The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
@indo , what’s the “ bigger picture “ of what the voice will do if the Yes vote gets up ?
"Some even claim to be legal experts and try to make ridiculous arguments, but the reality is there is no single ethnic group in the constitution that has special rights and powers above others, and hopefully most Australians will have enough common sense to ensure things stay this way."
Hopefully most Australians understand the unique nature of the disenfranchisement and discrimination suffered by FNP in this country since colonialisation and are generous enough in spirit and intellect to grant their wishes as expressed in the Uluru Statement, and regard them as more than just an 'ethnic group'. Unfortunately some are just dumb, uneducated, semi literate cunts who blather endless racist bullshit on surfing websites they don't subscribe to.
adam12 wrote:Supafreak posts "sameaswas said “ leave the constitution alone, do not entrench racism and favouritism and division based on colour in our constitution. “ …….I really don’t know what to make of this . "
If you started at Henry Parkes' Tenterfield Oration (1889), considered the birth of Australian federation, and followed through the various conventions that led to the federation of the colonies and the enactment of the Constitution Act (1901) and specifically s51(xxvi) you would understand that "racism and favouratism and division based on colour" has been entrenched in our constitution since it's inception.
Some quotes from that time;" ‘the moment the Commonwealth obtains any legislative power at all it should
have the power to regulate the affairs of the people of
coloured or inferior races who are in the Commonwealth’."
Edmund Barton 1898 Australia’s first prime minister and
a founding justice of the High Court of Australia,"(s51(xxvi)...enables the Parliament to deal with people of any alien
race after they have entered the Commonwealth; to localise
them within defined areas, to restrict their migration, to
confine them to certain occupations, or to give them special
protection and secure their return after a certain period to
the country whence they came"
Quick and Gerran 'Annotated Constitution' 1901" ‘we want a discrimination based on
colour’.
Henry Higgins, Victorian Delegate and future High Court Justice, at the Melbourne Convention 1898.Many have argued over the years for the repeal of s51(xxvi), known as the "race power", (it was amended in the 1967 Referendum to include Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders), but only those who lack a knowledge and understanding of Australian history and the Constitution itself would say something like " “ leave the constitution alone, do not entrench racism and favouritism and division based on colour in our constitution. “
It was there from the beginning.
It is still there today.
Yet the No case still assert incorrectly that the Voice will be inserting race and division based on colour into our Constitution and the ignorant eat it up in spoonfuls.
thankyou adam for the info
some good points there, i knew about the s51(xvvi) and have stated early on in the debate that must be scrapped, everything else is historical fact, however ppl thought diff back then.
if the yes wins it will give more power to fnp than non indigs which is ironic cos it's the same as what the early founding fathers of federation said which you have quoted.
the 1967 referendum made us all equal and any failure of fnp's welfare is not for the lack of funds or effort, more so by the corruption (atsic) and lack of accoutability of beauracrats and their power hungry ruleing elite.
What’s this “ more power “ FNP will have ? What will this “ power “ do to you and the way you live ?
they say 'it's the principle' Supa. Really it's just wanting to be in control of the narrative. They don't want to lose the 'power' of being the loudest voice in the dialogue.
Like days of yore. White man declares he is superior, and determines race-in-residence is fauna, and their culture is shit, worthless, dirty, unGodly...
250ish years later, white men&women decide we are all the same, and other race should get over it, 'cause we are all born equal. All about control, Supa.
Supafreak,
Isn't it self evident in the wording of the amendment as to what the "more power" is intended to be? A constitutionally enshrined right to make representations to government, in all its forms, on whatever matters the holders of this right feel are material to them.
It is also evident that this "power" is to be available to some and not all.
We can all argue whether this right is warranted or not (clearly), based on our own internal calculus, but its intention, scope and the preferential basis upon which access to the right is allowed, is surely not up for debate.
As to the impact of the amendment if carried - good, bad or indifferent; FNP or not - nobody can say with certainty. Its a weighing of probabilities game only at this stage.
Cheers,
MJ
sameaswas "thankyou adam for the info
some good points there, i knew about the s51(xvvi) and have stated early on in the debate that must be scrapped, everything else is historical fact, however ppl thought diff back then.
if the yes wins it will give more power to fnp than non indigs which is ironic cos it's the same as what the early founding fathers of federation said which you have quoted.
the 1967 referendum made us all equal and any failure of fnp's welfare is not for the lack of funds or effort, more so by the corruption (atsic) and lack of accoutability of beauracrats and their power hungry ruleing elite."
You're welcome sameas, I don't see "more power", it's nuanced and taking into account the history of FNP since colonisation I see the Voice as guaranteeing them a say in the matters that affect them, something many other Australians already have under our political system as it stands, for example the Pharmacy Guild or the many other interest groups that have doors open to them that FNP find closed. It's about self determination more than power to me. They have had the right of self determination since Cook and Arthur Phillip showed up, they have been denied the right to exercise it since then. The Voice gives them a say in exercising it, not power, just a say.
I agree that some FNP in the past have ruined things and polluted the often heart felt and generous efforts made at reconciliation and providing representation. Geoff Clarke and the Framlington indigenous "mafia" that ruined ATSIC come to mind. I believe the Voice is something different and more democratic, and something with a great chance of positive change for all of us, not just FNP. Many, including some FNP disagree, but trying something, something they have asked for after long and careful consideration, is better than doing nothing to me.
The LNP themselves saw that back in 2015, which is why they started the process by asking FNP what they want and led to the Uluru Statement and the proposal for an enshrined Voice. We should give them that. It will not be some magical cure to their problems, but somewhere to re-start that they take ownership of rather than the old ways of telling them what they need and want.
And yes, the race power should be removed and as expressed by Chief Justice French in response to the recommendations of the 1988 Constitutional Commission "be replaced by a provision empowering the Commonwealth Parliament to make laws with respect to Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islander people: ‘Such laws are based not on race but on the special place of those peoples in the history of the nation"
But one referendum at a time, perhaps if the Voice proposal gets up the country may be accepting of further change and re-tuning of the Constitution Act to take into account of changing circumstances since 1900. Areas like the environment, water rights, mining and resource control come to mind.
Treating it as something set in stone and not to be altered seems counter productive to progress and ignores the fact that times change and our framework and system of governing need to adapt to that change. If not, you end up with a problem like the USA has with the "right to bear arms" 2nd amendment written at a time of musket guns that now is applied to AR 15's.
In spite of the hyperbole and attempts to undermine the Voice as some kind of Indigenous elitist takeover of our Constitution and democratic institutions, as FDR famously said "We have nothing to fear but fear itself".
So do the no voters feel as though by FNP having a voice to parliament , that somehow that takes something away from them and they are missing out and not being given a fair go in decisions that directly impact their lives ? Whatever happened to the giving selfless Australian ? Have we become a nation of takers corrupted by greed and a FOMO ?
FFS peoples.
Voting Yes is the least we could do as a nation for FNPs.
Supa,
Thanks for the engagement.
I think No voters, of which I'm presently one, will have a range of reasons as to why they vote that way. As will Yes voters I expect and on balance we will eventually arrive at the will of the nation one way or another.
For me FOMO is an overly glib way to address the insertion of a new chapter into the Constitution. Whilst esoteric perhaps I happen to think equity under the Constitution matters and the proposed amendment, as drafted, is literally designed to give - crudely put - one part of the population (Vote+Voice) and everyone else just (Vote) in terms of how they participate in the decisions that impact their lives to borrow your phrase.
And again we can all weigh whether or not we think that has a lot or a little value, or is justified based on either historic injustice or indigeneity or whatever else drives us and arrive at our own answer for the polling booth.
I would also disagree with the imputation that by voting No you're taking something away from anyone given this is about the creation of - and access to - a new right. If No gets up, which is by no means certain, not a single Australian loses anything in terms of their civic rights.
Cheers,
MJ
Well MJ.
If a Yes vote gets up, which is by no means certain, not a single Australian loses any thing in terms of civic rights.
Cheers ME
Hey Michael.
You stated "If No gets up, which is by no means certain, not a single Australian loses anything in terms of their civic rights."
Conversely, i'd say a no vote would be a step backwards for indigenous Australians, as there's no other alternative movement in place.
So maybe not a loss in your eyes, but in my eyes that's a big loss and lost opportunity.
When, if ever, would the next one come?
I'm not going to engage too much here, but feel it will be a very sad day for Australia if the No vote gets up. But for the vast majority of FNP's it will be absolutely heartbreaking.
All,
Will try and wrap a couple replies into one here and then I'm signing off for now, happy to leave space for others.
Agree, nobody loses any rights either if Yes gets up - no arguments there. However some, but not all Australians, will inarguably gain a big new one. That's a problem for me but I accept others see it as an acceptable trade off.
I also disagree with the notion that there's a morally right or wrong answer here, the result will simply be an expression of the democratic will of the people.
Have a good weekend all.
MJ
Interesting, a big difference between different families.. some have green-eyed monsters, one-upmanship and actually have a degree of schadenfreude with each other. Some families feel buoyed by each others' successes, genuine interest in each others' challenges; if one wins, we all win, if one needs a hand, we reach out. I have a combination of relatives. Needless to say, there are some I have drifted apart from, and some, we still enjoy catching up with each other.
I guess we build friendships through making this dichotomy be more on the healthy side in our lives. Less toxicity. And try to build a society that feels healthier in the same regard. But, y'know, damage and all.. we'll see. I'm voting yes.
Thanks for reply Michael J.
I reckon some Australians, not all, have already been living with rights that have been withheld from others, for about 200 odd years.
Now's a good time to bring the others to the party i reckon.
Civic rights eh? There's a can of worms that probably lies more in the eye of the beholder than some arbitrary rights that we're all given.
Cheers.
Nail on head, SR!
Aligns nicely with basesix’ post.
they say 'it's the principle' Supa. Really it's just wanting to be in control of the narrative. They don't want to lose the 'power' of being the loudest voice in the dialogue.
Like days of yore. White man declares he is superior, and determines race-in-residence is fauna, and their culture is shit, worthless, dirty, unGodly...
250ish years later, white men&women decide we are all the same, and other race should get over it, 'cause we are all born equal. All about control, Supa.
MJ said "If No gets up, which is by no means certain, not a single Australian loses anything in terms of their civic rights."
The same could equally be said if the Yes vote succeeds. Leaving aside whether the correct terminology is civic or civil rights, the Constitution has no Bill of Rights as in the USA, it does not enshrine whether expressly or by implication the notion of universal equality. The only rights it confers are the right to vote (Section 41), protection against acquisition of property on unjust terms (Section 51 (xxxi)), the right to a trial by jury (Section 80), freedom of religion (Section 116) and prohibition of discrimination on the basis of State of residency (Section 117).
A Yes or No vote prevailing will have no effect on those rights.
The Voice will provide a right to be heard for FNP on matters that relate to them, that can be listened to or ignored. A benign right that arguably should be self evident and not require express inclusion in the Constitution but due to the unique history of FNP in Australia they have asked for it to be enshrined.
It asks for little yet means a lot to them, and as stated it takes nothing away in terms of the rights of non FNP under our Constitution. FNP feel an inequality for not having a Voice which is why they asked for it, the No side argue that it is they who will suffer an inequality if it is granted.
I guess it boils down to whether as a non FNP you are prepared to accept this benign request by FNP or you wish to die on the hill of a perceived right to equality that under the Constitution does not exist anyway.
Brilliant @adam12.
What i was trying to articulate but the much more learned version! ;-)
Spot on also Seeds. Sums it up perfectly.
At least people are starting to talk about the power aspect now.
Cause thats what its about power and money like almost everything in life
So which GROUP in Australia already hold the most power?
Or receives the most money?
Which Australians of what ancestry group?
Indonesians?
Chinese?
Greeks?
Aboriginals?
Dutch?
Italians?
English?
American's?
Kiwis?
Indians?
Africans?
Sri Lankans?
Etc
What groups have the biggest representation in parliament based on percentage of population ?
What group is the biggest land owners or control the most land?
What group receives the most funding?
What group receives the most acknowledgment?
What group had the most days per year dedicated to them?
What group has the loudest voice?
What group has the largest number of bodies representing them?
Which group has the largest number of service's aimed at them?
Etc
Add more if you like.
Power and money, almost everything has to do with power and money, especially in politics.
I guess one man’s being open minded and not driven by ideology is another’s being just an odious scumbag
It's funny that people here are so critical of governments in general, always highlighting how everything is about power and money and of course tinged with corruption, yet when it comes to this issue are so blind to the obvious power and money aspect and ignore how riddled with corruption the Aboriginal industry is.
indo-dreaming wrote:It's funny that people here are so critical of governments in general, always highlighting how everything is about power and money and of course tinged with corruption, yet when it comes to this issue are so blind to the obvious power and money aspect and ignore how riddled with corruption the Aboriginal industry is.
Idiotic gaslighting post.
So all govt is riddled with corruption, as you say, and yet govt carries on with its work day in and day out, somehow getting the job done, but now there's an aspect you don't agree with it must be brought to task because it is, without any verification, corrupt.
stunet wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:It's funny that people here are so critical of governments in general, always highlighting how everything is about power and money and of course tinged with corruption, yet when it comes to this issue are so blind to the obvious power and money aspect and ignore how riddled with corruption the Aboriginal industry is.
Idiotic gaslighting post.
So all govt is riddled with corruption, as you say, and yet govt carries on with its work day in and day out, somehow getting the job done, but now there's an aspect you don't agree with it must be brought to task because it is, without any verification, corrupt.
Im just making an observation.
People here are always super critical of government's regarding money, power & corruption.
Yet on this issue totally ignore the obvious, and get swept up in feel good ideology.
Its bizarre
"So all govt is riddled with corruption, as you say" BTW. i didnt say that, read my post again.
One of the many issues the Aboriginal communities can look at, once they have long-term agency and a degree of nonretractable self-determination. I'm sure there's views on this in the FNP communities.
I’m not sure if corruption is the right word when looking into various ex government agencies. There’s a lot of over the top administration fees which takes a large percentage of the given funding. My mother when I was looking after her was allocated $53,000 per year in government funding , $14,500 alone went to administration fees. Then a carer that would come for 1 hour each morning to shower and dress her , she would receive $27 an hour but was charged out at $60 an hour which the private company would pocket on top of their admin fees . The government saves 7 billion a year by having family members care for the elderly at home . These companies were once government run but were privatised and now make staggering profits .
stunet wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:It's funny that people here are so critical of governments in general, always highlighting how everything is about power and money and of course tinged with corruption, yet when it comes to this issue are so blind to the obvious power and money aspect and ignore how riddled with corruption the Aboriginal industry is.
Idiotic gaslighting post.
So all govt is riddled with corruption, as you say, and yet govt carries on with its work day in and day out, somehow getting the job done, but now there's an aspect you don't agree with it must be brought to task because it is, without any verification, corrupt.
stu...corruption is not all about money it's favours and promotion and nepotism and cronyism and atsic was corrupt thats why howard cancelled it.
the garma festival just been held the fnp who started it about 20yrs ago(?) who died last year was the sole reciever of monies from mineing royalties and distributed funds as he wished to his mob, rellies and other sycophants and other mobs got zilch.
he had 4 wives who he paid for their houses a 2 story mansion on the waterfront with a helipad on his front lawn and a pilot on a retainer incase he needed to do his job.
he distributed the money in envelopes and depending on how "good" he thought of them determined the amount...nepotism and cronyism.
in 1997 and2007 there were 2 govt enquiries into this b.s. the second one in 2007 was about 50million $ in royalties he recieved and distributed betwween 97 and07.
the enquery found no fault he was exonerated, because of the wording of his responsibilitys he was ok to do it his way.
in oz we have legalised corruption and the above is an example, power through legislation that is then rorted.
was recently corrected by a wise man who laughed at my legalised corruption comment and said the correct description is institutionalised corruption.
all of my statement is backed by factual exposes i recently read.
@ sameaswas
Whats that guys name?...i read or watched a video on that too, guy died not long ago.
You get similar issues in Indonesia with kepala desa(village chiefs) its human nature when you have money and power involved people abuse it.
You can only imagine the voice will be made up with lots of these types of people, and then possibly be pushing issues or areas that they have been given kick backs too or that will benefit individual's, groups, organisations that are family or friends etc
Even the process of deciding who sits on the voice from all i can see won't be a proper democratic process overseen by an independent body like AEC.
Don't give em money, they waste it. Don't give em power, they'll abuse it. Don't give them a seat, they'll corrupt it. Don't give em a voice, they'll use it. Sad, archaic, colonial attitude.
We’ve just had a decade of the worst corrupt government in Australia’s history and suddenly @ info has discovered it as an issue to argue against the Voice.
Interesting that the No vote boosters seem so concerned, so outraged by their perception the Voice will bestow on them a loss of equality or someone having too much power compared to them.
How does that feel?
Maybe it's a taste of what FNP have felt for over 200 years in their own country.
Enjoy eating that shit sandwich you ignominious, self centered, deluded pricks.
GuySmiley wrote:We’ve just had a decade of the worst corrupt government in Australia’s history and suddenly @ info has discovered it as an issue to argue against the Voice.
Yep, never read a single post from Indo-freeloading on the scourge of well documented, extensive corrupt behavior emanating from his side of politics. Not a skerrick. Yet have read a mountain of unsubstantiated accusation of blak corruption and "too much power and money" in the hands of FNP.
Great observation Guy.
Racists gonna racist.
One of the world’s most disempowered minority groups might be given some power over their own lives. And some have an issue with that?
Just thought Indo's gaslighting needed some accelerant...
tbb is honestly finding it hard to stray from indo's train of thought.
Sure...can disagree with our white board rants as with this one...but not indo's ethics.
Let the Party leaders back indo on Voter Corruption.
All Party leaders accuse each other of preventing & accelerating Aboriginal Voting Enrollment.
AEC just sit back & wank over it...show us the money...Your [Vote] is precious Princess!
Albo : "[L] Locked out Lingiari Aboriginal Voters to secure Christmas Island Detention Centre Rorts!"
Scomo : "Fuck no! Them savages are not getting my Aspen / Hello World Quangos!"
AEC : "We'll sort Mr PM...but it won't be cheap!"
https://antonygreen.com.au/government-introduces-law-requiring-voters-to...
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/jun/09/did-the-morrison-...
Reffo is a perfect tool to accelerate record enrolment in the many Aboriginal swing states.
Albo: "80-90% Aboriginals will support ALP Reffo & Vote [YES] therefore lock in support for ME!"
No one actually believes in Albo's wet dream & say he's yanking his chain...Promise he says! We'll see!
Albo is forever & ever stalling the longest ever awaited Reffo to plump up his Aboriginal Voter Base.
Reffo Locks in [ALP] First Nation Swing seats..(0.3% - 3%).
Gilmore / Cowan / Dobell / Blair / Lilley / Eden-Monara / Macquarie + Cements Hunter 6% / Solomon 7%
Voice Enrollment alone has just locked in an extra 1-2 terms for Labor (No way [L-NO] can win these!)
Albo may lose Voice but wins all above seats + target First Nation [L] Leichhardt 7% + [L] Durack 9%
Left leaning [ALP] Greens combined only have 45% max Voice Reffo Vote...(Never gonna be enough!)
Right there one should question Albo's blind ambition as being suspect.
Naturally targeting or exploiting obvious sitting ducks will help with remaining 5%
(Albo is exploiting Record Reffo Kitty for Record funding for ongoing Record Left Enrollment base)
All you folk are stoking a record amount kitty for Faceless Men's wet Dream.
Greens put it best with same day Auto Enroll of Mass Murderers equally have the right to Vote.
AEC : "Fuck Yeah...let's do that shit!"
Greens : "Can't have First Nation Reffo without every indigenous Voter enrolled!" (Fuck Idle Rich Kidz!)
https://nit.com.au/22-03-2023/5356/greens-push-to-allow-prisoners-to-vot...
Medicare / Shopper Docket woteva...just enroll as many toads & floating turds as ya can net!
Direct enrolling First Nation / Kiwis / Migrants all minorities sympathetic to [ALP] Humanitarian cause!
https://www.aec.gov.au/media/2023/02-17.htm
https://www.aec.gov.au/Enrolling_to_vote/About_Electoral_Roll/direct.htm
https://www.aec.gov.au/Enrolling_to_vote/About_Electoral_Roll/files/23-1...
https://www.aec.gov.au/media/2023/05-22.htm
Both [ALP] + [Green] are bankrolling AEC Direct Enrollment for their Endangered Species UN cause!"
Voice is generating record enrollments for endangered [ALP] species.
Just as...
Greens bankroll record Renter uprising to stamp out us endangered Great Aussie Dreamtime dwellers.
[factcheck] Rent freeze with record inflation > Rent rise with lowering inflation (It's fuckin' Back2Front!)
All worldly market rent freezes flex to afford % market / inflation landlord upkeep...(All but this one!)
Even more cuckoo that not one expert has picked up on such...shows how easy it is to fool sheeple!
Greens are unashamedly targeting rising what about me demographic left over from Oz Democrats!
Just say any shit about human rights of the Individual...they owe us a living!
Here's another...just yesterday served up as Qldurrz Hot Apple Pie...with fighters flying overhead now!
ALP : "If you're Pro Human Rights then you need to be pro AUKUS."
Reminding that AUKUS is merely a partnership...it ain't no proper fair dinkum Nuke Free ANZUS Treaty!
Same twisted ALP hero spin ...please direct goodwill towards Albo's other worldly humanitarian cause.
See wotz goin' on...Free handouts for Political Flashmobs...get yer snout in while yer on a roll.
Shape the Narrative toward yer Voter Base Agenda > Then stand back as Oz bankrolls yer Wet dream!
Please someone stop & count the Money being pissed against the wall on these Wet dreams!
Even if the crew support them...then at least argue on the horrendous post covid executive waste!
As said the Republic Reffo is already locked in at $500m.
Albo's (Urgent) Most drawn out delayed Reffo is harnessing a record sympathetic [ALP] Voter Base!
ALP faceless men (Thanx Reffo) locked in 3 terms thru- good faith - 100% First Nation swing seats!
Taxpayer's AEC are bankrolling record [ALP + Green] Enrollment base...too bad, so sad it's done!
tbb : Truly sorry if Oz Voters don't see this as mass electoral Fraud...coz it 100% is & should be outed.
Albo's AEC can now enroll your fetus for your pre poll reveal...
AEC Voice has enrolled 110% voter base...necessary as 10-20% refuse to Vote in Record Reffo!
But don't matter does it...Coz ALP / Greens already bought yer soul...you're obliged to feel indebted?
@overthefalls, it's the boring tropes of 'the mean and tricky' as Guy put it:
"blah blah; they DO have a voice; the constitution is sacred; why should they get something; we-don't-do-race-anymore; we need to know how it'll be set up; it'll be corrupt; 'they' don't even want it; blah blah.."
how is this shit getting traction? - I'm exhausted by it, and it doesn't even affect me.
Imagine being part of a maligned (understatement) 3%, that have listened to closing the gap shit forever, that identify with the very dust of a magnificent country, and now are at the mercy of 97% to just say 'yep' in the easiest way possible, and are subjected to all this crappy, sub-human noise surrounding it. Imagine voting on this, based on yer views on white-man politics. Boggles the mind.
@ Indo
"It's funny that people here are so critical of governments in general, always highlighting how everything is about power and money and of course tinged with corruption, yet when it comes to this issue are so blind to the obvious power and money aspect and ignore how riddled with corruption the Aboriginal industry is."
The Voice is proposed to be transparent its advice publicly available so I don't understand your point, this is unlike Australian Governments you know like the Prime minister that secretly made himself minister for everything.
I find it disingenuous arguments against coming from the no Vote have no alternatives in fact actually agree there should be a voice and recognition.
Open mindedness. Pertinant to this thread. Guy is right, nothing is going to change what comes out of i-d’s mouth. Most ‘thought’ is unconscious. I studied behavioral science, and am qualified formally, not skimly-googly qualified. Because how we think has a dramatic effect on health and fitness, on change. So I studied that field, formally, for years. Seperate to my fitness and Indigenous studies which were both my professions, because it dramatically affects both avenues. And with all the latest technology, huge advances are taking place in that, and all the related fields, the study never ends. But one principle, one law if you like, across the board, holds up, is being reinforced. Your deepest, often hidden beliefs will colour your conscious thoughts and so behaviour. Choose them wisely, because you can, and everyone can afford it. Thoughts can always be changed, its the one thing we do actually always have control of, if we remain alert. Awake.
So here’s a deluxe video that Swellnet put up. Billy Bain. Keep another person in mind, Bruce Pascoe.
Keep an open mind. Forgetting the culturally, and individually reinforced, hidden, unconscious concepts of good and bad. Here below is i-d’s unconcious response to the above. And to Bruce Pascoe. That rule and colour his reactions and expression. Unless he makes a determined effort to examine and change that hidden conditioning, it must, it always will be expressed. Relentlessly. Or unless an event so powerful occurs, or so emotional (just more directed energy, which is crucial), that it completely shatters those hidden beliefs, replaces them. For example, the 4 minute mile saga. There are plenty of instances of that happening. Or like sometimes when people find out they have only x time to live. Or sometimes in dire emergencies. So they suddenly jettison all conditioning and do things that they would never have done otherwise. That scenario though, the sudden event, is also pushing the odds of that happening, due to the unconscious conditioning also dictating the type of situations that we consciously enter into.
‘especially if i came up against challenges or disadvantages that true indigenous people face like being judged on their appearance and stereotypes‘
'I dont agree Floyd I'm sure there is many many many true indigenous people that feel as i do and think it's a joke that some white fella thinks he is indigenous because their great great grandmother was indigenous, id sure feel that way if i was a true indigenous person’
'I can't believe nobody came up with the old line.
"It doesn't matter how much milk you put in coffee it's still coffee"
Which well is not true at some point it just becomes coffee flavour milk.'
https://www.swellnet.com/forums/politico/352734?page=1
Now, maybe remember concepts of good and bad. According to i-d, too bad Billy Bain and Bruce Pascoe, and your lot. To i-d, you are just a ‘joke’. And always will be. Is that why Swellnet put Billy Bain up?
And unless this is your idea of good? Or open mindedness. Not stereotyping, no racism, no misogyny, no blind spots. ‘Too bad you two, I want an experience, this is your lucky day, you and your lot are it.’
Because… power, privilege. In this case, in Australia, yes, ‘white’ power and privilege. Not afforded equally to Adam Goodes for instance.
'BTW. i saw a women at the market in Dandenong the other day with a burqua or maybe it was a Niqab it was kind of in-between couldn't see her face though, i was waiting for my missus so did a bit of people watching with her, to be honest she didn't look oppressed like the full black robe ones I've seen in Indonesia that look like servants of the men, actually looked the opposite in this case she had her little middle eastern guy following her around and from the body language she looked like she was wearing the pants so to speak.
It was quite crowded and was thinking maybe i will accidentally go bump into her and say sorry etc and see if she will interact with me and see the reaction of her husband, but by that time my missus had finished.'
https://www.swellnet.com/forums/politico/307178?page=63
All the videos, the weight of considered, expert opinion, and overwhelming evidence, the forensics, the lines cameras, show that Indigenous Australian Cultures are one of a kind, even in their diversity. One of a kind in many areas so pertinant to contempory Australia. You want proven, genuine equality, proven acceptance of diverse others, proven time up your sleeve, proven family time, family, all that means to Indigenous Australians, proven reciprocity, proven relative peace, an end to outright war, proven environmental protection and enhancement, proven economical policy, proven inclusiveness, proven sense of purpose and belonging, when dealing with everything that it means to be human. Proven light at the end of the tunnel for you and your kids. And a 60,000 year plus (for now), track record.
As Gammage said:
‘What they achieved was remarkable no other world civilization had achieved it’
And this. Including the interview replay at the bottom of the page.
https://www.caama.com.au/2021/08/23/is-this-the-most-significant-legacy-...
Then, look no further. Look right alongside you. Right here, against all the odds. Despicable odds too. Still trying their guts out to be all of the above.
Change the things that everyone here moans and complains about anyway. Our ‘constitution’. Indigenous Australians are human, they have long dealt with dissention amongst themselves in demonstrating all of the above success story. Give them a say, a voice. Implement, include the proven, the best that they have to offer into our lives, combine it with the best that we have to offer. We have to undo our conditioning of being seperate. We aren’t. Its wilful ignorance in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary to believe that we are. It, seperateness thinking, our cultural approach, doesn’t work. It produces everything on here that everyone complains about.
Indigenous Australians are already inclusive of us, they already show a willingness to embrace the best that we have to offer. And to move on, to include. And to forgive. Reciprocate them. Open minds. Create a deluxe, one of a kind new constitution. Give Indigenous Australians a voice. They want inclusiveness, success, happiness for all, and all around us. For your kids.
And remember, they are human, they make mistakes, like us. Afford them the same right. Especially considering the hell they have been through, and are overcoming. Their track record shows they are experts at dealing with humaness.
Don’t be the person bogged in the sand to the axles, and when the gun rolls up and offers help, and says, ‘hey I’m just gonna let a bit of air out of your tires for starters’, the person freaks, is too arrogant, proud and closed minded, and tells them to fuck off.
‘Don’t worry I don’t want your air, I’ll even pump ‘em back up for ya with my little solar pump. Stay here if you really want, it’s just that you’re blocking the track for everyone else mate.’
The videos showing the truth about Indigenous Australians astounding success stories are worthwhile, crucial viewing. If you really care about not living a life of conditioned lies and stereotypes, if you actually want an open mind, and the same for your grandkids, and theirs.
I hope its not just me you Yes voters are aiming your rage at?
Please tell me you are getting out in the wider community abusing and name calling, neighbors, work colleagues, friends, family the undecided or No voters.
Please get out there and tell them loudly and boldly they are bigots and racist, abuse them as best you can, and make sure others see and know you are doing this.
You need to convince them they are wrong, you need to shame them, now get off your PC & phones and get out there and get to work.
Rumour is Oct 14 or there about's is the date, so get busy
Who said ‘shame’? You said what you believe i-d. You said it. About those people. God knows how many people you deride as ‘a joke’. You double down on it continually.
Maybe you are feeling that it is shamefull, that outlook. Seeing as you raise it now.
Stereotyping is crucial to the topic, and you display it here, so its pertinant to address your perfect, text book examples.
okey dokes, Indo : )
- no rage and abuse though, just tiredness and conversation, I reckon.
My kids and I have discussed how cool it will be when Aus is an egalitarian society Indo, my son thinks about 80 years, where race and skin-colour is no longer a main-stream issue, and that cultural-identity or religion becomes more distinctly a choice. A time when my kids' kids get to vote in a referendum, instigated by Indigenous Voice to parliament, who argue that their role has become redundant. And we all agree an Environmental Voice to parliament is now more appropriate. And we all thank the people of 2023 who started that ball rolling, by putting a Voice into the constitution that was a proxy Environmental Voice - FNP who were obliged to put environment high of the political agenda - and that also helped Australia to become a unified country through FNP respect. An Australia, that will by then have a shared FNP heritage that we will all embrace, respect and be proud of.
So sad that such ideas are seen as ideological, feel-good, pollyannaish, naïve, warm-and-fuzzy, virtue-signaling. Happy to cop that, raising kids in this world, they rarely get that stuff. I'd like them to grow up in an environment where the above adjectives aren't insults.
Uplift, Bud1, that "unconscious conditioning" post was one hell of a comment/commentary.
Forgive me for at times thinking you were kinda nuts in the old Herc/Uplift days.
Mucho respecto bro.
I think I might go and do some squats now. Inspired.
You mention community @info. Please be reassured from what I hear from the many people I know that live and surf on the island, you are well known for your SN comments so I can equally assure you people aren’t laughing with you but rather at you.
Had the pleasure to Neil Murray a few years back.
Lovely bloke... I'll be voting Yes.
https://m.
&pp=ygUbd2FydW1waSBiYW5kIG15IGlzbGFuZCBob21l Great posts uplift
Bud1 wrote:Open mindedness. Pertinant to this thread. Guy is right, nothing is going to change what comes out of i-d’s mouth. Most ‘thought’ is unconscious. I studied behavioral science, and am qualified formally, not skimly-googly qualified. Because how we think has a dramatic effect on health and fitness, on change. So I studied that field, formally, for years. Seperate to my fitness and Indigenous studies which were both my professions, because it dramatically affects both avenues. And with all the latest technology, huge advances are taking place in that, and all the related fields, the study never ends. But one principle, one law if you like, across the board, holds up, is being reinforced. Your deepest, often hidden beliefs will colour your conscious thoughts and so behaviour. Choose them wisely, because you can, and everyone can afford it. Thoughts can always be changed, its the one thing we do actually always have control of, if we remain alert. Awake.
So here’s a deluxe video that Swellnet put up. Billy Bain. Keep another person in mind, Bruce Pascoe.
Keep an open mind. Forgetting the culturally, and individually reinforced, hidden, unconscious concepts of good and bad. Here below is i-d’s unconcious response to the above. And to Bruce Pascoe. That rule and colour his reactions and expression. Unless he makes a determined effort to examine and change that hidden conditioning, it must, it always will be expressed. Relentlessly. Or unless an event so powerful occurs, or so emotional (just more directed energy, which is crucial), that it completely shatters those hidden beliefs, replaces them. For example, the 4 minute mile saga. There are plenty of instances of that happening. Or like sometimes when people find out they have only x time to live. Or sometimes in dire emergencies. So they suddenly jettison all conditioning and do things that they would never have done otherwise. That scenario though, the sudden event, is also pushing the odds of that happening, due to the unconscious conditioning also dictating the type of situations that we consciously enter into.
‘especially if i came up against challenges or disadvantages that true indigenous people face like being judged on their appearance and stereotypes‘
'I dont agree Floyd I'm sure there is many many many true indigenous people that feel as i do and think it's a joke that some white fella thinks he is indigenous because their great great grandmother was indigenous, id sure feel that way if i was a true indigenous person’
'I can't believe nobody came up with the old line.
"It doesn't matter how much milk you put in coffee it's still coffee"
Which well is not true at some point it just becomes coffee flavour milk.'
https://www.swellnet.com/forums/politico/352734?page=1
Now, maybe remember concepts of good and bad. According to i-d, too bad Billy Bain and Bruce Pascoe, and your lot. To i-d, you are just a ‘joke’. And always will be. Is that why Swellnet put Billy Bain up?
And unless this is your idea of good? Or open mindedness. Not stereotyping, no racism, no misogyny, no blind spots. ‘Too bad you two, I want an experience, this is your lucky day, you and your lot are it.’
Because… power, privilege. In this case, in Australia, yes, ‘white’ power and privilege. Not afforded equally to Adam Goodes for instance.
'BTW. i saw a women at the market in Dandenong the other day with a burqua or maybe it was a Niqab it was kind of in-between couldn't see her face though, i was waiting for my missus so did a bit of people watching with her, to be honest she didn't look oppressed like the full black robe ones I've seen in Indonesia that look like servants of the men, actually looked the opposite in this case she had her little middle eastern guy following her around and from the body language she looked like she was wearing the pants so to speak.
It was quite crowded and was thinking maybe i will accidentally go bump into her and say sorry etc and see if she will interact with me and see the reaction of her husband, but by that time my missus had finished.'
https://www.swellnet.com/forums/politico/307178?page=63
All the videos, the weight of considered, expert opinion, and overwhelming evidence, the forensics, the lines cameras, show that Indigenous Australian Cultures are one of a kind, even in their diversity. One of a kind in many areas so pertinant to contempory Australia. You want proven, genuine equality, proven acceptance of diverse others, proven time up your sleeve, proven family time, family, all that means to Indigenous Australians, proven reciprocity, proven relative peace, an end to outright war, proven environmental protection and enhancement, proven economical policy, proven inclusiveness, proven sense of purpose and belonging, when dealing with everything that it means to be human. Proven light at the end of the tunnel for you and your kids. And a 60,000 year plus (for now), track record.
As Gammage said:
‘What they achieved was remarkable no other world civilization had achieved it’
And this. Including the interview replay at the bottom of the page.
https://www.caama.com.au/2021/08/23/is-this-the-most-significant-legacy-...
Then, look no further. Look right alongside you. Right here, against all the odds. Despicable odds too. Still trying their guts out to be all of the above.
Change the things that everyone here moans and complains about anyway. Our ‘constitution’. Indigenous Australians are human, they have long dealt with dissention amongst themselves in demonstrating all of the above success story. Give them a say, a voice. Implement, include the proven, the best that they have to offer into our lives, combine it with the best that we have to offer. We have to undo our conditioning of being seperate. We aren’t. Its wilful ignorance in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary to believe that we are. It, seperateness thinking, our cultural approach, doesn’t work. It produces everything on here that everyone complains about.
Indigenous Australians are already inclusive of us, they already show a willingness to embrace the best that we have to offer. And to move on, to include. And to forgive. Reciprocate them. Open minds. Create a deluxe, one of a kind new constitution. Give Indigenous Australians a voice. They want inclusiveness, success, happiness for all, and all around us. For your kids.
And remember, they are human, they make mistakes, like us. Afford them the same right. Especially considering the hell they have been through, and are overcoming. Their track record shows they are experts at dealing with humaness.
Don’t be the person bogged in the sand to the axles, and when the gun rolls up and offers help, and says, ‘hey I’m just gonna let a bit of air out of your tires for starters’, the person freaks, is too arrogant, proud and closed minded, and tells them to fuck off.
‘Don’t worry I don’t want your air, I’ll even pump ‘em back up for ya with my little solar pump. Stay here if you really want, it’s just that you’re blocking the track for everyone else mate.’
The videos showing the truth about Indigenous Australians astounding success stories are worthwhile, crucial viewing. If you really care about not living a life of conditioned lies and stereotypes, if you actually want an open mind, and the same for your grandkids, and theirs.
That was a good read. Thanks!
WA Heritage Law backdown highlights the Cross Govt intervention due directly to The Voice.
Farmers said No > Coalition [YES] supporters got the jitters > Voice cracked > ALP leaned on Cooky!
Rest is history...Voice was the bargaining chip > WA Heritage Laws are no more...
tbb is back loading the Explosive WA Heritage Pre Ramble ... The Wheelin' 'n' Dealin'
Juukan Gorge Inquiry gives overrule power to Feds...
Oct 2022 Aboriginal Heritage Action Alliance called on withdrawal of WA Heritage Bill...
https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/juukan-gorge-inquiry-urges-nat...
Lost in translation...ALP Feds (Urgent response) = Translates to maybe let next Govt deal with it.
Albo regards it as too hot of a potato during the Voice...
So WA Govt still had to draft a temporary Heritage Act....to latest simple amendments!
[ Albo+ALP+L+NP ] Screamed loudest (vs) Ind + First Nation are pissed off by the Voice sellout!
https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/under-siege-yes-campaign-frets-abou...
https://thewest.com.au/politics/federal-politics/indigenous-voice-to-par...
The Backflip + The Apology!
Now the very same [L]+[np] [Yes] Campaigners no longer sing the same tune...That's Politics!
[ALP] Now have less WA Voice support than before their Backflip...
Albo sold out WA for a pop tart & can no longer stand the sound of his own Voice
Never Again > Way Forward!
Sure...tbb can update First Nation Heritage Laws but only just...
Nov '22 Govt were initially pressed to adopt all but one 7/8 recommendations in Juukan Gorge Report
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/new-heritage-laws-to-stop-anothe...
Basically allows Feds to Override State junket laws.
First Nation were upset that they were not consulted & wanted in...thru 2023 >
Albo had Tanya sit on this thru 2023 Voice as with WA backdown (Say / Do nothing!)
Albo's then does the WA backflip...so many thought to check if Albo's Fed Law had this covered.
Coalition brought this up in parliament as most here also thought of Albo's timely Fed intervention.
Reason being that [L] Know the Policy affords Fed Overrule...which Tanya herself...backed, not passed!
Can read that recommendation here... Oz news reports edit > (Feds Retain Overrule).
This seems to be at the heart of it...as Feds promise to equally share Heritage right with First Nation.
Can imagine what mining magnates think about that...so we got this impasse where govt sit on report!
https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/australia-raise-protection-ab...
But because it's ongoing...Feds now deny they have any such overrule! (Not True...as they're supposed to!)
Naturally [L] try to drag this out of Tanya."Don't be silly, she says, we're on your side, the miner's side!"
https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/politics/government-will-not-t...
Hopes are for early 2024 Fed Heritage legislation but....doubts if we'll see it by next election...
Every single State / Fed Govt are too gutless to take on Mining Magnates...delay...delay!
Paper : "No new Fed Cultural Heritage Legislation for 2022/23 - But change is coming!"
This is as good as any freelance update as yer likely to get...
https://www.ashurst.com/en/insights/no-new-federal-cultural-heritage-leg...
Hell yeah, awesome post Bud1.
And also your tahiti pro post yesterday.
Some of your recent finest mate.
Thanks
adam12 wrote:GuySmiley wrote:We’ve just had a decade of the worst corrupt government in Australia’s history and suddenly @ info has discovered it as an issue to argue against the Voice.
Yep, never read a single post from Indo-freeloading on the scourge of well documented, extensive corrupt behavior emanating from his side of politics. Not a skerrick. Yet have read a mountain of unsubstantiated accusation of blak corruption and "too much power and money" in the hands of FNP.
Great observation Guy.
Racists gonna racist.
Indo Free loading is a good one. I used Free-Money Dreaming for a short time.
Ha!
Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x
The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.
Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.
Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.
The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.
Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??
Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28
References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28