The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

bluediamond started the topic in

Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

AndyM Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 10:05am

“its the city Aboriginal generally of mixed race”

You mean the ones that are less violent because they’re further from their culture, right Indo?

adam12 Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 11:05am

"It's the mixed raced city Aboriginals seeking money and power and revenge just using those bush Aboriginals as pawns and you can read all about it because thank God Jacinta Price exposed it all with her FOI powers, here it is on the niaa government website, and I've been to some of those communities so I know and if you don't think like me you are just naive and have a nutty race based revenge type mentality like those generally mixed raced city Aboriginals seeking money and power with their revenge type mentality,"

What a piece of shit this guy is.

indo-dreaming Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 11:48am

Yay lets just make up quotes of each other of things we didnt say

My turn:

"Im Adam, im a kook from the city, i failed law so become a painter, im the kind of guy that just endlessly verbally abuses others that dont agree with me even picking on their spelling or grammar etc, you know the kind of guy i am, im the same type of guy that also treats their missus like a piece of shit verbally abusing them telling them they are no good, cause you know it makes me feel good about myself."

What a piece of shit this guy is.

adam12 Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 11:50am

Wow, sick burn you racist nuffy. I live in the country, my neighbors are sheep, passed law, no missus, and what I quoted were your words, you can read them yourself in your posts above,

Jelly Flater Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 11:58am

… ‘ i better get out and about and ditch this screen… ‘

…‘we might have issues that could have been prevented through applying some common sense..’

;);)

AlfredWallace Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 12:04pm

Jelly Flater wrote:
… ‘ i better get out and about and ditch this screen… ‘

…‘we might have issues that could have been prevented through applying some common sense..’

;);)

Common sense, it’s just not that common…..,these days, as highlighted by the one trick pony. AW

Jelly Flater Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 12:10pm

https://m.

&pp=ygUNYnJpZ2dzIHJhcHBlcg%3D%3D

indo-dreaming Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 12:23pm

adam12 wrote:
Wow, sick burn you racist nuffy. I live in the country, my neighbors are sheep, passed law, no missus, and what I quoted were your words, you can read them yourself in your posts above,

Um nah dude, mixing up peoples words from different post to make your own quote to look like its something they said is low.

But it's pretty clear the type of person you are spewing your personal abuse at me in every post, so zero surprise you have no missus.

And yeah im the racist one, because i support treating people based on need and not race.

Anyway, I will try to go back to ignoring your post because i dont care if someone agrees or disagrees with me, if they start spewing pointless un provoked abuse at me, i got no time at all for them.

In a similar vein to what sameaswas said yesterday while there is zero things i agree with Supa on and he drives me crazy at times, i do respect that he can share differing views or debate without pointless abuse. (same with a few others)

adam12 Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 12:27pm

"you know the kind of guy i am, im the same type of guy that also treats their missus like a piece of shit verbally abusing them telling them they are no good, cause you know it makes me feel good about myself."
And not that it is any of your business, I've never commented on your family, but I was sharing my life with a woman, who I treated like a queen, she contracted lung cancer and died in 2003. So fuck off.

indo-dreaming Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 12:33pm

Well im sorry to hear of your loss, honestly wouldn't have said that if id known that.

adam12 Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 12:54pm

Fuck off.
I don't need apologies and sympathy from a racist dip shit like you.
(shout out to Hutchy 19 if you are reading this)

indo-dreaming Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 1:02pm

Maybe it explains your bitterness and hate of the world though, you clearly have issues.

You were the guy that was mates with Hutchy ...

I remember some leftie here was...ha ha thats a classic he made me feel woke.

adam12 Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 1:13pm

FFS dickhead, I'm not bitter or hateful about anything. I detest uninformed, uneducated racists like you, that's all.
Why don't you shut the fuck up with all your racist nonsense?
Why keep coming on here with all the right wing talking points, lies and misinformation aimed at denying FNP the right to have a say?
What have they ever done to you?
It's you that comes across as bitter and hateful, it's you that thinks about "mixed race city elite" FNP who seek "money, power and revenge".
FNP just want to have a say.
What the fuck is wrong with that?
What sort of a cunt would go on this surfing website all day and night attacking them for something so simple, gentle and deserved?
You can ignore me all you want but if you keep posting your bullshit I will keep coming on here and pointing out what racist bullshit it is and defending these people that cunts like you have been fucking over for 200 years.
Now fuck off and look after your own family.

indo-dreaming Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 1:07pm

Well yeah just completely intolerant of views that don't align with yours, and yeah of course those who have views that dont align with yours are always labeled as this or that.

sameaswas Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 1:12pm

adam12 wrote:
Sameaswas,
"The question on the ballot paper will be: “A Proposed Law: to alter the Constitution to recognise the First Peoples of Australia by establishing an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice. Do you approve this proposed alteration?”

The question, and the proposed new s129, have been available on the AEC website for a long time.
The sample ballot paper was released to show the voting format.

adam my post was specifically show me the ballot paper not a facsimily of a generic copy.

this wednesday p.m. allbanese is telling us the day of reffo and i expect the ballot paper in his hand for all to see so we all know exactly what they want.

from what i have seen so far from the yes23 not expecting one to be shown, looking forward to what transpires.

truebluebasher Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 1:22pm

Clarification for Ticked off Voters
Don't talk to me about (Savings Provisions)
You'll do well to avoid this Dreamtime Filibuster...
Long Winded informal books of secrets should be kept from public...Yawn!

Before we start : Yes! Despite never Voting tbb was also Volunteer Vote scrutineer.
These days ya gotta have the latest precise Vax combo for each particular VIP Closed Shop seat.
Not sure if ya have to be enrolled now...usually the last thing they ask!
Elections are not just for Voters...any can Volunteer in many ways...tbb is doin' that right here & now!

Even Kids can kick the shit outta AEC.
AEC are happy to hand out AEC / Sponsored footballs to kids, despite being illegal for Kids to vote.
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=1714105838639970&set=pb.10006940275...

(Mark of The Beast) Exclusive to #1swellnet

Part 1....(Historic Oz Referendum Voting procedures on Ballots)
>.... 1928 Yes [X] or No [X] (eg: Making or Marking a Claim)
1928 Change was due to dual Senate/Reffo [ Cheaper / Universal Format ]
1928 -1967 Yes [1] or No [2] Returned Single [1] Digit ballots were said to be counted
1967 - 2023 [Yes] or [No] Campaigns Vote [YES] less conflicting than Vote [X] Yes

Can check Campaigns (Confusing) No War Vote [X] Yes > (Emphatic) Vote [YES] Aborigines
Note : Independently searched all ultra rare Referendum Papers to establish timeline shift.
Don't lose this copy...no one else covers this...take ages to source this boring info!

Part 2... (Other Oz Governance Forms)

Census 1911-1966 = [A] As instructed set of initials given
1971 - 1986 = [_/] Demo as outside box is fine = _[/]
1991(Current) = [-] Mistakes [ / ] over [-]
Note : Independently searched all Census Forms to source each transformation stage!
Don't lose this rare copy..(Take ya Hours to research these boring little boxes.)

Tax
>... 1998 [A] As in instructed Initials
1998? = [X] DIY Tax Pack (Pre www uploads are rare)

Medicare = [_/] ( Pre www uploads are rare )

Part 3...(Variation on a Theme)
Govt [ ] Format changes thru all Departments [#] [Y/N] [_/] [X] [-]
Hence all are ever in a state of confusion leading to frustration...now anger & challenges.
Explains why we get to here & how & why tbb is wasting his Sunday on this Shit!
Slightly less boring than shopping for a Suit for Daughter's Wedding...

Each / every Reffo + lots were independently sourced just to gauge this above intel.
AEC are not big fans of sharing Historic Vote Papers or Vote Counting Procedures
Ain't no Expert researching how we landed in this shit...good luck to them.

However if one perseveres ya may get closer to some sorta consensus!

Part 4...(States)
NSW Electoral Commission (Formality Guidelines - Referendums & Polls) # Voting Anomaly

* Formal Votes (Counted) Explains impossibly high (Formal) / Compliance rate! # Voting Anomalies
#4 Unnecessary marks or writing (eg: Dick Pics / F.U. / Smiley) All count as Votes.
Accepted = YES [_/] NO [X] ... YES [_/] NO [_/]... YES [X] NO [X]
Accepted = _/YES [ ] _/ NO [ ]...YES [_/X] NO [X_/]
Accepted = NO ...Never ... Against (or) YES... Good ... Approve
Accepted = YES [_/] + NO [X]
Donkey Vote [1][2][3][4][5] Is also counted

Recap : Each State has own Informal Savings Provisions...
tbb's research noted States continued [X] models for 20 yrs more...despite Feds switching [X] > [1] [2].
Not checked fully...but it wouldn't surprise if Fed (vs) States conflict on certain Informal Voting!
Can read NSW [YES] [NO] (vs) Current AEC Fed Referendum...
This being the driving force to count more informal Votes as Formal by Intent. (Earlier law was Stricter!)

*Informal % of Anomaly of (Informal Votes) ranked #1-( Above #4 scribble 10% of 4.1% 'Informal')
(#3) 16% of 4.1% informal > Blank Paper is handed in.
Voter changes the Wording by adding or deleting words
Dual Marking that Conflicts YES [X] NO [X]
Non English "Answer" ( eg: Federal -accepts French 'Non'...etc ) Reads as Non decipherable!
Mark or Initial or Nickname that can [I.D] The Voter
Indecisive Vote : [ I Guess / Maybe / Not Sure ]

Qld :
(#3) [Required Boxes] Are not Filled (Same as Blank)
(#2) 25% of 4.1% informal Votes = Number Squares are filled with [_/] [X] (Confusing / Conflicting)

Part 5 ...(Senate)
(#1)48% of 4.1% informal Votes = Fed Senate : Non-sequential numbers (Confusing / Conflicting)

(Links)
Salute these sites for sharing Returning Officer's Taboo scrutineering
https://elections.nsw.gov.au/elections/how-voting-works/voting-in-new-so...
https://australianpolitics.com/voting/informal

adam12 Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 1:22pm

Sameas, it's all there for anyone to see, they aren't hiding anything, it's no secret, no tricky shit.
If they were hiding anything you would have known about it long ago, the question, the ballot paper, the voting system, all have been public for a long time. The generic copy is the ballot paper, the question has been made available for all to see. It won't be changed. You can decide your answer now and turn up and put yes or no on the day.

sameaswas Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 1:33pm

adam12 wrote:
Sameas, it's all there for anyone to see, they aren't hiding anything, it's no secret, no tricky shit.
If they were hiding anything you would have known about it long ago, the question, the ballot paper, the voting system, all have been public for a long time. The generic copy is the ballot paper, the question has been made available for all to see. It won't be changed. You can decide your answer now and turn up and put yes or no on the day.

i want to see the exact ballot paper on wednesday.

adam12 Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 1:35pm

"You were the guy that was mates with Hutchy ...

I remember some leftie here was...ha ha thats a classic he made me feel woke."

Fuck you are a dickhead.
The shout out to my mate Hutchy 19 was because he was there in 2003 and helped me and understands.
And FYI dip shit, Huthy 19 is no leftie or "woke", he is further right than you will ever be, we have had great disagreements on politics over the years which I have enjoyed and still do, had one the other day, but I respect his opinions because he is informed and well educated and qualified and can string a coherent sentence together and learned to spell and form his own opinions without parroting racist bullshit from the internet like you do.

indo-dreaming Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 1:46pm

No shit sherlock thats why he made me feel woke, as his views were way way more conservative than mine.

No surprise he helped you out, conservatives tend to do that old school family values.

Yeah i apologies for my racist view towards white people, but white people and the west are self destructive and losing the plot, and white chicks dont do much for me.

adam12 Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 1:50pm

He helped me because he is a mate, politics had nothing to do with it, and conservatives don't give a fuck about other people generally, the No vote is a good example of that.
He thinks you are a dickhead by the way.
" and white chicks dont do much for me. "
And it's comments like that that prove he is right.

indo-dreaming Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 1:56pm

truebluebasher wrote:
Clarification for Ticked off Voters
Don't talk to me about (Savings Provisions)
You'll do well to avoid this Dreamtime Filibuster...
Long Winded informal books of secrets should be kept from public...Yawn!

Before we start : Yes! Despite never Voting tbb was also Volunteer Vote scrutineer.
These days ya gotta have the latest precise Vax combo for each particular VIP Closed Shop seat.
Not sure if ya have to be enrolled now...usually the last thing they ask!
Elections are not just for Voters...any can Volunteer in many ways...tbb is doin' that right here & now!

Even Kids can kick the shit outta AEC.
AEC are happy to hand out AEC / Sponsored footballs to kids, despite being illegal for Kids to vote.
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=1714105838639970&set=pb.10006940275...

(Mark of The Beast) Exclusive to #1swellnet

Part 1....(Historic Oz Referendum Voting procedures on Ballots)
>.... 1928 Yes [X] or No [X] (eg: Making or Marking a Claim)
1928 Change was due to dual Senate/Reffo [ Cheaper / Universal Format ]
1928 -1967 Yes [1] or No [2] Returned Single [1] Digit ballots were said to be counted
1967 - 2023 [Yes] or [No] Campaigns Vote [YES] less conflicting than Vote [X] Yes

Can check Campaigns (Confusing) No War Vote [X] Yes > (Emphatic) Vote [YES] Aborigines
Note : Independently searched all ultra rare Referendum Papers to establish timeline shift.
Don't lose this copy...no one else covers this...take ages to source this boring info!

Part 2... (Other Oz Governance Forms)

Census 1911-1966 = [A] As instructed set of initials given
1971 - 1986 = [_/] Demo as outside box is fine = _[/]
1991(Current) = [-] Mistakes [ / ] over [-]
Note : Independently searched all Census Forms to source each transformation stage!
Don't lose this rare copy..(Take ya Hours to research these boring little boxes.)

Tax
>... 1998 [A] As in instructed Initials
1998? = [X] DIY Tax Pack (Pre www uploads are rare)

Medicare = [_/] ( Pre www uploads are rare )

Part 3...(Variation on a Theme)
Govt [ ] Format changes thru all Departments [#] [Y/N] [_/] [X] [-]
Hence all are ever in a state of confusion leading to frustration...now anger & challenges.
Explains why we get to here & how & why tbb is wasting his Sunday on this Shit!
Slightly less boring than shopping for a Suit for Daughter's Wedding...

Each / every Reffo + lots were independently sourced just to gauge this above intel.
AEC are not big fans of sharing Historic Vote Papers or Vote Counting Procedures
Ain't no Expert researching how we landed in this shit...good luck to them.

However if one perseveres ya may get closer to some sorta consensus!

Part 4...(States)
NSW Electoral Commission (Formality Guidelines - Referendums & Polls) # Voting Anomaly

* Formal Votes (Counted) Explains impossibly high (Formal) / Compliance rate! # Voting Anomalies
#4 Unnecessary marks or writing (eg: Dick Pics / F.U. / Smiley) All count as Votes.
Accepted = YES [_/] NO [X] ... YES [_/] NO [_/]... YES [X] NO [X]
Accepted = _/YES [ ] _/ NO [ ]...YES [_/X] NO [X_/]
Accepted = NO ...Never ... Against (or) YES... Good ... Approve
Accepted = YES [_/] + NO [X]
Donkey Vote [1][2][3][4][5] Is also counted

Recap : Each State has own Informal Savings Provisions...
tbb's research noted States continued [X] models for 20 yrs more...despite Feds switching [X] > [1] [2].
Not checked fully...but it wouldn't surprise if Fed (vs) States conflict on certain Informal Voting!
Can read NSW [YES] [NO] (vs) Current AEC Fed Referendum...
This being the driving force to count more informal Votes as Formal by Intent. (Earlier law was Stricter!)

*Informal % of Anomaly of (Informal Votes) ranked #1-( Above #4 scribble 10% of 4.1% 'Informal')
(#3) 16% of 4.1% informal > Blank Paper is handed in.
Voter changes the Wording by adding or deleting words
Dual Marking that Conflicts YES [X] NO [X]
Non English "Answer" ( eg: Federal -accepts French 'Non'...etc ) Reads as Non decipherable!
Mark or Initial or Nickname that can [I.D] The Voter
Indecisive Vote : [ I Guess / Maybe / Not Sure ]

Qld :
(#3) [Required Boxes] Are not Filled (Same as Blank)
(#2) 25% of 4.1% informal Votes = Number Squares are filled with [_/] [X] (Confusing / Conflicting)

Part 5 ...(Senate)
(#1)48% of 4.1% informal Votes = Fed Senate : Non-sequential numbers (Confusing / Conflicting)

(Links)
Salute these sites for sharing Returning Officer's Taboo scrutineering
https://elections.nsw.gov.au/elections/how-voting-works/voting-in-new-so...
https://australianpolitics.com/voting/informal

BTW. You havent uncovered one interesting aspect that was mentioned in a video i saw today, about the one minute mark.

The AEC actually use ticks for yes and X for no in some of their things.

And in the video also talks about how this was an issue before the 99 refredredrum and was even a legal challenge.

sameaswas Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 2:03pm

southernraw wrote:
@sameaswas, just in regards to your second last post;
Have you seen the documentary, 'In my Blood it Runs'?
Great doco that follows the life of a young indigenous boy.
When you're looking at positively changing the generational trauma, i think this is a better place to start in the healing process.
Looking through the eyes of a young fella who's living it.
Check it out if you get the chance. It's on various streaming services.

s.r. eventually looked up doco about 3yrs of 10yr old, yikes! 1hr 24mins no way.

so i looked at the summary's or comments what it was about.

one of em said it highlighted the failure of the education system for fnp, what? don't turn up to school?

are you aware that scomo's mob in their last year passed a bill for 4 lodgeing high schools to be built in 4 isolated regions to house and feed isolated communities kids? there are parents driveing up to 3-4 hrs a day to take kids to school, unfrknblvble but true.

albo has canned 2 of those schools and no mention by m.s.m. or a.b.c. or the voice elites...hypocrites me thinks.
allso scomo's mob passed a bill where all employees on fnp communities must eventually be aborigine, health, educators, social workers, police etc etc. locals have priority. good idea imo.
so they put the feelers out...local, could'nt find ppl with education to suit the training.
so the govt went ok lets try the city fnp...city, yes more sucess but no way they wanted to work outback when training complete.

adam12 Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 2:12pm

"The AEC actually use ticks for yes and X for no in some of their things."
They used them in the plebiscite on gay marriage.
A plebiscite is not a referendum.
Educate yourself on the difference. and why crosses are not used in referendums.
The voting system and not using crosses was affirmed by Dutton and the LNP when the Machinery Act was passed by them with the referendum legislation this year. It was John Howard's system he used for the Republic Referendum.
Not a peep out of them about crosses when it went to a vote in Parliament this year.
They have only raised it now because they have run out of excuses for the No vote and are desperately trying to find some to feed to the uniformed dumb racist shits like you and like the gullible turd you are you have fallen for it.
It's their system, they came up with it when Howard was PM, not to count crosses. They were right which is why it was adopted and became law.
Educate yourself.

GuySmiley Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 2:28pm

Hoping you are travelling well adam12, all the best

indo-dreaming Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 2:34pm

Educate yourself...ha ha

Mate you are the most narrow minded uneducated person here but still always think you know better than those that are much more qualified be it legal article's, politician's, experts in a field etc.

Why do think it was an issue before the 99 referendum?

And no doubt will be an issue going into any future referendum

Anyone with a little common sense can see the potential problem and unfairness.

Im sure it will be fixed one day, it might not happen for a long time but it will be fixed because it doesn't make sense not too and will always be an issue.

Lets just hope the next referendum is one you want to vote No too, im certain your tune will change very quickly.

andy-mac Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 2:37pm

Geez what Dutton and co are doing trying to take away legitimacy from the above politics AEC is disgusting. Fark off to Trump's USA if you want to carry on with this nonsense. What if the Yes gets up, it will be because it was rigged???? Will Dutton be calling for people to take to the streets?
They call themselves (as well as some of the commentators here) conservatives yet go against the very institutions that keep the country together. Farken muppets. That's not being conservative, that is just being a wrecker of what little trust the public has in these institutions.

indo-dreaming Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 2:51pm

andy-mac wrote:
Geez what Dutton and co are doing trying to take away legitimacy from the above politics AEC is disgusting. Fark off to Trump's USA if you want to carry on with this nonsense. What if the Yes gets up, it will be because it was rigged???? Will Dutton be calling for people to take to the streets?
They call themselves (as well as some of the commentators here) conservatives yet go against the very institutions that keep the country together. Farken muppets. That's not being conservative, that is just being a wrecker of what little trust the public has in these institutions.

The comparisons are ridiculous, Trump called foul after the election.

This is the opposite, its going look we have a potential issue and an unequal aspect of the system, lets deal with it now in some sensible manner to ensure there is no issues, if the policy is to hard to change reprint those ballots so there is two boxes one for Yes one for No.

And as ive shown this was an issue in 99 nothing to do with Trump, and its going to be an issue in every future referendum its not going to magically go away.

adam12 Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 2:49pm

Thanks Guy. Much appreciated. I'm fine, happy, got plenty of good waves this year which as we all know makes all the difference.
Indo dipshit, I'll be back to deal with you later. Got lawns to mow. Loved the "most uneducated, narrow minded" bit though. Maybe ask the others on this forum what they think about who's more narrow minded and uneducated. Get some objective opinions.

basesix Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 2:50pm

Absolutely, a-m, it is not conservatives. Conservatives care about our international reputation, even if they disagree with something in principle locally, and have faith and trust in our institutions, as you say.

AndyM Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 3:01pm

What do others on this forum think of Indo?
He’s generally beneath contempt but occasionally he’s definitely worthy of straight-up, good old-fashioned contempt.

andy-mac Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 3:02pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
andy-mac wrote:
Geez what Dutton and co are doing trying to take away legitimacy from the above politics AEC is disgusting. Fark off to Trump's USA if you want to carry on with this nonsense. What if the Yes gets up, it will be because it was rigged???? Will Dutton be calling for people to take to the streets?
They call themselves (as well as some of the commentators here) conservatives yet go against the very institutions that keep the country together. Farken muppets. That's not being conservative, that is just being a wrecker of what little trust the public has in these institutions.

The comparisons are ridiculous, Trump called foul after the election.

This is the opposite, its going look we have a potential issue and an unequal aspect of the system, lets deal with it now in some sensible manner to ensure there is no issues, if the policy is to hard to change reprint those ballots so there is two boxes one for Yes one for No.

And as ive shown this was an issue in 99 nothing to do with Trump, and its going to be an issue in every future referendum its not going to magically go away.

No mate, it is a mudslinging at an important impartial Australian institution for cheap perceived political advantage. Farking disgusting really.
But this is becoming the MO for the LNP and their supporters. Disrupt and wreck is all they have.

indo-dreaming Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 3:11pm

adam12 wrote:
e
Indo dipshit, I'll be back to deal with you later. Got lawns to mow. Loved the "most uneducated, narrow minded" bit though. Maybe ask the others on this forum what they think about who's more narrow minded and uneducated. Get some objective opinions.

This forum if full of brain washed lefties, so we both know what the answer will be.

But the reality is if you want to educated on something you need to take in a broad range of views from varying sources.

The problem for you is you dont take in a broad range of views so you are only ever getting half the story, and your only every looking at something from one perspective.

I dont do this, i listen to ABC most days and i will even listen to podcast that are left leaning like 7am and of course i will see what conservative media or experts are saying.

You dont do this, you just look from one angle and take one view and write any other view off .

That isnt being educated that being indoctrinated.

AndyM Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 3:18pm

Presumptuous Dreaming.

Supafreak Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 3:24pm

GuySmiley Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 3:28pm

Clearly I hope that the referendum gets up but it doesn’t I reckon Dutton and his reactionary party will get flogged next general election because to form government they will need to win the cities and the ‘teal’ electorates which on the whole support the referendum and progress.

Congratulations to the Victorian branch of the so-called liberal party for getting another far right christian conservative nut job elected in yesterday’s bi-election guaranteeing even further alienation with the broader community.

I used to think that the info-driveller only opened his mouth to change feet but after today’s bum splatter I now believe both feet are permanently lodged down his throat.

southernraw Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 3:33pm

sameaswas wrote:
southernraw wrote:
@sameaswas, just in regards to your second last post;
Have you seen the documentary, 'In my Blood it Runs'?
Great doco that follows the life of a young indigenous boy.
When you're looking at positively changing the generational trauma, i think this is a better place to start in the healing process.
Looking through the eyes of a young fella who's living it.
Check it out if you get the chance. It's on various streaming services.

s.r. eventually looked up doco about 3yrs of 10yr old, yikes! 1hr 24mins no way.

so i looked at the summary's or comments what it was about.

one of em said it highlighted the failure of the education system for fnp, what? don't turn up to school?

are you aware that scomo's mob in their last year passed a bill for 4 lodgeing high schools to be built in 4 isolated regions to house and feed isolated communities kids? there are parents driveing up to 3-4 hrs a day to take kids to school, unfrknblvble but true.

albo has canned 2 of those schools and no mention by m.s.m. or a.b.c. or the voice elites...hypocrites me thinks.
allso scomo's mob passed a bill where all employees on fnp communities must eventually be aborigine, health, educators, social workers, police etc etc. locals have priority. good idea imo.
so they put the feelers out...local, could'nt find ppl with education to suit the training.
so the govt went ok lets try the city fnp...city, yes more sucess but no way they wanted to work outback when training complete.

Hey mate. Yeah its probably worth watching to get context.
One of the threads i took from it was that institionalised education that has been the way in this country for 200 odd years is failing these kids and theres a better way for them that includes a going back to their roots and traditional spiritual connections to empower them, get a sense of belonging again in a country they feel alienated, and then build on their formal education from that platform. Something i think is terrific and a great foundation moving forward. I would consider this a good form of reparation...tweaking the education system to be more inclusive and focused on bringing them back closer to a sense of belonging and purpose.
@adam12 youre a saint. I dunno how you do it. That was some of the most vile stuff ive ever seen this morning.
As for my thoughts since its been raised.
Hes an absolute bottom dweller that brings nothing but calamity and white noise ( no pun intended) to this conversation.
Glad youre doing well and getting waves Adam12.

udo Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 3:47pm

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-08-27/native-seed-harvesting-in-lake-ca...

Jelly Flater Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 4:08pm

;)
Haha… posts another sky news clip and not long after exclaims :

‘… the reality is if you want to educated on something you need to take in a broad range of views from varying sources.’

- (education can also allow one to have the ability to compose a sentence)…

And then this gem of wisdom :

‘ That isnt being educated that being indoctrinated. ‘

- all from an actual brain washed, uneducated and indoctrinated fuckwit who accuses others of having issues and lacking common sense.

Farkkk… ‘You seriously couldn’t make this shit up.’ ;););)

https://m.

basesix Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 4:12pm

thanks udo, needed that. Refreshing example of 'contributing over commentating'. A reminder too, we come from a place that values humility over narcissism.
(loved the aerobics and igorrr JF.. both haunt my dreams!)

udo wrote:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-08-27/native-seed-harvesting-in-lake-ca...

Jelly Flater Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 4:14pm

@basesix
Fantasia of the unconscious ;)

AlfredWallace Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 4:31pm

AndyM wrote:
What do others on this forum think of Indo?
He’s generally beneath contempt but occasionally he’s definitely worthy of straight-up, good old-fashioned contempt.

I think Swellnet should demand that you are a paid up subscriber before being able to comment on any thread/topic etc. period.
It’s just the way it should be, fair and equitable for those who cough up.

I think they won’t go down that path through the fear of not attracting more viewers/subscribers .

I’ve been using my current moniker for the last 4 or so years, before that i used my real name. I made the change to a pseudonym to avoid the impulsive/compulsive nature of trolls. We have one amongst us.

The brief banter and plants discussion (Botany Nerds Ahoy) I’ve had with Indo and other botany contributors has been enjoyable, albeit its very short term and just a bit of fun and nothing that’ll change a ‘plants direction in life’, if you get my drift. We do have the chance to alter the course of another pressing matter.

We have a very serious and far reaching agenda in front of us as Australians.
We are a spoilt nation in many ways, but we carry guilt, all of us who are not First Nation people. We are living in somebody else’s backyard, but for some reasons we just cant manage to love thy neighbour. This needs to change dramatically and quickly.
We have torn the hearts, minds, skills and demeanour out of these beautiful people who had and have everything to share.
We all know the right thing we should do come the time to place your YES or NO.
For months, weeks, days,, whatever, the opposition to YES must be exhausted having been pirouetting on the tip of a sewing needle, trying to raise a storm about minor shit like, the wording, YES, NO, X, O, etc. knowing that eventually they’ll cop that needle up the date when they run out off excuses. They are running scared if i was an outside adjudicator.

I spent last night at a monumental birthday party with some aboriginal and non-aboriginal friends of mine, they are all worried, so am I a little, but generally most of the others guests 100 or so are pretty sure they are going to do the right thing like, Supafreak, Adam12, Andy-Mac, AndyM. GuySmiley, SouthernRaw, Jelly Flater, Blackers, Greenjam, Basesix and apologies to any of the good folk (that actually have a heart) I’ve left out.

So, at the end of the day, even though plants, surf and the biological world are my life, i quickly put all that aside so myself and others can share the love from the bottom of our hearts and stand up proudly for Australia’s First Nations People.

To answer your question Andy M, he’s a very, very, ordinary person, always thought so and always will. AW

Supafreak Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 4:21pm

AlfredWallace Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 4:29pm

basesix wrote:
thanks udo, needed that. Refreshing example of 'contributing over commentating'. A reminder too, we come from a place that values humility over narcissism.
(loved the aerobics and igorrr JF.. both haunt my dreams!)

udo wrote:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-08-27/native-seed-harvesting-in-lake-ca...

Basesix. good one mate, restoration is the key. AW

southernraw Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 4:30pm

Ripper post AW!
haha @supafreak. Thanks for the Sunday laugh.

basesix Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 5:24pm

Great post AW. Hope it doesn't get the usual 'brainwashed-progressives-patting-each-other-on-the-bum' dismissiveness, I find that those of us that post purely for a bit o' camaraderie (not to vanity publish opinion-pieces or memoir-extracts... to do so as a non-subscriber beggars belief) long posts are infrequent, and therefore meaningful.

AlfredWallace wrote:
AndyM wrote:
What do others on this forum think of Indo?
He’s generally beneath contempt but occasionally he’s definitely worthy of straight-up, good old-fashioned contempt.

I think Swellnet should demand that you are a paid up subscriber before being able to comment on any thread/topic etc. period.
It’s just the way it should be, fair and equitable for those who cough up.

I think they won’t go down that path through the fear of not attracting more viewers/subscribers .

I’ve been using my current moniker for the last 4 or so years, before that i used my real name. I made the change to a pseudonym to avoid the impulsive/compulsive nature of trolls. We have one amongst us.

The brief banter and plants discussion (Botany Nerds Ahoy) I’ve had with Indo and other botany contributors has been enjoyable, albeit its very short term and just a bit of fun and nothing that’ll change a ‘plants direction in life’, if you get my drift. We do have the chance to alter the course of another pressing matter.

We have a very serious and far reaching agenda in front of us as Australians.
We are a spoilt nation in many ways, but we carry guilt, all of us who are not First Nation people. We are living in somebody else’s backyard, but for some reasons we just cant manage to love thy neighbour. This needs to change dramatically and quickly.
We have torn the hearts, minds, skills and demeanour out of these beautiful people who had and have everything to share.
We all know the right thing we should do come the time to place your YES or NO.
For months, weeks, days,, whatever, the opposition to YES must be exhausted having been pirouetting on the tip of a sewing needle, trying to raise a storm about minor shit like, the wording, YES, NO, X, O, etc. knowing that eventually they’ll cop that needle up the date when they run out off excuses. They are running scared if i was an outside adjudicator.

I spent last night at a monumental birthday party with some aboriginal and non-aboriginal friends of mine, they are all worried, so am I a little, but generally most of the others guests 100 or so are pretty sure they are going to do the right thing like, Supafreak, Adam12, Andy-Mac, AndyM. GuySmiley, SouthernRaw, Jelly Flater, Blackers, Greenjam, Basesix and apologies to any of the good folk (that actually have a heart) I’ve left out.

So, at the end of the day, even though plants, surf and the biological world are my life, i quickly put all that aside so myself and others can share the love from the bottom of our hearts and stand up proudly for Australia’s First Nations People.

To answer your question Andy M, he’s a very, very, ordinary person, always thought so and always will. AW

indo-dreaming Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 5:43pm

AlfredWallace wrote:
AndyM wrote:
What do others on this forum think of Indo?
He’s generally beneath contempt but occasionally he’s definitely worthy of straight-up, good old-fashioned contempt.

I think Swellnet should demand that you are a paid up subscriber before being able to comment on any thread/topic etc. period.
It’s just the way it should be, fair and equitable for those who cough up.

I think they won’t go down that path through the fear of not attracting more viewers/subscribers .

I’ve been using my current moniker for the last 4 or so years, before that i used my real name. I made the change to a pseudonym to avoid the impulsive/compulsive nature of trolls. We have one amongst us.

The brief banter and plants discussion (Botany Nerds Ahoy) I’ve had with Indo and other botany contributors has been enjoyable, albeit its very short term and just a bit of fun and nothing that’ll change a ‘plants direction in life’, if you get my drift. We do have the chance to alter the course of another pressing matter.

We have a very serious and far reaching agenda in front of us as Australians.
We are a spoilt nation in many ways, but we carry guilt, all of us who are not First Nation people. We are living in somebody else’s backyard, but for some reasons we just cant manage to love thy neighbour. This needs to change dramatically and quickly.
We have torn the hearts, minds, skills and demeanour out of these beautiful people who had and have everything to share.
We all know the right thing we should do come the time to place your YES or NO.
For months, weeks, days,, whatever, the opposition to YES must be exhausted having been pirouetting on the tip of a sewing needle, trying to raise a storm about minor shit like, the wording, YES, NO, X, O, etc. knowing that eventually they’ll cop that needle up the date when they run out off excuses. They are running scared if i was an outside adjudicator.

I spent last night at a monumental birthday party with some aboriginal and non-aboriginal friends of mine, they are all worried, so am I a little, but generally most of the others guests 100 or so are pretty sure they are going to do the right thing like, Supafreak, Adam12, Andy-Mac, AndyM. GuySmiley, SouthernRaw, Jelly Flater, Blackers, Greenjam, Basesix and apologies to any of the good folk (that actually have a heart) I’ve left out.

So, at the end of the day, even though plants, surf and the biological world are my life, i quickly put all that aside so myself and others can share the love from the bottom of our hearts and stand up proudly for Australia’s First Nations People.

To answer your question Andy M, he’s a very, very, ordinary person, always thought so and always will. AW

Your entitled to your opinion, but there is a shit load of Australians including Aboriginals of all political views that disagree with you.

Supafreak Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 5:58pm

https://thenewdaily.com.au/finance/2023/08/26/michael-pascoe-peter-dutto.... Dutton is a populist politician who just isn’t popular……… The political reality is that Mr Dutton was always going to vote ‘No’, it was just a matter of how he would justify it.

soggydog Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 6:23pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
AlfredWallace wrote:
AndyM wrote:
What do others on this forum think of Indo?
He’s generally beneath contempt but occasionally he’s definitely worthy of straight-up, good old-fashioned contempt.

I think Swellnet should demand that you are a paid up subscriber before being able to comment on any thread/topic etc. period.
It’s just the way it should be, fair and equitable for those who cough up.

I think they won’t go down that path through the fear of not attracting more viewers/subscribers .

I’ve been using my current moniker for the last 4 or so years, before that i used my real name. I made the change to a pseudonym to avoid the impulsive/compulsive nature of trolls. We have one amongst us.

The brief banter and plants discussion (Botany Nerds Ahoy) I’ve had with Indo and other botany contributors has been enjoyable, albeit its very short term and just a bit of fun and nothing that’ll change a ‘plants direction in life’, if you get my drift. We do have the chance to alter the course of another pressing matter.

We have a very serious and far reaching agenda in front of us as Australians.
We are a spoilt nation in many ways, but we carry guilt, all of us who are not First Nation people. We are living in somebody else’s backyard, but for some reasons we just cant manage to love thy neighbour. This needs to change dramatically and quickly.
We have torn the hearts, minds, skills and demeanour out of these beautiful people who had and have everything to share.
We all know the right thing we should do come the time to place your YES or NO.
For months, weeks, days,, whatever, the opposition to YES must be exhausted having been pirouetting on the tip of a sewing needle, trying to raise a storm about minor shit like, the wording, YES, NO, X, O, etc. knowing that eventually they’ll cop that needle up the date when they run out off excuses. They are running scared if i was an outside adjudicator.

I spent last night at a monumental birthday party with some aboriginal and non-aboriginal friends of mine, they are all worried, so am I a little, but generally most of the others guests 100 or so are pretty sure they are going to do the right thing like, Supafreak, Adam12, Andy-Mac, AndyM. GuySmiley, SouthernRaw, Jelly Flater, Blackers, Greenjam, Basesix and apologies to any of the good folk (that actually have a heart) I’ve left out.

So, at the end of the day, even though plants, surf and the biological world are my life, i quickly put all that aside so myself and others can share the love from the bottom of our hearts and stand up proudly for Australia’s First Nations People.

To answer your question Andy M, he’s a very, very, ordinary person, always thought so and always will. AW

Your entitled to your opinion, but there is a shit load of Australians including Aboriginals of all political views that disagree with you.

Persistent, consistent, predictable. Not for turning, no inflection. That’s why Indo is best ignored. Which is hard since he is on a mission to outpost all and any conflicting viewpoints. No matter how based in racist fascism his posts normally are. A true cheerleader of the cunts. Bravo!

GuySmiley Sunday, 27 Aug 2023 at 6:56pm

…… but but but @soggydog apparently he’s generally open minded and not bound by ideology or what I prefer to think was really happening it was @stu taking the piss at @info’s expense

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