The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

bluediamond started the topic in

Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

southernraw Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 8:51pm

No mate,. It's further up the page. Put a link to it but if you can't find it...Jump on NITV and watch Episode 8 of the Road to the Referendum. Indigenous crew talking about how a voice in parliament will make a real difference in changing the dwindling education levels. Well worth your time and will hopefully provide a clearer answer for you away from the politics.
First 20mins specifically address this.

burleigh Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 9:15pm

southernraw wrote:
No mate,. It's further up the page. Put a link to it but if you can't find it...Jump on NITV and watch Episode 8 of the Road to the Referendum. Indigenous crew talking about how a voice in parliament will make a real difference in changing the dwindling education levels. Well worth your time and will hopefully provide a clearer answer for you away from the politics.
First 20mins specifically address this.

Sorry Southern, the government funds almost all of NITV. of course you're going to get the yes propaganda from them.

southernraw Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 9:24pm

Watch or don't watch, up to you.
Plenty of information in there that might be of some benefit.
I'd imagine without the government funding NITV probably wouldn't exist, well not in it's current form.

burleigh Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 10:08pm

southernraw wrote:
Watch or don't watch, up to you.
Plenty of information in there that might be of some benefit.
I'd imagine without the government funding NITV probably wouldn't exist, well not in it's current form.

Do you really think a government funded tv National Indigenous television station will prove fair and balanced journalism for a vote that they want to get you all to vote yes? Why would they want to cast any doubt into the views minds?

southernraw Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 10:42pm

I'm more interested in what the high achieving indigenous people have to say, i don't really care what platform they're on. What's option B for getting their thoughts out there that will reach you and me and joe public?
Understand your cynicism to anything government after the last few years, but this is a long way off bodily autonomy and mandates.
I'm putting my faith in the only option that so far has ever come up for some kind of positive steps forwards for indigenous Australians. There has been no plan B until this point, so I don't see how throwing my support behind it can hurt. Doesn't change my thoughts on the government but i'm not going to live in fear and paranoia that they're out to get me through an indigenous voice to parliament.

burleigh Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 10:53pm

southernraw wrote:
I'm more interested in what the high achieving indigenous people have to say, i don't really care what platform they're on. What's option B for getting their thoughts out there that will reach you and me and joe public?
Understand your cynicism to anything government after the last few years, but this is a long way off bodily autonomy and mandates.
I'm putting my faith in the only option that so far has ever come up for some kind of positive steps forwards for indigenous Australians. There has been no plan B until this point, so I don't see how throwing my support behind it can hurt. Doesn't change my thoughts on the government but i'm not going to live in fear and paranoia that they're out to get me through an indigenous voice to parliament.

You don't believe indigenous Australians have had any positive steps forward in the last 15 - 20 years?

i do, and it's been done without the need for a political vote that will/is once again dividing a nation and the only people in the firing line are the ones that the vote is apparently for.

southernraw Wednesday, 30 Aug 2023 at 11:23pm

Some noble steps given what barriers are in place, yep, but as is pointed out in the video you won't watch, the inability to properly streamline things like education and health without redtape and bureaucracy and successive governments changing hands and changing policies/ideas/interest is what makes it an uphill battle.
From my understanding, and sure, could be wrong, but from my understanding is that by having a voice in parliament that voice can help advise the sitting government on how to better shape policies that will have maximum benefit for the betterment of indigenous Australians.
I'm interested in what you think the positive steps forward are for indigenous Australians in the last couple of decades. Considering indigenous attendance rates in education have been declining over the last few years, as well as abnormally high incarceration rates, i'd be interested how you think this is doing well?

burleigh Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 12:27am

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burleigh Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 8:16am

Anything a pharmaceutical company and qantas get behind is a definite NO

southernraw Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 8:16am

and...??

southernraw Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 8:21am

Sad that you can't see it from another perspective Burleigh but i think your thoughts are indicative of most Australians.
Anyway, i'm sick of seeing it and hearing it.
There's an obvious way of helping and moving forward right in front of us. It's not perfect. But it's a way.
Yes multinationals are going to jump on board. This is 2023. No big change is going to come without the baggage.
Yes the government is vewy vewy bad, but no change is going to happen without them...short of a revolution of the people, and we know there's just not enough indigenous people to do that.
So keep saying no, you'll probably get your way.....and then what? What are you going to do to help?
Still noticed no reply on how indigenous lives are better but i'm over it.
Have a nice day and hopefully you can see another way in time and that you can also influence your friends and family to say yes. Its not alot to ask and you won't be losing anything mate.

basesix Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 8:44am

It's getting trolly and cyclic again southern. you care about the issue, others care about the politics. there's some weird whale action on the boatramp cam (top left) - watch that instead : )
EDIT: well, there was.. pretty good flipper wave 15 mins ago.
EDIT: top right now

andy-mac Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 8:40am

southernraw wrote:
Sad that you can't see it from another perspective Burleigh but i think your thoughts are indicative of most Australians.
Anyway, i'm sick of seeing it and hearing it.
There's an obvious way of helping and moving forward right in front of us. It's not perfect. But it's a way.
Yes multinationals are going to jump on board. This is 2023. No big change is going to come without the baggage.
Yes the government is vewy vewy bad, but no change is going to happen without them...short of a revolution of the people, and we know there's just not enough indigenous people to do that.
So keep saying no, you'll probably get your way.....and then what? What are you going to do to help?
Still noticed no reply on how indigenous lives are better but i'm over it.
Have a nice day and hopefully you can see another way in time and that you can also influence your friends and family to say yes. Its not alot to ask and you won't be losing anything mate.

I respect your patience and dedication mate!
Let's hope enough Australians see it through that lens and Yes gets up. If no wins, I think it will be heartbreaking for the majority of FNP's and will move the country into a darker place.
The LNP/ Murdoch media have been disgusting sprouting misinformation and lies that should have no place in Australia. They really do thrive on creating division and hate.
Anyway, if No does get up it will be a pyrrhic victory for the LNP as the seats they need to win in an election are now generally progressive seats in wealthier areas who overwhelmingly support the Voice. It could put them in the political wilderness for a long time as it just displays their backward vision and nastiness.

burleigh Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 9:26am

andy-mac wrote:
southernraw wrote:
Sad that you can't see it from another perspective Burleigh but i think your thoughts are indicative of most Australians.
Anyway, i'm sick of seeing it and hearing it.
There's an obvious way of helping and moving forward right in front of us. It's not perfect. But it's a way.
Yes multinationals are going to jump on board. This is 2023. No big change is going to come without the baggage.
Yes the government is vewy vewy bad, but no change is going to happen without them...short of a revolution of the people, and we know there's just not enough indigenous people to do that.
So keep saying no, you'll probably get your way.....and then what? What are you going to do to help?
Still noticed no reply on how indigenous lives are better but i'm over it.
Have a nice day and hopefully you can see another way in time and that you can also influence your friends and family to say yes. Its not alot to ask and you won't be losing anything mate.

I respect your patience and dedication mate!
Let's hope enough Australians see it through that lens and Yes gets up. If no wins, I think it will be heartbreaking for the majority of FNP's and will move the country into a darker place.
The LNP/ Murdoch media have been disgusting sprouting misinformation and lies that should have no place in Australia. They really do thrive on creating division and hate.
Anyway, if No does get up it will be a pyrrhic victory for the LNP as the seats they need to win in an election are now generally progressive seats in wealthier areas who overwhelmingly support the Voice. It could put them in the political wilderness for a long time as it just displays their backward vision and nastiness.

They have made you believe this is the only hope. Do you understand that?

Sad times alright.

Jelly Flater Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 9:52am

;)

https://m.

Jelly Flater Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 11:19am

- when times are sad, but still alright…
- when beliefs and hopes are all we pretend to understand…

The time is ripe for straya to confront the big issues ;)

https://m.

sypkan Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 12:19pm

geez, that phizer voice post actually made me feel a bit nauseaous...

does anyone - both within phizer, and the real world - actually think that shit helps the call for a voice?

following on from AW's post re. aboriginal people turning to the joho's, it's obvious many aboriginal people are connected to churches, especially around remote communities. and it was obvious at the 'cooker rallies' there was a strong aboriginal presence. seemingly connected to this new age christianity / sovereign citizen / qanon pedo movement that appears to have developed almost overnight...

I don't quite get anthony mundine's position, but it seems a few blackfellas have bought into this idea that the un/wef etc. are trying harness indigenous people's lands worldwide, as some wider takeover of the lands and environment as part of the ol' "you'll own nothing and be happy" agenda...

lots of talk of communist agendas etc., which is reflective of wider arguments from all around the world against the un and wef and friends, and what they are up to...

I don't really feel strongly either way, and think some of it is quite fanciful, however, anyone who's followed agenda 21, agenda 2030, and a heap of other stuff, that is now - somewhat bewilderingly - flat out denied and portrayed as that old chestnut, 'conspiracy theory' (despite it all being on the public record) it is not surprising that these 'theories' have gained traction...

I think 'the left' really need to come clean on this shit and stop 'gaslighting' the public

(geez I hate that term... but if there ever was an appropriate application, this little shitstorm is it...)

I'm not pushing or advocating anything here, just find these developments most interesting, and believe some serious cleaning of house is required to avert the damage it is now doing to any wider environmental arguments

indo-dreaming Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 12:26pm

sypkan wrote:
geez, that phizer voice post actually made me feel a bit nauseaous...

does anyone - both within phizer, and the real world - actually think that shit helps the call for a voice?

following on from AW's post re. aboriginal people turning to the joho's, it's obvious many aboriginal people are connected to churches, especially around remote communities. and it was obvious at the 'cooker rallies' there was a strong aboriginal presence. seemingly connected to this new age christianity / sovereign citizen / qanon pedo movement that appears to have developed almost overnight...

I don't quite get anthony mundine's position, but it seems a few blackfellas have bought into this idea that the un/wef etc. are trying harness indigenous people's lands worldwide, as some wider takeover of the lands and environment as part of the ol' "you'll own nothing and be happy" agenda...

lots of talk of communist agendas etc., which is reflective of wider arguments from all around the world against the un and wef and friends and what they are up to...

I don't really feel strongly either way, and think some of it is quite fanciful, however, anyone who's followed agenda 21, agenda 2030, and a heap of other stuff, that is now - somewhat bewilderingly - flat out denied and portrayed as that old chestnut, 'conspiracy theory' (despite it all being on the public record) it is not surprising that these 'theories' have gained traction...

I think 'the left' really need to come clean on this shit and stop 'gaslighting' the public

(geez I hate that term... but if there ever was an appropriate application, this little shitstorm is it...)

I'm not pushing or advocating anything here, just find these developments most interesting, and believe some serious cleaning of house is required to avert the damage it is now doing to any wider environmental arguments

The communist twist from some involved in the voice isnt really a secret though.

We all should by know by now of Thomas Mayo's shout out to Communist elders, but there is many other examples here is Mayo again with other Voice advisory member Teela Reid admiring communist of the past in Australia.

Marcia also has marxist/communist links, of course now they are damaging she denies these things.
https://www.theunshackled.net/australian-politics/is-marcia-langton-stil...

sypkan Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 12:28pm

...also interesting - and possibly a 'development' ... that blackrock and friends, are now distancing themselves from what they were once advocating...

andy-mac Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 12:28pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
sypkan wrote:
geez, that phizer voice post actually made me feel a bit nauseaous...

does anyone - both within phizer, and the real world - actually think that shit helps the call for a voice?

following on from AW's post re. aboriginal people turning to the joho's, it's obvious many aboriginal people are connected to churches, especially around remote communities. and it was obvious at the 'cooker rallies' there was a strong aboriginal presence. seemingly connected to this new age christianity / sovereign citizen / qanon pedo movement that appears to have developed almost overnight...

I don't quite get anthony mundine's position, but it seems a few blackfellas have bought into this idea that the un/wef etc. are trying harness indigenous people's lands worldwide, as some wider takeover of the lands and environment as part of the ol' "you'll own nothing and be happy" agenda...

lots of talk of communist agendas etc., which is reflective of wider arguments from all around the world against the un and wef and friends and what they are up to...

I don't really feel strongly either way, and think some of it is quite fanciful, however, anyone who's followed agenda 21, agenda 2030, and a heap of other stuff, that is now - somewhat bewilderingly - flat out denied and portrayed as that old chestnut, 'conspiracy theory' (despite it all being on the public record) it is not surprising that these 'theories' have gained traction...

I think 'the left' really need to come clean on this shit and stop 'gaslighting' the public

(geez I hate that term... but if there ever was an appropriate application, this little shitstorm is it...)

I'm not pushing or advocating anything here, just find these developments most interesting, and believe some serious cleaning of house is required to avert the damage it is now doing to any wider environmental arguments

The communist twist from some involved in the voice isnt really a secret though.

We all should by know by now of Thomas Mayo's shout out to Communist elders, but there is many other examples here is Mayo again with other Voice advisory member Teela Reid admiring communist of the past in Australia.

Marcia also has marxist/communist links, of course now they are damaging she denies these things.
https://www.theunshackled.net/australian-politics/is-marcia-langton-stil...

Have you been checking under your bed?? ;)

indo-dreaming Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 12:32pm

andy-mac wrote:
southernraw wrote:
Sad that you can't see it from another perspective Burleigh but i think your thoughts are indicative of most Australians.
Anyway, i'm sick of seeing it and hearing it.
There's an obvious way of helping and moving forward right in front of us. It's not perfect. But it's a way.
Yes multinationals are going to jump on board. This is 2023. No big change is going to come without the baggage.
Yes the government is vewy vewy bad, but no change is going to happen without them...short of a revolution of the people, and we know there's just not enough indigenous people to do that.
So keep saying no, you'll probably get your way.....and then what? What are you going to do to help?
Still noticed no reply on how indigenous lives are better but i'm over it.
Have a nice day and hopefully you can see another way in time and that you can also influence your friends and family to say yes. Its not alot to ask and you won't be losing anything mate.

I respect your patience and dedication mate!
Let's hope enough Australians see it through that lens and Yes gets up. If no wins, I think it will be heartbreaking for the majority of FNP's and will move the country into a darker place.
The LNP/ Murdoch media have been disgusting sprouting misinformation and lies that should have no place in Australia. They really do thrive on creating division and hate.
Anyway, if No does get up it will be a pyrrhic victory for the LNP as the seats they need to win in an election are now generally progressive seats in wealthier areas who overwhelmingly support the Voice. It could put them in the political wilderness for a long time as it just displays their backward vision and nastiness.

Honestly curious on what you think Murdoch and LNP have been spouting lies or misinformation about in regards to the voice etc???

Most of the lies and misinformation i see are clearly from Abo and the yes camp, i will make a list latter to show some.

BTW. Nothing under my bed, but i dont trust anyone that has admiration for communist or communism or marxist links.

sypkan Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 12:35pm

comes down to how much you think 'communism', 'marxism', and 'socialism' are the big bad boogeyman I guess indod...

a little bit of socialism ain't all bad for most people indod

but 'neo marxism' seems to have most defintely gone all weird and wayward though...

a little bit of socialism is how oz used to be...

and the loss of this is often lamented by the likes of gsco and others - who love to throw a bit of 'woke mind virus' out there....

strange times we are living in

andy-mac Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 12:44pm

https://www.aec.gov.au/media/disinformation-register-ref.htm

https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/how-online-disinformation-is-hijack...

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/jul/13/indigenous-voice-...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jul/25/indigenous-voice-t...

https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/voice-to-parliament/low-brow-a...

https://independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/murdoch-media...

https://www.crikey.com.au/2023/08/22/lachlan-murdoch-pays-private-media-...

Na the Murdoch media/IPA machine never has an agenda.... pft.
When you have hard core commies such as Malcolm Turnbull and Chris Kenny calling it out, something is going on.

andy-mac Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 12:54pm

"TW. Nothing under my bed, but i dont trust anyone that has admiration for communist or communism or marxist links."

Neither do I but I have a soft spot for some socialist policies such as Medicare, public hospitals and schools.....

basesix Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 1:04pm

some interesting commentaries on super-funds being a weird version of workers owning means-of-production too.

AndyM Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 1:04pm

That's something I find interesting about right-wing politicians, the Murdoch press and the IPA, what is their issue?
Is it their concern about Indigenous organisations having some power and therefore being able to stand up to mining companies?
Or is it some subconscious or even conscious bigotry - white Australia is where it's at and any concessions to Indigenous people are a regression?
Hard-core liberalism where Indigenous people should simply toughen up and get on with it?
Or as alluded to by the Independent Australia article, in carving out a piece of the media landscape Murdoch is purely and simply right-wing and so everything not seen as right-wing must be opposed out of principle?
A combo?

AndyM Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 1:07pm

andy-mac wrote:
"TW. Nothing under my bed, but i dont trust anyone that has admiration for communist or communism or marxist links."

Neither do I but I have a soft spot for some socialist policies such as Medicare, public hospitals and schools.....

As has been pointed out again and again, the "best" countries in the world are social democracies i.e. an evolutionary form of democratic socialism.

andy-mac Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 1:39pm

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burleigh Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 1:53pm

Betoota 100% taking those 15k payments. It’s Covid 2.0 with these never ending government payments available for a couple of Instagram posts

AndyM Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 2:31pm

Hahahahaha!
You number one funny guy Burleigh.

andy-mac Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 2:32pm

AndyM wrote:
Hahahahaha!
You number one funny guy Burleigh.

https://www.betootaadvocate.com/breaking-news/we-interview-the-big-farma...

Fliplid Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 2:48pm

burleigh: "Betoota 100% taking those 15k payments. It’s Covid 2.0 with these never ending government payments available for a couple of Instagram posts"

Are you sure they are payments from the government?

My understanding is that the money is from the YES 23 campaign which is run by Australians for Indigenous Constitutional Recognition Ltd which isn't a government agency but privately funded.

Happy to be corrected if this isn't the case though

indo-dreaming Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 2:48pm

sypkan wrote:
comes down to how much you think 'communism', 'marxism', and 'socialism' are the big bad boogeyman I guess indod...

a little bit of socialism ain't all bad for most people indod

but 'neo marxism' seems to have most defintely gone all weird and wayward though...

a little bit of socialism is how oz used to be...

and the loss of this is often lamented by the likes of gsco and others - who love to throw a bit of 'woke mind virus' out there....

strange times we are living in

Each to their own but there's a few groups i have little to no trust in.

1. Politician's
2. Activist
3. Anyone who thinks communism or marxist ideas are a good thing.

All three seem to involved in the voice.

indo-dreaming Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 2:55pm

AndyM wrote:
That's something I find interesting about right-wing politicians, the Murdoch press and the IPA, what is their issue?
Is it their concern about Indigenous organisations having some power and therefore being able to stand up to mining companies?
Or is it some subconscious or even conscious bigotry - white Australia is where it's at and any concessions to Indigenous people are a regression?
Hard-core liberalism where Indigenous people should simply toughen up and get on with it?
Or as alluded to by the Independent Australia article, in carving out a piece of the media landscape Murdoch is purely and simply right-wing and so everything not seen as right-wing must be opposed out of principle?
A combo?

Um dude you do know some mining companies have donated big money to yes campaign?

"Companies including BHP, Rio Tinto and Wesfarmers have donated millions of dollars to the Yes campaign."
https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/business-support-for-yes-campaign-i...

Not to mention mining is one of the biggest employers of indigenous people overall and expect the biggest employer in remote communities (and good paying jobs)

Not to mention mining provides rare income streams to indigenous communities like land leases and access leases.

BTW. Its 2023 there is no such things as white Australia, its non indigenous Australia, Chinese Australians alone make up more of the population about 5.5% than Aboriginals 3.2%

My wife doesn't appreciate being called white and neither do all the countless other ethnic groups with various skin colours that make up Australia these days.

Mario Speedwagon Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 2:54pm

Prominent Indigenous voice campaigner, Professor Tom Calma AO, co-author of a report about how the voice could operate:

"Good evening and thank you Professor Sullivan for your generous introduction. Before I start, I thank Aunty Matilda and Girrawah for your important Welcome to Country and I acknowledge the Ngunnawal and Ngambri peoples and all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples joining us today both in person and virtually. Peoples who have, raised their families and cared for this country and waters for millennia before the arrival of the British that saw the subsequent dispossession of languages and identities across the nation.

I would also like to acknowledge all youth who will be our future leaders, and the custodians of our, histories and cultures. I emphasise youth because in the 2021 ABS census, 33.2 per cent of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander population was under 15 years of age and this Referendum is about the future.

Thank you, ANU and UC, for hosting this important lecture and it's great to see so many here today, in person and on-line.

Congratulations to the recipients of the Reconciliation Awards and although National Reconciliation Week has passed, reconciliation is an ongoing endeavour as the theme so aptly illustrates - "Be a Voice for Generations."

The theme is about speaking up and carrying on the work of those who came before us. To honour their legacy by acting now for those who come next. It's a call to not be silent, but to raise our voices to demand action for a better future.

We have more people than ever joining us and adding their voice to reconciliation, but it will take thousands more for us to continue to advance reconciliation.

It is also heartening to note the 2,300 organisations with a Reconciliation Action Plan and the 10,500 schools and early learning services that engage with RA's Narragunnawali program. The program aims to increase awareness among young people about Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures, histories, and experiences, helping to build peaceful and respectful relations between Australia's many cultures. It also empowers teachers and educators to teach Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander histories with curriculum resources and other resources, digital content and a biannual, national awards programs. This is the essence of reconciliation, strengthening relationships between non-Indigenous peoples and Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, for the benefit of all Australians.

Empathy and understanding the perspective of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples are paramount, and this extends to questioning our unconscious biases.

We all have unconscious biases so we must ask ourselves, "how did I land at this understanding" and "is it fact or fiction?" This is a good Segway to my next topic "the Voice".

Let's address the Voice starting with the claims that the government's Voice proposal lacks details. I believe the information is readily available and I note that the current and former governments have endorsed the Calma / Langton Final Co-Design Report as guiding the potential structure and operation of the Voice. You may recall that the Voice initiative commenced under the reign of the Morrison government and was progressed by the current government. The co-design report has been in the public domain since December 2021.

I believe it is important to recognise some of the history and initiatives that have led us to this point in our shared history and why the referendum evokes so much passionate debate from all quarters.

The call for a Voice actually started soon after the arrival of the First Fleet but I will start from the 1950's.

In 1958 the Federal Council for the Advancement of Aborigines & Torres Strait Islanders (FCAATSI) was established - it had a central role in the success of the 1967 referendum but was disbanded when the National Aboriginal Consultative Committee (NACC) was established and ran from 1973 to 77.

The NACC was an advisory body made up of 41 nationally elected Aboriginal people who advised the Minister for Aboriginal Affairs on Aboriginal policy.

The NACC was replaced by the National Aboriginal Conference (NAC) that operated from 1977 to 1984. Then there was a lapse until 1988 when a Senate Select Committee investigated the proposed Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Bill and suggests over 40 amendments most of which were incorporated. Subsequently over 90 amendments were made to the Bill during its passage through the parliament resulting in the establishment of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission (ATSIC) in 1989 until it was disbanded in 2005.

Post ATSIC the National Indigenous Council (NIC), a PM's pick group was established and lasted until soon after a change of government in 2007.

In February 2008 Prime Minister Rudd in his Apology speech to Parliament called for a new partnership with Indigenous peoples to underpin policy development. He states that:

Our challenge for the future is to embrace a new partnership between Indigenous and non-Indigenous Australians. The core of this partnership for the future is closing the gap between Indigenous and non-Indigenous Australians on life expectancy, educational achievement and employment opportunities. This new partnership on closing the gap will set concrete targets for the future.

In March 2008, the Labor Government and federal Opposition signed a Statement of Intent with the Indigenous health sector for a new partnership to close the gap in life expectancy within a generation.

This statement provided bipartisan support to:

develop a comprehensive, long-term plan of action, that is targeted to need, evidence-based and capable of addressing the existing inequities in health services, in order to achieve equality of health status and life expectancy between Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples and non - Indigenous Australians by 2030.
ensure the full participation of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples and their representative bodies in all aspects of addressing their health needs.
respect and promote the rights of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples... and
measure, monitor, and report on our joint efforts, in accordance with benchmarks and targets, to ensure that we are progressively realising our shared ambitions.
The Hon Jenny Macklin, in the Budget 2008-09: Ministerial Statement on Closing the gap stated that:

"The Australian Government's reform agenda - both in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander affairs and across governments - is to address the structural and systemic problems that are producing appalling outcomes for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.
Indigenous Australians must be involved in developing and driving solutions. Actions like the National Apology are working to build the trust needed to work together on getting results.
Our 'closing the gap' commitments require effective engagement with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people at all levels. Government needs to involve Indigenous people in the design and delivery of programs locally and regionally, and share responsibility for outcomes. Solutions developed on the ground must be driven by the communities that will ultimately determine their success or failure...
The Government went to the election with a commitment to set up a national representative body to puy0rovide an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander voice within government. We will soon begin formal discussions with Indigenous people about the role, status and composition of this body."
As the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Social Justice Commissioner in July 2008 I presented to the government an Issues Paper titled Building a sustainable National Indigenous Representative Body - Issues for consideration.

It stated that....."Without proper engagement with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, governments will struggle in their efforts to make lasting progress in improving the conditions of Indigenous people and in our communities."

Further, in a speech I presented to the National Native title Conference in 2008 I said;

"Much of the failure of service delivery to Indigenous people and communities, and the lack of sustainable outcomes, is a direct result of the failure to engage appropriately with Indigenous people and of the failure to support and build the capacity of Indigenous communities. It is the result of a failure to develop priorities and programs in full participation with Indigenous communities.

Put simply, governments risk failure - and will continue to do so - if they develop and implement policies about Indigenous issues without engaging with the intended recipients of those services. Bureaucrats and governments can have the best intentions in the world, but if their ideas have not been subject to the "reality test" of the life experience of the local Indigenous peoples who are intended to benefit from this, then government efforts will fail.

This need for participation exists at the local, regional and national levels." Again, this was said in 2008.

In August 2008 the Australian Government commenced consultations with Indigenous peoples on the establishment of a new National Indigenous Representative Body.

Following extensive consultations and a deliberative dialogue that took place in Adelaide, the National Congress of Australia's First Peoples (NCAFP) was formed in November 2009. However, a change of government and cessation of subsequent funding forced the NCAFP to go into voluntary administration in June 2019.

So, my friends you can see that there has been a checkered history of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples' attempts to establish a national Voice and have meaningful engagement with governments and bureaucrats on matters that affect us. We have been the passive recipients of government policies and programs that have mostly not addressed the wicked problems that confront us.

Over the past 65 years we have had successive national representative bodies. Their roles have also varied as has their impact on policies and programs and a constant has been the regular reviews of their structures and operations.

We are now on the cusp of substantial and substantive change in a political and community environment that is conducive to consider and support such change.

So let's explore where we are at re The Voice.

The first public milestone was reached on Monday when the Constitution Alteration (Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice) Bill that authorises the referendum and sets out the question passes the Senate 52 in favour and 19 opposed and earlier in the House of Representatives 121 in favour with 25 opposed.

If you watched or heard the proceedings of the HOR or the Senate debates or follow the media, you will observe that there are many conflicting and confusing messages in play.

So let me unpack some of the mis and dis-information and what is needed to get the Referendum over the line."

First issue; Is the Uluru Statement from the Heart and the Referendum for a Voice the same thing?

The Statement from the Heart references three key reforms; Voice, Treaty, Truth. The Statement calls for "the establishment of a First Nations Voice enshrined in the Constitution".

The proposed Referendum will only be about amending the Australian Constitution to enable the establishment of a Voice to Parliament and the Executive Government.

It is about the Commonwealth Parliament, Commonwealth government departments and entities and Commonwealth legislation. It will have no influence or involvement with state and territory affairs unless invited to by the relevant authorities. The Referendum will not address Treaty or Truth telling.

Treaty and truth telling dialogues at the national level will commence after the referendum is held.

However, at the state and territory levels processes have commenced with Treaty discussions occurring in Tasmania, NSW, Qld, and SA.

Treaty Commissions have been established in the NT and Victoria and last month Queensland's Path to Treaty was set into law with the passing of landmark legislation.

Victoria is the most advanced jurisdiction through enacting the "Advancing the Treaty Process with Aboriginal Victorians Act 2018", the First Peoples' Assembly of Victoria in 2019 and a truth telling mechanism called the Yoo-rook Justice Commission in 2021. And SA now has a legislated "Voice" and the ACT has effectively had an elected Voice since 2008.

Another question is "Why do we need to have this Referendum?"

The Referendum is a chance for our First Nations peoples to be recognised in the Constitution and enshrining an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice gives strength and status to the principles of respect and partnership.

We need a Voice so that future Governments will make better policies that will make a practical difference for First Nations people.

The Voice will mean that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples will be advising Government when, or hopefully before, decisions are made about laws and policies impacting Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Australians.

It will heal our nation and lead to better policies and practical outcomes as First Nations people know what Government needs to do when it comes to things like education, health, housing, management of country and family violence.

This is a once-in-a-generation opportunity to change our Constitution and place our Nation on a pathway to a better future. It also creates an element of redress post the 1992 High Court decision that overturned the fiction of terra nullius by recognising Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples in the Constitution. Up until 1967 "Aborigines" were referenced in the Constitution but Torres Strait Islanders have never been mentioned.

What happens after the Referendum?

As it currently stands, if successful, the Government will propose a Bill (legislation) to address the Voice composition, functions, powers and procedures". The Bill will be tabled in the House of Representative where it will be debated and typically referred to a Joint Parliamentary Committee for public consultation. It is at this stage that we will get to know the details of the Voice and if past history is an indicator, the introduced bill will be amended multiple times so what is proposed in the Bill is not necessarily what will eventuate after it passes through the Parliament - but that is the democratic process as it was with the ATSIC bill that was subjected to approximately 120 or so amendments.

You will all remember the original claim, that is still being promoted by opponents, that The Voice will operate like a third or fourth chamber of Parliament

The Prime Minister has repeatedly said the Voice would not have a veto over the decisions of Parliament. It will be an unflinching source of advice and accountability - not a third chamber nor a rolling veto.

The body will be an advisory body. It will have no ability to hinder parliamentary processes, it will not have any veto power and could not introduce legislation or change it.

The Parliament will be under no obligation to follow the Voice's advice. The House of Representatives and the Senate will continue to make laws, regulations and pass motions regardless of what the Voice may advise.

Some then say it is a toothless tiger without influence so why have it?

Well, there are a vast number of advisory bodies to the Parliament covering all sorts of issues. They include:

the Auditor-General,
the Australian National Audit Office,
the Australian Law Reform Commission,
the Australian Human Rights Commission, and
the Commonwealth Ombudsman, whose reports are tabled in Parliament. This is just democracy at work.
And let's not forget Government department and entity heads and as Julian Lesser MP recently stated in the House debates.

''The Voice will advise - just like the security services, the chief medical officer, the chief scientist, DFAT and other agencies advise.'' ''The parliament will still be supreme in matters of law and policy.''

You will also note that former High Court judges and constitutional law experts support PM Albanese's description of the Voice's powers while others do not.

Another claim is that It would divide us by race / it would give First Nations people more rights than others

This is not about race politics or dividing Australians. It is about uniting Australia and making our nation stronger.

The Voice is not about a special right - it is about a basic right. All Australians will remain equal in the eyes of the law. The only thing that changes is that there will be a permanent new body to provide advice on Commonwealth laws, policies and programs that affect First Nations people.

If it is not a special right, why should this be? Simply because Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples are the only Australian citizens who have laws specifically written for them. Further, the Constitution already references Race through Section 25, and 51(xxvi) that is known as the race power. The fact is that section 51 (xxvi) has only ever been exercised on Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples.

Another piece of dis-information relates to the reported $33bil expenditure on Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples that infers that it is disproportionate to expenditure on non-Indigenous Australians. The facts are that $33bil represents about 6 per cent of the $522.7bil spent on non-Indigenous Australians in the 2015-16 budget. What is important is to unpack what the $33bil comprises.

According to the Australian Parliament House official website in 2015 - 16, the Australian Government directly spent $14.7 billion on Indigenous people, of which 77 per cent ($11.3 billion) was through mainstream programs such as Medicare, social security childcare benefits and support for university places accessed by Indigenous people. Around 23 per cent ($3.3 billion) was on Indigenous-specific programs such as ABSTUDY, Indigenous-specific health programs, or Indigenous rangers programs. When state and territory government spending is included, mainstream spending climbs to over 80 per cent of the total expenditure on Indigenous people. So roughly $6.6bil is spent on programs to address the inequalities experienced by First Nation peoples.

One might suggest that responsible politicians should know these facts.

The final piece of dis-information I would like to address relates to claims by two Indigenous politicians, social media and some Indigenous commentators that Not all Indigenous people support the Voice and that the Voice will be dominated by elite Canberra academics. Not sure how this will be the case when only 2 of 24 Voice members will be from Canberra as outlined in the co-designed report.

It is however true that there are a wide range of views among First Nations people. Just like any group of Australians, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Australians are diverse and don't all think the same way.

However, the Voice proposal is the result of successive processes of consultation and engagement - involving thousands of individuals and engaging with communities' right across the country. First Nations leaders have been calling for this reform for decades.

I am confident there is overwhelming support within First Nations communities, which will only continue to grow. Just last week all of the land councils in the NT and the NSW Aboriginal Land Council have declared their full support for the Voice. They join the vast majority of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples nationally who support the voice.

While this is important, the reality is that the 96 per cent of the non-Indigenous voting population will determine the outcome of the referendum. This is why allies play a crucial role in having conversation with colleagues and through writing to politicians and newspapers dispelling disinformation and explaining why they should support change for a better future.

There is much more that I could say but my time is up and there is an opportunity for you to ask me questions in the Q&A session. I have endeavoured to demonstrate that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples have for over 65 years attempted to have a Voice that could guide government and the parliament on how to effectively design and implement policies and programs that will have a positive impact to achieve equality for all First Nations Australians. We are experiencing advancements but not at the pace experienced by other Australians and this results in the Gap not Closing.

I have also endeavoured to shine a light on the way forward and how all of the voting population needs to become informed of the facts and not be swayed by the mis and disinformation that are being promoted by pundits who are ill-informed or have malicious intent.

Thank you."

burleigh Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 3:29pm

Here we go. Mis-information and conspiracy theories claims are getting thrown around now.

Also noticed that some influential indigenous Australians are now calling no voters racists.

Scrap the whole fucking thing.

Supafreak Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 3:39pm

basesix Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 3:45pm

Westofthelake wrote:
Yes, some just have No idea

image upload

AndyM Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 4:02pm

andy-mac wrote:
AndyM wrote:
Hahahahaha!
You number one funny guy Burleigh.

https://www.betootaadvocate.com/breaking-news/we-interview-the-big-farma...

"Next thing you know, I’m being accused of single-handedly masterminding a plan to create bioengineered viruses and genetic mutations induced by 5G technology to control the minds of suburban mums and dads with nothing else to worry about in their rather comfortable middle class lives.”"

It's an accusation so many of us have had to live with.

AndyM Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 4:06pm

And thanks Mario Speedwagon, I'm gonna keep on loving you.

burleigh Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 4:12pm

basesix wrote:
Westofthelake wrote:
Yes, some just have No idea

image upload

For me personally, this has nothing to do with race. You can paint whatever picture you want.

AndyM Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 4:13pm

Indo show me the non-whites in government (especially the LNP), and in the top levels of corporate power.
Let me help you, and I'll say it slow so you can keep up.

In a Proudly Diverse Australia, White People Still Run Almost Everything.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/10/world/australia/study-diversity-multi...

Roughly 94 percent of Parliament is of Anglo-Celtic or European heritage and among Australia’s federal and state government department heads, the homogeneity is even more pronounced: 99 percent of the leadership is Anglo-Celtic or European.

Ya follow?

truebluebasher Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 4:39pm

Reffo Booklets are in circulation...tbb scored one from Australia Post (today)...but...
Big But! Oz Post declared they're not available in store.
Obviously some VIP left it behind then tbb reclaimed it!

Double Check!
Even phoned Oz Post...Chick took 2mins > 5mins Like Hello! > Wait! ...taking longer...
Think the dispatch chick was actually stunned that they aren't a prime Reffo Booklet provider!

No Way...We're Not a Reffo Booklet Provider....it's not on their Radar apart from mail outs!

Chick then went further & instructed tbb not to start such secret taboo rumour.
Just saying...tbb is killing that rumour now...Oz Post know shit & couldn't give a ...(just don't ask!)
tbb is havin' a squizz around to see who the hell gives a damn or who's game enough to stock them.
At this stage...can share someone or persons in Burleigh had one...now tbb scored it!
Theory!
Reckon some dude got it in their Priority Mail & thought less of it, but enough to hand it on to others!
Kinda like a Timetable or Daily Paper in yer Health Clinic...expect we'll find more stray copies that way!

Recap...Just sharing that...
The booklet may have been posted pre Albo's Call or on same day for tbb to score 2nd hand copy today!

basesix Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 4:46pm

I don't think it is about race either, burleigh, it's about indigeneity and having more voices contributing to the future of our country. I just like this cartoon, for the no voters who pull the race card (cheers Westof).

AndyM Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 4:59pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
sypkan wrote:
comes down to how much you think 'communism', 'marxism', and 'socialism' are the big bad boogeyman I guess indod...

a little bit of socialism ain't all bad for most people indod

but 'neo marxism' seems to have most defintely gone all weird and wayward though...

a little bit of socialism is how oz used to be...

and the loss of this is often lamented by the likes of gsco and others - who love to throw a bit of 'woke mind virus' out there....

strange times we are living in

Each to their own but there's a few groups i have little to no trust in.

1. Politician's
2. Activist
3. Anyone who thinks communism or marxist ideas are a good thing.

All three seem to involved in the voice.

Indo could you please help me out - how are communist and/or Marxist ideas involved in The Voice?

AndyM Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 5:03pm

And Indo and Burleigh, Marcia Langton is wondering if you're involved with "Trump-like cult groups".

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/aug/04/indigenous-voice-...

I think with Burls the answer is a clear Yes.

velocityjohnno Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 5:08pm

I've found an explanation for what is going on that is the best I've seen - worth a read whether you are yes or no.

https://tapri.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/Voice-finalV5.pdf

AndyM Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 5:15pm

Great find VJ.

burleigh Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 5:18pm

AndyM wrote:
And Indo and Burleigh, Marcia Langton is wondering if you're involved with "Trump-like cult groups".

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/aug/04/indigenous-voice-...

I think with Burls the answer is a clear Yes.

Trump 2024

velocityjohnno Thursday, 31 Aug 2023 at 5:41pm

I'm beginning to wonder Andy if Australia is about to have it's Trump/Brexit moment.

(In the case of Trump, bringing the working class manufacturing jobs back was a key point after they had been utterly betrayed by trade policy since the mid 1990s... he sort of did, sort of didn't. Biden's huge printing for infrastructure has ironically continued the theme with gusto, watch the US reindustrialise at pace, as it now realises the scale of the contest to come. For Brexit they've lessened their GDP and have been lost in the woods policy wise, but their tool shops are spooling up, especially defence and technology, which is where they will need to be.)

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