The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

bluediamond started the topic in

Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

Reform Monday, 18 Sep 2023 at 8:46pm

burleigh wrote:
Reform wrote:
Supafreak wrote:
https://fb.watch/n7HWJ2O8o9/?mibextid=v7YzmG

Beautifully scripted interview, She says that so clearly and concisely, a lovely example of a great human and guess what?....She's indigenous! You have to come over and join with us 'detractors'. Its not too late to clear your conscience and jump that wall into a promising world where there is hope, passion, goodwill, compassion and aspirations for peace.

Scripted alright. How many hours did they spend rehearsing this piece of dribble?

Of course it was scripted and well rehearsed but brilliant and truthful and from a supporting YES voting Aboriginal woman.

burleigh Monday, 18 Sep 2023 at 8:50pm

Jelly Flater wrote:
“ You’re confused with the Yes Campaign. “

- um… no…

This bit … “ I’m voting no because my good friend who is a FNP is voting no along with majority of his FNP family and friends. “

This is you admitting the reason you are doing it is simply because a friend is doing it… along with the majority of their friends and family.

- connoisseur of confusion ;)

Is your brain Jelly?

Supafreak Monday, 18 Sep 2023 at 8:52pm

burleigh wrote:
Supafreak wrote:
burleigh wrote:
Supafreak wrote:
burleigh wrote:
Supafreak wrote:
burleigh wrote:
Supafreak wrote:
Supafreak wrote:
Big turn out for those that don’t know. https://x.com/cookersozstyle/status/1703317001551401091?s=46&t=5RczxwAfz... meanwhile at one of the yes rallies

Big difference

All white people. This is no different during Covid getting vaccinated “to protect Nan” playing on peoples emotions and being good people.

Why do you say it’s all white people ? Do you believe no fnp are there ? Who do you believe organisers the rallies and speaks at them ? Please don’t say the labor party .

No idea and I don’t really care. It’s just cringy as fuck

Exactly Burleigh and that’s why you’re voting no because you don’t really care and don’t wanna know . It’s your choice.

No, I’m voting no because my good friend who is a FNP is voting no along with majority of his FNP family and friends.

But I guess you only care about the FNP that vote yes

I’m going with what the majority of FNP is asking for Burleigh, that’s my choice .

You actually have no idea what they want. None. I don’t either, but what I do know is that 80% is bullshit.

They simply want and need to be heard burleigh a simple request to have input into decisions that directly affect their lives . All in the hope that they along with the government of the day can improve their circumstances around health , education and housing. Please don’t assume that I know nothing of what they’re asking for . Plus they are asking for recognition which when finally given may just lift everyones spirits , well not everyone , spud will be pissed .

Supafreak Monday, 18 Sep 2023 at 8:54pm

Question for you Burleigh , why are vegans so angry ?

Jelly Flater Monday, 18 Sep 2023 at 9:04pm

Haha

“ Is your brain Jelly? “

- kind of like… ummm…
If you had a brain you’d be able to decide for yourself how to vote, and not just because others are doing so ;)

seeds Monday, 18 Sep 2023 at 9:12pm

This is your stated reason Burliegh.

No, I’m voting no because my good friend who is a FNP is voting no along with majority of his FNP family and friends.

Pretty limited survey, I must say.

harrycoopr Monday, 18 Sep 2023 at 9:12pm

harrycoopr wrote:
So all you No voters agree with Thorpe's assertions that Sovereignty has not been ceded therefore nothing less than Sovereign recognition and reparations can be accepted. Seems yr Mundine's starting to trip up all over the place with his treaties!! Yes is Reconciliation in action... No is either against Aboriginal people's claims or in favour of their Sovereign claims... can't sit on the fence boys unless you like the feeling

This is for u to mull over burley... seems u need some stimulation... but don't bust yr brain bud

Reform Monday, 18 Sep 2023 at 9:16pm

Burleigh,
April 1982, storm surf at Burleigh, I’d guess the swell direction had quite a bit of east in it because it was breaking further down the line and away from the point, I’m not from there but I was working there for 4 months from Jan - April and the point pumped the whole time, so I was a regular out there, I loved the point!
This day was a Sunday, 6 feet, fairly solid, no-one but me out there as my mate kept getting washed back from trying to get out at the cove. And although it was a SE wind, the barrels were open which I relished in one after the other in clockwork rotation. Why am I saying this, ha! I’m not actually sure, oh yeah..sometimes one just has to make those steps and venture into a progressive environment. The voice recognition is progressive in the fact that it is a change for them, It places them onto a playing field which will empower them. They know how to deal with that, they are advocates of the strata levels adhering to the hierarchy system within their clan. I have utmost respect for that. It’s a good thing Burleigh. No is unkind Burleigh. YES is kind.

I focus Monday, 18 Sep 2023 at 9:51pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
I focus wrote:
Supafreak wrote:
Spud will be pulling his hair out …..oh wait a minute …. I can see a little sweetner coming up to pull wazza into line . I’m not sure if they both are trying to out confuse each other or if its just a matter of let’s baffle everybody with BS . Spud changes his mind daily on what he’s going to do and wazza is just trying to cover all bases with job offers . https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-17/warren-mundine-backs-treaty-proce... https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/leading-no-campaigners-at-odd... and where’s JP ? Is she backing her NO teammate ?

Mundine nuance was telling he advocates for empowering Aboriginals and their aspiration while Price plays politics telling her white audience exactly what they want to hear in other words Price treats them as useful idiots.

I don't agree with Mundine on many aspects but do wonder if he chooses to play the conservative side of politics because that's where change really has to come from?

Mundine wants treaties and a date change worst nightmare for a few here I would think.

Ha ha how ironic "useful idiots"

Yes voters are the definition of useful idiots, happy to be used by activist for their agenda and sign up to something that they dont even know the detail on.

Indo note Mundine wont support the Voice because he thinks it wont do anything...read that again, its at complete odds with your own version of the future if it gets up.

Mundine is a rationalist he knows the system very well.

Also note Mundine wants to go far far further than treaties and date change including up to 80% of Australia being under Aboriginal control.

You have been had seriously.

Reform Monday, 18 Sep 2023 at 9:56pm

Got a black magic woman
Got a black magic woman
I've got a black magic woman
Got me so blind, I can't see
That she's a black magic woman
She's trying to make a devil outta me
Don't turn your back on me, baby
Don't turn your back on me, baby
Yes, don't turn your back on me, baby
Stop messing 'round with your tricks
Don't turn your back on me, baby
You just might pick up my magic sticks
Got your spell on me, baby
You got your spell on me, baby
Yes, you got your spell on me, baby
Turning my heart into stone
I need you so bad, magic woman
I can't leave you alone

burleigh Monday, 18 Sep 2023 at 10:37pm

Supafreak wrote:
burleigh wrote:
Supafreak wrote:
burleigh wrote:
Supafreak wrote:
burleigh wrote:
Supafreak wrote:
burleigh wrote:
Supafreak wrote:
Supafreak wrote:
Big turn out for those that don’t know. https://x.com/cookersozstyle/status/1703317001551401091?s=46&t=5RczxwAfz... meanwhile at one of the yes rallies

Big difference

All white people. This is no different during Covid getting vaccinated “to protect Nan” playing on peoples emotions and being good people.

Why do you say it’s all white people ? Do you believe no fnp are there ? Who do you believe organisers the rallies and speaks at them ? Please don’t say the labor party .

No idea and I don’t really care. It’s just cringy as fuck

Exactly Burleigh and that’s why you’re voting no because you don’t really care and don’t wanna know . It’s your choice.

No, I’m voting no because my good friend who is a FNP is voting no along with majority of his FNP family and friends.

But I guess you only care about the FNP that vote yes

I’m going with what the majority of FNP is asking for Burleigh, that’s my choice .

You actually have no idea what they want. None. I don’t either, but what I do know is that 80% is bullshit.

They simply want and need to be heard burleigh a simple request to have input into decisions that directly affect their lives . All in the hope that they along with the government of the day can improve their circumstances around health , education and housing. Please don’t assume that I know nothing of what they’re asking for . Plus they are asking for recognition which when finally given may just lift everyones spirits , well not everyone , spud will be pissed .

They? How many of “them” Supa? Is it really 80%? What if it’s 60% or 49%.

We have no idea. Absolutely none. Yet you share videos of 99.9% of white people marching the streets as your argument to show support.

truebluebasher Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 12:04am

Media keep stating that Polls keep plummeting for [YES]

Under the Microscope the Polls seem to have bottomed out.
Some groups are pulling the [YES] Vote back up...
It is possible the [NO] Camp Triple Flip are seeing [YES > NO] voters switch back > [Yes]
Seems like [NO] have gotta put socks in the Big Mouths of Big Heads before they lose ground.
STFU each time they open their mouths ...more shit oozes out...[No] voters vomit.

Check it out...(Note polls vary by dates & consistency but their is a hint of [YES] Comeback!
Otherwise...why would 100% non enrolled neutral tbb share such at this point of time.
Mostly coz tbb couldn't agree with Media's kickin' of [YES] camp...think they've earned a break.

Think we can at least run a count ...coz tbb reckons [Yes] have found a second wind! We'll see...
That's all this is...just a break in proceedings...can all go back to kicking the fuck outta [Yes]...Ok!

*Peak [NO]
Various Polls
28 Aug - 1st Sept (*53%) (Dutto Reffo-Drop) > 48% > 50% > 49% (Mundine Treaty) > 0%

Binary Poll
30th Aug -4th Sept (*61%) (Dutto Reffo-Drop) 59% > 57% (Mundine Treaty) > 0%

States *No (Peak)
21st Aug Tas *53%
30th Aug -4th Sept NSW *61% / Vic *55% / Qld *65%
6th-9th Sept NSW 56% / Vic 51% / Qld 61% + WA *61% / SA *59 / Tas 44%

{Poll Anomaly}
Note: Guardian State / Polls (Graph) Has a wider (6-10%) buffer.
Consider above one off 4% Point drops may not be enough to stop the slide.
These Graphs show a continual slide toward [NO]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2023_Australian_In...

Hard [NO] < @ > [YES]
Peak power flip (July-Aug)...now settles a little
[No] Is slowing to near it's Peak coz data is now slowly flowing back toward [YES]!

Parties
(Wiki) Polls end @ Dutto Brain Fart...
2wk old wiki Party Polls present the slide continuing...to peak [NO]
30 Aug -5th Sept [LNP] *87% Other *80% ALP *43% Green *29%

{Poll Anomaly}
Guardian Polls present newer data...reflecting Wiki Pop Vote
https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2023/sep/14/indigenous-voice-t...

Early Sept -Dutto kicks own goal % toward Yes
Other ( Down ) Greens ( Slight kick ) ALP (Kick)+ [LNP] (Kick)
Certainly seems as if approx (3%) [LNP] + [ALP] Walked away from Dutto's 2nd reffo

Age Groups
18-34yrs Biggest fall thru July (Levels out) Aug : [YES] is now Rising 3-5%
35-54yrs Biggest fall to July slowing thru Aug > (Dutto / Mundine Ice bergs)
55+ Biggest fall thru July slowing up thru Aug > (Dutto / Mundine Ice Bergs)

Green Ant Bully's sting in the tail...

Firstly : "Don't read into the Polls as much as manic bipolar tbb does...it's not healthy!"

"Dutto's own goal kick flipped young Libs into orbiting around the [YES] Camp!"
"Jacicinta's Foul mouth put her in the Sin Bin!"
"Mundine's 2nd own Goal for [NO] Shifts the Goal Posts closer!"
"Albo's brings on his $368b Subs for the Voice shootout!"
Still anyone's game!

tbb worked hard to make a game of it...
Runnin' outta yellow / red cards > just runnin' the clock down!
Recap :
If one pauses & leans to the left & squints > Data shows a slow-pause-slight bump toward Yes.
But if ya keep leaning to the right it keeps moving faster toward [NO]
Gives ya an idea of which way lazy commentators like leanin'!

tbb is calling it... King Loser / Comeback Special [YES] Oh! [YES] Please!

Supafreak Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 5:18am

@burleigh , I’m starting work at 5.30 this morning and it’s a long day ahead so sorry I can’t come out and play today but I’m sure someone will entertain you . I’ve looked but I can’t find the videos of the yes campaign with 99.9% white folk . I did however post a video of some no supporters in Melbourne . Have a good day Burleigh and if ya don’t know vote no .

indo-dreaming Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 7:01am

I focus wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
I focus wrote:
Supafreak wrote:
Spud will be pulling his hair out …..oh wait a minute …. I can see a little sweetner coming up to pull wazza into line . I’m not sure if they both are trying to out confuse each other or if its just a matter of let’s baffle everybody with BS . Spud changes his mind daily on what he’s going to do and wazza is just trying to cover all bases with job offers . https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-17/warren-mundine-backs-treaty-proce... https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/leading-no-campaigners-at-odd... and where’s JP ? Is she backing her NO teammate ?

Mundine nuance was telling he advocates for empowering Aboriginals and their aspiration while Price plays politics telling her white audience exactly what they want to hear in other words Price treats them as useful idiots.

I don't agree with Mundine on many aspects but do wonder if he chooses to play the conservative side of politics because that's where change really has to come from?

Mundine wants treaties and a date change worst nightmare for a few here I would think.

Ha ha how ironic "useful idiots"

Yes voters are the definition of useful idiots, happy to be used by activist for their agenda and sign up to something that they dont even know the detail on.

Indo note Mundine wont support the Voice because he thinks it wont do anything...read that again, its at complete odds with your own version of the future if it gets up.

Mundine is a rationalist he knows the system very well.

Also note Mundine wants to go far far further than treaties and date change including up to 80% of Australia being under Aboriginal control.

You have been had seriously.

No body has been had, im against the voice getting up thats my view, Warren is against the voice getting up, thats his view, we agree on this issue and have a common goal on this issue.

I mean crazy enough on this issue i even share a common goal with Lidia Thorpe, even if the goal is for different reasons, ive even shared sovereign citizen's views here because i agree with them about their position on the Voice but totally disagree with their motivation and other views.

You know you can share views and goals with people and support those aspects but also disagree with other things they say, i mean as much as i love and agree with Jacinta im sure we dont agree on everything, actually even her calls on effect of colonialism i dont totally agree with totally, 100% its over focussed on and over stated, but i dont think you can totally say there is zero on going effects, if i was her advisor i would have had her word things much differently

BTW. Do you have evidence of this 80% claim?...

I have listened to many of Warrens views in podcast etc and never came across this, while i dont agree with him on treaty or Aus day, for the most part i do agree with most of his thoughts, like focus on education, employment and participation in economy to close the gap etc.

andy-mac Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 7:00am

Ah @Indo loves Jacinta. How sweet...
You know what they say happens to your thinking when you fall in love ??
May explain things;)

indo-dreaming Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 7:10am

andy-mac wrote:
Ah @Indo loves Jacinta. How sweet...
You know what they say happens to your thinking when you fall in love ??
May explain things;)

Love as is in i love the things she has to say, i love she goes against the grain, i love that she is a strong driven women etc.

Kind of like how i love surfing, or love the ocean or love Indo.

Not love as in, i met my wife got to know her and we fell in love, or not as in i love my kids and would do anything for them.

Love comes in many shapes and forms.

burleigh Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 7:26am

People that trust the government after covid and that almighty shitstorm are the same people who think strippers are in love with them.

indo-dreaming Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 7:44am

Supafreak wrote:
burleigh wrote:
Supafreak wrote:
burleigh wrote:
Supafreak wrote:
burleigh wrote:
Supafreak wrote:
@burleigh , just saw your question, If you can show me a poll that only 30% FNP support the yes to voice then I would seriously vote no . Why ? Because it’s not about me burleigh , I’m not requesting a voice to parliament, FNP are .

So you’re basing your vote off the yes23 campaign of 80% of FNP supporting the Voice?

Do you think the 80% from yes23 is misleading or possibly not correct as it was done on Feb with a very small minority of FNP?

Im going with the people I personally trust in this campaign, that’s my choice . You also have a choice Burleigh and your voting no . Do you believe you can change my thinking on this ? I don’t believe I can change yours and I’m not attempting to either . Gotta stand for something I believe , or fall for anything . Can you show me your poll that only 30% of FNP support the voice ? Now that Ive answered your question can you answer mine ? You don’t trust the labor government, if they opposed the voice and wanted everyone to vote no would you then vote yes ?

No I can’t, it was a hypothetical. However when yes23 campaign of 80% is based off an online vote of 300 then 800 FNP with no actual proof needed it gets you thinking. Then when you realise it was done over 6 months ago it seems extremely suss.

Where did you get your information on how yes23 came up with 80% ?

Am I wrong?

There’s been more than one poll plus when you look at how many FNP have been involved in putting the voice together which is thousands not just 2 so called elites then I think you will find the majority do support it . I must agree with indo though , polls don’t always indicate the outcome. Look at some of the past elections. What I found interesting about the rallies on the weekend were the huge difference in numbers. Australians dont generally get out in large numbers unless it’s something they really believe in like the Vietnam war protests. I posted the video from Melbourne and pictures from Sydney, massive difference . Spud is playing games with this and thats why he has JP & wazza front and center , he doesn’t want to be seen as leading if it goes pear shaped which by the looks of those rallies is very possible . Gotta wonder why there isn’t big turnouts for no vote rallies. Or is it that people on the no vote side don’t really care enough and can’t be bothered.

Ha ha its funny that you think because there is people at rallies that the Yes vote will get up.

I mean the polls favour the No camp, but they are still showing about 40% for Yes thats still a lot of people, but it still means its unlikely to get both ticks needed to get up, more than 50% Australia wide and majority of states.

Plus issues like this cause people to be passionate couple this with big money to get the word out and you get big numbers, those who are voting yes and passionate are also much more likely to be left leaning which has a culture for thing's like rallies and just virtue signaling in general.

I think there is going to be some No rallies but i dont expect they will have the same numbers, apart from being poorly advertised (only seen one post on social media), most just aren't into that type of thing, for instance i would never go to one, i find it gimmicky and kind of cringy, its unlikely to change anyones mind, i just dont see the point of these rallies or walks, id much rather people read the info needed.

BTW. look at the covid rallies they were huge and went on for weeks but look at the results from freedom parties, to me it was surprising even with people like Clive Palmer putting in huge money, i thought at the ballot box their presence would be much bigger or Dan would have no chance of getting reelected even with a piss weak opposition.

Basically protestor's in most cases are generally just vocal minorities.

harrycoopr Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 8:22am

harrycoopr wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
So all you No voters agree with Thorpe's assertions that Sovereignty has not been ceded therefore nothing less than Sovereign recognition and reparations can be accepted. Seems yr Mundine's starting to trip up all over the place with his treaties!! Yes is Reconciliation in action... No is either against Aboriginal people's claims or in favour of their Sovereign claims... can't sit on the fence boys unless you like the feeling

This is for u to mull over burley... seems u need some stimulation... but don't bust yr brain bud

I notice u dumbass boys are avoiding this one!!

Jelly Flater Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 8:34am

;)

“ We have no idea. Absolutely none. “

& “ Love comes in many shapes and forms. “

Gold.

burleigh Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 8:37am

harrycoopr wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
So all you No voters agree with Thorpe's assertions that Sovereignty has not been ceded therefore nothing less than Sovereign recognition and reparations can be accepted. Seems yr Mundine's starting to trip up all over the place with his treaties!! Yes is Reconciliation in action... No is either against Aboriginal people's claims or in favour of their Sovereign claims... can't sit on the fence boys unless you like the feeling

This is for u to mull over burley... seems u need some stimulation... but don't bust yr brain bud

I notice u dumbass boys are avoiding this one!!

Winnie has started drinking early today.

burleigh Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 8:51am

View this post on Instagram

I focus Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 9:22am

Indo,

"BTW. Do you have evidence of this 80% claim?..."

Pretty sure he mention it on insiders 70% to 80% its been around for awhile.

I expect the No vote to get up but the whole thing is not going to age well including your comments IMHO.

burleigh Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 9:33am

80% hey!

View this post on Instagram

burleigh Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 9:45am

View this post on Instagram

harrycoopr Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 10:05am

burleigh wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
So all you No voters agree with Thorpe's assertions that Sovereignty has not been ceded therefore nothing less than Sovereign recognition and reparations can be accepted. Seems yr Mundine's starting to trip up all over the place with his treaties!! Yes is Reconciliation in action... No is either against Aboriginal people's claims or in favour of their Sovereign claims... can't sit on the fence boys unless you like the feeling

This is for u to mull over burley... seems u need some stimulation... but don't bust yr brain bud

I notice u dumbass boys are avoiding this one!!

Winnie has started drinking early today.

Poor burley... poor sad dumbass burley...just can't get yr head around this can ya u dope... that picket fence is right up yr clacker

Fliplid Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 10:41am

I read that Spectator article indo and well...what to say? Desperate idiocy maybe. Geez, Nancy Reagan, crack cocaine, hooked on gateway drugs?? in an article about an indigenous Voice, come on, you're better than that. As I said before bullshit is being thrown around by both sides and that article fits the category. Notice the words "....are said to have.." and "Or words to that effect" so the author, whoever it is, wasn't even there and hasn't even got the decency to get his facts right before writing an article. This is like the guy in burleighs post that got all emotional because he was told to shut up at a town meeting and turns out it was an old biddy telling him to stop hogging the microphone and give some else a turn.

This is a political fight brewed up by Dutton and all these fairy tales are the ammo and he is being backed by a bunch of white, city elite. Simple, that's the real story

Even you acknowledge that there are no details about laws in the Constitution and that nothing gets legislated unless passed by Parliament. At least Warren Mundine has the decency to stick to reasons against the Voice that are based on his ideas of what's needed without resorting to fabricated stories about details and demands

burleigh Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 10:59am

harrycoopr wrote:
burleigh wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
So all you No voters agree with Thorpe's assertions that Sovereignty has not been ceded therefore nothing less than Sovereign recognition and reparations can be accepted. Seems yr Mundine's starting to trip up all over the place with his treaties!! Yes is Reconciliation in action... No is either against Aboriginal people's claims or in favour of their Sovereign claims... can't sit on the fence boys unless you like the feeling

This is for u to mull over burley... seems u need some stimulation... but don't bust yr brain bud

I notice u dumbass boys are avoiding this one!!

Winnie has started drinking early today.

Poor burley... poor sad dumbass burley...just can't get yr head around this can ya u dope... that picket fence is right up yr clacker

What papers have you published? I'm interested in having a look

southernraw Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 11:19am

Gotta wonder when your only newssource is instagram.

burleigh Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 11:23am

southernraw wrote:
Gotta wonder when your only newssource is instagram.

I bet you attended a yes23 rally on the weekend didnt you Southern.

burleigh Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 11:47am

What a surprise.
https://www.rebelnews.com/_walk_for_yes_rally_participants_called_out_af...

southernraw Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 11:51am

Instagram...rebel news.
Cant believe the lengths u go to to educate yourself.

burleigh Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 12:00pm

southernraw wrote:
Instagram...rebel news.
Cant believe the lengths u go to to educate yourself.

Where do you suggest to look for fair and balanced reporting?

AndyM Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 12:49pm

burleigh wrote:
What a surprise.
https://www.rebelnews.com/_walk_for_yes_rally_participants_called_out_af...

Yeew! Quality article from a quality source.
And you call yourself an independent thinker grasping at stuff like that.

overthefalls Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 12:50pm

burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
Instagram...rebel news.
Cant believe the lengths u go to to educate yourself.

Where do you suggest to look for fair and balanced reporting?

The Sydney Morning Herald has been balanced in its coverage of the issue, publishing an equal number of opinion pieces by both yes and no campaigners.

burleigh Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 12:57pm

AndyM wrote:
burleigh wrote:
What a surprise.
https://www.rebelnews.com/_walk_for_yes_rally_participants_called_out_af...

Yeew! Quality article from a quality source.
And you call yourself an independent thinker grasping at stuff like that.

I knew you would like it AndyM. Do you think it’s a fabricated story or you just writing it off because of the website it’s published on?

southernraw Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 1:03pm

burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
Instagram...rebel news.
Cant believe the lengths u go to to educate yourself.

Where do you suggest to look for fair and balanced reporting?

"He who knows does not speak, he who speaks does not know".
Maybe instead of spending all day on SN using garbage sites to try to provide you points to win with, spend some time digging deeper, listening, get out of your postcode, away from your mate, the "proud bunjulung man" who most likely shares the same anti government biases you do (birds of a feather) and when you actually have something worthwhile to say, with substance, you might actually be taken seriously and listened to.
Right now youre a cross between pauline hanson and lowinfo. A laughable joke at best.
Someone on a terrorist watchlist ay worst.

indo-dreaming Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 1:28pm

Fliplid wrote:
I read that Spectator article indo and well...what to say? Desperate idiocy maybe. Geez, Nancy Reagan, crack cocaine, hooked on gateway drugs?? in an article about an indigenous Voice, come on, you're better than that. As I said before bullshit is being thrown around by both sides and that article fits the category. Notice the words "....are said to have.." and "Or words to that effect" so the author, whoever it is, wasn't even there and hasn't even got the decency to get his facts right before writing an article. This is like the guy in burleighs post that got all emotional because he was told to shut up at a town meeting and turns out it was an old biddy telling him to stop hogging the microphone and give some else a turn.

This is a political fight brewed up by Dutton and all these fairy tales are the ammo and he is being backed by a bunch of white, city elite. Simple, that's the real story

Even you acknowledge that there are no details about laws in the Constitution and that nothing gets legislated unless passed by Parliament. At least Warren Mundine has the decency to stick to reasons against the Voice that are based on his ideas of what's needed without resorting to fabricated stories about details and demands

I only provided the link to the article as, i was quoting and providing evidence of the hook comment, as i knew that the those involved in the voice have described the voice as the hook to get treaty etc

I dont like providing quotes without showing a source, so the link was only to show the source, nothing more, It could have been any article or video that i had shared to show the hook thing is a thing, but that was just what appeared in the google search, to be honest i didn't even read the article, now im kind of curious.

And don't anyone dare diss me for providing a link i haven't read, (again link was only to show the source) it not like im PM of Australia and admit to not having read all the pages (no matter what you want to call them) related to the thing ive committed in full the USFTH and running a referendum on the first stage off the USFTH.

Anyway, its really not about politics, its about doing whats right for the future of Australia and preserving the integrity of the most important document our country has, and preventing us from being set back 60 years by vindictive divisive activist.

indo-dreaming Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 1:11pm

I focus wrote:
Indo,

"BTW. Do you have evidence of this 80% claim?..."

Pretty sure he mention it on insiders 70% to 80% its been around for awhile.

I expect the No vote to get up but the whole thing is not going to age well including your comments IMHO.

Thats your view but i completely disagree.

I am glad you weren't tempted to use the right side of history line though, because the right side of history is whatever the public decides on the 14th October.

mike oxhard Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 1:10pm

burleigh wrote:
What a surprise.
https://www.rebelnews.com/_walk_for_yes_rally_participants_called_out_af...

what are they suggesting the people attending the rally should do? they are there for a rally not to magically fix the homeless problem, what a ridiculous article

indo-dreaming Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 1:17pm

harrycoopr wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
So all you No voters agree with Thorpe's assertions that Sovereignty has not been ceded therefore nothing less than Sovereign recognition and reparations can be accepted. Seems yr Mundine's starting to trip up all over the place with his treaties!! Yes is Reconciliation in action... No is either against Aboriginal people's claims or in favour of their Sovereign claims... can't sit on the fence boys unless you like the feeling

This is for u to mull over burley... seems u need some stimulation... but don't bust yr brain bud

I notice u dumbass boys are avoiding this one!!

See my post @ TUESDAY, 19 SEP 2023 at 7:01AM it wasnt directed at you, but it deals with this exact thing/idea.

No voters and even Yes voters vote the way they do for a variety of reasons.

For example Jacinta price and Lidia Thorpe are both against the voice, both will vote No but the reasons for doing so are very different.

Its absolutely ridiculous to think just because someone is voting No they have to support some crazy Sovereign idea or even share Jacinta's or others ideas, No voters dont have to share either view, they can decided themselves why they are voting no.

seeds Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 1:14pm

Exactly Mike Oxhard. Using this tripe to support your stance is pretty poor judgment Burliegh

mike oxhard Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 1:26pm

seeds wrote:
Exactly Mike Oxhard. Using this tripe to support your stance is pretty poor judgment Burliegh

I dunno how anyone willingly gobbles up this obvious rage bait bullshit when the internet is full of this stuff, use your judgement people, 99% of published articles on the internet are for entertainment purposes at best, consume it like the fiction it is, but don't be fooled by it

burleigh Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 1:29pm

ohhhh look the rebel news police are out in force today. Please tell me where the article hurt your feelings?

seeds Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 1:32pm

Never walked past a homeless person Burls? How many people have you taken in?

burleigh Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 1:40pm

seeds wrote:
Never walked past a homeless person Burls? How many people have you taken in?

I wasn't marching with a sign pretending to care.

stunet Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 1:41pm

burleigh wrote:
ohhhh look the rebel news police are out in force today. Please tell me where the article hurt your feelings?

Oh c'mon...

It was an overreach to try and delegitimize a protest. You of all people should be on to that.

harrycoopr Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 1:44pm

burleigh wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
burleigh wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
So all you No voters agree with Thorpe's assertions that Sovereignty has not been ceded therefore nothing less than Sovereign recognition and reparations can be accepted. Seems yr Mundine's starting to trip up all over the place with his treaties!! Yes is Reconciliation in action... No is either against Aboriginal people's claims or in favour of their Sovereign claims... can't sit on the fence boys unless you like the feeling

This is for u to mull over burley... seems u need some stimulation... but don't bust yr brain bud

I notice u dumbass boys are avoiding this one!!

Winnie has started drinking early today.

Poor burley... poor sad dumbass burley...just can't get yr head around this can ya u dope... that picket fence is right up yr clacker

What papers have you published? I'm interested in having a look

A dummy like u wouldn't understand them...
Anyway when ya gonna answer the question...too hard huh. Go back to my original post and pick out yr answer for why yr no... cos u havent given a good reason yet

mike oxhard Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 1:45pm

burleigh wrote:
seeds wrote:
Never walked past a homeless person Burls? How many people have you taken in?

I wasn't marching with a sign pretending to care.

did you expect the voice to parliament rally to magically solve homelessness? this is a gold medal display of mental gymnastics

burleigh Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 1:47pm

mike oxhard wrote:
burleigh wrote:
seeds wrote:
Never walked past a homeless person Burls? How many people have you taken in?

I wasn't marching with a sign pretending to care.

did you expect the voice to parliament rally to magically solve homelessness? this is a gold medal display of mental gymnastics

A homeless FNP.

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