The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

bluediamond started the topic in

Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

sameaswas Monday, 21 Aug 2023 at 2:37pm

Supafreak wrote:
@sameaswas , is Keith Windschuttle your source of information regarding yunupingu ? He has a long list of articles on quadrant when it comes to FNP and has written some books . He also along with bolt was in George Pells camp . Do you believe his articles and books are factual and accurate ?

only saw him once on a.b. sky which is same as indo posted, i put him onto it, the bit about yunipingu.
saw a bit more of the garma festival again and noticed his brother was m.c. and has inherited his dead brothers job.
been trying to find vid of jacinta price telling story of granny's bashing...can't find the one i saw but there is the same vid but edited out are what i said happened.
gunna keep looking but either it was a false account and embellished by a stirrer and deleted because of it??
either way i can't back up what i posted.
sounds real bad on my part, i watched it no bull.
the dv bit was correct and lets face it, 45yrs of the elites in canberra and it,s worse than ever in the isolated communities...why?

old-dog Monday, 21 Aug 2023 at 4:59pm

So, $365 million to spend on the voice. Ad campaigns, lawyers, limos, lavish dinners, glossy brochures, etc. etc. etc. and all for a non-binding voice to tell the Govt. the bleeding obvious things that they should already know. If Albo had a spine and a morsel of vision he could fly commercial instead of jetting around the globe in his personal half empty RAF jet and hand the millions saved straight to a worthy project. If only he could think outside the box and find a way to cut out all the bureaucracy, middlemen and nepotism and get some of the billions we spend on trying to bridge the gap straight to those who need it instead of into the pockets of elite white dudes in suits. So much waste when so many are in desperate need. Meanwhile, talk of raising the GST, now that is really going to help the bottom feeders. I will probably vote YES but can't help thinking there must be a better way. It seems like it's all about Albo's legacy.

sypkan Monday, 21 Aug 2023 at 5:22pm

totally old dog

if albo's proposal had an inkling of what you suggest, it would be an absolute no brainer...

probably with a number of yes-ers very close to 67 referendum... 90 odd percent!

but nah... no balls... no vision... no fukn idea...

I know citing jp will make me no friends... but she is 100% spot on in saying the 'yes' thingy is all about empowering the decades long blakfella 'elite' machine that got us into the current mess that is remote communities etc...

the cats that drove the bus to here, want another go...

no wonder much blackfella opposition seems to come from the remote regions

sameaswas Tuesday, 22 Aug 2023 at 2:15pm

i saw a polly on news, the son of n.t, lnp bob katter who wants boot camps for young offenders, like a training facility for education skills and counselling for the toxic environments they have been brought up in.
6+mnths ago there was the alice springs expose on youth crime domestic violence etc etc, albo flew there for selfies and linda burnie. when he left (4hrs) an elder being interviewed said exactly what katter said + name and shame the adults who have corrupted these young picaninnies and gaol the parents and remove the kids to educate them.
the voice elite never responded and that elders interview was censored...disappeared,
linda burnie was shown at a.s. hospital intensive care unit where all 9 icu beds were taken by fnp women from domestic violence, 3 of them were on life support and all required extensive recovery and all were going to have lifetime disabilitys, linda was deeply traumatised and shakeing, close to tears.
about 3 mnths later another elder from kunnunurra said exactly the same, gaol and removal of kids and i think roeborne(?) elder said same a while later, 3x elders and the voice is tone deaf and mute.
and ppl want to vote yes...why? they don't listen.

sameaswas Tuesday, 22 Aug 2023 at 2:34pm

old-dog wrote:
So, $365 million to spend on the voice. Ad campaigns, lawyers, limos, lavish dinners, glossy brochures, etc. etc. etc. and all for a non-binding voice to tell the Govt. the bleeding obvious things that they should already know. If Albo had a spine and a morsel of vision he could fly commer
cial instead of jetting around the globe in his personal half empty RAF jet and hand the millions saved straight to a worthy project. If only he could think outside the box and find a way to cut out all the bureaucracy, middlemen and nepotism and get some of the billions we spend on trying to bridge the gap straight to those who need it instead of into the pockets of elite white dudes in suits. So much waste when so many are in desperate need. Meanwhile, talk of raising the GST, now that is really going to help the bottom feeders. I will probably vote YES but can't help thinking there must be a better way. It seems like it's all about Albo's legacy.

i heard $370 million but hey whats 5mil diff compared to $30billion+/yr ...allegidely, but again no explanation from voice.
another thing i watched was bits of garma festival, i think day 3 there were speaches by fnp's and a fnp woman got up and gave a short explanation of what welcome to country ceremony was meant to be, the smokeing thingy.
she said only for baby born, death and certain ceremony's not footy and everything under the sun (my words) and chastised them for trivialiseing it and everyone gave her a big cheer and applause, kind of a weird response? either they were'nt listening or could'nt understand english?
again no comment from the voice.

southernraw Tuesday, 22 Aug 2023 at 2:58pm

@sameaswas, just in regards to your second last post;
Have you seen the documentary, 'In my Blood it Runs'?
Great doco that follows the life of a young indigenous boy.
When you're looking at positively changing the generational trauma, i think this is a better place to start in the healing process.
Looking through the eyes of a young fella who's living it.
Check it out if you get the chance. It's on various streaming services.

etarip Tuesday, 22 Aug 2023 at 5:31pm

Retired Aussie couple voting 'No' on the voice: 'We can't stand that show!' https://t.co/m6yibFCnSi
— The Chaser (@chaser) August 22, 2023

southernraw Tuesday, 22 Aug 2023 at 9:08pm

Haha!
Very good @etarip.

truebluebasher Wednesday, 23 Aug 2023 at 10:10am

Voice Voters gotta Check yer News...no spoiler!

sameaswas Wednesday, 23 Aug 2023 at 10:44am

southernraw wrote:
@sameaswas, just in regards to your second last post;
Have you seen the documentary, 'In my Blood it Runs'?
Great doco that follows the life of a young indigenous boy.
When you're looking at positively changing the generational trauma, i think this is a better place to start in the healing process.
Looking through the eyes of a young fella who's living it.
Check it out if you get the chance. It's on various streaming services.

will look it up later tday.
my beef is with the ruleing elite for allowing this to happen and their egos and nepotism etc.
this is a power grab for profit.
allso we have laws against foreign inter ference in our politic and democracy yet the australian buisness council is pro voice and their members are donateing funds for yes 23.
you know who, rio tinto, kpmg, ety, pwc and every other foreign multinational mineing, hyrocarbon and financial crooks out there, all have offshore tax havens and are tax evaders and get away with it.
shows what a mercenary lot the yes elite are?
and why the bloody hell no media or constitutional lawyer has'nt gone boonta! about this!
hang on, think it's called buisness council of oz.
allso laws against pork barreling eg, $370mil for voice...zilch for no.

sameaswas Wednesday, 23 Aug 2023 at 10:55am

etarip wrote:
https://twitter.com/chaser/status/1693868696027193668

haha wonder if interviewer took them out of context. a mate of mine was asked about the voice,
meaning yes or no and he said .
"well i was gunna vote guy sebastian but when i saw him bully his invalid neighbours on cctv, stuff him i'm voteing johnny farnham instead" and the yes prole did'nt get the joke...hahaha

Supafreak Wednesday, 23 Aug 2023 at 7:12pm

https://www.betootaadvocate.com/entertainment/liberals-terrified-an-indi...

truebluebasher Thursday, 24 Aug 2023 at 10:49am

Suss AEC Reffo Vote Paper
Before ya say anything...
Reminding tbb is neutral...that's why yer reading this!
AEC How to Vote in Reffo.

[Yes] = Proper Vote
[Y] = (May or not be counted)
[Tick] = (Half Proper Vote)...[_/] = Yes (vs) [ ./ ] = Maybe or n/a
Vote [Yes] Try not to [Tick] > Don't lazily mark [ Y ] or [ / ]
Do not mark [ Y ] [ / ] Your Vote may / will not Count...Ok!
...........................................................................................................................

[No] = Proper Vote
[N] = (Not really...You can Fuck Off)?
[X] = (Not accepted as a No Vote) Can be read as affirmative, Donkey or n/a
Only Vote [No] = means [No] = counts as [No]
Do not mark [N] or [X]
[X] May possibly count...but only if [NO] camp lodge objections between now & REFFO.

Of course tbb knows it sounds different or may advantage one or the other!
Noting AEC works for their masters...who ever feeds them...
In this case...The REFFO is bankrolling them to a record Enrollment Cash Splash.
This is not the only anomaly...tbb raised several Voice AEC disparities...eg: Direct Enrollment
Voters of all people should be awake to AEC Master's games.
Again...Whole reason tbb is sharing.
News just added a Poll
tbb just upgraded yer link : Is a [AEC] Reffo Paper Fair [94%] NO.
Who said things couldn't get worse for [YES] camp...
[AEC] : "For another half a $billion we can print a less than 50% suss batch of How 2 Votes!"
Any [YES] Victory will now likely be fought in Courts over the next 100 years.

Voting Paper is in today's News & [no] Director PM Abbott is onto it...read here...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12438845/Voice-referendum-trick...

basesix Thursday, 24 Aug 2023 at 11:12am

as the article says, this is just that thing where X can be confusingly ambiguous, due to the machines that have read forms in the past.
Anyone who has filled in tax or gov't forms would have given this a passing thought, when you are meant, for example, to say you ARE from an English-speaking background, by marking the AFFIRMATIVE with an X.
Ticks mean yes, crosses can mean either, your tick may look like the ambiguous cross, so write the thing the form asks you to write. Yes or No. Good on them for making this clear so far in advance.

sameaswas Thursday, 24 Aug 2023 at 1:33pm

truebluebasher wrote:
Suss AEC Reffo Vote Paper
Before ya say anything...
Reminding tbb is neutral...that's why yer reading this!
AEC How to Vote in Reffo.

[Yes] = Proper Vote
[Y] = (May or not be counted)
[Tick] = (Half Proper Vote)...[_/] = Yes (vs) [ ./ ] = Maybe or n/a
Vote [Yes] Try not to [Tick] > Don't lazily mark [ Y ] or [ / ]
Do not mark [ Y ] [ / ] Your Vote may / will not Count...Ok!
...........................................................................................................................

[No] = Proper Vote
[N] = (Not really...You can Fuck Off)?
[X] = (Not accepted as a No Vote) Can be read as affirmative, Donkey or n/a
Only Vote [No] = means [No] = counts as [No]
Do not mark [N] or [X]
[X] May possibly count...but only if [NO] camp lodge objections between now & REFFO.

Of course tbb knows it sounds different or may advantage one or the other!
Noting AEC works for their masters...who ever feeds them...
In this case...The REFFO is bankrolling them to a record Enrollment Cash Splash.
This is not the only anomaly...tbb raised several Voice AEC disparities...eg: Direct Enrollment
Voters of all people should be awake to AEC Master's games.
Again...Whole reason tbb is sharing.
News just added a Poll
tbb just upgraded yer link : Is a [AEC] Reffo Paper Fair [94%] NO.
Who said things couldn't get worse for [YES] camp...
[AEC] : "For another half a $billion we can print a less than 50% suss batch of How 2 Votes!"
Any [YES] Victory will now likely be fought in Courts over the next 100 years.

Voting Paper is in today's News & [no] Director PM Abbott is onto it...read here...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12438845/Voice-referendum-trick...

good one tbb, comes across as orwellian "doublethink" ...is basically the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.

yestrday on news a preschool teaching 4-5yr olds about white man came and shot aborigines etc etc and made them do crayon drawings of it!! took em home to show mum and dad.
not happy parents, some kids upset, big guilt trip laid on babes in preschool.
aborigine parent was appalled about it too.
yes camp proles corrupting innocents, makes you wonder what goes on in isolated communities preschools, we won't know cos they are gated secret enclaves.

sameaswas Thursday, 24 Aug 2023 at 1:34pm

basesix wrote:
as the article says, this is just that thing where X can be confusingly ambiguous, due to the machines that have read forms in the past.
Anyone who has filled in tax or gov't forms would have given this a passing thought, when you are meant, for example, to say you ARE from an English-speaking background, by marking the AFFIRMATIVE with an X.
Ticks mean yes, crosses can mean either, your tick may look like the ambiguous cross, so write the thing the form asks you to write. Yes or No. Good on them for making this clear so far in advance.

as clear as mud.

indo-dreaming Thursday, 24 Aug 2023 at 3:29pm

truebluebasher wrote:
Suss AEC Reffo Vote Paper
Before ya say anything...
Reminding tbb is neutral...that's why yer reading this!
AEC How to Vote in Reffo.

[Yes] = Proper Vote
[Y] = (May or not be counted)
[Tick] = (Half Proper Vote)...[_/] = Yes (vs) [ ./ ] = Maybe or n/a
Vote [Yes] Try not to [Tick] > Don't lazily mark [ Y ] or [ / ]
Do not mark [ Y ] [ / ] Your Vote may / will not Count...Ok!
...........................................................................................................................

[No] = Proper Vote
[N] = (Not really...You can Fuck Off)?
[X] = (Not accepted as a No Vote) Can be read as affirmative, Donkey or n/a
Only Vote [No] = means [No] = counts as [No]
Do not mark [N] or [X]
[X] May possibly count...but only if [NO] camp lodge objections between now & REFFO.

Of course tbb knows it sounds different or may advantage one or the other!
Noting AEC works for their masters...who ever feeds them...
In this case...The REFFO is bankrolling them to a record Enrollment Cash Splash.
This is not the only anomaly...tbb raised several Voice AEC disparities...eg: Direct Enrollment
Voters of all people should be awake to AEC Master's games.
Again...Whole reason tbb is sharing.
News just added a Poll
tbb just upgraded yer link : Is a [AEC] Reffo Paper Fair [94%] NO.
Who said things couldn't get worse for [YES] camp...
[AEC] : "For another half a $billion we can print a less than 50% suss batch of How 2 Votes!"
Any [YES] Victory will now likely be fought in Courts over the next 100 years.

Voting Paper is in today's News & [no] Director PM Abbott is onto it...read here...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12438845/Voice-referendum-trick...

What a complete scam, clearly just trying to help stack the odd's in the Yes camps favour.

Why not make is simple, two boxes Yes or No, mark the one you want.

The actual question itself is already misleading and plays up to the Yes vote by mixing in constitutional recognition with the voice. (two completely different issues)

“A Proposed Law: to alter the Constitution to recognise the First Peoples of Australia by establishing an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice. Do you approve this proposed alteration?”

Even a Yes or No answer helps stack odds in the Yes camps favour as just choosing Yes has a psychological advantage, Yes is always seen as a positive No is not (any parent knows this)

If we were doing this properly you would have two clear options to tick the box you agreed with.

A. Would you like the constitution changed to give Aboriginal people a voice to parliament ?

B. Would you like the constitution to remain unchanged?

basesix Thursday, 24 Aug 2023 at 3:38pm

I think even if they went with that system Indo, they would still have to say 'an X won't be counted in either box, but a tick may be if clear enough', for the reasons I stated above. Wouldn't they?

indo-dreaming Thursday, 24 Aug 2023 at 5:27pm

I would have thought if computers are used that any mark in the box is a vote, be it a tick and x or just a line across the box

basesix Thursday, 24 Aug 2023 at 5:38pm

I agree, they should go that way. I guess the thinking is that some might mark 'X' to indicate they don't agree with a statement (which would register as a 'yes'). I don't really have an opinion, as long as they are clear about what the system is.

indo-dreaming Thursday, 24 Aug 2023 at 6:12pm

I think it would be best if they only accepted either Yes and No and not accepted ticks or crosses at all.

And make it clear at the voting centre and booths and on the paper.

GuySmiley Thursday, 24 Aug 2023 at 8:25pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
I think it would be best if they only accepted either Yes and No and not accepted ticks or crosses at all.

And make it clear at the voting centre and booths and on the paper.

Polling Place staff in 99.99% of cases are quickly able to ascertain the voter’s intention and if in doubt confer with each other and/or the numerous scrutinisers from each political party. So no need to worry your conspiracy filled head @info

adam12 Thursday, 24 Aug 2023 at 9:21pm

Indo-demeaning says "If we were doing this properly you would have two clear options to tick the box you agreed with.

A. Would you like the constitution changed to give Aboriginal people a voice to parliament ?

B. Would you like the constitution to remain unchanged?"

Brilliant! Other than the fact A. and B. are basically the same question, it's even dumber than that. On it's wording, if a majority say Yes to Indo-dipshit's B. question it means no referendums, on anything, forever!
Further, he states recognition and the Voice are "two completely different issues" then completely ignores one of them in both his A. and B. questions. Genius!
They are one question, recognition by establishing a Voice, the splitting into two comes from those opposing a Voice, those seeking to confuse the issue, not the Uluru statement, not the AEC.
"Would you like to recognise FNP by denying them a Voice?" is not what they asked for, it's only the default position of those opposing the Voice, a position they themselves can't even seem to agree on. "We see you but fuck off if you want to have a say in the things that affect you". Nice.
It's not a multiple choice Q and A, it's yes or no, not yes but no or no but yes. Unworkable, confusing and a fucken stupid suggestion befitting only an:
A. Idiot
B. Racist
C. Right wing conservative who doesn't give a fuck about the country or FNP but only wishes to inflict a defeat on Albo and the ALP because they defeated the piece of shit former PM and his unelectable party in the 2022 election.
or maybe,
D. A combination of above.

Either we recognise them by giving them a Voice or we don't. They don't want one without the other, they didn't ask for that, and who could blame them, recognition without a Voice means fuck all, exactly the result the No side want.

Regarding the Yes or No, ticks and crosses hysteria, option D. above says;
"I would have thought if computers are used that any mark in the box is a vote, be it a tick and x or just a line across the box" and "I think it would be best if they only accepted either Yes and No and not accepted ticks or crosses at all."
Here's what Antony Green, Australia's foremost election expert said on twitter today;
"This morning I hear the AEC’s interpretation of ticks and crosses on referendum ballot papers has arisen. Nothing new here. Comes from long standing case law interpretation and is the same ruling as applied in 1999 and 1988 referendums." @AntonyGreenElec
Maybe leave these things to the experts, the law and the AEC Indo-freeloading.

seeds Thursday, 24 Aug 2023 at 9:28pm

“Either we recognise them by giving them a Voice or we don't. They don't want one without the other, they didn't ask for that, and who could blame them, recognition without a Voice means fuck all, exactly the result the No side want.”

Nail on head, Adam12! Thumbs up

truebluebasher Thursday, 24 Aug 2023 at 9:51pm

1999 ~ Referendum Aboriginal / Migrant enrollment was very low.
2012 ~ 44% of Australians wouldn't be able to read a Ballot Paper...
2021 ~ Up to 50% of Oz > 70% of remote Aboriginals can't read the Reffo Ballot Paper
Oz has record Migrant % intake and record compulsory direct migrant enrollment
Oz currently has record Indigenous Vote Enrollments > (eg: Higher than Aboriginal School enrollment)
That sure don't add up!
Do the Maths...for > Record Compulsory Reffo / Aboriginal Direct Enrollment...
Most migrants + Aboriginals / Over Half of the Voters are illiterate & can't read the Reffo Ballot Paper

Up to 20% minority literate [YES] vs [NO] camps have indicated they're pissed & won't Vote in Reffo.

Majority of Voters have no idea what an Aboriginal or Reffo is but will decide Indigenous Status.
Yet as if by some miracle > 99% of [yes] [No] Ballots will be perfectly AEC compliant...(Shh!)

Q: Is it fair to mandate that illiterate majority of Australians run Oz Policy!
In other words : Compulsory Voting for majority illiterate populations is beyond comprehension!
How about...just sayin'
Only when Aussies think they can vote...then we let them enroll & Vote without influence! Sound Fair!
Saves the Govt bankrolling the AEC to rig more Votes each outing...getting mighty expensive!

southernraw Thursday, 24 Aug 2023 at 10:06pm

I think i learnt in primary school that putting a cross in a box doesn't mean no.
You'd have to be a pretty special kind of stupid to think it did mean no, but then, we are talking about No voters.

indo-dreaming Thursday, 24 Aug 2023 at 10:19pm

GuySmiley wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
I think it would be best if they only accepted either Yes and No and not accepted ticks or crosses at all.

And make it clear at the voting centre and booths and on the paper.

Polling Place staff in 99.99% of cases are quickly able to ascertain the voter’s intention and if in doubt confer with each other and/or the numerous scrutinisers from each political party. So no need to worry your conspiracy filled head @info

Well if thats the case as you say, then why aren't they counting ballots marked with an X. ?????

Fliplid Friday, 25 Aug 2023 at 7:18am

From the AEC website. Hard to see what all the fuss is about, just follow the instructions

“When you receive a ballot paper at the referendum, you should write 'Yes' if you agree with this proposed change to the Constitution, or you should write 'No' if you do not agree.”

https://www.aec.gov.au/referendums/learn/the-question.html

indo-dreaming Friday, 25 Aug 2023 at 7:52am

Fliplid wrote:
From the AEC website. Hard to see what all the fuss is about, just follow the instructions

“When you receive a ballot paper at the referendum, you should write 'Yes' if you agree with this proposed change to the Constitution, or you should write 'No' if you do not agree.”

https://www.aec.gov.au/referendums/learn/the-question.html

I shouldn't need to to point out the obvious but the problem is votes that are also marked with a tick will count as Yes votes, but votes marked with a X will be not counted this is a big plus for the Yes vote, because nobody is going to tick the box wanting a No vote.

But most people that make an X would be voting No, so some No votes will be lost, this is a big disadvantage for the No vote, especially when you take into account the increase in Yes votes from accepting ticks.

Yeah sure there is some degree of argument that people may use an X for a yes vote, but lets be real thats very unlikely.

The point is if you want a fair democratic election process, you need to have a fair and consistent system, either count both or dont count either.

Of course this is very easily fixed, by having two boxes one for Yes one for NO.

But this is very unlikely to happen because they are clearly trying to stack the odds in the Yes votes favour, which with how the question is worded and Yes & No answer it is already stacked in the Yes votes favour.

A two option question without No or Yes answers would be much fairer.

And not mixing up the voice with constitutional recognition would also be much fairer.

If they want us to vote on constitutional recognition provide us a seperate question so Australian can decide, dont go trying to drag votes through for the voice by using recognition as the carrot.

BTW. Who knows how many people will use a tick or a cross, but truebluebasher shared some interesting stats above and those voters are the ones who might not read things or understand properly and use a tick or cross.

GuySmiley Friday, 25 Aug 2023 at 8:16am

This disingenuous questioning of the fully independent and politically impartial Australian Electoral Commission is straight out of the Trump / far right playbook.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is either a pea-brained moronic imbecile with the cognitive abilities of a flea or a far right cultural war stooge of a mummy’s boy. Take your pick @info and if you vote no for one I’ll consider you have voted for both!!

basesix Friday, 25 Aug 2023 at 8:18am

Well, I hope y'all manage to weather this latest storm. Life sure does seem unfair and upsetting for anti-voicers.

indo-dreaming Friday, 25 Aug 2023 at 8:36am

GuySmiley wrote:
This disingenuous questioning of the fully independent and politically impartial Australian Electoral Commission is straight out of the Trump / far right playbook.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is either a pea-brained moronic imbecile with the cognitive abilities of a flea or a far right cultural war stooge of a mummy’s boy. Take your pick @info and if you vote no for one I’ll consider you have voted for both!!

What garbage, the very fact its being talked about now is important to ensure we dont have people be able to say, the results are wrong because X werent counted.

Imagine if the results were super close and this became a real issue.

Hopefully they sort it out beforehand and ensure we have fair democratic election and ensure we dont have issues like the USA has had

Fliplid Friday, 25 Aug 2023 at 8:44am

As far as I can tell Indo this is what the ballot will be, or similar. If people can't understand the simple concept of writing yes or no in a box surely we've got a bigger problem than ticks and crosses

https://www.aec.gov.au/referendums/vote/completing-the-ballot-paper.html

I'd imagine there is a fair amount of education going on in those groups tbb alluded to and those that are interested will know what to do.

If tbb's data is true then the "majority illiterate" voted in all of the previous governments we've had!

A Salty Dog Friday, 25 Aug 2023 at 9:36am

The YES, NO, X dilemma shows that Dutton has little faith in his supporters capability to string together two letters to form a word.

GuySmiley Friday, 25 Aug 2023 at 9:57am

‘What garbage’ … what part of the first paragraph would that be?

‘It’s being talked about’ …. Apart from Dutton, Sky and the right who is talking about it?

‘They sort it out’ … do you mean the fully independent and politically impartial AEC? Do you seriously want them to listen to politicians like Dutton and act against their charter?

‘Hopefully they sort it out beforehand and ensure we have fair democratic election and ensure we dont have issues like the USA has had‘ …. As I said earlier straight out of the far right playbook where they believe in rules based order until they don’t see political power in it

adam12 Friday, 25 Aug 2023 at 10:19am

"Well if thats the case as you say, then why aren't they counting ballots marked with an X. ????"

You haven't been able to use an 'X' to mark a referendum ballot paper since 1988 because 'X' is ambiguous, some people use it to mark Yes , some to mark No.
It is longstanding legal precedent,
It is not something invented for the Voice referendum to disenfranchise No voters, but that won't stop them from bitching about it like the whiny bitches they are.
Guaranteed SN's own loud whiny bitch who doesn't pay for a subscription will scream "it was rigged" if the Yes vote wins, he's already doing it.

indo-dreaming Friday, 25 Aug 2023 at 12:08pm

GuySmiley wrote:
‘What garbage’ … what part of the first paragraph would that be?

‘It’s being talked about’ …. Apart from Dutton, Sky and the right who is talking about it?

‘They sort it out’ … do you mean the fully independent and politically impartial AEC? Do you seriously want them to listen to politicians like Dutton and act against their charter?

‘Hopefully they sort it out beforehand and ensure we have fair democratic election and ensure we dont have issues like the USA has had‘ …. As I said earlier straight out of the far right playbook where they believe in rules based order until they don’t see political power in it

Pretty much all media is talking about it, i heard it talked about on the ABC radio this morning.

It just makes complete sense to get it sorted out now, rather than run the risk of issue's latter.

Imagine if the Yes vote only just got up, No voters would have every right to whinge about this.

Why take the risk when its so easy to prevent by just providing a Yes and No box.

The aim should be to have the most fair and democratic system possible.

Supafreak Friday, 25 Aug 2023 at 12:21pm

Let’s be honest here , majority of no voters will whinge regardless of the result .

sameaswas Friday, 25 Aug 2023 at 12:31pm

Fliplid wrote:
As far as I can tell Indo this is what the ballot will be, or similar. If people can't understand the simple concept of writing yes or no in a box surely we've got a bigger problem than ticks and crosses

https://www.aec.gov.au/referendums/vote/completing-the-ballot-paper.html

I'd imagine there is a fair amount of education going on in those groups tbb alluded to and those that are interested will know what to do.

If tbb's data is true then the "majority illiterate" voted in all of the previous governments we've had!

had alook at that site, is that the actual reffo ballot paper?

if it is then no probs just write yes or no.

anybody got a copy of the real deal? so we can definitely all know what were talking about?

typical yes campaign tactics, ask a question get no answer or rants of insults.

show me the ballot form! and "keep it simple stupid" (old saying).

allso why no acknowladgement of my post of foreign interference by the b.c.a. and their foreign multinationals? this is serious stuff.

sameaswas Friday, 25 Aug 2023 at 12:42pm

truebluebasher wrote:
1999 ~ Referendum Aboriginal / Migrant enrollment was very low.
2012 ~ 44% of Australians wouldn't be able to read a Ballot Paper...
2021 ~ Up to 50% of Oz > 70% of remote Aboriginals can't read the Reffo Ballot Paper
Oz has record Migrant % intake and record compulsory direct migrant enrollment
Oz currently has record Indigenous Vote Enrollments > (eg: Higher than Aboriginal School enrollment)
That sure don't add up!
Do the Maths...for > Record Compulsory Reffo / Aboriginal Direct Enrollment...
Most migrants + Aboriginals / Over Half of the Voters are illiterate & can't read the Reffo Ballot Paper

Up to 20% minority literate [YES] vs [NO] camps have indicated they're pissed & won't Vote in Reffo.

Majority of Voters have no idea what an Aboriginal or Reffo is but will decide Indigenous Status.
Yet as if by some miracle > 99% of [yes] [No] Ballots will be perfectly AEC compliant...(Shh!)

Q: Is it fair to mandate that illiterate majority of Australians run Oz Policy!
In other words : Compulsory Voting for majority illiterate populations is beyond comprehension!
How about...just sayin'
Only when Aussies think they can vote...then we let them enroll & Vote without influence! Sound Fair!
Saves the Govt bankrolling the AEC to rig more Votes each outing...getting mighty expensive!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW1-PmFznJU

it's obvious the abc are not impartial.

stan grant this week said he left Q+A because he allways strived for open civil debate and it became obvious to him that was not happening the abc honcho's were deliberately setting it up to be adversary and agressive instead of civil and inclusive, he resigned in protest and fed up with management.

GuySmiley Friday, 25 Aug 2023 at 1:04pm

Oh FFS we have close elections all the Fking time and because we have a fully independent and politically impartial umpire (AEC) people/all voters should have total confidence in the outcome regardless of the result. FFS it’s the AEC solely responsible for the wording and rules to be used in the referendum.

It’s because of the AEC the most fair and democratic election is already guaranteed

I focus Friday, 25 Aug 2023 at 1:08pm

Trumpism here already?

Undermine the process, create outrage, fearmongering, create division, win win even if you lose.

Will be interesting to see if its changed.

andy-mac Friday, 25 Aug 2023 at 2:05pm

Fliplid wrote:
As far as I can tell Indo this is what the ballot will be, or similar. If people can't understand the simple concept of writing yes or no in a box surely we've got a bigger problem than ticks and crosses

https://www.aec.gov.au/referendums/vote/completing-the-ballot-paper.html

I'd imagine there is a fair amount of education going on in those groups tbb alluded to and those that are interested will know what to do.

If tbb's data is true then the "majority illiterate" voted in all of the previous governments we've had!

Fark, if someone cannot work that out, they shouldn't be voting.

sameaswas Friday, 25 Aug 2023 at 2:10pm

GuySmiley wrote:
Oh FFS we have close elections all the Fking time and because we have a fully independent and politically impartial umpire (AEC) people/all voters should have total confidence in the outcome regardless of the result. FFS it’s the AEC solely responsible for the wording and rules to be used in the referendum.

It’s because of the AEC the most fair and democratic election is already guaranteed

show me (us) the ballot paper.

adam12 Friday, 25 Aug 2023 at 2:21pm

"Pretty much all media is talking about it, i heard it talked about on the ABC radio this morning."

That's because all of the media, owned by the right, including the IPA knobbled ABC, are seeking it's defeat because, like Dutton's LNP, they see a Voice defeat as an Albanese defeat and an unhinged chance to get back to some sort of electoral position they can win from. They don't give a fuck about FNP or the country, just power, power to rort and grift and look after the interests of their donor masters.

"Why take the risk when its so easy to prevent by just providing a Yes and No box."
"It just makes complete sense to get it sorted out now, rather than run the risk of issue's latter."

No it doesn't. Any change to the system the AEC uses to ask referendum questions would require legislative amendments to the Electoral Act. This would only give another opportunity for dicks like you and the LNP and the right wing owned media to bleat "They don't know what they are doing", "They are changing the rules", "It's not the way the courts have said it should be done", "They are trying to rig it". etc. And Dutton would oppose that as well.
The system and wording for referendums is established and has worked perfectly fine in the past two referendums. It is the one used by the apolitical AEC and has been arrived at by rule of law and careful consideration of these matters over thirty years ago.
The only thing that needs sorting out is you and those like you. Educate yourself or STFU.

GuySmiley Friday, 25 Aug 2023 at 2:18pm

I focus wrote:
Trumpism here already?

Undermine the process, create outrage, fearmongering, create division, win win even if you lose.

Will be interesting to see if its changed.

Reckon it’s been here already for years but totally agree with the other comments you make

GuySmiley Friday, 25 Aug 2023 at 2:40pm

^^^

GuySmiley Friday, 25 Aug 2023 at 3:08pm

sameaswas wrote:
GuySmiley wrote:
Oh FFS we have close elections all the Fking time and because we have a fully independent and politically impartial umpire (AEC) people/all voters should have total confidence in the outcome regardless of the result. FFS it’s the AEC solely responsible for the wording and rules to be used in the referendum.

It’s because of the AEC the most fair and democratic election is already guaranteed

show me (us) the ballot paper.

Oh FFS what is it about c**ts like you don’t get about the AEC being above politics and is totally absolutely categorically independent of all politicians politics and government. The AEC will issue the ballot papers according to their policies and procedures and not a minute beforehand

zenagain Friday, 25 Aug 2023 at 3:18pm

Bets are on how long this comment will stay up.

I reckon gone by the time I refresh my screen.

indo-dreaming Friday, 25 Aug 2023 at 3:27pm

I focus wrote:
Trumpism here already?

Undermine the process, create outrage, fearmongering, create division, win win even if you lose.

Will be interesting to see if its changed.

Its actually the complete opposite, its about preventing the possibility of Trumpism happening post election.

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