The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

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bluediamond started the topic in Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

indo-dreaming's picture
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indo-dreaming Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 5:39pm
soggydog wrote:

Indo, as far as the cash being splashed. Look at the list of Australia’s wealthiest people who are IPA members opposing the voice. I’m not sure but I’d hazard a guess that the No campaign is not under-funded by comparison to the Yes campaign.

From everything ive read and heard i dont believe thats true, but i guess we will wait and see if they both have the money we will see a similar ratio of advertising which will be ramping up now the dates been announced.

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Supafreak Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 5:40pm

My question is different to AW , my question is what do no voters believe they are going to lose if the yes vote gets up ?

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Jelly Flater Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 5:51pm

https://m.

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burleigh Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 6:06pm
Supafreak wrote:

My question is different to AW , my question is what do no voters believe they are going to lose if the yes vote gets up ?

No voters do not know what will happen. Nobody does. This is why you should vote no

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Supafreak Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 6:11pm

@burleigh , what do you believe you could potentially lose ?

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overthefalls Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 6:13pm

How will voting no to maintain the status quo improve the lives of Aboriginal people? If the no vote wins, what’s the next avenue of hope for them?

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adam12 Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 6:17pm
indo-dreaming wrote:
gsco wrote:

I know it’s a serious debate but how’s the bragging rights ID will have if the Voice doesn’t get up

Honestly i dont care about that factor.

Personally i actually think its going to very hard for the No camp to win only chance they have is the yes camp dont get the numbers in the states.

This really is a battle of David and Goliath, the Yes camp have huge huge money they quite literally pay people and organisations to push the Yes vote (about $15K a pop )

The money that will flood into advertising soon for the Yes camp will be huge and advertising will be disingenuous and misleading it will focus on recognition and peddle complete falsehoods like Aboriginal people dont have a say on affairs or a voice and many people will just believe these things.

It will play on peoples heart's instead of their heads, and most people sadly wont do the further research needed, if they did the No vote would easily get up.

And by research im not saying taking any notice of anything the No camp say, but just listening to what those on the Yes side have been saying in the past and read the documents and wants of the Yes camp, all those things are much more damming than anything the No camp can ever say.

That said if the No camp does somehow win it will be a real win for democracy because it will show people wont be swayed by big money and advertising and big corporation or sports backing things.

BTW. The Yes camp never actually lose in this, they never lose anything they dont already have, and even in the case of a no vote they will still get the Voice put in policy just like it should be and we can see exactly how great it is or isnt, they just wont get the over the top political power and political disruption the Yes camp activist crave.

Aah, you try and take a break, but I guess I'm like Dennis the Menace, I just can't help from pushing the button on some of the gems in this little piece

"It will play on peoples heart's instead of their heads,"
Which is easy when you have a heart, like FNP had when they wrote the 'Uluru Statement from the Heart", but difficult when you are a heartless racist concerned with making sure FNP don't get a say but only get told by white people what they need and already have.

"... and most people sadly wont do the further research needed, if they did the No vote would easily get up."
Hahaha. 'Resurch', like the kind Indo dipshit does. Sky News, Murdoch Newspapers, Andrew Bolt on youtube, Pauline Hanson's website, stuff like that. You can also go to the library, there's a book called "Racism for Dummies" you could borrow, you'd swear Indo wrote it but there aren't enough spelling errors in it for him to be the author. But remember, you have to pay a small fee to join the library, something I doubt Indo would ever do, anathema, and you can't make a lot of noise which is something Indo likes to do, but he gets to do it here for free so don't expect to see him there, doing his "research".

"And by research im not saying taking any notice of anything the No camp say, but just listening to what those on the Yes side have been saying in the past and read the documents and wants of the Yes camp, all those things are much more damming than anything the No camp can ever say."
Careful there, that's not the script.
"If you don't know vote No".
You will get in trouble for that, Warren and Jacinta and Dutts and the rest of the motley crew of opportunists don't want the punters finding out anything on the Yes side. They want them dumb and ill informed like you. And those '"damning" things they say, like wanting constitutional recognition thru a Voice to Parliament which can be ignored, are just so much more damning than saying something like "it's the city elite Aboriginals who are just using the bush Aboriginals to get money and power and revenge" like you say, or that it's going to mean the Voice will take freehold titles, or interfere with the Reserve Bank or stop you from going to the beach or mean we have to pay reparations or any of the innumerable lies and bullshit spun out of the No side.

"BTW. The Yes camp never actually lose in this, they never lose anything they dont already have, and even in the case of a no vote they will still get the Voice put in policy just like it should be and we can see exactly how great it is or isnt, they just wont get the over the top political power and political disruption the Yes camp activist crave."

Er, the "voice" you claim they already have " put in policy just like it should be and we can see exactly how great it is or isnt,", is the exact reason they want their own enshrined Voice, because the one "put in policy" they "already have" has sucked as far as they are concerned and would continue to suck, particularly if the LNP and Dutton ever got into power again....( had to pause for a minute to laugh at that idea)...but what has been put in policy, particularly by the right side of politics, but in essence by every Parliament going back to federation and by the colonies prior to that, has not emanated from FNP themselves but was white man's policy and it hasn't and isn't working for them. So it's their turn to devise it, in the hope it can work for them.
Lastly, this little gem "This really is a battle of David and Goliath, the Yes camp have huge huge money they quite literally pay people and organisations to push the Yes vote (about $15K a pop )"
Mmmm, okay, few questions. Who funds the IPA, the Center for Independent Studies, the Minerals Council, Advance Australia, Fair Australia The LNP, Jacinta Price and Warren Mundine-who is funding them?
And who is Gina Rinehart, Rupert Murdoch, Kerry Stokes and are they, David or Goliath?
Who is the US based International Value Advisors group? Who is fund manager Simon Fenwick, who is Whitestone Strategic?, who is RJ Dunham & Co.? Who owns Blackmores and what is his net worth?
Who is making repeated, many multiple donations of $ 14.500 to Advance which falls just short of the declaration threshold on the AEC's transparency register of Significant Third Parties. I could go on, because I have done the "research", but you are not worth any more of my time.
Anyway, I said I was done with this shit for a while so I will go now, but I do note Indo that you are in Indonesia at the moment yet still clinging on to your little racist soap box here, which I can't tell you how borked I think that is.
And if the No vote wins, you won't be bragging will you, because "Honestly i dont care about that factor." Find it hard to believe that, so we'll see.
Personally, I'm over debating this shit, it' s so tedious, (thanks for that Albo), just bring on the vote and let's see what this country is made of.

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burleigh Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 6:35pm
Supafreak wrote:

@burleigh , what do you believe you could potentially lose ?

I don't know. That's why i'm voting no. Nobody knows what will happen. Only a fool would vote yes to that.

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Supafreak Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 6:40pm

Can anyone spot who supports the no to the voice on this list ? Hard to believe the No campaign doesn’t have significant funding . https://www.forbes.com/lists/australia-billionaires/. https://www.crikey.com.au/2023/07/10/voice-to-parliament-no-campaign-eli...

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burleigh Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 6:37pm
overthefalls wrote:

How will voting no to maintain the status quo improve the lives of Aboriginal people? If the no vote wins, what’s the next avenue of hope for them?

What part of their lives needs improving? and how will voting yes improve these issues?

Next avenue of hope? are you serious.

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Supafreak Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 6:41pm
burleigh wrote:
Supafreak wrote:

@burleigh , what do you believe you could potentially lose ?

I don't know. That's why i'm voting no. Nobody knows what will happen. Only a fool would vote yes to that.

Ok , what do you fear you may lose ?

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burleigh Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 6:46pm
Supafreak wrote:
burleigh wrote:
Supafreak wrote:

@burleigh , what do you believe you could potentially lose ?

I don't know. That's why i'm voting no. Nobody knows what will happen. Only a fool would vote yes to that.

Ok , what do you fear you may lose ?

No idea. I do not trust the government, Especially spending 360 million dollars on this. And paying 15K to people to promote the yes vote smells like Con Vid all over again.

Because of this, i will be voting NO.

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Supafreak Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 6:54pm

@burleigh , so do you believe the voice to parliament is a labor government plan and that the uluru statement from the heart is just a decoy for the governments real agenda which is what exactly ? And how will the government benefit from this ?

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burleigh Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 7:02pm
Supafreak wrote:

@burleigh , so do you believe the voice to parliament is a labor government plan and that the uluru statement from the heart is just a decoy for the governments real agenda which is what exactly ? And how will the government benefit from this ?

Possibly, I don’t know. Do you 100% know that it’s not?

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overthefalls Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 7:03pm
burleigh wrote:
overthefalls wrote:

How will voting no to maintain the status quo improve the lives of Aboriginal people? If the no vote wins, what’s the next avenue of hope for them?

What part of their lives needs improving? and how will voting yes improve these issues?

Next avenue of hope? are you serious.

Do you seriously think that the lives of Aboriginal people don’t need improving? Are you aware of the disparities between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal people, especially in the areas of education and health? The policies that have been created by non-Aboriginal politicians haven’t been effective, so it would make sense to get Aboriginal people involved in policy-making processes.

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indo-dreaming Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 7:06pm
Supafreak wrote:

My question is different to AW , my question is what do no voters believe they are going to lose if the yes vote gets up ?

I don't think ive really heard people say we will lose anything, its more the possible beast that we are creating thats is the issue. (putting the moral aspects aside)

But i guess we lose constitutional equality and i guess technically we even lose being a proper democracy as one person= one vote=one influence will no longer be the case.

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burleigh Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 7:07pm
overthefalls wrote:
burleigh wrote:
overthefalls wrote:

How will voting no to maintain the status quo improve the lives of Aboriginal people? If the no vote wins, what’s the next avenue of hope for them?

What part of their lives needs improving? and how will voting yes improve these issues?

Next avenue of hope? are you serious.

Do you seriously think that the lives of Aboriginal people don’t need improving? Are you aware of the disparities between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal people, especially in the areas of education and health? The policies that have been created by non-Aboriginal politicians haven’t been effective, so it would make sense to get Aboriginal people involved in policy-making processes.

No, I asked YOU what part of their lives need improving. I’m assuming you’re white.

From what you listed do you believe a yes vote will help with these issues?

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indo-dreaming Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 7:13pm
overthefalls wrote:

How will voting no to maintain the status quo improve the lives of Aboriginal people? If the no vote wins, what’s the next avenue of hope for them?

Even if the no vote wins, the Voice will be put in policy and we will actually be able to test it and see if its the magic wand thats been suggested.

The only avenue of hope people who need it should have is themselves, because change doesn't happen un ess you make it yourself, if you expect others to make change for you or the government to make change then your never going to get it.

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overthefalls Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 7:09pm

I just told you; education and health are priorities. Yes, I think a yes vote will be a step forward.

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southernraw Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 7:11pm

Vote Yes for education.
Here's just one good reason to vote yes. First 20mins specifically.
https://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/watch/2248706115795
I've been banging on about education being a pivotal part of change since this forum began.
Stoked to hear that The Voice could have such a positive flow on effect enhancing the education of indigenous Australians. Imagine how that could change the amount of young kids from turning to crime because they have no other prospects. Imagine the flow on effects from that! Insane to picture where that could go for indigenous crew.
(if the link doesn't work just go to SBS and subscribe, it's the Road to the Referendum on NITV, ep8, the Great Australian Silence.. fantastic series that everyone who has questions should be watching)

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AndyM Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 7:13pm

Jeez Burls, it's all "leave the kids alone, it's in their best interests" when it comes to vaxxing but when there's a possibility of really helping them, you're running a mile.

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overthefalls Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 7:12pm
indo-dreaming wrote:
overthefalls wrote:

How will voting no to maintain the status quo improve the lives of Aboriginal people? If the no vote wins, what’s the next avenue of hope for them?

Even if the no vote wins, the Voice will be put in policy and we will actually be able to test it and see if its the magic wand thats been suggested.

Why/how will it still be implemented if the no vote wins?

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Supafreak Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 7:14pm

@burleigh , I believe the voice is a very simple request for recognition and a deep desire to have their own ideas and possible solutions to problems that directly impact their lives since colonisation , heard by the government now and in future generations . This isn’t a quick fix solution and it will take generations to undo the shit they are up against . They understand more than anyone the problems they face on a daily basis. Unfortunately this campaign from the no camp has people like yourself believing it’s something other than what it is . I know nothing I say will change your opinion or vote and that’s ok . Hope we get some wave’s soon, forecast looks dismal .

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overthefalls Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 7:16pm

And how do we lose “constitutional equality”?

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burleigh Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 7:17pm
AndyM wrote:

Jeez Burls, it's all "leave the kids alone, it's in their best interests" when it comes to vaxxing but when there's a possibility of really helping them, you're running a mile.

You’re acting like this can’t be done without a yes vote.
You’ve been fooled yet again.

Overthefalls crying it’s their last hope, etc.

Are you blokes really this gullible?

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indo-dreaming Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 7:25pm
overthefalls wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
overthefalls wrote:

How will voting no to maintain the status quo improve the lives of Aboriginal people? If the no vote wins, what’s the next avenue of hope for them?

Even if the no vote wins, the Voice will be put in policy and we will actually be able to test it and see if its the magic wand thats been suggested.

Why/how will it still be implemented if the no vote wins?

We are voting for the voice to be enshrined in the constitution, if its a No, it can and you would expect will still be put in as policy.

LNP wont oppose it as policy, as in years to come when it changes little they will be able to say, see we made the right decision to not put it in. the constitution. .

Over the last 50 years we have had 5 governments, so as much as id hate to think about it Labor could be in for a while, so if implemented as policy it will get a good run to be tested and when LNP get voted back in, they would be smart to just leave the voice as policy, so the activist like Marcia cant whinge and say we told you we needed it in the constitution .

Basically the Yes camp dont lose whatever happens, they will get their voice either way.

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burleigh Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 7:21pm
Supafreak wrote:

@burleigh , I believe the voice is a very simple request for recognition and a deep desire to have their own ideas and possible solutions to problems that directly impact their lives since colonisation , heard by the government now and in future generations . This isn’t a quick fix solution and it will take generations to undo the shit they are up against . They understand more than anyone the problems they face on a daily basis. Unfortunately this campaign from the no camp has people like yourself believing it’s something other than what it is . I know nothing I say will change your opinion or vote and that’s ok . Hope we get some wave’s soon, forecast looks dismal .

I believe the the yea campaign has you all believing it’s something that it’s not.

At the end of the day the indigenous Australians don’t need a yea vote. They are being used as pawns right now.

You’re right, I will never vote yes. I don’t trust the government, I’m amazed that you have such blind trust for them after the covid bullshit to be honest.

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Supafreak Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 7:24pm

@indo , it’s like you want FNP to fail and then you can say hahaha told ya so , fark man what is wrong with you .

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overthefalls Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 7:26pm

Crying gullible fools, are we? Try to keep the debate civilised and do some informed research about historical and current Aboriginal disadvantage so that you’ve got something of substance to contribute.

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indo-dreaming Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 7:30pm
Supafreak wrote:

@indo , it’s like you want FNP to fail and then you can say hahaha told ya so , fark man what is wrong with you .

Its not that i want anyone to fail, im just realistic of the problems and not living in fantasy land, change doesn't happen unless individuals make it and the key elements(education, employment/services) for anyone to prosper in remote communities where the biggest issues are will never happen as just not realistic from a practical/logistic point of view.

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truebluebasher Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 7:29pm

Accentuate the Positive...Eliminate the negative,
Latch on to the Affirmative and don't mess with Mr In-Between.

Voice Rejoice (Commemorative Rendition)

[Yes] 23 can have a cup a tea!
tbb's hot tease will Please!
Oh! [Yes] Please.. put as at Ease.

Don't Worry there's No Hurry...
45 Days to Voice yer Praise
6 Weeks until The Voice Speaks

Like whose Afraid of being Swayed
Don't be Shy there's nuthin' Sly
Nuthin' Suss, no need to Fuss!

If ya still don't know...Just hav'a go!
See! No concern, now it's your Turn!
Be sure to Shout, without a Doubt!

Dedicated to swellnet [YES] crew from us Middle of The Roadies!

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burleigh Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 7:31pm
overthefalls wrote:

Crying gullible fools, are we? Try to keep the debate civilised and do some informed research about historical and current Aboriginal disadvantage so that you’ve got something of substance to contribute.

I’m well aware of Aboriginal disadvantage. You believing a yes vote is the only option is pretty wild.
I guess you are a gullible fool. You have no idea what a yes vote will mean. None. Nobody does.

Why would you vote yes to something you know nothing about?

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overthefalls Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 7:36pm

I know enough about it to believe it will make a positive difference. What do you think is the best way to address the issue of Aboriginal disadvantage?

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Supafreak Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 7:37pm

@burleigh , if Albo and the labor party were voting no , does that mean you would then be voting yes ?

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burleigh Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 7:38pm
overthefalls wrote:

I know enough about it to believe it will make a positive difference. What do you think is the best way to address the issue of Aboriginal disadvantage?

A positive difference? You said before it’s their last hope…….
I don’t know what the best way to address it is.

That’s why im voting no

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indo-dreaming Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 7:39pm
overthefalls wrote:

And how do we lose “constitutional equality”?

Because the Voice is based on the principle that we have different constitutional rights depending on our ancestry.

This whole aspect was talked about here in depth about two weeks ago, some guy i think called Michael (not me) made some really good post about this aspect.

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burleigh Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 7:39pm
Supafreak wrote:

@burleigh , if Albo and the labor party were voting no , does that mean you would then be voting yes ?

A weird hypothetical.

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Supafreak Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 7:43pm
indo-dreaming wrote:
Supafreak wrote:

@indo , it’s like you want FNP to fail and then you can say hahaha told ya so , fark man what is wrong with you .

Its not that i want anyone to fail, im just realistic of the problems and not living in fantasy land, change doesn't happen unless individuals make it and the key elements(education, employment/services) for anyone to prosper in remote communities where the biggest issues are will never happen as just not realistic from a practical/logistic point of view.

So have you heard what FNP ideas are on addressing this ? I haven’t but I sure would love to , why do you underestimate FNP on what they are capable of ? Do you believe they are just hopeless and useless and won’t amount to anything unless they do as white man says ? You right them off before even giving them a chance at helping themselves by being involved . Unfuckingbelievable

AndyM's picture
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AndyM Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 7:43pm
burleigh wrote:
AndyM wrote:

Jeez Burls, it's all "leave the kids alone, it's in their best interests" when it comes to vaxxing but when there's a possibility of really helping them, you're running a mile.

You’re acting like this can’t be done without a yes vote.
You’ve been fooled yet again.

Overthefalls crying it’s their last hope, etc.

Are you blokes really this gullible?

Especially with the LNP in power, I'd say it can't be done.
And I've never voted Labor.

Supafreak's picture
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Supafreak Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 7:46pm
burleigh wrote:
Supafreak wrote:

@burleigh , if Albo and the labor party were voting no , does that mean you would then be voting yes ?

A weird hypothetical.

Well it’s clearly the government you don’t trust and want to do the opposite of what they’re doing . So if the labor government who is presently in power , voted no , wouldn’t you vote yes ?

overthefalls's picture
overthefalls's picture
overthefalls Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 7:49pm
burleigh wrote:
overthefalls wrote:

I know enough about it to believe it will make a positive difference. What do you think is the best way to address the issue of Aboriginal disadvantage?

A positive difference? You said before it’s their last hope…….
I don’t know what the best way to address it is.

That’s why im voting no

When I said it’s their last hope, I was alluding to comments by Noel Pearson, whose point was that it will be a very long time before there is another monumental opportunity like this. I’d hardly call him a crying gullible fool. I’d be happy to have just a fraction of that bloke’s intellect.

overthefalls's picture
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overthefalls Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 7:58pm
indo-dreaming wrote:
overthefalls wrote:

And how do we lose “constitutional equality”?

Because the Voice is based on the principle that we have different constitutional rights depending on our ancestry.

This whole aspect was talked about here in depth about two weeks ago, some guy i think called Michael (not me) made some really good post about this aspect.

What constitutional rights will Aboriginal people have that we won’t have? Do you mean they will have exclusive rights to influence the creation of policies that affect them? My understanding is that having a voice in parliament will enable them to be involved in policy-making alongside non-Aboriginal policy-makers. I don’t think the voice will grant them any exclusivity, just some involvement. What’s wrong with that?

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 8:02pm
Supafreak wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
Supafreak wrote:

@indo , it’s like you want FNP to fail and then you can say hahaha told ya so , fark man what is wrong with you .

Its not that i want anyone to fail, im just realistic of the problems and not living in fantasy land, change doesn't happen unless individuals make it and the key elements(education, employment/services) for anyone to prosper in remote communities where the biggest issues are will never happen as just not realistic from a practical/logistic point of view.

So have you heard what FNP ideas are on addressing this ? I haven’t but I sure would love to , why do you underestimate FNP on what they are capable of ? Do you believe they are just hopeless and useless and won’t amount to anything unless they do as white man says ? You right them off before even giving them a chance at helping themselves by being involved . Unfuckingbelievable

There your words not mine.

Im certain there is individuals that lift themselves up and break bad cycles but overall we know that little is changing and in some cases even getting worse, so why would you expect positive personal change to suddenly happen on a larger scale?

Making personal change is hard, but its becomes much much harder when people don't expect it and give you reasons or excuses not to change, and tell you its up to governments etc to make the changes for you.

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 8:11pm
overthefalls wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
overthefalls wrote:

And how do we lose “constitutional equality”?

Because the Voice is based on the principle that we have different constitutional rights depending on our ancestry.

This whole aspect was talked about here in depth about two weeks ago, some guy i think called Michael (not me) made some really good post about this aspect.

What constitutional rights will Aboriginal people have that we won’t have? Do you mean they will have exclusive rights to influence the creation of policies that affect them? My understanding is that having a voice in parliament will enable them to be involved in policy-making alongside non-Aboriginal policy-makers. I don’t think the voice will grant them any exclusivity, just some involvement. What’s wrong with that?

You answered your own question, one of the major problems with the voice is what it can and cant influence, wheres this line of what is Aboriginal matters or policy and what isnt?

Its rare for these things to not cross over into non indigenous matters or policy which affects everyone.

BTW. Aboriginals already influence and have a say in policy and things that affect them, the idea they dont is just complete garbage.

burleigh's picture
burleigh's picture
burleigh Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 8:20pm
Supafreak wrote:
burleigh wrote:
Supafreak wrote:

@burleigh , if Albo and the labor party were voting no , does that mean you would then be voting yes ?

A weird hypothetical.

Well it’s clearly the government you don’t trust and want to do the opposite of what they’re doing . So if the labor government who is presently in power , voted no , wouldn’t you vote yes ?

I would vote no for anything any government wants you to cote yess for without actually telling you the changes or will make.

You blokes are voting yes in the hope that something will change. In hope. Do you realise how crazy that is. The yes campaigners have made you believe this is the only hope. The same campaigners getting paid 15k to say this.

burleigh's picture
burleigh's picture
burleigh Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 8:22pm
overthefalls wrote:
burleigh wrote:
overthefalls wrote:

I know enough about it to believe it will make a positive difference. What do you think is the best way to address the issue of Aboriginal disadvantage?

A positive difference? You said before it’s their last hope…….
I don’t know what the best way to address it is.

That’s why im voting no

When I said it’s their last hope, I was alluding to comments by Noel Pearson, whose point was that it will be a very long time before there is another monumental opportunity like this. I’d hardly call him a crying gullible fool. I’d be happy to have just a fraction of that bloke’s intellect.

So you don’t actually know what if any changes will be implemented but you’re still going to vote yes in hope. While not knowing any other agendas the government may have with this vote.

overthefalls's picture
overthefalls's picture
overthefalls Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 8:26pm

The change is obvious: guaranteed recognition and involvement in parliament.

southernraw's picture
southernraw's picture
southernraw Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 8:31pm

Burleigh, did you watch the vid i posted? There's plenty of sources other than the government and mainstream media to get your information from. Thought you'd be onto that.

burleigh's picture
burleigh's picture
burleigh Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 8:35pm
overthefalls wrote:

The change is obvious: guaranteed recognition and involvement in parliament.

What kind of involvement and at what cost? you don't know, the government won't tell you. Only a fool would vote yes to something they know nothing about.

burleigh's picture
burleigh's picture
burleigh Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 8:36pm
southernraw wrote:

Burleigh, did you watch the vid i posted? There's plenty of sources other than the government and mainstream media to get your information from. Thought you'd be onto that.

I didn't see it sorry.

Are these sources claiming the 15k grants the government so kindly offered to pay?