The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Im still waiting for you to answer my question about PNG.
Why does PNG have very similar problems to Indigenous Australian communities???
It can't be racism it cant be colonialism(not affected like Aust) so what is it?
Poverty?....why aren't the same problems seen elsewhere to same levels in similar countries over run by poverty?
Oh and as I've said I'm not suggesting at all that it has anything to do with skin colour, pigmentation, DNA or even race.
Ive answered a number of your questions but you won't (or should i say CANT) answer just one of mine.
hey @andym I see @info has asked you several times " Why does PNG have very similar problems to Indigenous Australian communities??? ...."
Just wondering whether our resident numbnuts has provided more than ill-informed opinion to back up his comparing PNG and AU like that? Links maybe?
stunet wrote:No-one has to post under their name; it's a personal decision whether you do or not.
Calling someone racist when you haven't bothered to understand their point of view says more about the accuser.
Complex issues require thorough explanations, especially to doubters.
Few pages back someone said something about whitefellas taking a backseat to a blackfella problem. Sounded hopeful but the last few pages make it look more hopeless.
Couldn't give a fuck what name someone posts under Stuart. Unless of course they accuse and disrespect a real person using their real name and make completely false and misleading comments about them to put them down.....without using their real name. On a public forum. On your forum. The one that Blowin used to try to spout untrue shit about me....urgh...that should have seen him immediately banned (again) under the rules that you have layed out.
If it's two anonymous' going at it.....who cares.
But you'll happily delete my comments whenever i ask why 3 margs cams...with names. Nice censorship there. I'm sure this one will get deleted too.
What is it with you and names?
I mean, how does anyone even know it's your real name anyway..?
Jesus...
I've got my money on that it is "bluediamond".
Didn't you throw the toys out of the cot and say you're out a few weeks ago?
GuySmiley wrote:hey @andym I see @info has asked you several times " Why does PNG have very similar problems to Indigenous Australian communities??? ...."
Just wondering whether our resident numbnuts has provided more than ill-informed opinion to back up his comparing PNG and AU like that? Links maybe?
It seems you have been living under a rock but most people know that PNG has extremely high levels of domestic violence especially towards women and children, which is also one of the main problems seen in indigenous community's in particular remote communities .
In Australian indigenous communities, people often explain these high rates of violence with catch phrases like colonisation, intergenerational trauma, even racism.
Obviously in PNG you cant do this, so what's the explanation of these high rates of violence in PNG????
Just imagine this for a minute.
That the English decided PNG was the better place to settle and not Australia and history unfolded in PNG in the same way it did Australia with the majority of the population being non Papuan.
Now of course if this happened everyone would be explaining the violence seen in PNG papuan communities as a result of colonisation, intergenerational trauma, racism.
Which would obviously be incorrect.
And if Australia had only seen colonisation in a similar way to what PNG has, who's to say things would be any different in regards to levels of violence in indigenous communities.
The reason why Andy wont tackle this question is because he cant explain the cause's of violence in PNG and would have to admit it's cultural based, which then becomes problematic because if its cultural based in PNG whats to say its not culture based in Australia.
GuySmiley wrote:hey @andym I see @info has asked you several times " Why does PNG have very similar problems to Indigenous Australian communities??? ...."
Just wondering whether our resident numbnuts has provided more than ill-informed opinion to back up his comparing PNG and AU like that? Links maybe?
Nothing.
Nothing factual about issues in remote communities, nothing comparing remote to town communities, and nothing at all about the supposed similarities between PNG and Australia.
Just a thin, watery blurt so as to assert that black people are bad.
Waiter, more milk if you please!
Still waiting Andy or Guy, do you want to tackle the question?
First thing I found.
“ weak enforcement of laws criminalizing corruption and violence against women and children continued to foster a culture of impunity and lawlessness. Although a resource-rich country, almost 40 percent of its population lives in poverty, which, together with poor health care, barriers to education, corruption, and economic mismanagement, stunts PNG’s progress.”
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2020/country-chapters/papua-new-guinea
AndyM wrote:GuySmiley wrote:hey @andym I see @info has asked you several times " Why does PNG have very similar problems to Indigenous Australian communities??? ...."
Just wondering whether our resident numbnuts has provided more than ill-informed opinion to back up his comparing PNG and AU like that? Links maybe?
Nothing.
Nothing factual about issues in remote communities, nothing comparing remote to town communities, and nothing at all about the supposed similarities between PNG and Australia.
Just a thin, watery blurt so as to assert that black people are bad.More milk please waiter!
I thought as much @andym, numbnuts probably hasn't been further west than the Newell and most certainly never to PNG, unfortunately for him I have and given his insipid attempt immediately above some darn good sport at his expense is about to be had... standby
@indo-dreaming "...because if its cultural based in PNG whats to say its not culture based in Australia." At a guess, Aboriginal people.
I can hear you ask so why isn’t it the same in other countries that have poverty.
Well you need to show me that it’s not the case because it’s your assertion.
AndyM wrote:First thing I found.
“ weak enforcement of laws criminalizing corruption and violence against women and children continued to foster a culture of impunity and lawlessness. Although a resource-rich country, almost 40 percent of its population lives in poverty, which, together with poor health care, barriers to education, corruption, and economic mismanagement, stunts PNG’s progress.”
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2020/country-chapters/papua-new-guinea
Oh please what tripe.
Countless countries have exactly the same issues including Indonesia but dont have he problems with violence seen in PNG.
Poverty doesn't cause people to be violent.
At the risk of stepping into a boot 'n' all shitfight, has anybody read any Thomas Sowell? I found his work very helpful in the area of race, culture and migration. I started with Black Rednecks and White Liberals, which was a real eye opener for me. Not so much a different point of view but an evidence based approach that is extremely well argued on a range of topics, several of which have been argued here. I'm getting through Race and Culture now. It's more detailed and a heavier read but also well worth the effort.
And no, I haven't read the whole thread. That would be like wanking with a cheese grater...slightly amusing but mostly painful!
palmymick wrote:At the risk of stepping into a boot 'n' all shitfight, has anybody read any Thomas Sowell? I found his work very helpful in the area of race, culture and migration. I started with Black Rednecks and White Liberals, which was a real eye opener for me. Not so much a different point of view but an evidence based approach that is extremely well argued on a range of topics, several of which have been argued here. I'm getting through Race and Culture now. It's more detailed and a heavier read but also well worth the effort.
Ive listened to many of his interviews and talks/thoughts on things, is been a little while so I cant remember exactly what he had to say other than what he said generally made a lot of sense and remember thinking he was a super smart wise guy.
stunet wrote:What is it with you and names?
I mean, how does anyone even know it's your real name anyway..?
Jesus...
Stu i'll pay you the respect you deserve and not get into a tit for tat on this issue. Happy to let it go. My point has been made. I really do hope one day i track blowin down. Fella can't hide forever like he does.
As for the comments i posted earlier....i did it precisely knowing it would be provocative to a very certain few. And viola! Like magic, they appeared...being real strong blokes!!
And as for the same crew (the three stooges i believe they're also known as?)....firstly, i'm happy these crew despise me on here. I'd be very dissappointed with my life if people like this liked and agreed with me.
Secondly, well, i do live over here in WA, i do travel extensively, i have lived in alot of remote towns over here, and i've met alot of different graziers and land owners.. the 'respected' townsfolk you might say. I think it's important that those sheltered on the East Coast from the reality of Black and White Australia should have some insight into that.
Plenty more to add to the topic but no more picking on Swellnets pet.
indo-dreaming wrote:Im still waiting for you to answer my question about PNG.
Why does PNG have very similar problems to Indigenous Australian communities???
It can't be racism it cant be colonialism(not affected like Aust) so what is it?
Poverty?....why aren't the same problems seen elsewhere to same levels in similar countries over run by poverty?
Oh and as I've said I'm not suggesting at all that it has anything to do with skin colour, pigmentation, DNA or even race.
Ive answered a number of your questions but you won't (or should i say CANT) answer just one of mine.
Just jumping in here. Contrary to your opinions household financial stress is known to be one of the strongest factors contributing to domestic violence. So is poverty a driver of domestic violence. Most definitely yes. Regardless of where your from or what colour your skin may be
Just to clarify Indo. Do you think, given your previous posts elude that, aboriginal men and PNG men have a culture that is more predisposed to physical and sexual violence toward women.
And that any reference to 200+ year’s of marginalisation is, and I’m quoting you, lazy, cliche and or irrelevant.
Yes or no will suffice.
Then I might have another one for you.
I think Eugenics Dreaming’s views have been made very clear.
Before I deal with @info-numbnuts later on his PNG/AU theorising does anybody else see the parallels in what he is proposing and the way Bush treated the black neighbourhoods and residents of New Orleans during and after Hurricane Katrina? Get dem out of the burbs and solve dat problem?
“ I really do hope one day i track blowin down. Fella can't hide forever like he does”
All well and good to make these comments in the heat of the moment when you’re all fired up, but honestly what would you actually do?
Say you’re having a chat to a bloke in a beach car park somewhere and it came to be that you were chatting to blowin… what next? Punch him? Over stuff said on an Internet forum??
haha. Come on now Goofy. Tea and biscuits and a leisurely mal ride at his favourite beachie. Just a couple of 'blokes' having a good laugh. Alllll gooooood.
You’d hate it if blowin was a real goer :-0
Not gonna add any more fuel to this one Goofy. Thanks for trying though ;-)
Back to the topic...
A good read re. Papua and it's colonial ties with Australia.
Might interest a few.
https://theconversation.com/png-marks-40-years-of-independence-still-fee...
Another good one regarding how colonialism and domestic abuse against women around the world are tied in together...
https://theconversation.com/how-colonialism-is-a-major-cause-of-domestic...
Ha, topic was forgotten about on these pages long ago. At least you’re trying but..
True that!! Good on ya Goofy. Hope you're surviving the cold over there. My granny said it's bloody freezing!!
Paul McD wrote:A good read re. Papua and it's colonial ties with Australia.
Might interest a few.
https://theconversation.com/png-marks-40-years-of-independence-still-fee...
Another good one regarding how colonialism and domestic abuse against women around the world are tied in together...
https://theconversation.com/how-colonialism-is-a-major-cause-of-domestic...
Hey man, don’t confuse Indo’s opinions and hypothesis with the presentation of facts.
And for the record, I did answer the PNG question.
Can’t wait for what GS has in store
There’s something like 20 women (google it mate) already killed by partners this year in Australia. Most perpetrators are not from PNG or isolated aboriginal communities. Seems us whities have a cultural problem also Indo.
seeds wrote:There’s something like 20 women (google it mate) already killed by partners this year in Australia. Most perpetrators are not from PNG or isolated aboriginal communities. Seems us whities have a cultural problem also Indo.
Yes all society's around the world have these issues but what do you think the levels are in Indgenious communities compared to non indigenous?(2023 non indigenous includes anyone else not just whites)
Double? triple? Ten times the rate?
Go google it mate and get back to me.
indo-dreaming wrote:seeds wrote:There’s something like 20 women (google it mate) already killed by partners this year in Australia. Most perpetrators are not from PNG or isolated aboriginal communities. Seems us whities have a cultural problem also Indo.
Yes all society's around the world have these issues but what do you think the levels are in Indgenious communities compared to non indigenous?(2023 non indigenous includes anyone else not just whites)
Double? triple? Ten times the rate?
Go google it mate and get back to me.
Are you suggesting that death from domestic violence is somehow double to ten times the rate in indigenous communities than in non indigenous communities in Australia with no supporting evidence.
Seems the Indo dreaming house has a bit of a Racism problem. You’ve already exposed that your wife when with other Indonesians likes to engage in a bit of racial vilification. And you quite freely engage in a bit publicly within this small surfing community.
You really can’t be taken too seriously.
Long-term readers of these forums would know we (Swellnet) have all been here before.
Andrew Bolt's 18c court case (2011), Adam Goodes calling out racism (2013), the Urulu Statemnet of the Heart (2017) and this topic of Aboriginals living on country first visited by PM Tony Abbott (2015) and periodically discussed here since.
The commonalities of all these debates are the right wing media and their commentate and here in SN forums Indo-Dreaming (ID) stridently holding the ideological line not once backing down notwithstanding thousands of words / perhaps 100s of comments mostly written in good faith highlighting that his simplistic approach to complex social issues is not helpful and potentially harmful. Along the way some of these debates have become heated causing several people to be either banned from the forums or to walk away in disgust because of utter frustration at ID's intransigent positioning.
ID's latest theorising links the living standards of Aboriginal mobs living on country and domestic violence to similar issues with PNG communities. Of course these aren't his original ideas at all they belong to 2-3 disaffected Aboriginals with political leanings to the right who represent no-one other then themselves because their mobs have disowned them.
ID's view is if only these mobs would leave their country life would be better. I've discussed this above so I'm not repeating myself again but 200 years of dispossession tells these mobs to stay put.
ID has linked this issue to violence against women and children in PNG but when asked for real evidence has none. NONE.
There is no doubt PNG can be a violent place to live and even visit. Westerners need to be careful where they go and how they act. A culturally strong country where land is still held tightly by traditional owners. As a tourist this was all explained, the notion of retribution remains despite western laws and courts for all who live there. ID's theory is nonsense - you do wrong either cultural or western law will catch up with you.
Thinking about this I last night I remembered many of the wonderfully kindhearted people I've worked with and known in the past (RIP) and how generous and humble they were in the face of a lifetime of bigotry. In particular I remembered their sense of humour and laughter and how positive they were for the future.
I don't intend to waste more time here on IDs nonsense and if the SNs archives are any guide none of us should. The future ..........
Epic comment Guysmiley. Put into words what i struggle to. Thanks.
soggydog wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:seeds wrote:There’s something like 20 women (google it mate) already killed by partners this year in Australia. Most perpetrators are not from PNG or isolated aboriginal communities. Seems us whities have a cultural problem also Indo.
Yes all society's around the world have these issues but what do you think the levels are in Indgenious communities compared to non indigenous?(2023 non indigenous includes anyone else not just whites)
Double? triple? Ten times the rate?
Go google it mate and get back to me.
Are you suggesting that death from domestic violence is somehow double to ten times the rate in indigenous communities than in non indigenous communities in Australia with no supporting evidence.
Seems the Indo dreaming house has a bit of a Racism problem. You’ve already exposed that your wife when with other Indonesians likes to engage in a bit of racial vilification. And you quite freely engage in a bit publicly within this small surfing community.
You really can’t be taken too seriously.
"In Australia, Aboriginal women are 17 times more likely to die from homicide compared to non-Indigenous women
."https://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/nitv-news/article/2020/02/05/why-isnt-nation...
"Mortality
Between 2000 and 2004, there were 150 deaths due to assault among Indigenous Australians in the four jurisdictions.
Indigenous females and males were nearly ten and nine times more likely to die due to assault as non-Indigenous females and males, respectively.
The death rate was highest among people aged 35–44 years."
https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/indigenous-australians/family-violence-i...
In regard to domestic violence:
"FactCheck Q&A: are Indigenous women 34-80 times more likely than average to experience violence?"
"Aboriginal women here are 37 times more likely to be hospitalised than non-Aboriginal women for non-fatal family violence-related assaults. In the Northern Territory the rate of hospitalisation is up to 86 times higher for Aboriginal women. In central Australia, this figure is 95 times more likely for Aboriginal women"
"Verdict
The available evidence on domestic and family violence suggest Marcia Langton is broadly correct. There is evidence for the higher end of the claim, including anecdotal evidence and media reports."
https://theconversation.com/factcheck-qanda-are-indigenous-women-34-80-t...
Might reply latter to you Guy, but many of the things ive said are not just supported by those three, there has even been books written about the subject of the cultural roots of indigenous violence, many of the things i believe in (not all) are also things Peter Sutton believes in like policy based on need not race, i recall reading him even talking about the high levels of violence pre colonisation. (of which there is much evidence)
17 x
a staggering statistic
well they did ask for it...
Nationally Domestic violence affects 1 in 3 non indigenous women and 1 in 2 indigenous women. That’s nation wide not specific states or communities.
I call bullshit on those statistics.
You really expect me to believe that 33% of all Australian women are getting beat up by their partners ? Ridiculous.
Dammit, have to agree with DSDS.
But domestic violence is much more widespread than is easily quantified.
But these statistics defy rational analysis. I suspect I know why these figures are so high, and it’s not because they are credible.
I’ve asked friends of mine in recent years. - “have you ever hit a woman, ever, in any circumstances, or do you know any man who you reasonably suspect of hitting a woman.” Not one of them has.
Now I recognise that my circumstances and friends are very different to other parts of Australia and even other parts of Sydney or Central Coast. But 1 in 3, and 1 in 2 for indigenous women?
Treat those stats with some scepticism.
maybe you guys just need to update your understandings of 'domestic violence' to contemporary 'perspectives'...
self serving, broad sweeping (with a one way brush), all encompassing, agenda driving, contemporary perspectives...
yeh, bullshit basically
DudeSweetDudeSweet wrote:I call bullshit on those statistics.
You really expect me to believe that 33% of all Australian women are getting beat up by their partners ? Ridiculous.
2004 survey,, pretty much first thing to come up under a google search I would not make shit up like that. Remember that domestic violence doesn’t always have to be physical by definition.
The main part of the discussion was what factors drive these outcomes for aboriginal women.
Indo has presented this phenomenon as part of aboriginal culture and it would appear to dismiss other factors associated with colonisation and marginalisation of communities. Stronger cultural ties due to isolated environments seems to be one of his arguments that exacerbates the problem.
The stats are pretty confronting
That was my point to Indo. It’s more prevalent in indigenous communities but it is also bad in ours. Therefore it can’t be because of their culture because it exists in our culture. And this bollocks argument that it because of patriarchal society. Our society has been patriarchal for eons and was up until a few decades ago. Still is in many ways.
I just read the link Indo provided.
The scummy little racist failed to highlight one particular paragraph that was most important to this conversation. It was just before the “Verdict”
I’m quoting from the article Indo linked above.
“Many accept that the impact of colonisation, ongoing trauma from displacement of indigenous people from their traditional lands and Kinship Groups. The removal of children from families and ongoing negative relationships between indigenous people and the criminal justice system have all contributed to heightened levels of violence.
For others the low expectations that mainstream society has for indigenous Australians, the high rates of unemployment and poverty and substance misuse are more likely explanations.”
So as we can see, there are many factors that Indo seems to have dismissed even when they are part of articles that he presents as supporting evidence. No where does it state that these rates of violence are associated with indigenous culture in Australia
“
Meanwhile, ol' Eugenics Dreaming wants to attribute Indigenous issues purely to their culture.
Charming.
soggydog wrote:I just read the link Indo provided.
The scummy little racist failed to highlight one particular paragraph that was most important to this conversation. It was just before the “Verdict”
I’m quoting from the article Indo linked above.
“Many accept that the impact of colonisation, ongoing trauma from displacement of indigenous people from their traditional lands and Kinship Groups. The removal of children from families and ongoing negative relationships between indigenous people and the criminal justice system have all contributed to heightened levels of violence.
For others the low expectations that mainstream society has for indigenous Australians, the high rates of unemployment and poverty and substance misuse are more likely explanations.”So as we can see, there are many factors that Indo seems to have dismissed even when they are part of articles that he presents as supporting evidence. No where does it state that these rates of violence are associated with indigenous culture in Australia
“
Obviously the links were to prove that there is high levels of domestic violence and deaths in indigenous women because Seeds was trying to paint non indigenous Australian domestic violence and death rates as high.(or similar to indigenous women rates)
And then this complete and utter tosser (you)
Said "Are you suggesting that death from domestic violence is somehow double to ten times the rate in indigenous communities than in non indigenous communities in Australia with no supporting evidence."
And went on calling me racist for even suggesting rates of violence or deaths were higher.
Which i then showed you with supporting links that yes, Indigenous women have a 34 to 95 times higher chance of hospitalisation and 9 to 17 times higher homicide rate than non indigenous women.
Any normally person would be eating some humble pie and even be apologising, but no the A grade absolute tosser you are is now trying to cling onto another non relevant aspect of the article. that had nothing to do with the point.
Centring settler colonialism in rural Australian
multicultures: race, place and local identities
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/1369183X.2020.1800447
Annnndddd....
Black African nurses battle racism in rural Australian workplaces, study finds
https://anmj.org.au/black-african-nurses-battle-racism-in-rural-australi...
Seems you don't have to be an Indigenous Australian. You just have to be black. Apologies for yesterdays comments not being accurate.
indo-dreaming wrote:soggydog wrote:I just read the link Indo provided.
The scummy little racist failed to highlight one particular paragraph that was most important to this conversation. It was just before the “Verdict”
I’m quoting from the article Indo linked above.
“Many accept that the impact of colonisation, ongoing trauma from displacement of indigenous people from their traditional lands and Kinship Groups. The removal of children from families and ongoing negative relationships between indigenous people and the criminal justice system have all contributed to heightened levels of violence.
For others the low expectations that mainstream society has for indigenous Australians, the high rates of unemployment and poverty and substance misuse are more likely explanations.”So as we can see, there are many factors that Indo seems to have dismissed even when they are part of articles that he presents as supporting evidence. No where does it state that these rates of violence are associated with indigenous culture in Australia
“
Obviously the links were to prove that there is high levels of domestic violence and deaths in indigenous women because Seeds was trying to paint non indigenous Australian domestic violence and death rates as high.(or similar to indigenous women rates)
And then this complete and utter tosser (you)
Said "Are you suggesting that death from domestic violence is somehow double to ten times the rate in indigenous communities than in non indigenous communities in Australia with no supporting evidence."
And went on calling me racist for even suggesting rates of violence or deaths were higher.
Which i then showed you with supporting links that yes, Indigenous women have a 34 to 95 times higher chance of hospitalisation and 9 to 17 times higher homicide rate than non indigenous women.
Any normally person would be eating some humble pie and even be apologising, but no the A grade absolute tosser you are is now trying to cling onto another non relevant aspect of the article. that had nothing to do with the point.
You tied it all to aboriginal culture, dismissing the factors mentioned in the article you presented to support your statistics. I humoured you and read the article, only to find you omitted a very important paragraph relevant to the conversation we where having.
You where strongly presenting the argument that problems of domestic assault, violence all the way to peadophilia where constructs of indigenous culture. The counter argument was these factors where also symptomatic of colonisation and marginalisation. Which you strongly dismissed, even referring to the premise as cliche and lazy.
Again you are now back peddling, trying to cover your arse. But you are a pretty stupid shit cunt. And we see you.
Racism is a learnt behaviour, you’ve got two kids eh’?
soggydog wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:soggydog wrote:I just read the link Indo provided.
The scummy little racist failed to highlight one particular paragraph that was most important to this conversation. It was just before the “Verdict”
I’m quoting from the article Indo linked above.
“Many accept that the impact of colonisation, ongoing trauma from displacement of indigenous people from their traditional lands and Kinship Groups. The removal of children from families and ongoing negative relationships between indigenous people and the criminal justice system have all contributed to heightened levels of violence.
For others the low expectations that mainstream society has for indigenous Australians, the high rates of unemployment and poverty and substance misuse are more likely explanations.”So as we can see, there are many factors that Indo seems to have dismissed even when they are part of articles that he presents as supporting evidence. No where does it state that these rates of violence are associated with indigenous culture in Australia
“
Obviously the links were to prove that there is high levels of domestic violence and deaths in indigenous women because Seeds was trying to paint non indigenous Australian domestic violence and death rates as high.(or similar to indigenous women rates)
And then this complete and utter tosser (you)
Said "Are you suggesting that death from domestic violence is somehow double to ten times the rate in indigenous communities than in non indigenous communities in Australia with no supporting evidence."
And went on calling me racist for even suggesting rates of violence or deaths were higher.
Which i then showed you with supporting links that yes, Indigenous women have a 34 to 95 times higher chance of hospitalisation and 9 to 17 times higher homicide rate than non indigenous women.
Any normally person would be eating some humble pie and even be apologising, but no the A grade absolute tosser you are is now trying to cling onto another non relevant aspect of the article. that had nothing to do with the point.
You tied it all to aboriginal culture, dismissing the factors mentioned in the article you presented to support your statistics. I humoured you and read the article, only to find you omitted a very important paragraph relevant to the conversation we where having.
You where strongly presenting the argument that problems of domestic assault, violence all the way to peadophilia where constructs of indigenous culture. The counter argument was these factors where also symptomatic of colonisation and marginalisation. Which you strongly dismissed, even referring to the premise as cliche and lazy.Again you are now back peddling, trying to cover your arse. But you are a pretty stupid shit cunt. And we see you.
Racism is a learnt behaviour, you’ve got two kids eh’?
Sorry but nowhere have i suggested or mentioned peadophilia.
Anyway it's pretty clear that you dont like being proven completely wrong, so now clutching at straws.
If you didn't want to look like such an ignorant fool and be proven completely wrong, all you had to do first before commenting is spend 5 seconds googling first like i suggested.
I did, your statistics where on point, but like I said before, the conversation was about culture vs external factors such as colonisation and marginalisation.
The article you provided supported your position on statistics. But also supported my original argument on cause.
But it seems you just want to “win” the argument so you zig and zag now statistics are the argument not that aboriginal men have a culture predisposed to rape and violence. Which was your original premise. Remember PNG and the comparisons of violence and sexual assault being culture.
So call me a fool or whatever else, at least I’m not a blatant racist shit cunt….like you.
Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x
The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.
Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.
Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.
The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.
Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??
Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28
References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28