The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Celebrate indigenous players by all means but given there is zero recognition of any other ethnicities playing the game it is incredibly discriminatory and over-the-top to put indigenous players and culture on some sort of pedestal that we are all meant to swoon over. As indo and others (incl aboriginals) have said, 'welcome to country', 'respecting (only indigenous) elders' and flags of all descriptions a-flutter is all feel-good fluff which doesn't touch the surface of what really happens in indigenous communities.
indo-dreaming wrote:@Andy please answer the question above then that i asked Paul
Your question is based on garbage and you’re a grubby troll.
Probably done more so because of the Indigenous history of 40000 plus years in this country Cockee, as opposed to other ethnicities that aren't actually from this country. A little recognition for a people who's land was stolen off them offends you??
Paul McD wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:Paul McD wrote:Indo, your two and only two indigenous voices you have hitched your wagon to are both Liberal party members.
Any chance of broadening your horizons??Okay just answer this one question please.
If racism is the big problem as you suggest.
Then why by far are the biggest indigenous problems found in remote communities where 99% of people are indigenous and where indigenous culture is strongest and where they have the most freedom to live as they want and elders ect have most control of their communities.
?????
While indigenous people that live side by side with non indigenous people in cities ect have far far far less issues and generally live and achieve in the same ways non indigenous people do.
But if racism was the major root of these problems as you believe it is, shouldn't the outcome be the exact opposite??
Id really love to hear your explanation on this.
BTW. As pointed out Warren Mundine had a much longer deeper involvement in the Labor party then LNP he was even national president of the Labor party, Anthony Dillion is not involved in politics and although he works for some Catholic College he has made it clear may times he is not religious.
Fark Indo. Really? We've been over this in this very thread, and no matter what i produced you still couldn't see it/ignored it. You want me to do that again? No way. Go back and look for yourself. It's all there.
I can see you have your beliefs and they're not going to change. An open perspective on the topic, especially in the situation of putting yourself in others shoes, i.e Indigenous Australians and thinking of the situation from that perspective would be something i think all of us could benefit from.
Go back and read it all. We thrashed these exact points out.
Argh okay i thought we had a new poster but judging by these cliche views I'm guessing Blue Diamond.
So yeah no surprise that you can't answer this question that you or nobody else has ever been able to answer, along with why PNG sees almost all the same issues but is 9.99% Papuan (no racism issues) and never had the impact of colonialism like Australia has. (very minimal exposure to colonialism)
Because both PNG and Australia indigenous groups have the same issues of being disconnected from the rest of the world for so long, where their culture was very roots style and hasn't been influenced by the outside world and cultural aspects reformed especially in regards to treatment of women, both cultures have roots in very patriarchal societies.
AndyM wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:@Andy please answer the question above then that i asked Paul
Your question is based on garbage and you’re a grubby troll.
Just admit it you cant answer the question, it's a very reasonable question to ask.
Bu dont worry NOBODY has ever been able to answer it.
BTW: Having a civil mature discussion is not trolling, trolling is what Facto does, not engaging in meaningful conversation at all but just abusing people or baiting people etc
Ahh Indo. Why do i even bother......
Yep. BD. Yep Cliched views. Guilty guilty...moving along.....
It very much sounds like you think “putting heaps of milk in the coffee” is the best way to deal with this issue.
So what are your thoughts on eugenics?
AndyM wrote:It very much sounds like you think “putting heaps of milk in the coffee” is the best way to deal with this issue.
So what are your thoughts on eugenics?
Haha!
indo-dreaming wrote:AndyM wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:@Andy please answer the question above then that i asked Paul
Your question is based on garbage and you’re a grubby troll.
Just admit it you cant answer the question, it's a very reasonable question to ask.
Bu dont worry NOBODY has ever been able to answer it.
BTW: Having a civil mature discussion is not trolling, trolling is what Facto does, not engaging in meaningful conversation at all but just abusing people or baiting people etc
It’s my observation over the years this issue and other like ones always comes back to this stalemate.
It’s really not about this indigenous issue as discussed above the “real” issue for people like @info is one of free speech where he wants to “constructively” engage in the discussion with ideas cherry picked from obscure or isolated minority and in the eyes of some offensive sources. He isn’t for turning and understandably attracts abuse (also from me in the past) at which time he cries foul. Like @zen I don’t think @info is racist but he seems to lack an understanding that words matter and can cut like a dagger and can cause more harm than getting abused or trolled.
I’m hoping @info has a good break away from the keyboard in indo, gets pitted, reads Dark Emu like he promised he would do when next in indo and comes back more reflective on his strident positions on complex social issues.
Rant over and out.
GuySmiley wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:AndyM wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:@Andy please answer the question above then that i asked Paul
Your question is based on garbage and you’re a grubby troll.
Just admit it you cant answer the question, it's a very reasonable question to ask.
Bu dont worry NOBODY has ever been able to answer it.
BTW: Having a civil mature discussion is not trolling, trolling is what Facto does, not engaging in meaningful conversation at all but just abusing people or baiting people etc
It’s my observation over the years this issue and other like ones always comes back to this stalemate.
It’s really not about this indigenous issue as discussed above the “real” issue for people like @info is one of free speech where he wants to “constructively” engage in the discussion with ideas cherry picked from obscure or isolated minority and in the eyes of some offensive sources. He isn’t for turning and understandably attracts abuse (also from me in the past) at which time he cries foul. Like @zen I don’t think @info is racist but he seems to lack an understanding that words matter and can cut like a dagger and can cause more harm than getting abused or trolled.
I’m hoping @info has a good break away from the keyboard in indo, gets pitted, reads Dark Emu like he promised he would do when next in indo and comes back more reflective on his strident positions on complex social issues.
Rant over and out.
Nailed it @guysmiley.
Exactly why i can't be farked engaging in a pointless dialogue with I.D.
I wonder if I.D could ever picture himself being black, and how his life would be different in this country. I know personally in my home town that it's not everyday that you see an indigenous Australian in my white home town. How would i feel as an indigenous Australian walking down the street, into all the shops, past the older generation....what sort of response would i be feeling as opposed to being an 'ordinary' whitefella in this situation. Would i feel paranoid? Would i feel like an outcast? Would i feel anger that i'm an outcast on my own land? I could go on. How would Indo Dreaming feel if he was Blackfella Indo Dreaming? There's so many intricacies that get overlooked.
GuySmiley wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:AndyM wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:@Andy please answer the question above then that i asked Paul
Your question is based on garbage and you’re a grubby troll.
Just admit it you cant answer the question, it's a very reasonable question to ask.
Bu dont worry NOBODY has ever been able to answer it.
BTW: Having a civil mature discussion is not trolling, trolling is what Facto does, not engaging in meaningful conversation at all but just abusing people or baiting people etc
It’s my observation over the years this issue and other like ones always comes back to this stalemate.
It’s really not about this indigenous issue as discussed above the “real” issue for people like @info is one of free speech where he wants to “constructively” engage in the discussion with ideas cherry picked from obscure or isolated minority and in the eyes of some offensive sources. He isn’t for turning and understandably attracts abuse (also from me in the past) at which time he cries foul. Like @zen I don’t think @info is racist but he seems to lack an understanding that words matter and can cut like a dagger and can cause more harm than getting abused or trolled.
I’m hoping @info has a good break away from the keyboard in indo, gets pitted, reads Dark Emu like he promised he would do when next in indo and comes back more reflective on his strident positions on complex social issues.
Rant over and out.
Great comment.
AndyM wrote:It very much sounds like you think “putting heaps of milk in the coffee” is the best way to deal with this issue.
So what are your thoughts on eugenics?
I will answer your question but i expect you to try to answer mine in return.
Eugenics, well firstly just by asking this you clearly dont understand where Im coming from.
I dont believe any ethic group is better or smarter than the other, this isn't about DNA or ethnicity or skin colour it's about culture.
For instance Asians in most multicultural developed countries are generally the highest achievers in regard to education and even often income, it's not genetics though it's culture, a culture of discipline and expectation from parents/family to achieve ect.
They are also the lowest represented in the criminal justice system in most multicultural developed countries, again this comes down to culture and family expectations etc
Other cultural factors that provide them an advantage in many areas is a higher chance of having big parents and a strong family unit
And it's no about wealth levels, even poor newly arrived Asian immigrants children have shown to excel in areas like education and go on to be high achievers in other areas.
Other than Asians in most multicultural developed countries you can see cultural based success from other groups like Indians or even Nigerians.
Nigerians are the interesting one being one group from a much larger continent of evince groups the from an outsiders view on the face of things din seem the different, however not sure about in Australia but in the USA and UK they are also one of highest achieving groups both in education and income.
The opposite is true of many ethic groups in all developed countries because of cultural elements.
The problems seen in PNG are obvious a result of culture and it's hard to argue over wise, however i have no doubt that if the English had also settled in PNG in the same way they had Australia all these problems would be blamed on colonisation etc which is just lazy claptrap.
@Guy I wont be reading Dark Emu the main points of his book have been throughly debunked by quite a few now including well respected anthropologist Peter Sutton, id much rather read his book debunking it "Farmers or Hunter and Gathers"
Paul McD wrote:GuySmiley wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:AndyM wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:@Andy please answer the question above then that i asked Paul
Your question is based on garbage and you’re a grubby troll.
Just admit it you cant answer the question, it's a very reasonable question to ask.
Bu dont worry NOBODY has ever been able to answer it.
BTW: Having a civil mature discussion is not trolling, trolling is what Facto does, not engaging in meaningful conversation at all but just abusing people or baiting people etc
It’s my observation over the years this issue and other like ones always comes back to this stalemate.
It’s really not about this indigenous issue as discussed above the “real” issue for people like @info is one of free speech where he wants to “constructively” engage in the discussion with ideas cherry picked from obscure or isolated minority and in the eyes of some offensive sources. He isn’t for turning and understandably attracts abuse (also from me in the past) at which time he cries foul. Like @zen I don’t think @info is racist but he seems to lack an understanding that words matter and can cut like a dagger and can cause more harm than getting abused or trolled.
I’m hoping @info has a good break away from the keyboard in indo, gets pitted, reads Dark Emu like he promised he would do when next in indo and comes back more reflective on his strident positions on complex social issues.
Rant over and out.
Nailed it @guysmiley.
Exactly why i can't be farked engaging in a pointless dialogue with I.D.
I wonder if I.D could ever picture himself being black, and how his life would be different in this country. I know personally in my home town that it's not everyday that you see an indigenous Australian in my white home town. How would i feel as an indigenous Australian walking down the street, into all the shops, past the older generation....what sort of response would i be feeling as opposed to being an 'ordinary' whitefella in this situation. Would i feel paranoid? Would i feel like an outcast? Would i feel anger that i'm an outcast on my own land? I could go on. How would Indo Dreaming feel if he was Blackfella Indo Dreaming? There's so many intricacies that get overlooked.
Funny when you or others try to bring up scenarios like this but forget that one of my best mate's has indigenous background not black but still brown, while another mate whom i also lived with for a while is indigenous and has much darker skin, back then when we were living together with others, it barely was mentioned or even thought about.
Only difference between them me and my other mates was they pulled much more chicks.
Re reading 1st post above lots of mistakes, i didnt get to edit properly as was in a rush but you get the idea.
And meant "both parents" not big parents :D damn auto spell or maybe its my denial of needing glasses
indo-dreaming wrote:Paul McD wrote:GuySmiley wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:AndyM wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:@Andy please answer the question above then that i asked Paul
Your question is based on garbage and you’re a grubby troll.
Just admit it you cant answer the question, it's a very reasonable question to ask.
Bu dont worry NOBODY has ever been able to answer it.
BTW: Having a civil mature discussion is not trolling, trolling is what Facto does, not engaging in meaningful conversation at all but just abusing people or baiting people etc
It’s my observation over the years this issue and other like ones always comes back to this stalemate.
It’s really not about this indigenous issue as discussed above the “real” issue for people like @info is one of free speech where he wants to “constructively” engage in the discussion with ideas cherry picked from obscure or isolated minority and in the eyes of some offensive sources. He isn’t for turning and understandably attracts abuse (also from me in the past) at which time he cries foul. Like @zen I don’t think @info is racist but he seems to lack an understanding that words matter and can cut like a dagger and can cause more harm than getting abused or trolled.
I’m hoping @info has a good break away from the keyboard in indo, gets pitted, reads Dark Emu like he promised he would do when next in indo and comes back more reflective on his strident positions on complex social issues.
Rant over and out.
Nailed it @guysmiley.
Exactly why i can't be farked engaging in a pointless dialogue with I.D.
I wonder if I.D could ever picture himself being black, and how his life would be different in this country. I know personally in my home town that it's not everyday that you see an indigenous Australian in my white home town. How would i feel as an indigenous Australian walking down the street, into all the shops, past the older generation....what sort of response would i be feeling as opposed to being an 'ordinary' whitefella in this situation. Would i feel paranoid? Would i feel like an outcast? Would i feel anger that i'm an outcast on my own land? I could go on. How would Indo Dreaming feel if he was Blackfella Indo Dreaming? There's so many intricacies that get overlooked.Funny when you or others try to bring up scenarios like this but forget that one of my best mate's has indigenous background not black but still brown, while another mate whom i also lived with for a while is indigenous and has much darker skin, back then when we were living together with others, it barely was mentioned or even thought about.
Only difference between them me and my other mates was they pulled much more chicks.
Reckon you're the only one with indigenous mates Indo?
That has nothing to do with your ideology. Nor mine.
Fuck i'd hope not!! Makes me wonder why you'd even say that.
I honestly wonder if you've ever considered what it's like to be an indigenous Australian living in your own country, that was stolen off of you, and being on the wrong side of the tracks because you're not of the white class.
Having mates that are indigenous is not living through their eyes.
Argh fuckit. I engaged. Dammit! I'll go and headbutt the wall now. As you were Indo. We both know this convo is only going to go the same old way.
Paul McD wrote:I honestly wonder if you've ever considered what it's like to be an indigenous Australian living in your own country, that was stolen off of you, and being on the wrong side of the tracks because you're not of the white class.
Having mates that are indigenous is not living through their eyes.
The problem with people like you is you want everyone to be a victim, well the reality is not all indigenous people feel like victims, many like my mates dont even think or care about their indigenous background, in the same way i dont care much for my ethnic background.
Anyway i would have changed my profile name too after all the embarrassing anti vaxer crap you posted last year.
BTW. it's 2023 Australia is made up of a huge mix of people of ethnic backgrounds and skin colour shade's, your "white class" and other "white this or that" lines are outdated, non indigenous is a better term to describe Australians who are not indigenous.
Indo 'BTW. it's 2023 Australia is made up of..'
Er, what year is it?
AndyM wrote:“The major indigenous issues these days have nothing to do with….the past”
Indo you’re so unbelievably ignorant.
Devastatingly ignorant.
adam12 wrote:Indo 'BTW. it's 2023 Australia is made up of..'
Er, what year is it?
ha ha i was multi tasking doing 2023 bookings, i should leave multitasking upon to my missus who can actually do it with success.
Rabbits68 wrote:AndyM wrote:“The major indigenous issues these days have nothing to do with….the past”
Indo you’re so unbelievably ignorant.
Devastatingly ignorant.
The point is what are the main drivers?
Social economic disadvantage and generations of welfare dependency etc??
Cultural drivers? (such as we also see in PNG)
Or the past??
I't's completely ignorant to ignore the first two drivers, there is so much evidence for these two aspects, but very little too none for the last one, which is more a theory, for all we know if Australia had never been colonised or in a similar way to PNG but still been thrust into a modern world as all countries are bound too be, what's to say Indigenous people wouldn't still face many of the problems seen now or like seen in PNG.
The evidence is also in all the successful indigenous people that don't have exposure to negative cultural aspects, and have a decent education and decent employment and as a result, all the issues that face other indigenous people especially in remote communities are not seen at any higher levels than the general population.
If the past was such a big factor, they also wouldn't be able to escape it.
People need to start actually thinking about things and no jus blindly believing cliche outdated views and listening to what indigenous people like Jacinta, Anthony and Warren are saying
“ Social economic disadvantage and generations of welfare dependency etc??
Or the past??”
How can you not link the two??
Indo you continue to drag the conversation through the sewer.
This post was created as a platform for those who understand there is a need to address an obvious issue and share ideas of a way forward.
You come on here, listen to no one, stay at the same base level of intelligence that you've shown throughout this thread for the last year and then have the gall to insult me. All during a culturally significant week for indigenous Australians.
Put your name to your profile if you're gonna throw insults mate.
That's why i changed mine. Accountability.
I don't want to change your opinion. I don't want to debate you. You're a proven nuisance that is stuck in your conservative shackles.
One handy hint. Just because you can put lots and lots of words in a post, doesn't necessarily give it substance or truth.
AndyM wrote:“ Social economic disadvantage and generations of welfare dependency etc??
Or the past??”
How can you not link the two??
You can't break the cycle when people live in areas where there is little to no employment options and in most cases never will be.
One hundred years from now nothing will be different.
So what’s your point?
You know who i am Paul and i know who you are, judging by your FB profile you actually appear to be a fairly normal bloke,(unlike your mate Facto) i have nothing against you personally, i just strongly disagree with your views.
Views that i once beleived myself and parrotted (especially the first page or two) i then actually expanded my views and started actually thinking about things logically and listening to people like Jacinta, Anthony, Warren.
It tends to sound like you’re in favour of bundling up remote area indigenous people and shipping them off to the cities to put them to work.
Most of this thread has been wasted trying to simplify and explain obvious truths to you Indo. (and hutch!).
No more from me. Wasted time and effort.
Happy to share ideas and listen to others thoughts on the subject.
I would say that largely the problems facing indigenous Austrlians exist's because of people like you and your rigid unchanging views Indo.
AndyM wrote:It tends to sound like you’re in favour of bundling up remote area indigenous people and shipping them off to the cities to put them to work.
Ha ha not exactly
In all honestly i dont have the soloution or even heard a realistic soloution to this issue.
Its problematic because you need to get these people to where there is jobs, education and other services or nothing will ever change.
But by doing so you are always going to be seen as destroying culture, taking people from traditional lands etc
So much money is spent on indigenous issues for little results, maybe some of that money could be used for a resttlement scheme that is completely up to the individual but rewards them with housing and employment.
I'm strongly against race based policy, but there is ways around that for instance things could be based on other factors instead like certain community's only being able to apply
Also mining operations etc should have to give employment priority of lower skilled jobs to people living within say 1000km and have to provide training in nearby communities to help people gain employment.
Paul McD wrote:Most of this thread has been wasted trying to simplify and explain obvious truths to you Indo. (and hutch!).
No more from me. Wasted time and effort.
Happy to share ideas and listen to others thoughts on the subject.
I would say that largely the problems facing indigenous Austrlians exist's because of people like you and your rigid unchanging views Indo.
Okay gotcha so im the reason why indigenous women are up to 80 times more likely to experience domestic violence than other Australian women.
Of course it has nothing to do with thousands of years of culture that sees women as objects of men in a high patriarchal society.
indo-dreaming wrote:Paul McD wrote:Most of this thread has been wasted trying to simplify and explain obvious truths to you Indo. (and hutch!).
No more from me. Wasted time and effort.
Happy to share ideas and listen to others thoughts on the subject.
I would say that largely the problems facing indigenous Austrlians exist's because of people like you and your rigid unchanging views Indo.Okay gotcha so im the reason why indigenous women are up to 80 times more likely to experience domestic violence than other Australian women.
Of course it has nothing to do with thousands of years of culture that sees women as objects of men in a high patriarchal society.
All you need is more milk in the coffee, right?
For decades Australia passed laws that prevented aboriginal people being included in Australian society equally. We had a white Australia policy ffs.
So I think saying. “They’re doing it to them selves and they need to clean their
act up and the Uluru statement of the heart won’t change anything, is to deny that generations of disaffected aboriginal people have faced trauma because of statements then laws passed in our history by largely white men. That is a fact and in no way should any of you white precious men start on about “white guilt “ blah blah. And as a result aboriginal people have higher rates of poor outcomes in life.
If the Uluru Statement of the Heart changes the National mindset towards National unity and a combined effort to help everyone one up then it is extremely important as policy and laws are ideas and tools to shape the future in a direction that started as a statement.
Then as an understanding community we can tackle the isolated community issues together. Because regardless of what some of you may think because you had a couple of aboriginal mates, living and working all over Western Australia we’ve still got a long way to go before we have an equal society. And people’s mind set is a large part of that.
So, we just discount what Jacinta Price has said because she is a liberal?
Indo said"-Education
-Employment
-Health care
-Cultural change & true truth telling."
Isn't this a start?
This mirrors what other indigenous leaders have been calling for. It's one thing to get some type of formal recognition but unless that is followed up with practical solutions nothing will really change.
"Currently, we have 10 entities working on the ground with the people of Cape York and Cairns to break the cycle of disadvantage.
This work includes creating pathways to all forms of education, meaningful employment, leadership opportunities, cultural preservation and healthcare."
oxrox wrote:So, we just discount what Jacinta Price has said because she is a liberal?
Not at all, but she’s just one voice.
And let’s face it. What she said is pretty convenient for some.
You seriously think what she is saying is for convenience? There appears to be more than one voice. From indigenous people. Why is it discounted so quickly and easily? There needs to be a solution but to just turn a blind eye to what these people are saying will not be the solution IMO.
soggydog wrote:oxrox wrote:So, we just discount what Jacinta Price has said because she is a liberal?
Not at all, but she’s just one voice.
And let’s face it. What she said is pretty convenient for some.
and seems to be inconvenient for others
oxrox wrote:You seriously think what she is saying is for convenience? There appears to be more than one voice. From indigenous people. Why is it discounted so quickly and easily? There needs to be a solution but to just turn a blind eye to what these people are saying will not be the solution IMO.
No I don’t think Jacinta price is wrong at all. Nor Warren Mundine.
I think a National statement changes the thinking of the nation. We can get good health care, education, historic truths told etc etc. But if the bias and prejudice is still carried by certain parts of the wider community we haven’t fixed the whole problem have we. Like treating the symptoms not the cause. With a National statement we have clear direction of where we want society to head. That’s all.
And the statements by Jacinta and Warren are convenient for those who want to make it an aboriginal problem as opposed to an Australian problem.
You know pull your boots up and all as opposed to we’re all in this together.
soggydog wrote:And the statements by Jacinta and Warren are convenient for those who want to make it an aboriginal problem as opposed to an Australian problem.
You know pull your boots up and all as opposed to we’re all in this together.
+1 to that and your above comments SD.
stan grant just on abc...
'...there is wide support for an aboiginal voice from the wider community...'
about putting it to referendum...
'...the past election has been portrayed as large call for change...
...I don't think that's right... it was more a cathartic election than anything... evidenced by the wide spread of votes to independents and greens with no obvious winner....'
yes this!!!
so so much!
hardly anyone saying this, all the self interested 'voted ins' are seeing what they want to see...
'...a referendum needs to be a convimcing win...
...labor voted in on just 30% of primary vote gives little indication of wide support for labor agenda...
...proponents of uluru statement need to be careful to elevate the cause above the general domestic politics or it will just get bogged down in a referendum...'
yes! yes!! yes!!!!
I have little hope of labor's capacity to do this, as they are caught up in their own little well of hubris
...again...
fuelled by the suppossed "vote for change"
just like the greens, and many independents...
not saying it won't get up, or shouldn't get up
just pointing out the mechanics of it all
"...But if the bias and prejudice is still carried by certain parts of the wider community we haven’t fixed the whole problem have we..."
and another yes! also...
Where did Jacinta Price mention anything about pulling your socks up etc etc? I think they all are just saying what is being put forward won't solve the problem. I for one am going to listen to these people as well as the other side put forward. We are possibly going to referendum.
Mundine and Dillon put forward their broad views and Price put up a personal perspective view. These people need to be heard as well as people with opposing views to them. Indigenous views are the ones I will be listening to and they are.
Yep. Important to listen to ALL voices.
Did the song put forward any possible solutions?
Just highlighting another side that may be a result of 200 years of dispossession @oxrox. Good to listen to as many voices as possible as pointed out above..
And yep...Not sure if you listened to it, but yeah, there was one possible solution put forward in the last couple of lines in the song by the female artist. Black Australia Policy you might call it.
And whether you like that or not (can't imagine many non indigenous would), you couldn't mount a reasonable argument of it being an unfair philosophy based on Australian history since settlers arrived.
Hence a better solution should be something we all strive towards and learn from after 200years of failed government policies as well a change in perspective from the wider Australian society. Without change, things will just keep going as they are now. It's up to all of us to be pro active in this and not sit back and let it sort itself out. And i think that includes changing perceptions on forums like this.
Cheers.
Fliplid wrote:Indo said"-Education
-Employment
-Health care
-Cultural change & true truth telling."Isn't this a start?
This mirrors what other indigenous leaders have been calling for. It's one thing to get some type of formal recognition but unless that is followed up with practical solutions nothing will really change.
"Currently, we have 10 entities working on the ground with the people of Cape York and Cairns to break the cycle of disadvantage.
This work includes creating pathways to all forms of education, meaningful employment, leadership opportunities, cultural preservation and healthcare."
100% thats the exact type of thing needed, actually looks like a good positive program aimed at dealing with real problems and focused on the right areas.
oxrox wrote:Where did Jacinta Price mention anything about pulling your socks up etc etc? I think they all are just saying what is being put forward won't solve the problem. I for one am going to listen to these people as well as the other side put forward. We are possibly going to referendum.
Mundine and Dillon put forward their broad views and Price put up a personal perspective view. These people need to be heard as well as people with opposing views to them. Indigenous views are the ones I will be listening to and they are.
+1
Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x
The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.
Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.
Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.
The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.
Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??
Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28
References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28