The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
https://m.
Is what Price said yesterday the equivalent to holocaust denial? If not why not?
GuySmiley wrote:Is what Price said yesterday the equivalent to holocaust denial? If not why not?
Her face when she said it... like, did i really just say that OOPS.. She's proven her credibility which is absolutely zilch. Most of these rightwing No humans are simply self interested or nutjobs or both... I mean look at Michaela Cash for example.
GuySmiley wrote:Is what Price said yesterday the equivalent to holocaust denial? If not why not?
Because the holocaust is a concrete event that can be measured
While intergenerational trauma is closer to a theory, that cant or at best is hard to measured.
I dont think Jacinta should have answered the first part of her answer in the way she did.
I think the first part of the answer was a little blunt, i think she should have said, that in some cases it can perhaps be a factor to some degree if the effect is recent, but it is always well overstated as a factor while other more important factors are totally ignored, and then continued on to what she had said.
BTW. great podcast with her today on Spotify from "The Front" where she talks about other factors among other things.
geez, a drama queens's gotta drama...
why not?
for about 550...
thousand reasons...
Measured?
Oh pray tell what that could logically possibly mean?
Like one can and the other can’t?
GuySmiley wrote:Measured?
Oh pray tell what that could logically possibly mean?
Like one can and the other can’t?
The holocaust is something concrete, people partook in it, people were victims of it, we have text and records we have truck loads of evidence it happened we even have lots of photos even footage and of course evidence in bones/bodies.
That means its measurable.
Intergenerational trauma is more an idea that trauma can be passed on from person to person through generations, it only holds truth in that behavioural patterns and habits of people can be passed on from parent's to children .
But you first need to establish those behaviours are a result of trauma, that in itself is often hard to do.
Its not measurable or very hard too.
Stop right there you FW with this “ Intergenerational trauma” bullshit parroting what was said yesterday in an effort to spin her unflushable shitshow.
The truth is the facts are what she said yesterday is deeply flawed and offensive bullshit denying the genocide that was the effect of colonisation and hence my question: was what Price said yesterday the AU equivalent to holocaust denial
So now we aren't talking about what she said yesterday?
Your going off on some other slant, interpreting her words as something else?
FFS anyway you are tripping as per usual.
GuySmiley wrote:Stop right there you FW with this “ Intergenerational trauma” bullshit parroting what was said yesterday in an effort to spin her unflushable shitshow.
The truth is the facts are what she said yesterday is deeply flawed and offensive bullshit denying the genocide that was the effect of colonisation and hence my question: was what Price said yesterday the AU equivalent to holocaust denial
GuySmiley. Hi. Hope you are well. I thought you were going to avoid the stench, now you are back at the quagmire.
Did you get the chance to get in the water ?
Holocaust, oh thats not very long ago from memory, remind me when that occurred, yesterday really.
I think atrocities against our FNP have been going on for way, way longer than that ugly phase of European terror.
I find it amusing how people can refer to one event as amazingly atrocious and yet it was very recent, but simply cant bring themselves to offer up the same description for something that happened a very long time ago.
It’s the old chop and change your opinions or feelings to suit your current dialogue or agenda.
I very much dislike the constant reference to Europe being soooooo old, crap, its was built yesterday. A place like Oz with its peoples history stretching back to at least 47,500 years (upper limit for carbon dating), could be more who knows.
Regardless of anyone’s idea, that thoughtless woman, Price , should’ve known better than to say what she did. AW
It's another distraction to the whole Voice campaign, so once again she's setting the agenda and steering the debate. Mission accomplished I'd say. Although to be fair, in this instance it was in answer to a question for which the journalist no doubt knew what JP would say, so who was doing the stirring?
Deflect deny lie that’s all you have
and blame the other side
Fliplid wrote:It's another distraction to the whole Voice campaign, so once again she's setting the agenda and steering the debate. Mission accomplished I'd say. Although to be fair, in this instance it was in answer to a question for which the journalist no doubt knew what JP would say, so who was doing the stirring?
It was just a typical journalist who already knew the answer he would get looking for a news story (thats their job though)
BTW. While this voice thing has probably been one of the most divisive things we have seen in recent history.
I think the most positive thing to come out of this is that people/public in general are starting to see and learn that Aboriginal people aren't this one group that hold one view and that they dont agree on everything and hold a range of diverse views, i think even Lidia Thorpe has even helped in this area, showing it not just two views either, but a spectrum of views.
“ GuySmiley. Hi. Hope you are well. I thought you were going to avoid the stench, now you are back at the quagmire.”
Exactly!
It’s like Indo has some attractive pheromone that his opponents just can’t resist. They can’t help themselves, he just reels them in hahaha.
He loves this shit, thrives on it even.
Arguing, debating, on swellnet is life
indo-dreaming wrote:Fliplid wrote:It's another distraction to the whole Voice campaign, so once again she's setting the agenda and steering the debate. Mission accomplished I'd say. Although to be fair, in this instance it was in answer to a question for which the journalist no doubt knew what JP would say, so who was doing the stirring?
It was just a typical journalist who already knew the answer he would get looking for a news story (thats their job though)
BTW. While this voice thing has probably been one of the most divisive things we have seen in recent history.
I think the most positive thing to come out of this is that people/public in general are starting to see and learn that Aboriginal people aren't this one group that hold one view and that they dont agree on everything and hold a range of diverse views, i think even Lidia Thorpe has even helped in this area, showing it not just two views either, but a spectrum of views.
Indo. Hi. Herein lies the problem.
That explains everything. You’ve only just worked that out.
This is the problem, the colour of anyone’s skin blurs sensibility. Fucking forget skin colour,
For fuck sake, they are people, they bleed, shit, breed, argue, fight , divorce, marry,, drive cars, have humour, eat food, dance, commit crimes, play, have birthdays, and everything else Homo sapiens does.
Why do we expect them to be any different. The major problem goes back to treatment.
It’s been ingrained in our Anglo psyche or mentalities that these people are different, as mentioned a few days ago, a deliberate ploy by previous colonial governments, again more scare mongering, repeated by John Howard not long ago.
It’s any wonder why most Anglo Australians dont know how to behave, act or interact with FNP , because we’ve been programmed to fear or dislike them.
Shame on you Australia, shame, shame, and shame again. Get a grip, grow up and make the effort to ‘build bridges’, they are wonderful people. AW
goofyfoot wrote:“ GuySmiley. Hi. Hope you are well. I thought you were going to avoid the stench, now you are back at the quagmire.”
Exactly!
It’s like Indo has some attractive pheromone that his opponents just can’t resist. They can’t help themselves, he just reels them in hahaha.
He loves this shit, thrives on it even.
Arguing, debating, on swellnet is life
Haha, yup! Anyone who had an opinion on this early on, and then adds new crap to say 'seeee?' is just doing a stanky sharks vs jets dance. Totally disingenuous about their initial motivations. Awesome if some on the fence have sifted through the shit, but really, nothing new has happened here in months. Well done southern for getting out in one piece.
Gday AW, yep I got a surf in yesterday then a swim so ended up very salty.
And yes I am back in after yesterday’s totally repulsive comments, can you imagine how she would be treated/viewed in any other country that had been colonised? She would have to have 24/7 security but not here, a very sad reflection on the country … how in your wildest dreams can you imagine how that woman can ever step foot on mob’s land without being accompanied by security? But yeah she speaks to her people all the time
GuySmiley wrote:Gday AW, yep I got a surf in yesterday then a swim so ended up very salty.
And yes I am back in after yesterday’s totally repulsive comments, can you imagine how she would be treated/viewed in any other country that had been colonised? She would have to have 24/7 security but not here, a very sad reflection on the country … how in your wildest dreams can you imagine how that woman can ever step foot on mob’s land without being accompanied by security? But yeah she speaks to her people all the time
Guy. Glad to hear you had a briny immersion, good weather for it. AW
AlfredWallace wrote:Indo. Hi. Herein lies the problem.
That explains everything. You’ve only just worked that out.
This is the problem, the colour of anyone’s skin blurs sensibility. Fucking forget skin colour,
For fuck sake, they are people, they bleed, shit, breed, argue, fight , divorce, marry,, drive cars, have humour, eat food, dance, commit crimes, play, have birthdays, and everything else Homo sapiens does.
Why do we expect them to be any different. The major problem goes back to treatment.
It’s been ingrained in our Anglo psyche or mentalities that these people are different, as mentioned a few days ago, a deliberate ploy by previous colonial governments, again more scare mongering, repeated by John Howard not long ago.It’s any wonder why most Anglo Australians dont know how to behave, act or interact with FNP , because we’ve been programmed to fear or dislike them.
Shame on you Australia, shame, shame, and shame again. Get a grip, grow up and make the effort to ‘build bridges’, they are wonderful people. AW
Yep. Herein lies the problem.
That explains everything.
"They" are indeed no different to "us". In fact, there is no "them" or "us". We are all one and the same peoples with a common, shared destiny.
We are all already the same peoples. We all already have the same equal opportunity and access in society. We are all already treated as equals under the law. We all already have equal opportunity to participate in politics. We all already have the same freedom and liberty.
We already have one of the best functioning liberal democracies, constitutional monarchies, market economies and legal systems, etc, on the planet. Australia is already a great nation with great institutions which were developed specifically to ensure our equality of opportunity and our equality of freedom and liberty as the one, same and united peoples with a shared, common destiny.
We are all already equally responsible for our own lives and our own outcomes in life. We are all already equally free to choose how to live our own lives. Our outcomes in life, good or bad, elevated or marginalised, are determined by our own personal actions, behaviours and decisions in life.
The Voice goes against all these basic facts.
It creates a divided "them" and "us" nation based on a fake, artificial, racist division. The Voice does not bring together or unite anything or anyone, but instead further ingrains and institutionalises racist division into the constitution, our legal and political institutions and our culture and society. And then it gives preferential treatment to one side of this artificial, racist division.
The voice goes against everything about equal opportunity, freedom and liberty that Australia stands for and that Australia's institutions were set up specifically to relate, ensure and preserve.
The Voice in itself, in its very nature, is racist.
yes, gasco, conservatives wish we weren't faced with this and totally disagree with the principle, but they will vote yes, because to do otherwise would be unconscionable and embarrassing, all covered long ago.
Basesix, when the Voice discussion started I was Yes by default. Now I started looking into it as the date is coming soon and it is very likely that I will vote No. And by no means do I feel embarrassed by it. Other people might have that perception about people like me but that is ridiculous. If anything, that perception assumes that I should vote Yes out of embarrassment!? Sorry but I try to remove all emotions from my decision making. I practised it for years and I’m certainly not changing it for the voice.
“ The holocaust is something concrete, people partook in it, people were victims of it, we have text and records we have truck loads of evidence it happened we even have lots of photos even footage and of course evidence in bones/bodies.
That means its measurable.
Intergenerational trauma is more an idea that trauma can be passed on from person to person through generations, it only holds truth in that behavioural patterns and habits of people can be passed on from parent's to children .
But you first need to establish those behaviours are a result of trauma, that in itself is often hard to do.
It’s not measurable or very hard too. “
??? Faaarkkk.
- what a pile of dribble… an absolute display of arrogance… a total misinterpretation of facts and a false representation of historical reality.
- a pathetic, uninformed, incorrect, incoherent and farcical attempt at reason.
Ever been chained up ? Ever been tethered neck to feet ?
Ever had your children stolen… forcibly taken… removed forever ?
Here is a real measuring stick…
https://m.
&pp=ygUnc3RvbGVuIGdlbmVyYXRpb24gYXVzdHJhbGlhIGRvY3VtZW50YXJ5 Jelly, trauma can definitely be passed through the generations. There’s no doubt about that.
flollo wrote:Basesix, when the Voice discussion started I was Yes by default. Now I started looking into it as the date is coming soon and it is very likely that I will vote No. And by no means do I feel embarrassed by it. Other people might have that perception about people like me but that is ridiculous. If anything, that perception assumes that I should vote Yes out of embarrassment!? Sorry but I try to remove all emotions from my decision making. I practised it for years and I’m certainly not changing it for the voice.
so don't feel embarrassed. It is a referendum of everyone's opinions. It is what it is. It won't be a fully representative voice, that's what happens in pyramids of power, it is the same way I feel about my local member, my state govt, and federal decisions made that affect me. I pay rates to a large town that sucks up bucks, but doesn't even give our little town public bins. But it is what it is. Like the referendum. A bunch of worthy people with a magnificent, and recently shithouse history, asking for something simple, endorsed by the vast majority affected by it, now at the mercy of 97% of the country who seem to think it is suddenly worthy of some massive drama. I've thrown my emotional two-cents in long ago, so now that's my emotionless take on it.
gsco wrote:AlfredWallace wrote:Indo. Hi. Herein lies the problem.
That explains everything. You’ve only just worked that out.
This is the problem, the colour of anyone’s skin blurs sensibility. Fucking forget skin colour,
For fuck sake, they are people, they bleed, shit, breed, argue, fight , divorce, marry,, drive cars, have humour, eat food, dance, commit crimes, play, have birthdays, and everything else Homo sapiens does.
Why do we expect them to be any different. The major problem goes back to treatment.
It’s been ingrained in our Anglo psyche or mentalities that these people are different, as mentioned a few days ago, a deliberate ploy by previous colonial governments, again more scare mongering, repeated by John Howard not long ago.It’s any wonder why most Anglo Australians dont know how to behave, act or interact with FNP , because we’ve been programmed to fear or dislike them.
Shame on you Australia, shame, shame, and shame again. Get a grip, grow up and make the effort to ‘build bridges’, they are wonderful people. AW
Yep. Herein lies the problem.
That explains everything.
"They" are indeed no different to "us". In fact, there is no "them" or "us". We are all one and the same peoples with a common, shared destiny.
We are all already the same peoples. We all already have the same equal opportunity and access in society. We are all already treated as equals under the law. We all already have equal opportunity to participate in politics. We all already have the same freedom and liberty.
We already have one of the best functioning liberal democracies, constitutional monarchies, market economies and legal systems, etc, on the planet. Australia is already a great nation with great institutions which were developed specifically to ensure our equality of opportunity and our equality of freedom and liberty as the one, same and united peoples with a shared, common destiny.
We are all already equally responsible for our own lives and our own outcomes in life. We are all already equally free to choose how to live our own lives. Our outcomes in life, good or bad, elevated or marginalised, are determined by our own personal actions, behaviours and decisions in life.
The Voice goes against all these basic facts.
It creates a divided "them" and "us" nation based on a fake, artificial, racist division. The Voice does not bring together or unite anything or anyone, but instead further ingrains and institutionalises racist division into the constitution, our legal and political institutions and our culture and society. And then it gives preferential treatment to one side of this artificial, racist division.
The voice goes against everything about equal opportunity, freedom and liberty that Australia stands for and that Australia's institutions were set up specifically to relate, ensure and preserve.
The Voice in itself, in its very nature, is racist.
Yes as humans we all share base similarities ... our humanity and its traits...but Aboriginal cultures are almost the opposite of our individualistic capitalist possession-driven western culture. Hence the need for a voice. We been telling them how to be for years... assimilate and you'll be fine. Thats why the LNP loves Price cos shes part of our system.. and thats how she can shove both feet in her mouth like yday. I dont think ppl like indo etc have any real experience with Aboriginal people and especially remote area ppl... they only know what they see on the media.
As for the gsco part above... another moron... hasnt got a clue... just dribbling shit... "the voice is racist"...my god where do these morons come from
@gsco
"We are all already equally responsible for our own lives and our own outcomes in life. We are all already equally free to choose how to live our own lives."
Such unbelievable ignorance to say something like this.
How dense do you have to be.
"It creates a divided "them" and "us" nation based on a fake, artificial, racist division."
The division, the gap, the gulf between indigenous crew and the rest of Australian society exists and is totally quantifiable - to say trying to bridge this gap will create a division is total bullshit.
The only people to believe this are those that are ignorant of existing circumstances or those who realise what the situation is and are still happy to maintain the status quo.
People people... once again it's really simple.
The Voice has been asked for by Aboriginal people. Constitutional recognition finally takes place after 230+ years of colonisation. Colonisation has affected the majority of Aboriginal cultures that continues today...hence the Gap.
The Voice simply allows the first people here to have an input into issues that affect them. It finally gives RESPECT to people and their ancestors and heritage to be heard.
It's not about race. It's not dividing anybody. It's not a threat to whiteys precious privileges.
It's really simple. The LNP could've easily gone bipartisan on this but they're so desperate for political recognition after the corrupt farce of the last LNP government they decided to make it a political football. The Spud knew it's his only chance to take on Albo. Disgusting but typical rightwing politics.
It's really simple.
Also the LNP represent the landowners, the landed gentry, so it's obvious they will resist any perceived threats to their privilege.
gsco wrote:AlfredWallace wrote:Indo. Hi. Herein lies the problem.
That explains everything. You’ve only just worked that out.
This is the problem, the colour of anyone’s skin blurs sensibility. Fucking forget skin colour,
For fuck sake, they are people, they bleed, shit, breed, argue, fight , divorce, marry,, drive cars, have humour, eat food, dance, commit crimes, play, have birthdays, and everything else Homo sapiens does.
Why do we expect them to be any different. The major problem goes back to treatment.
It’s been ingrained in our Anglo psyche or mentalities that these people are different, as mentioned a few days ago, a deliberate ploy by previous colonial governments, again more scare mongering, repeated by John Howard not long ago.It’s any wonder why most Anglo Australians dont know how to behave, act or interact with FNP , because we’ve been programmed to fear or dislike them.
Shame on you Australia, shame, shame, and shame again. Get a grip, grow up and make the effort to ‘build bridges’, they are wonderful people. AW
Yep. Herein lies the problem.
That explains everything.
"They" are indeed no different to "us". In fact, there is no "them" or "us". We are all one and the same peoples with a common, shared destiny.
We are all already the same peoples. We all already have the same equal opportunity and access in society. We are all already treated as equals under the law. We all already have equal opportunity to participate in politics. We all already have the same freedom and liberty.
We already have one of the best functioning liberal democracies, constitutional monarchies, market economies and legal systems, etc, on the planet. Australia is already a great nation with great institutions which were developed specifically to ensure our equality of opportunity and our equality of freedom and liberty as the one, same and united peoples with a shared, common destiny.
We are all already equally responsible for our own lives and our own outcomes in life. We are all already equally free to choose how to live our own lives. Our outcomes in life, good or bad, elevated or marginalised, are determined by our own personal actions, behaviours and decisions in life.
The Voice goes against all these basic facts.
It creates a divided "them" and "us" nation based on a fake, artificial, racist division. The Voice does not bring together or unite anything or anyone, but instead further ingrains and institutionalises racist division into the constitution, our legal and political institutions and our culture and society. And then it gives preferential treatment to one side of this artificial, racist division.
The voice goes against everything about equal opportunity, freedom and liberty that Australia stands for and that Australia's institutions were set up specifically to relate, ensure and preserve.
The Voice in itself, in its very nature, is racist.
100% gsco very well put.
AW you are completely wrong, its not new info to me at all, even the views of Jacinta and people like Anthony Dillion are not new to me, ive been listening to them for years.
But i think for the general public this is not true, because the narratives we generally hear are cliche ones the type of things your regurgitate the type of stuff Marcia peddles, basically tired word out divisive cliches.
@ Harry
Pretty funny that you claim Jacinta is part of the system, when she and her family are from remote central Australia and lived in other remote indigenous communities, her mother in particular knows the culture better than any, she was born under a tree fought against being forced into being a promised bride at 13.
Meanwhile many of the other Indigenous leaders on the yes camp are no different to most Aussies, many born and bred in cities
And no surprise now throwing insults at GSCO because he doesn't share your views.
I highly doubt you would do this in your day to day life, so why do it here?
This song embodies the true spirit of Australia. Australia is multicultural and diverse. There is only one Australia. We are all Australian.
We are one, but we are many
And from all the lands on earth we come
We'll share a dream and sing with one voice
"I am, you are, we are Australian"
Regarding bridging the gap: God helps those who help themselves.
indo-dreaming wrote:gsco wrote:AlfredWallace wrote:Indo. Hi. Herein lies the problem.
That explains everything. You’ve only just worked that out.
This is the problem, the colour of anyone’s skin blurs sensibility. Fucking forget skin colour,
For fuck sake, they are people, they bleed, shit, breed, argue, fight , divorce, marry,, drive cars, have humour, eat food, dance, commit crimes, play, have birthdays, and everything else Homo sapiens does.
Why do we expect them to be any different. The major problem goes back to treatment.
It’s been ingrained in our Anglo psyche or mentalities that these people are different, as mentioned a few days ago, a deliberate ploy by previous colonial governments, again more scare mongering, repeated by John Howard not long ago.It’s any wonder why most Anglo Australians dont know how to behave, act or interact with FNP , because we’ve been programmed to fear or dislike them.
Shame on you Australia, shame, shame, and shame again. Get a grip, grow up and make the effort to ‘build bridges’, they are wonderful people. AW
Yep. Herein lies the problem.
That explains everything.
"They" are indeed no different to "us". In fact, there is no "them" or "us". We are all one and the same peoples with a common, shared destiny.
We are all already the same peoples. We all already have the same equal opportunity and access in society. We are all already treated as equals under the law. We all already have equal opportunity to participate in politics. We all already have the same freedom and liberty.
We already have one of the best functioning liberal democracies, constitutional monarchies, market economies and legal systems, etc, on the planet. Australia is already a great nation with great institutions which were developed specifically to ensure our equality of opportunity and our equality of freedom and liberty as the one, same and united peoples with a shared, common destiny.
We are all already equally responsible for our own lives and our own outcomes in life. We are all already equally free to choose how to live our own lives. Our outcomes in life, good or bad, elevated or marginalised, are determined by our own personal actions, behaviours and decisions in life.
The Voice goes against all these basic facts.
It creates a divided "them" and "us" nation based on a fake, artificial, racist division. The Voice does not bring together or unite anything or anyone, but instead further ingrains and institutionalises racist division into the constitution, our legal and political institutions and our culture and society. And then it gives preferential treatment to one side of this artificial, racist division.
The voice goes against everything about equal opportunity, freedom and liberty that Australia stands for and that Australia's institutions were set up specifically to relate, ensure and preserve.
The Voice in itself, in its very nature, is racist.
100% gsco very well put.
AW you are completely wrong, its not new info to me at all, even the views of Jacinta and people like Anthony Dillion are not new to me, ive been listening to them for years.
But i think for the general public this is not true, because the narratives we generally hear are cliche ones the type of things your regurgitate the type of stuff Marcia peddles, basically tired word out divisive cliches.
@ Harry
Pretty funny that you claim Jacinta is part of the system, when she and her family are from remote central Australia and lived in other remote indigenous communities, her mother in particular knows the culture better than any, she was born under a tree fought against being forced into being a promised bride at 13.
Meanwhile many of the other Indigenous leaders on the yes camp are no different to most Aussies, many born and bred in cities
And no surprise now throwing insults at GSCO because he doesn't share your views.
I highly doubt you would do this in your day to day life, so why do it here?
Not insults mate...just calling out stupidity.
J Price is a privileged latte set blackfella... a coconut in fact. Been in politics a long time following her mum in the Libs tradition... u know how much these pollies make? Plus the perks?? Love to know how long she stays out bush.
Anyway indo... you'll never change...like yr antivaxxer mate burley. You rightwingers are stuck in denial... a delusional holier rhan thou denial
gsco wrote:This song embodies the true spirit of Australia. Australia is multicultural and diverse. There is only one Australia. We are all Australian.
We are one, but we are many
And from all the lands on earth we come
We'll share a dream and sing with one voice
"I am, you are, we are Australian"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05f7nG57gq4
Regarding bridging the gap: God helps those who help themselves.
The last comment says it all... I cant even be "insulting" about this. I'm just gobsmacked, flabbergasted, incredulous... but u gotta laugh
A guy who was all set to vote Yes in the upcoming Voice referendum has changed his mind after Jacinta Price pointed out that colonisation means Indigenous Australians now have taps.
“I was focusing on the fact that Indigenous Australians have lower life expectancies, higher unemployment and poorer living conditions. But turns out they have access to water and food so I’m not sure what all the fuss was about. Looks like everything’s tip top,” the Victorian man said.
He said he now conceded that Indigenous people were better off due to colonisation. “That was over 200 years ago. I mean, sure, some people alive today were forcibly removed from their families when they were kids. But on the plus side, they have access to a system of pipes underground that supplies water. Swings and roundabouts”.
Ventriloquist Voldemort throws his voice about.
[L] Opposes The Voice Reffo
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/apr/05/peter-dutton-conf...
[L] Support Reffo just to Mandate Multi-million [NO] Vote Pamphlet Funding that none Voted on!
[L] 100% Commitment to Voice by Mandating a [NO] Vote
https://theconversation.com/the-liberal-partys-no-position-on-voice-sign...
[L] Committed to 2nd [L] Reffo...say wot! Huh!
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/dutton-promises-another-vote-if-...
[L] Boycott their Mandated [NO] Vote by calling off Albo's Reffo for him.
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/dutton-challenges-albanese-to-ca...
[L] Boycott their Mandated [YES] Reffo
Dutto says : "Nobody wants My 2nd $500m Reffo ...They're all fuckin' losers!"
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12521003/Peter-Dutton-says-want...
[L] Mandating Boycott against every Reffo & everything forever & ever Amen!
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Not sure if that's enough space for Dutto's Skyrocketing Polls
Still don't know How 2 Vote 4 Dutto's Half a dozen Mandated Boycotted Reffo Apologies.
Vote [Yes] 2 Boycott Dutto's Mandated [no] Reffo + Vote [Yes] 2 Boycott Dutto's mandated [yes] Reffo
Hoping there's a swing from ABC week old poll, but betting agrees
You're right... i shouldn't be insulting, calling ppl morons etc. I should exercise more empathy. But my emotions get the better of me. When I think about how politics has a very real effect on people's lives... well, I just keep wondering how people can hold such moronic views...whoops sorry... I mean I try to understand where such imbecilic beliefs arise...damn just can't help myself.
God helps those...
The voice is racist...
I shouldn't be insulting but my rage against stupidity will not end.
Allowing something Aboriginal people have asked for is not stupid.
gsco has outed himself. Talk of communist takeover and now God.
Jacinta wears [NO] badge @ $3m Westpac [YES] Lectern.
Soaks up a free $2m Westpac Backing for her badged [NO] ensemble-Colonial Piss Take Jokes
Refuses to answer all 3x Press Club Questions about [L] Reffo / Constitution / Legislation..[F.U]
$5m Peak [NO] Promo fully paid for by Top [YES] Backer!
That be why she's smashin' the Champers.
Sorry to say it...but [YES] Camp are way too nice for this Reffo!
No way would [NO] Camp give away a $5m freebie to [YES]
Check here how Jacinta grins atop the $5m [YES] Holy Grail
Make no mistake...that's how much that session was worth!
Note how this photo is perfectly framed to exploit Corp / Media Approval
Comes with a built in $5m 'Price tag'
Westpac 3 year High Point crowning the [NO] Queen at her peak (All media lapped it up)
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=855375169282870&set=a.335645647922494
Exactly TBB too nice. Numpties. Wonder why polls are negative?
seeds wrote:gsco has outed himself. Talk of communist takeover and now God.
gsco has outed himself as one of those stupid people who got his hopes up with the ALP. Never again.
gsco has realised that the ALP has its imagination and policy responses stuck squarely in socialist ideology and themes in which everything in life is a communist struggle of oppressed vs oppressors:
- dividing Australia into ethic, gender, racial, etc, groups being oppressed by white male supremacy and colonial invaders and murderers (for instance The Voice)
- workers supposedly being exploited by corporations
- wages supposedly not keeping up with productivity gains
- labour supposedly losing its slice of the business income pie
- evil corporate profits and price gauging supposedly being the cause inflation
- economics supposedly is a conspiracy to entrench wealthy interests, with the productivity commission, RBA, federal treasury, ACCC, etc, all part of it
- etc
gsco has outed himself as a believer in our western civilisation and heritage in all its glory, and as being conservative, economically centrist, and very anti socialism.
actually gsco was always like this until he came back to living in Australia at the start of covid, and while stuck in covid lockdown started to get exposed to all the Australian (and other) socialist propaganda bureaus like the ABC, Guardian Australia, The Monthly, Quarterly Essay, SBS, Jacobin, etc. He then started doubting our western heritage and started expressing these doubts.
But gsco has now come full circle after realising just how deeply socialism has penetrated the collective Australian psyche and how badly it is hijacking major issues in western society like social justice, climate change, economics, free speech, freedom, democracy, gender and LGBTIQA+ issues...etc...the list is endless.
gsco realises that the Australian population is in a socialist driven anti western civilisation slumber, and he even fell for it for a while like most of the population has - but never again.
harrycoopr wrote:People people... once again it's really simple.
The Voice has been asked for by Aboriginal people. Constitutional recognition finally takes place after 230+ years of colonisation. Colonisation has affected the majority of Aboriginal cultures that continues today...hence the Gap.
The Voice simply allows the first people here to have an input into issues that affect them. It finally gives RESPECT to people and their ancestors and heritage to be heard.
It's not about race. It's not dividing anybody. It's not a threat to whiteys precious privileges.
It's really simple. The LNP could've easily gone bipartisan on this but they're so desperate for political recognition after the corrupt farce of the last LNP government they decided to make it a political football. The Spud knew it's his only chance to take on Albo. Disgusting but typical rightwing politics.
It's really simple.
Trying to stay out of this now, but that's pretty much it in a nutshell.
Unfortunately I think No will get up. But I think the LNP have caused brand damage with progressive higher socio economic voters in the seats they need to win to form government. They may win this battle, but lose war so to speak.
Yes they had to turn what could have been a celebratory uniting moment for Australia into a toxic shit show....
Sad.
Ha ha...jesus GSCO, you make ChatGPT sound like Ricky Gervais.
Perhaps a core weakness of The Voice concept (an advisory committee) and Yes campaign that seems to be glossed over in the debate is that the concept is likely to be a substantial overpromise? Months ago, I listened to an emotional MP's speech talking of how, at last, through The Voice we would be able to close the gap, fix health, housing, alcoholism, economic disadvantage etc. In her mind, it seemed to have magic powers. As a listener I just thought "wow" that is not the real world.
At the various organisations I have worked at forms of staff consultive committees have been helpful here and there but have not been able to solve the most challenging issues facing the workplace.
At a national level, if a party proposed setting up a broadly based advisory committee as THE game changing solution to deeply complex areas of policy and program implementation such as:
- energy policy
- housing affordability
- gambling addiction
- flood mitigation
- refugee immigrant disadvantage
would the population be inspired to applaud such a move and have high expectations for good outcomes? Would they campaign in the streets for the advisory committee concept and discuss it in glowing terms most nights on the ABC for months?. Or would there be a degree of skepticism?
If struggling, unprofitable company XYZ proposed in a high profile slickly marketed announcement to the market and shareholders that they had finally found the solution to their troubles - a new broadly based staff advisory committee would be set up to advise the Board and the Executive - I can guarrantee that the share price would plummet simply due to it being seen as a massive overpromise and evidence that the Board had no answers and were lost at sea.
The Voice concept is aiming to tackle challenges that, in various forms, exist throughout the world that everwhere have proven some of the hardest societal issues to solve. If advisory committees were the big lever, the big answer to socio-economic disadvantage in its most entrenched forms, the evidence would be everywhere.
"Nothing else has worked so let us try this" does not cut it as a sound justification for doing something in government, business, sport and our personal lives unless the "something" can stand on its own two feet. It has not been a reassurring message to the Australian people.
Barrack Obama won the Presidency and somehow a Nobel Peace Prize on the "Hope and Change" message. With all the powers of being POTUS and a lot of goodwill and support, he struggled to make much difference over 8 years. Ideas are easy. Implementation is the challenge.
That is one reason why people want more detail - they sense a substantial overpromise and under delivery hidden behind the Yes messaging, which is no good for anyone and especially FNP. Unrealistic expectations can create credibility issues which in turn make the advice given less effective and implementation harder if The Voice gets up. The campaign has created a huge weight of expectations on the committee. There is the saying - "To every complex problem, there is a simple solution and it is usually wrong".
Think I fell into a portal into a parallel dimension...
Agreeing with Chris Kenny...
frog wrote:Perhaps a core weakness of The Voice concept (an advisory committee) and Yes campaign that seems to be glossed over in the debate is that the concept is likely to be a substantial overpromise? Months ago, I listened to an emotional MP's speech talking of how, at last, through The Voice we would be able to close the gap, fix health, housing, alcoholism, economic disadvantage etc. In her mind, it seemed to have magic powers. As a listener I just thought "wow" that is not the real world.
At the various organisations I have worked at forms of staff consultive committees have been helpful here and there but have not been able to solve the most challenging issues facing the workplace.
At a national level, if a party proposed setting up a broadly based advisory committee as THE game changing solution to deeply complex areas of policy and program implementation such as:
- energy policy
- housing affordability
- gambling addiction
- flood mitigation
- refugee immigrant disadvantage
would the population be inspired to applaud such a move and have high expectations for good outcomes? Would they campaign in the streets for the advisory committee concept and discuss it in glowing terms most nights on the ABC for months?. Or would there be a degree of skepticism?If struggling, unprofitable company XYZ proposed in a high profile slickly marketed announcement to the market and shareholders that they had finally found the solution to their troubles - a new broadly based staff advisory committee would be set up to advise the Board and the Executive - I can guarrantee that the share price would plummet simply due to it being seen as a massive overpromise and evidence that the Board had no answers and were lost at sea.
The Voice concept is aiming to tackle challenges that, in various forms, exist throughout the world that everwhere have proven some of the hardest societal issues to solve. If advisory committees were the big lever, the big answer to socio-economic disadvantage in its most entrenched forms, the evidence would be everywhere.
"Nothing else has worked so let us try this" does not cut it as a sound justification for doing something in government, business, sport and our personal lives unless the "something" can stand on its own two feet. It has not been a reassurring message to the Australian people.
Barrack Obama won the Presidency and somehow a Nobel Peace Prize on the "Hope and Change" message. With all the powers of being POTUS and a lot of goodwill and support, he struggled to make much difference over 8 years. Ideas are easy. Implementation is the challenge.
That is one reason why people want more detail - they sense a substantial overpromise and under delivery hidden behind the Yes messaging, which is no good for anyone and especially FNP. Unrealistic expectations can create credibility issues which in turn make the advice given less effective and implementation harder if The Voice gets up. The campaign has created a huge weight of expectations on the committee. There is the saying - "To every complex problem, there is a simple solution and it is usually wrong".
Well balanced thoughtful post.
andy-mac wrote:Think I fell into a portal into a parallel dimension...
Agreeing with Chris Kenny...https://www.instagram.com/reel/CxNq3e0BBr1/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
He was actually involved in its creation in some way, so no surprises, probably a good thing for Sky News in a weird way, makes them look less bias in reporting and creates clicks and comments.
BTW. regarding the video itself, i shouldn't need to point out the obvious, but the real problem here is changing the constitution dividing us down the lines of race, that will be cemented forever.
Thats very different to other programs mentioned, although yeah ideally we should completely do away with any mention of race and have policy that treats people based on need only*, but lets be real we are still some way to get to that point, maybe in 50 years time.
So crew are desperately seeking [YES] Votes...but from where?
Anarchist Punk tbb will drum up some hardcore support from comrades.
[YES] Vic Socialists
https://victoriansocialists.org.au/news/voice-to-parliament
[Critical YES] Socialist Alliance (Vote with Green Left)
https://socialist-alliance.org/news/2023-01-19/voice-parliament-has-be-m...
https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/socialist-alliance-reaffirms-critic....
[YES] Socialist Alternative
https://internationalsocialist.net/en/2023/09/australia
https://redflag.org.au/article/racism-and-referendum
[Boycott] Socialist Equality Party (Politically Neutral)
Note: Great investigative Journos if ya wanna punch holes...lacks constructive focus!
Not saying they're Drama queens but they can stage manage better than Kylie!
https://www.wsws.org/en/topics/event/2023-voice-referendum-active-boycott
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/09/14/kbwm-s14.html
[YES] Communist Party
https://cpa.org.au/guardian/issue-2045/yes-to-the-voice/
Unions Pledge for [YES]
https://yes.ausunions.io/
gsco wrote:seeds wrote:gsco has outed himself. Talk of communist takeover and now God.
gsco has outed himself as one of those stupid people who got his hopes up with the ALP. Never again.
gsco has realised that the ALP has its imagination and policy responses stuck squarely in socialist ideology and themes in which everything in life is a communist struggle of oppressed vs oppressors:
- dividing Australia into ethic, gender, racial, etc, groups being oppressed by white male supremacy and colonial invaders and murderers (for instance The Voice)
- workers supposedly being exploited by corporations
- wages supposedly not keeping up with productivity gains
- labour supposedly losing its slice of the business income pie
- evil corporate profits and price gauging supposedly being the cause inflation
- economics supposedly is a conspiracy to entrench wealthy interests, with the productivity commission, RBA, federal treasury, ACCC, etc, all part of it
- etcgsco has outed himself as a believer in our western civilisation and heritage in all its glory, and as being conservative, economically centrist, and very anti socialism.
actually gsco was always like this until he came back to living in Australia at the start of covid, and while stuck in covid lockdown started to get exposed to all the Australian (and other) socialist propaganda bureaus like the ABC, Guardian Australia, The Monthly, Quarterly Essay, SBS, Jacobin, etc. He then started doubting our western heritage and started expressing these doubts.
But gsco has now come full circle after realising just how deeply socialism has penetrated the collective Australian psyche and how badly it is hijacking major issues in western society like social justice, climate change, economics, free speech, freedom, democracy, gender and LGBTIQA+ issues...etc...the list is endless.
gsco realises that the Australian population is in a socialist driven anti western civilisation slumber, and he even fell for it for a while like most of the population has - but never again.
Here we go again!! More ridiculous assertions that need calling out... all your "supposedly's", conspiracy theories aside, touch on real issues affecting ppls lives. Minority groups seeking equality, calling out abuses of power, getting the rich to pay their fair share, protecting workers against being ripped off. We see these issues everyday on the news, everywhere around the world. The lefts struggle is always against injustice and greed which the right try to maintain. Corruption occurs everywhere, both sides yes, but overall where theres riches theres ppl trying to exploit and protect it to the detriment of others. The commonsense and obviousness of justice somehow escapes many ppl...
Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x
The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.
Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.
Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.
The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.
Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??
Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28
References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28