct, that’s precisely the story of the socialist left in humanity:
A mythical, imaginary, fairytale, promised utopia whose real wold outcome was always tyranny, dictatorship, mass slaughter, poverty, backwardness, wealth confiscation, human suffering, and ruin.
Australia toy with socialist themes at your own risk.
Thats why the left is always struggling u dope...
flollo wrote:This attempt to ‘rebrand’ Stalin, Pol Pot etc into something else other than radical left mass murderers is sickening. They are the prime evidence of Marxism’s biggest flaws - eventually you run out of oppressors. It’s all happy days while you’re taking some strangers house or sending an unknown someone into the gulags. But in the never ending struggle against the oppressors you eventually turn onto your close allies, friends and family as there is no one else left.
The evidence of this is overwhelming, it’s incredible how many are willing to ignore it.
I guess youd call Pootin a leftie too... get real bud
harrycoopr wrote:flollo wrote:This attempt to ‘rebrand’ Stalin, Pol Pot etc into something else other than radical left mass murderers is sickening. They are the prime evidence of Marxism’s biggest flaws - eventually you run out of oppressors. It’s all happy days while you’re taking some strangers house or sending an unknown someone into the gulags. But in the never ending struggle against the oppressors you eventually turn onto your close allies, friends and family as there is no one else left.
The evidence of this is overwhelming, it’s incredible how many are willing to ignore it.
Idiot
Anyone who attempts to tie the sick crazed psychopathic aspirations of authoritarian nutjobs to the actual left is actually more than an idiot
Thanks
The problem is all u knowitall commentators are tying the Voice to Albo and the left. It's apolitical you knobs!! It's up to Aboriginal people to work out how it operates, organises etc... that's the whole point. That's whats empowering about it. If the blackfellas can't get it to work so be it... but I have faith that a people who lived in some of the harshest conditions on earth for millennia can work something out. That why Albos so frustrated... the right have hijacked it as a political football... fucken outrageous and disgusting tactics for a desperate bunch of bandits. The Voice is for Aboriginal people by Aboriginal people...get that into yr fukn thick heads... ya morons
The hard ground is fast approaching but it’s not too late to pull up…
it is albo's baby
it's his job to sell it...
fail
the yes camp more widely...
5+years of development, 350 million bucks... and still no product... taking not even a model to the electorate...
at best it looks like ill-preparedness and incompetence
at worst it looks cagey and bait and switch
if you don't put something out there... the vacuum fills itself....
such is nature
you...
abuse and contradictions
winning!
did you read vj's link pages back?
good info in there for the likes of you...
not winning!
"Anyone who attempts to tie the sick crazed psychopathic aspirations of authoritarian nutjobs to the actual left is actually more than an idiot"
not really...
did you miss the the whole covid fiasco?
you unaware of the twitter files?
bidens (and now albo's) ministries of truth?
you've missed the whole obsessive narrative control through a now 6 year long episode of tds?
'the left' has been burning goodwill and any semblance of true liberalism for quite some time
but you just carry on coops...
all flabberghasted and accusational and shit
sypkan wrote:it is albo's baby
it's his job to sell it...
fail
the yes camp more widely...
5+years of development, 350 million bucks... and still no product... taking not even a model to the electorate...
at best it looks like ill-preparedness and incompetence
at worst it looks cagey and bait and switch
if you don't put something out there... the vacuum fills itself....
such is nature
you...
abuse and contradictions
winning!
did you read vj's link pages back?
good info in there for the likes of you...
not winning!
OMG. I gave up on u a long time ago sikpan... pls don't engage me with yr lunatic ravings and misinformation... it's hard enuf keeping it simple for these other misinformed and misinforming nongs
Supafreak wrote:This idiot believes he’s prime minister material. https://x.com/murraywatt/status/1702546234182173167?s=46&t=5RczxwAfzXe7h...
Odious individual....
"misinformation"
haha
there it is again... the cries!
the squawks... the squeals...
bahahahahahahahaha
actually coops, it was I that gave up on you... you have the political understandings and maturity of a 14 year old girl...
more winnie cooper than harry cooper
I've avoided your... err... 'arguments' ...because they could disassembled in a paragraph...
but 'the left' needs 14 year old girls like you... oh so much!
so carry on champ, i really actually don't want you to fail
some of us come here in the hope the camp will take on some feedback and wake the fuck up
there's clearly several labor members and minions on here, the hope is they'll take feedback to the bunker...
but it seems the bunker is just way too bunkered!
funkered
You guys keep living in yr delusional world. DuttoSpud should've backed it cos it's what the Aboriginal people want... he says he cares pffft. The right have created yet another shitfight. This country wont be a mature republic until the likes of sikpan indo etc grow up themselves. But no, their delusions and deceptions continue to fester.
Very sad state of affairs. Hopefully the blackfellas get what they want...eventually.
harrycoopr wrote:cos it's what the Aboriginal people want...
Not the T.O.'s I speak with in Arnhem Land and Cape York.
Sypkan 3 WinnieCoopr 0
I've been purposely staying out of this thread as it is just another case of us and them, yes and no division. I know many T.O's up here that are well and truly in the No camp.
What so many on here just don't understand is that FNP are no different to the rest of us. The needs and views are all different nation wide. Those that live in the city, the bush, the desert, the coast, the islands, the North South East and West. Everyone is different. It's not a clear cut Yes or No.
Not even gonna ask if we Qldurrz have to apologize for our Dementor Dutto...just get on with it tbb!
"Sorry 'bout tbb's obsessive-compulsive voting disorder mucking up both of Dutto's mandated boycotted Reffos!"
burleigh wrote:Sypkan 3 WinnieCoopr 0
Maturity
fitzroy-21 wrote:I've been purposely staying out of this thread as it is just another case of us and them, yes and no division. I know many T.O's up here that are well and truly in the No camp.
What so many on here just don't understand is that FNP are no different to the rest of us. The needs and views are all different nation wide. Those that live in the city, the bush, the desert, the coast, the islands, the North South East and West. Everyone is different. It's not a clear cut Yes or No.
Many TOs huh...how many? How many others say Yes? No different to the rest of us... except they dont experience structural and personal racism. Go chat to the Michael Longs and Adam Goodes of this country... go chat to the "many" TOs who support it. Geezuz
truebluebasher wrote:Not even gonna ask if we Qldurrz have to apologize for our Dementor Dutto...just get on with it tbb!
"Sorry 'bout tbb's obsessive-compulsive voting disorder mucking up both of Dutto's mandated boycotted Reffos!"
The ONLY reason the Spud doesn't support it is bcos it's his only political chance against Albo. Sickening. The guy's a fullyflegded FW.
https://thenewdaily.com.au/opinion/2023/09/16/michael-pascoe-elon-musk-v... “ It has been extraordinary to watch the initial public enthusiasm for the Voice referendum fall away under the barrage of misinformation, fear-mongering and straight lies from the No camp. Generating fear and doubt is the recommended tactic for No volunteers.
The sharpest decline for the Voice started with Peter Dutton’s inevitable political decision to nail the LNP’s colours to the No mast, but the murky role that social media has played and continues to play, has increased divisiveness and fuelled confusion. “……….. “ Australia’s local right reliably mimics whatever the ratbag end of American politics does next, meaning we can expect to see the tools they’ve used to oppose the Voice become standard practice – lies and conspiracy theories constantly fed into the echo chambers, Australians going down the American path of constant division. “
@harrycoopr, question for you.
Have you spent time on outstations and/or communities in FNP's homelands? The Likes of Arnhem Land/Cape York/Torres Strait Islands. And I'm talking weeks, not a day trip.
fitzroy-21 wrote:@harrycoopr, question for you.
Have you spent time on outstations and/or communities in FNP's homelands? The Likes of Arnhem Land/Cape York/Torres Strait Islands. And I'm talking weeks, not a day trip.
This qualification is pointless... yes I've spent time, yes i have friends, yes i have travelled widely and listened, yes ive spent months in some communities, yes ive written papers and academic stuff published across the world... but these qualifications are pointless and if u can't see that then i cant help you further.
The Uluru Statement from the Heart asked for a Voice...many many Aboriginal people backed it. Dutto played politics thus shafting any chances. Blackfellas in general get fukd over once again. Whats not to understand? Are u ppl really this stupid?????
harrycoopr wrote:How many others say Yes?
The No say it's because they fear it will create further division and more government intervention.
Now this is the sad part. The some of the Yes, say Yes because....they have been told to..........
fitzroy-21 wrote:I've been purposely staying out of this thread as it is just another case of us and them, yes and no division. I know many T.O's up here that are well and truly in the No camp.
What so many on here just don't understand is that FNP are no different to the rest of us. The needs and views are all different nation wide. Those that live in the city, the bush, the desert, the coast, the islands, the North South East and West. Everyone is different. It's not a clear cut Yes or No.
sure seems to be that good ol' country / city divide running through this issue amongst blackfellas...
just like every other issue... where the inner city latte set, have a totally different perspective / priority to the big wide, sparsely populated, rural / remote populations...
who would've thought the city dwelling, often well to do, blackfellas would have different thougts and priorities to those living in some of the (still!) harshest conditions in the country?
just like the whitey city / country divide
the yes camp are going hard with this 'trumpism' angle...
when really, it could just be that, just like trump's opportunistic political strategy.... it is off the charts rising inequality that fuels such a differing range in experiences and priorities... and said political opportunism...
neoliberalism baby! ...its a scourge...
trump is the sympton, not the cause...
unless you're full of orange man bad rage and derangement
and as to US style politics infecting our ecosystem.... you don't think albo and co. have gone for a full on small target 'basement biden' tactic?
you don't think yes camp have gone full obsessive narrative (no detail) control?
you don't think the yes camp haven't indulged in dehumanising and the belittling of the 'other' for having different perspectives and priorities?
no ugly tribalism?
and as to 'misinformation' ... ffs ... c'mon man!
it takes two to tango...
politics 101: circa 2016: version 2023
Correct Harry,
The question was irrelevant to the goodwill and kind-heartedness of your efforts, but whatever Fitzroy's point was... it's for what?? I read it as an antagonistic slip of the tongue.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the referendum that is getting closer by the day. The day where the decent folk of Australia with compassion and empathy will vote YES for a profound changing of the guard for the betterment of FNP and Australia as a whole.
The FNP are brilliant people. How resilient are they?! Resilient! Ha! Look what they’ve endured by the ruthless rule of the English occupation … unbelievable.. Just unfathomable!! And the Aboriginal people are standing proud still, my god they are strong man!!
But for sure they are hurting and if they get the nod with this vote, I’m hoping they will gain strength for their people that they can get their race together to flourish in this modern world if that’s what they want to do.
For all the antagonists, it’s interesting to hear of your views and only you know yourselves why you put those unfair and unproven ideas out there into forums like this one, but I believe that when the time comes to vote and you guys are in the voting booth. You’ll say “Stuff it!” I’m voting YES. You can be anonymous, that’s cool, and only you know what you have written in the box was YES in full capitals.
And after, just maybe the Aboriginal people will show you what compassion and empathy really is and may even improve your lives to make you better people with a real understanding and meaning of life on this planet in this universe there’s a better way to live for you people.
"...Australia’s local right reliably mimics whatever the ratbag end of American politics does next, meaning we can expect to see the tools they’ve used to oppose the Voice become standard practice – lies and conspiracy theories constantly fed into the echo chambers, Australians going down the American path of constant division..."
constantly fed into echo chambers?
or constantly fed into the no detail vacuum yes camp created?
both both... same same...
if ya wanna control the narrative... ya gotta fill the vacuum... with... er... sumthin...
'democracy dies in darkness'
'sunlight is the best disinfectant'
as frog pointed out way back, they've played a hard small target game
and, albo has made absolutely no effort to take the public with him on this journey of big difficult decisions and country changing situations... stuff that is probably for the better... but ya had better explain yourself...
as hawke and keating did, back in their era of dranatic reform, explained and articulated with skill and conviction
not darkness, sleight of hand and obfuscation
harrycoopr wrote:basesix wrote:but what.. self-righteous sermons are ok?
Pfft. Go for a surf. Replenish some of them vital fluids.Moron
was talking to General Ripper's comment directly above my comment, harry, not yours.
But it hardly matters in this thread of attrition. We all know the posters who 'win' these tedious pissing contests. Well put again, Reform.
I’m voting yes , not because I voted for labor but because FNP deserve a go at helping themselves and I believe it’s a respectful thing to do for their benefit not mine . Shove the politics where the sun doesn’t shine . FNP need to be listened to on plenty of issues, bush fire season coming up comes to mind . The details come if the yes vote gets up and the parliament decides what the finer details will be . Why is this so hard for some to understand ?
Reform wrote:Correct Harry,
The question was irrelevant to the goodwill and kind-heartedness of your efforts, but whatever Fitzroy's point was... it's for what?? I read it as an antagonistic slip of the tongue.It has absolutely nothing to do with the referendum that is getting closer by the day. The day where the decent folk of Australia with compassion and empathy will vote YES for a profound changing of the guard for the betterment of FNP and Australia as a whole.
The FNP are brilliant people. How resilient are they?! Resilient! Ha! Look what they’ve endured by the ruthless rule of the English occupation … unbelievable.. Just unfathomable!! And the Aboriginal people are standing proud still, my god they are strong man!!
But for sure they are hurting and if they get the nod with this vote, I’m hoping they will gain strength for their people that they can get their race together to flourish in this modern world if that’s what they want to do.
For all the antagonists, it’s interesting to hear of your views and only you know yourselves why you put those unfair and unproven ideas out there into forums like this one, but I believe that when the time comes to vote and you guys are in the voting booth. You’ll say “Stuff it!” I’m voting YES. You can be anonymous, that’s cool, and only you know what you have written in the box was YES in full capitals.
And after, just maybe the Aboriginal people will show you what compassion and empathy really is and may even improve your lives to make you better people with a real understanding and meaning of life on this planet in this universe there’s a better way to live for you people.
Nicely said Reform ...i wish i had yr patience. But when sikpan talks of the yes camp using Trumpism, amongst all the other total crap ive read here,well i for one am just dumbstruck by such stupidity. I hope yr right man ... that these ppl will touch base with reality. But as long as they see it as divisive, rather than the divisiveness stemming from No and politiking and themselves well there aint much hope i feel. It's like Price's comment...just so utterly stupid you can't believe it's real. I'd have a lot more respect for ppl who just admitted they don't want Aboriginal people to access any power or whatever. But the reasons ive read on here are just so stupid and confounding... but i guess what can you expect from antivaxxers and climate deniers and their ilk
you don't read real good do ya mr. academic papers?
(confirmation bias runs deep with this one...)
Yep Harry, time to step back, you're just feeding into their game because the bantering between you and them has been going on for quite a few pages and days it seems, and they seem to thrive off of it. That must be exhausting for you.
There's really not much discussion about this whole thing it’s just vote YES! Vote them in. Pretty simple, very simple actually.
Everyone deserves a voice. Your voice is heard on this forum and they are spruiking their voice on this forum. They love to hear their voice LOUD AND CLEAR but are unwilling to agree to the rights of a marginalised race sitting right next to us in the same room.. FFS!
Q. Will the detractors engage in conversation with the aboriginal people if the opportunity arises? Will they be open to discussion with them and be proud if they voted no for the Aboriginal voice to be nullified? Or will they be proud and sit easy if the next time they engage with an aboriginal person they can proudly say that they voted YES. Because there won’t be much of a discussion for them if in the negative.
BTW Why do you associate antivaxxers with this? And that’s a pretty derogative term. A lot of people did not vaccinate because of many many sound reasons and it is offensive to pronounce otherwise.
Wishing you well, all for a great cause, thanks
sypkan wrote:you don't read real good do ya mr. academic papers?
(confirmation bias runs deep with this one...)
"the yes camp are going hard with this 'trumpism' angle..." yr words mr. dumbfuk
In fact dikpan, yr so full of shit i can smell u from here
sypkan wrote:"...Australia’s local right reliably mimics whatever the ratbag end of American politics does next, meaning we can expect to see the tools they’ve used to oppose the Voice become standard practice – lies and conspiracy theories constantly fed into the echo chambers, Australians going down the American path of constant division..."
constantly fed into echo chambers?
or constantly fed into the no detail vacuum yes camp created?
both both... same same...
if ya wanna control the narrative... ya gotta fill the vacuum... with... er... sumthin...
'democracy dies in darkness'
'sunlight is the best disinfectant'
as frog pointed out way back, they've played a hard small target game
and, albo has made absolutely no effort to take the public with him on this journey of big difficult decisions and country changing situations... stuff that is probably for the better... but ya had better explain yourself...
as hawke and keating did, back in their era of dranatic reform, explained and articulated with skill and conviction
not darkness, sleight of hand and obfuscation
Albo has always said it is not about him, not about Labor, not about politics... it's about Aboriginal people asking for a voice and asking us to join them in this voice...
Whats not to understand sikpan?? You confect all this other nonsense and crap that has nothing to do with the issue... the only vacuum is in yr head. Albo said they'll...the blackfellas... will fill in the detail, all in good time... small steps lead to big journeys. Yr not really this stupid r u sikpan?
https://m.
Supafreak wrote:I’m voting yes , not because I voted for labor but because FNP deserve a go at helping themselves and I believe it’s a respectful thing to do for their benefit not mine . Shove the politics where the sun doesn’t shine . FNP need to be listened to on plenty of issues, bush fire season coming up comes to mind . The details come if the yes vote gets up and the parliament decides what the finer details will be . Why is this so hard for some to understand ?
Because it's not so simple a scenario as The Voice simply being something designed to help FNPs help themselves:
- it's very heavily political. In public life, everything is politics and politics is everything. And both sides of The Voice debate have been hijacked by the worst elements of their extreme political ideologies, both socialist and fascist. These elements are equally at play in both the ALP and LNP and their associated and aligned media outlets and thing tanks
- it's a question of confidence and belief in our society, culture and political and legal institutions as they are or if they are somehow defective and the problem. Is the gap even at all due to failure of our democracy and or our political system's ability to "listen" to FNPs like The Voice assumes? Or is the gap due to something else? Is one open to the possibility that the personal decisions and choices of FNPs play any part at all in their outcomes in life?
- it's a question of whether there is even a valid division of Australian society into "them" the FNPs and "us" the colonial invaders and murderers. The Voice assumes that this division is valid. But I just don't see how that division exists anymore in Australian society. Australia is multicultural and diverse. FNPs are not one single homogenous group of people.
- and so on, the list is large...
It's not some happy little fairy tale of simply helping FNPs. The Voice goes to the very heart of our history, colonialism, our political and legal institutions, political ideology, ideas of victim mentality vs freedom and personal responsibility, of the true causes of the gap, the unknown long-term impact and outcomes of The Voice, and many other considerations, etc...
@sypkan , am I correct in that you will be voting neither yes or no ?
@gsco , have you read the design of the voice ?
Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x
The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.
Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.
Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.
The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.
Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??
Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28
References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28