Solar Power systems

Good call udo, have been thinking of putting in a system and would appreciate any info also.

I understand CSIRO, you know the agency that is about to have its budget reduced again by government, has already had laboratory results on polymer solar panels. They are still a long way off but it spells the death of coal. Why? Anything that can be painted will be a potential solar panel e.g. your entire house, your car, large buildings, roads?

Liquid fluoride thorium power is the way forward.
Many advantages over uranium nuclear power: no chance of meltdown, non-radioactive waste, higher natural abundance of thorium fuel, operates at low pressures
Disadvantage: by-product can't be used for nuclear missiles, as such, thorium reactors have never received enough funding

floyd wrote:

I understand CSIRO, you know the agency that is about to have its budget reduced again by government, has already had laboratory results on polymer solar panels. They are still a long way off but it spells the death of coal. Why? Anything that can be painted will be a potential solar panel e.g. your entire house, your car, large buildings, roads?

Floyd are you saying they are designing a polymer paint with solar capabilities...?

Udo, yeah I hear ya about if you need a 1.5kw, get a 3kw system, it makes sense in the long run.You talk about the middle man...? Isn't he the credited solar electrician any way, even if you buy it off say the Rainbow company..? Are you saying the credited solar electrician would charge a cheaper rate, like a perk job.! Will get on Utube later and look up the info above. Cheers.

Thanks again Southey, awesome.

Yeah I should have apologised for side tracking the Climate Change, but I'm not as well behaved and polite as you Southey ;)

Yep, I'm no scientist but I will speak to the one I know & post more info. I guess my point is buy the most cost effective rig now in the knowledge that technology will overtake it very quickly. My only regret in buying our solar panels is not doing bigger. Go as big as your roof will allow. Not sure about these deals with larger inverters to panels fitted; I understood the capabilities of both inverter and panels should be closely matched.

udo ,
I doubt you'll get wholesale prices online . But not to say some people know people ....
The highest infrastructure cost and longest expected life span is the panels . They are a minimum 20 year investment . So you should spend as much as possible on these . Personally I wouldn't buy anything under $1 a watt . That almost rules out most Chinese panels . I'm not a solar panel snob, I just know that you pay for what you get . That's not to s ay that Chinese panels are bad , it's just that R&D and QA come at cost.
Your right on the sizing front each different number In an array of panels , will match to different brands and sizing of inverters . ( V8's need transmissions to match) .
It's fine to say go cheap panels , but at the end of the day the install of panels is by far your most costly labour component . I wouldn't rely to heavily on pie in the sky breakthroughs in years to come . Polymer sounds good in theory , but it's spoken about for 10 years and at the end of the day safety and unease of connection makes it a good idea and not much else ( YET ) .
Uplift mentioned BP in the other thread , Kyocera would have to be the longest continual commercial operation in panel manufacture and their quality shows . Some of their Panels are still operating at over
80 % output after 40 years installed . QCells are one of the better high volume " new guys " .
Obviously SMA , Fronius and Kaco are big inverter companies with solid reps. But even saying that generally inverters won't last more than say 15 years especially if you work them hard ( idealically you should be flogging them , the harder they work the more output. Often I'll oversize panels to inverter , that way you may lose a little in perfect irradiation days , but low days far outnumber perfect days .
( perfect days being breezy , cool blue sky , all day ).
There's a company based in NZ ( Enasolar ) that make great quality inverters , which makes you feel better in that not everything needs to be shipped from the other side of the world , for the ultra carbon conscious . Off grid :- Australian company ( Selectronic ) is the ducks guts inverter / charger . Again something made 50 -500 kms from home keeps the hippy's Hard. :)) ! Schneider are also making some good gear on that front .
Hybrid is early days , I'm going ( Nedap ) as it's simple and cost effective , Schneider also do these , and you can use Selectronic also , however they are Rolls Royce built and as such are probably better suited to places with a lot of grid power issues .
Batteries are a whole different convo , and the combo of all these things let alone unique site variances make this a science not a hobby . Like what sheepy hints at we are reinventing the wheel to try and save ourselves . Engineers speak of KISS ( keep it simple stupid ) . Lucky for me I like technical , which is probably sending most of you guys to sleep ...
Again these aren't the only options , and that's the point every installation has variables that would make different combinations viable . And that's where having a good installer & designer makes the difference between slapping something on the roof as fast and cheap as possible or actually getting the most for your hard earned !

Tell us more about oversizing panels to inverter southey. Is that an industry wide thing or just your approach. Is there a formula that can be used on maximising the panels to flog the inverter?

Don't forget the wind.

http://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/2345334/dutch-wind-turbines-to-powe...

A mix of solar and wind can mean no back up generator. The Dutch are really experienced. I've seen some awesome yachts, which are really like a small house, run exclusively on wind/solar.

Its the batteries that are the weak link. And the toxic pollution kings/catch 22. The big money spinners.

Still big money to match the grid. Just fire up the angle grinder and............................._________________

'Wind turbines for solar backup ....are they legal in residential areas ?'

Of course they are, look.

http://www.portlincolntimes.com.au/story/1535090/phone-tower-anger/

http://www.portlincolntimes.com.au/story/2307683/residents-ask-again-for...

Just slap the fucker up. Do your bit. Disguise it as a wind vane. Sir Camelot's new suburb, Camelot, went green a few years back, and he's got one just over the back fence.

Great info, thanks southey. There is so much info out there that defining the better brands in both panels and inverters is difficult. Everyone claims to have the best and the reviews can be contradictory and confusing. Appreciate your input and views.

Cheers Southy, Floyd, Udo, Uplift and all other contributors. Threads like this are the ducks nuts. Sharing valuable technological info and just as important , sharing opinions on what works and what doesn't .
Cheers again Stu, Ben et al for the Forum.

Floyd . It depends where the install is . Somewhere coastal from Coffs right down round to perhaps Adelaide then you could take the oversizing to the maximum allowed by the Clean Energy Council .
That is 75 % Inverter capacity to Panel Peak power , personally I would recommend for coastal VIC .
( Beware though , Voltage limits must not be exceeded and some inverters won't warranty beyond a certain limit of wattage )There are many calcs' that have to be done to make sure when looking at various matching / combinations of different panels to Inverters .
Oversizing keeps the PV output voltages up around the most efficient location for each different inverter . Inverter companies have Voltage ranges they operate within , but some give optimal/ nominally specific indication {" sweet spot " if you may} where they work most efficiently .
(Similar to cars , its like comparing the RPM's at highest Torque output for different motor / trans combinations .... )
Anyway , the longer you can have the inverter in this spot during the day , then the better . Consideration needs to be given to inverter location and ventilation ( ie not on a North or west wall ) ,
They run warm when working hard , and if they get extra direct sun exposure especially when mounted onto bricks exposed to the sun for long times in a day, then they can disconnect to cool down . If the ambient itself is warm , then the panels input will be lower so that won't matter as much .
I'm waffling on .

A lot of advertised deals go the other way ( which to an outsider makes sense ) in that they have bigger inverters to panel capacity , but AC output to DC input is roughly around 8o% and that is in optimal conditions . Then for the regions I'm talking about , a lot of the year is not optimal conditions so we are foregoing a little energy in the peaks to bump up the lesser days .

Generally speaking , Big solar companies have set combinations ( and they may have a number of options ) but generally speaking they stick to specific setups . Whether that optimally suits your location is the question that needs to be asked .

Thanks southey, I'll be back with the specifics of my system. I've wondered whether I could add a few more panels as they are proving so economically productive (I'm getting cheques from the power company). To avoid that heat issue with the inverter the installer suggested it be located in my garage away from the hot western afternoon sun (where my power board is located).

Cool .
Tell us your specifics , include region , orientation and pitch .
You said your on a $0.66 FIT . You can't add to your installation without running the risk of losing the FIT and even your initial rebate / price reduction if the installer claimed it . The distributor is the one that might cotton on to it , especially if your on a smart meter . So even if Abbott slam dunks the CEC , you could atleast lose that $0.66 or worse still have to pay back the $5,000 -$ 6,000 of rebate depending on when it was installed and which REC multiplier was used . Probably not worth the worry .
Make sure you get good ventilation in the garage on hot days .
Plenty of other options . But it sounds like your already killing it . ;-)
I was impressed with your avg 5kwh a day you mentioned in the other thread . Is that Net consumption after export or are you talking about pre solar install . And if pre- install how many occupants in the house and rough size ?
I'm struggling to get under 10 kwh's avg a day , although the missus and two kids are home most days .
I'm also yet to update my ducted aircon . to an inverter compressor , its going to be a bitch , because the indoor unit and Refrig. pipes need to be replaced ..... :( [ anyone know a good plasterer ] .

Great Info, interesting about various costs with different solar, we have adds on TV at the mo and a whole set up of 1.5 system is around $1900. I not sure if these cheaper products are the go, like you have said Southey, I've always been an advocate to pay for what you get. I know some people who bought cheap deals awhile back and are for ever have problems with, have techs continuously returning to do maintenance, ie more expense to the house holder.
Was looking up the FIT with Power Direct in SE QLD and are paying $0.14 which is including the government $0.08 FIT, Geez Floyd you must of got in early, like you my brother in law gets cheques in the mail with his 24 panels, but his set up cost a fair bit.
Looked up Enasolar inverters, a 2.0 kW alone was up around $2,000....? Just the inverter.
I filled out "The solar panel configurator' for the Inverter details, in the Enasolar site, pretty interesting, similar to working out your kW per day on the Rainbow company what Udo put me on....? Holy heck so many companies, solar panels to choose from, then all the specifications with Voc, Vmp, Imp (Game of Thrones), Vmpp, Pmpp.
An Enasolar inverter 1.5 kW can run up to 16 panels per string so thats 32 panels on a 1.5kW system..?, with a "3S Swiss sustainable system A" which is just a solar company..? A little combobulating for this old boy Southey...:)

First, I know absolutely squat about solar power but after this thread am taking a very keen interest in it. A future buiness plan of mine I hope will use solar as part of my buisness mix.

Udo san, solar appears to be in it's infancy here. Having said that, ads on tv are really pushing 'smart houses' which are computer controlled utilising a mix of solar and off the grid. Most of our electricity is nuclear anyway and up until now was very cheap compared to Oz. In summer, my place of business is pretty energy hungry and my bill runs to about 40,000 yen pm ($400AUD) which isn't that bad considering I'm running two big industrial size aircons and six banks of fluro lights in addition to refrigeration and electronic equipment. The thing that shits me is $150 of that is tied up in 'line rental' before I even flick a switch and there's no way around it because of the monopoly that TEPCO enjoy. So my actual consumption is quite reasonable. You know that company though, the ones responsible for the nuclear disaster just up the road. I fucking hate TEPCO.

However, solar panels are popping up on rooves (roofs?) everywhere here and more imporatantly, large solar farms. In the last year or so, 4 have popped up withing 15 minutes drive of me. They take up a couple of hectares and are just rows and rows of huge solar panels. I have no idea how much power they would generate but it would be substantial at a guess.

My American mate was whining about the new one going up yesterday, 'expensive, inefficient energy' he said. I said my bro doesn't seem to mind, he got in early and now gets his cheques from the government. My mate countered by saying that for 'private use solar is ok maybe but for industrial?'.

I don't know much about it but after my power bills going up by 20% this year alone, I'm all for it. I think it's good to see otherwise vacant, empty shitty land generating clean power.

Southy, maybe you have an insight into the pros and cons of these solar farms, especially on an industrial scale. I should mention, one big one is feeding into a hospital and another couple are situated close to factories.

I have to drive past one this arvo so I'll rty and get a pic.

We don't get that much snow here, probably a couple of weeks to a month max. But at the moment we're at the beginning of our rainy season and we get really thick pea-soup foggy days. The ocean temp is still cold (in the low teens) but the air temp is in the mid twenties, combine that with light winds and we get all day thick fog. Can't imagine too much sunlight getting through today.

Who make the best solar panels...?
I've been told a company in Germany make them more suited to Northern hemisphere conditions where there is not copious amounts of sun....? Haven't found them yet, maybe these sorts of panels could help you out Zen san, being thick pea-soup thru certain times of the year, as well as my self as around the winter solstice, we don't get much sun due to the big gums around...?
Southey how do you know so much about these contraptions..? physics/science, ENSO :) Great source of info, looking up Nepdap now.

I thought i'd try snap off a couple of pics of a very small solar farm nearby. Just went for a quick surf and took a small detour to try and get a pic. Sorry but I couldn't get above the place to get a better prespective. This is a small solar farm and would barely take up an acre or so. You can see they're still constructing the other half. I probably won't be able to get a shot of the big solar farm as I'll be driving past after sunset. If I remember I'll get one in the future.

Sorry about the quality, as you can see the thick fog I was talking about today, so not much sun around. This little solar set up is right next to some rice fields.

Also, just as I got home the barn swallows just outside my front door have literally just hatched. Mum and dad come back every year and make their nest on my outside light. They make a hell of a mess but I don't mind. It's kinda cool cause at night when we come home from work they're both there roosting away, trying not to be seen, cause they're almost at eye level with us and we pretend not to see them so we don't disturb them.

Welly ,
The Enasolars ' are cheaper than that wholesale . They have internal isolators which save money installing extra external ones . Those internal isolators are Kraus & Naimer brand ( which are ducks guts Austrian company ) , many electronic parts are manufactured here , the heat sink sits at the front of them which is better when your driving em hard . Also they are a lot easier to disc. And send away if you have an issue .

Also your forgetting that all inverters are rated to a certain wattage ( ie: 1.5kw = 1500watts [wattage] , the most you can legally ( in aust and still redeem the rebate ) put onto good units like that one is 2 kW of panels . ( ie 8x 250 w panels ) and depending on which panel that could be less due differing voltage outputs from different panels in full sun and at low temperatures . [ think a thick fog / super cold morning and then the fog disappears in a hurry ( burnt up ) around noon . Bang full sun onto cold panels = too high voltage . [ there are calculations for this , and hence why I say this isn't hobby stuff. ] . You need to know a few things . There are ad's on swellnet for solar panels , you see they include ( savings ) this is pretty much showing the component that the guberment gives back to the installer as a rebate . ( ie most 1.5 kW systems will receive roughly a $900 rebate , and you can see what else is redeemed for larger systems , fair chance this will disappear soon with the liberals .
Zen ,
Those panels look like amorphous or HIT or CiG ... They work better in cloud cover , but that entire array would struggle to run anything hefty during " fog days " . Hence why Oz is a gold mine for any solar PV & HWS . Considering how much the Germans and Sth Koreans have invested , they must look at us and be extremely jealous .

udo , Why is it so ? ;-)

Heres a place to import some a lot of them are minimum 5 sets etc.
The more you buy the cheaper they get basically.
http://www.alibaba.com/premium/solar_panel.html?uptime=20131118&ptsid=10...

southey, the specs on my system are:

orientation NNW
roof (tin) pitch 20 degrees
12x185 kW panels = 2.22 kW
SMA SB2500 inverter
Average daily power used for last 3 years = 5.38 kWh (excluding any power generated)
Average daily power generated and sold back for last 3 years = 7.70 kWh
Electricity only used for lighting, oven and electrical appliances. All lights and appliances rated highly for energy efficiency
Gas (5 star rated) for hot water and cook tops.
Wood box (again rated very highly for efficiency) for heating (I grow approximately 1/2 my own fire wood and that may increase in the future). We wear heavy wool jumpers in winter and only light the fire in the late afternoon or evening).
2 person household

Floyd, do you play charades by candlelight at night? That's very low energy usage. We have a 2.4kW system (albeit orientation is E/NE) with solar hot water and a household of 4 typically with one fluro on at night (and TV) and we use more power than we produce from the solar panels unfortunately. 52c feed in tariff makes our electricity bill cost neutral however!!! :)

Floyd ,
You have me perplexed .
You are either in Mildura receiving near 6 PSH ( Peak Sun Hours ) a day on average .
Your maths are out , or English in the description of generated as against exported .
Most places in Vic with around 2 kW 's of PV. ( Coastal anyway ) will generate 7.5 kWh per day average throughout the year . And your saying you export that much ?!?
Are you sure your not getting it mixed up , and you are importing 5 kwh's a day over and above what you
are generating ( so importing off the grid ) , generating 7.7 kwh's a day . So then what's your export avg . ( Average cheque per quarter or year average ?!?
You need to " net " it , or tell me you live in aptly named " Sunraysia " district !
PS , do you know the panel brand and most importantly mono or poly - crystalline ( black or blue , for ease of description ) .... ?!
PPS . Are they directly mounted to the pitched roof or tilted further. . Also distance from Coast helps , or for anonimities sake average ambient . .
Cheers .
[ better still , let me guess . You are averaging around $120 cheque per quarter . Rank guess ].... Also are you both home most of the day [ when not surfing :) } .

southey, thanks for querying my figures. Here I have been boasting an average solar generation/contribution of 7.7 kWH and in revisiting my spreadsheet to answer your questions I discover an error in my formula! Its 6.20 kWh excess generation (solar contribution). So over the last 958 days I have used 5,156 kWhs (daily average 5.38) and made a solar contribution of 5,943 kWh (daily average 6.20). Its that solar contribution figure on which I've been paid the 0.66 cents per kWh either as a credit off my power bills or as cheques that have totalled $1,421.48 to date. Note: I haven't paid a power bill since the system went live in September 2011. I live 5 kms from the coast and the panels sit on a frame sitting off the tinned roof but the frame follows the 20 degree pitch of the roof. I'm on the top of a hill and for most of the day all year round sun is hitting the panels from early morning to late afternoon and much later in summer (after 8pm).

Do you have a smart meter yet ?!? Now I think of it where are you reading your figures from to do your calcs . . Your bill , your meter , the inverter display . Or do you have online SMA monitor ?!
Yeah I was close ... 33 mths , 11 quarterly payments averaging $129 . ;-)
PS why did I think you were in Vic ... I don't know anywhere coastal apart from the riviera that gets close to 5.5 PSH's a day average throughout the year .... I'm going to get on the BOM site and look . Can you confirm Vic ?

It's not as simple as you make out . You average export is paid at 0.66 , there would be import on peak near 0.30 , daytime near 0.20 , off peak 0.13- 0.16 . Your net export is monetary not so consumption . I might have more tips for you to earn ....
As for extra panels , I need the brand and model .

Yes, from before the panels went operational so the old meter went backwards for about 4 weeks .... sweet. Figures taken from statement. Vic. What do you think about the NNW orientation and hill top location in helping maximising solar contribution?

What's your off peak , and peak rates ?

They change and did increase above CPI this year but currently 35.62/15.58

And near a dollar a day network charge ?! Does your peak rate go from 7am -11 pm ?!
Sorry , yeah hill top might work better NNE . But depends on ya local weather patterns . Ie Central Melbourne seems to typically see fronts come through late arvo . Far western Vic mid morning .... And these patterns tend shift a little every 20 or so years .
PS . Check your generation ( total ) on the display of the inverter .
I realise you are " neutral " in co2 terms . It's just that I'm trying to work out how well you " solar " is performing , and secondly checking to see how I could improve you " net outcome moneytarily by looking at your solar consumption and grid consumption total .

Service charge since going solar = $687.88 (average 0.71 cents per day) plus GST. Yes, peak rate times are as you say. Total from inverter = 8,526 kWh (includes period before smart meter was installed). The inverter total highlights the fact I haven't been able to easily reconcile inverter readings with statements from power company (which I use for tracking purposes). Do you know how that can be done? I would have thought it should be possible.

Your daily average household power consumption ...( that's combined solar and grid fed ) is :

Inverter generation , less export of meter , then plus import from grid .

Then to correct lack of smart meter period out of the equation .
8526 divided by (958 +30?) = 8.629kwh avg per day generation .

Therefor 30* 8.629 = 259 kWh ........ 8526 - 259 = 8267 kWh total generation within same time period as smart meter readings . Ie 958 days .... For better comparisons you should really do all this in and around even year spans , like 12 months , 24,36 etc . This cuts out seasonal bias . Over longer periods less so .!

So ,
We have total solar generation = 8267 substract export ( contribution to grid )= 5943
[ 8267 - 5943 = 2324 ] solar self consumption = 2324

Solar self consumption = 2324 plus import ( consumption from grid ) = 5156
[ 2324 + 5156 ] = 7480 kwh's . Total household power consumption .

7480 divide by 958 = 7.80 kwh's per day avg total household consumption .

Still impressive .... And impressive enough to not let you feel bad that you are better off financially trying to run all unnecessary electrical items ( ie : dishwasher [ if u have one ;) ] , washing machine , and to really make some good coin a slow cooker !!!! For all meals ) between 11pm and 7 am .
Or if you wanna save the world and reduce YOUR carbon footprint run as much as possible ( esp. On sunny days ) , between 10am and 2pm ....

But that's not gonna help you wallet .

Maybe we'll make you feel guilty when it's completely paid you back ...

Gee that service charge is mint. One deal here tried to charge me , over a dollar a day .
Now back around 90 cents .
So , 7.80 kwh's per day avg ( which is pretty good for Coastal Vic ) if you go to the BOM climate archive you can get your nearest weather stations average daily solar data in PSH's ) with that figure I can compare your solar systems efficiency . I'll link to the BOM page later .!

Anyway , reasonably impressed . My household is running at around 11 kwhs a day , but that's 2 adults and 2 toddlers . And 90 % of the time , someone's home .! I'll be happy if I get under 10 .

Cheers

Gold Southey Gold, love the info.

A week to go and will take photos of my roof at different times thru the winter solstice.
I know it will disappoint you as does me ...:(
But summer a different realm....?
Will send plans that I have drawn up as well..
Cheers

You'll only need two photos Welly one at 10 and one at 2 . Doesn't have to be solstice exactly . Just a full sunny day near it .
I'm sure I don't need to forecast the day also ?! ;-)

floyd ,

example of typical insolation data available at BOM .

remember to click back to climate data services up the top ,
then select solar exposure ( insolation ) instead of rainfall .
select your location then nearest station .
press get data .
( perhaps then change it from Megajoules/m2 to kwh/m2
and select your years seperately and mean them .

link > " http://www.bom.gov.au/jsp/ncc/cdio/weatherData/av?p_nccObsCode=193&p_dis... " .

southey wrote:

You'll only need two photos Welly one at 10 and one at 2 . Doesn't have to be solstice exactly . Just a full sunny day near it .
I'm sure I don't need to forecast the day also ?! ;-)

Cheers will do :)

HAha you will not have to forecast it, but let's see , I Reckon full on sun and hopefully that will give you a good glimpse...?My angels are talking too me.....About someone that knows some great information ...:)

Southey, come in, Welly to Southey :) Couldn't take photos yesterday as to cloudy.
Here are some photos taken today, 3 photos are at 10 am, 4 photos at 1.30pm.
2 photos are plans that I drew for my roof extension 2 years ago, giving you a 2 dimensional look.
I got confused with Stephen Hawking talking about dimensions when it went past 3 :)
Cheers champ, looking forward to your knowledgeable input.

East facing roof 10am.

North roof looking down 10am.

East & West 10am.

North Elevation :)

East & West Elevation

East roof 1.30pm

North 1.30pm

East & West @ 1.30pm

North looking down @ 1.30pm

Again your input is much appreciated as it will ammo for these solar panel companies when I purchase them.
Cheers Southey
Classic winter SE QLD surf, dwarf size last few days :)