The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
adam12 wrote:Indo, your contention that indigenous problems in Australia exist because they are culturally inferior is wrong and offensive and it would benefit the readability of these forums greatly if you weren't pretending to be an expert on fucking everything.
Nobody said or suggested inferior and nobody is suggesting Asia's or Nigerian's are superior culturally either, it's more about understanding how cultural aspects can affect outcomes in both positive and negative ways.
Im not an expert on everything, but I do try to keep an open mind and think outside cliche boxes.
@soggydog
The last part of your comment is way over the top and off the mark, you seem to not be listening at all, and wanting to put words in my mouth, which is annoying
stunet wrote:@GS, I just deleted your last comment.
You can refute or ignore ID's posts, but base level abuse isn't on.
Fair enough Stu, but can I accept your intervention as a badge of honour in this instance?
Indo you’re talking about culture driving success but you haven’t for a second considered the effect of racist colonial culture and it’s long-term intergenerational negative effects on indigenous Australians.
You clearly don’t appreciate how this has entrenched itself.
Simply saying “change your culture” is total bullshit.
Your argument holds no water, you have now changed tact from similarities in the domestic indigenous populations of PNG and Australia and social outcomes associated with culture. Ignoring colonialism.
Then you have jumped to similarities in immigrant populations and outcomes based on new opportunities and competition. From indigenous populations that have been largely self governed.
You didn’t answer my question. What do you think your mates answer would be?
We all know these over opinionated people in the real world. They give everyone (else) the shits. They never shut up and are always right. You’re speaking your piece/reply and you can see they aren’t listening just thinking about their next self affirming verbal vomit.
Why debate with Indo? He is not able or willing to listen to different opinions.
Wishing all the indigenous crew peace and happiness.
I'm out and done kicking the can down the road. I look forward to learning and listening.
See you wherever I may.
Be who you want to.
Take care and stand tall.
I should have known better really.
seeds wrote:We all know these over opinionated people in the real world. They give everyone (else) the shits. They never shut up and are always right. You’re speaking your piece/reply and you can see they aren’t listening just thinking about their next self affirming verbal vomit.
Why debate with Indo? He is not able or willing to listen to different opinions.
Seeds. I’m sorry, he’s (ID) not able, flabbergasted as to how he cant see the basic root cause of all the issues we discuss relative to indigenous Australians, its not that hard, 4 or five lines of literature is all it takes, he must be wearing English/European blinkers, he certainly never takes a breath. I think his brain is going ten the dozen, the things he wants to say are manifesting themselves in his brain at a greater rate than he can punch the keyboard. Geez he must sleep well at night. ID i admire your passion but not your principles.
AndyM wrote:Indo you’re talking about culture driving success but you haven’t for a second considered the effect of racist colonial culture and it’s long-term intergenerational negative effects on indigenous Australians.
You clearly don’t appreciate how this has entrenched itself.
Simply saying “change your culture” is total bullshit.
Let's think about this logically.
If the effect was such a driver as you say it is, then why are the biggest problems in remote communities where indigenous culture is strongest, self governance higher than elsewhere and where outside influence is minimal both now and historically and where people are not exposed to racism or if they are, very low levels because there is few non indigenous people and im sure they would get sorted out if were racist.
While those indigenous people living side by side in cities and built up areas under this racist colonial system and culture you speak of and actually may experience racism at times have the least issues and in general the majority are no different to you and me in success.
It's pretty clear your thought's dont pass the pub test, it's the exact opposite outcome of what your theory suggest.
While on the flip side the current scenario we see supports the theory of culture being a driver.
BTW. Im not exactly saying “change your culture” but you have to be honest and acknowledge the cause of the problems, so you can deal with them, again in PNG they have no choice but to do this.
I will end my discussion right here. Ive read so many of Indos reams of dialogue on this topic over the last year and the only message i can take away from analysing it all is that he is racist towards Aboriginal people which truly disturbs me.
I wonder what it would be like if the shoe was on the other foot, i wonder, i wonder, i wonder.
soggydog wrote:Your argument holds no water, you have now changed tact from similarities in the domestic indigenous populations of PNG and Australia and social outcomes associated with culture. Ignoring colonialism.
Then you have jumped to similarities in immigrant populations and outcomes based on new opportunities and competition. From indigenous populations that have been largely self governed.You didn’t answer my question. What do you think your mates answer would be?
I havent changed any tact, my tact has been to show how culture can be either a positive or negative influence.
Sorry unless you answer or try to answer my questions I'm not going to answer your silly nonsense questions.
@AlfredWallace Nobody likes to be called racist, but honestly i dont give a toss what you think those that know me know im not racist, if you mistake my comments for racism then that's your issue not mine, my thoughts are not unique and most are thoughts I've gained from Indigenous people like Anthony Dillion, Jacinta Price, Warren Mundine.
@ Seeds "He is not able or willing to listen to different opinions." the irony of this comment.
Sprouting old worn out one word cliches of colonisation and racism to explain every indigenous issue is not even an opinion its just ignorance and lazy.
This notion that @info is proffering isn't his at all but that promoted by 2 or 3 disaffected individuals who aren't representative of the broader Aboriginal community nor its leadership. Like I have previously suggested to give these people equal footing in any debate is like giving the 1 in 100 climate change denying scientist equal weight in any debate. @info likes the simplistic ideas here and in other topics because it suits his nuance free political view of the world.
This line that most problems would be solved if people moved off country ignores the spiritual/cultural links between Aboriginals and their country where everything on that country and the seasons that wash through it has significance. Further, it ignores the history of colonial genocide and dispossession where mobs were rounded up (hunted) and forcibly removed off country to some mission station where colonial experiments like removal of children was routinely practiced.
This is hilarious/sad/embarrassing.
GuySmiley wrote:This line that most problems would be solved if people moved off country ignores the spiritual/cultural links between Aboriginals and their country where everything on that country and the seasons that wash through it has significance..
I agree this a problematic aspect with no easy answers.
On one hand you will never close the gap while people live on country, because it's never going to be realistic to provide the services needed, education, medical services etc and there will never be the employment needed which is vital.
But on the flip side anything that is seen to move or even lure people from homelands is going to always be seen in a negative light.
We saw this under Abbots proposal to close hundreds of remote communities which were not finically viable.
While i dont pretend to have the answers I did comment on this aspect the other day with some positive ideas.
indo-dreaming wrote:AndyM wrote:It tends to sound like you’re in favour of bundling up remote area indigenous people and shipping them off to the cities to put them to work.
Ha ha not exactly
In all honestly i dont have the soloution or even heard a realistic soloution to this issue.
Its problematic because you need to get these people to where there is jobs, education and other services or nothing will ever change.
But by doing so you are always going to be seen as destroying culture, taking people from traditional lands etc
So much money is spent on indigenous issues for little results, maybe some of that money could be used for a resttlement scheme that is completely up to the individual but rewards them with housing and employment.
I'm strongly against race based policy, but there is ways around that for instance things could be based on other factors instead like certain community's only being able to apply
Also mining operations etc should have to give employment priority of lower skilled jobs to people living within say 1000km and have to provide training in nearby communities to help people gain employment.
AlfredWallace wrote:I will end my discussion right here. Ive read so many of Indos reams of dialogue on this topic over the last year and the only message i can take away from analysing it all is that he is racist towards Aboriginal people which truly disturbs me.
I wonder what it would be like if the shoe was on the other foot, i wonder, i wonder, i wonder.
Yep. Frustrating as it is, hope you kick around and keep contributing @AlfredWallace.
Indo, respectfullessly, could you piss of now? This topic has gone for 2 years and been mostly sabotaged by you. Nothing you've said has changed in that 2 years. A whole bunch of good folk are wasting what could be good, thought provoking ideas moving forward, debating your mundane preconcieved blueprint of make australia great the white man way.
To do it so loudly and proudly during Reconciliation week too. Your above posts are truly shocking and disturbing. I reckon you could do worse than to take some time to spend West of the divide with some indigenous crew, and then get back to us.
Paul McD wrote:Indo, respectfullessly, could you piss of now? This topic has gone for 2 years and been mostly sabotaged by you.
It's a forum where people often have opposing ideas on things, you don't agree with me, and i dont agree with you, that's fine thats life, not sabotage.
If you or others want me to post here less it's probably wise just to ignore me, instead of everyone replying to every comment of mine with outdated cliche views or throwing insults back at me.
Oh and the answer sorry is NO.
“Outdated cliched views”. What? As opposed to blatant racism. You don’t discuss. Not once did anyone denigrate the views of OTHERS that you have adopted. We just added that maybe culture is not as large a part of aboriginal disenfranchisement as say 200+ years of systematic oppression. You’re the cockwomble who dismisses others quite legitimate points of view as dated and cliche all the while backpedaling from your ignorant racist comments.
Don’t play the humble debater now. Most have seen you.
Paul McD wrote:AlfredWallace wrote:I will end my discussion right here. Ive read so many of Indos reams of dialogue on this topic over the last year and the only message i can take away from analysing it all is that he is racist towards Aboriginal people which truly disturbs me.
I wonder what it would be like if the shoe was on the other foot, i wonder, i wonder, i wonder.Yep. Frustrating as it is, hope you kick around and keep contributing @AlfredWallace.
Indo, respectfullessly, could you piss of now? This topic has gone for 2 years and been mostly sabotaged by you. Nothing you've said has changed in that 2 years. A whole bunch of good folk are wasting what could be good, thought provoking ideas moving forward, debating your mundane preconcieved blueprint of make australia great the white man way.
To do it so loudly and proudly during Reconciliation week too. Your above posts are truly shocking and disturbing. I reckon you could do worse than to take some time to spend West of the divide with some indigenous crew, and then get back to us.
Paul MCD. I’m restless. Eight years ago I was teaching a class of young students around the age of 19 years and some students started talking about AFL football and a few of them said did you see how well a particular aboriginal player had performed over the weekend. Mid discussion another student who was born here but of Irish descent, yelled out “ I hate aboriginal people”, i was shocked and asked him to sit down.
One minute later, couldn’t help myself I asked him ‘Well, how many aboriginal people have you met ?” His reply, ‘none’. I then asked him if he hadn’t met any aboriginal people, how do you know you dislike them. He went silent and never provided an answer. Herein lies a huge problem in our society, perceived hatred towards others by simply absorbing all the crap thats out there. We have along way to go.
I wonder if Indo has a partner or is married and if so does that person know about his attitude. Maybe he or she shares Indo’s views, if so, I definitely hope they are not breeders.
soggydog wrote:“Outdated cliched views”. What? As opposed to blatant racism. You don’t discuss. Not once did anyone denigrate the views of OTHERS that you have adopted. We just added that maybe culture is not as large a part of aboriginal disenfranchisement as say 200+ years of systematic oppression. You’re the cockwomble who dismisses others quite legitimate points of view as dated and cliche all the while backpedaling from your ignorant racist comments.
Don’t play the humble debater now. Most have seen you.
Okay well just answer that one question then that you are unable to answer then.
Why does PNG see almost all the same problems but has not been impacted by colonialism or racism like Australia has?
And why does Indonesia not have these issues at the same rates yet was impacted by colonialism for a very long period of time?
I can explain why and have and it comes down to culture, and cultural isolation.
You can write things off as being racist, but its just a cheap way of trying to shut down the opposing argument, as ive pointed out quite clearly it's not about DNA, or skin colour etc
AlfredWallace wrote:I wonder if Indo has a partner or is married and if so does that person know about his attitude. Maybe he or she shares Indo’s views, if so, I definitely hope they are not breeders.
My wife is Indonesian with brown skin, she did actually work with an indigenous lady a few years ago with quite dark skin and also worked and friends with a lady from PNG and Africa, however she actually has what i consider racist views towards people with dark skin, and the phone conversations ive heard between her and an Indonesian friend who moved to Catherine would get me banned if i repeated them here.
And yes i have two lovely kids of mixed race.
One of my best mate's who was my best man has aboriginally ancestry with skin almost as brown as my wife.
Clearly you havent been reading my comments very well.
Yes @AlfredWallace. I would say in my experiences travelling oz, most of the older generation i've come across hold extreme racist views towards Indigenous Australians. That's bred down into their families attitudes and keeps the divide wide and obvious.
Also alot of these older generational Australians in more of the regional areas on the Western half of Australia have had land and assets passed down from generation to generation. So there's a level of privilege accompanying their belief systems.
And when you follow how that land was acquired in the first place and the punishment that was dished out to the original Indigenous inhabitants that could no longer live off their own land so were left with the only option of taking (what whitey had put there for profiteering like cattle) so they could at least still eat and feed their family...well....it's fair to say those rifts are as strong today as they were back then. The only difference is they're not allowed to shoot Indigenous people anymore. I guarantee these types would if they could. But the next best option, keep them as a separate race to whiteys and villify them for not having a culture like our superior one.
There is a very ugly side to Australia that sits comfortably out of the spotlight for most people, like the above goose.
indo-dreaming wrote:AndyM wrote:Indo you’re talking about culture driving success but you haven’t for a second considered the effect of racist colonial culture and it’s long-term intergenerational negative effects on indigenous Australians.
You clearly don’t appreciate how this has entrenched itself.
Simply saying “change your culture” is total bullshit.Let's think about this logically.
If the effect was such a driver as you say it is, then why are the biggest problems in remote communities where indigenous culture is strongest, self governance higher than elsewhere and where outside influence is minimal both now and historically and where people are not exposed to racism or if they are, very low levels because there is few non indigenous people and im sure they would get sorted out if were racist.
While those indigenous people living side by side in cities and built up areas under this racist colonial system and culture you speak of and actually may experience racism at times have the least issues and in general the majority are no different to you and me in success.
It's pretty clear your thought's dont pass the pub test, it's the exact opposite outcome of what your theory suggest.
While on the flip side the current scenario we see supports the theory of culture being a driver.
BTW. Im not exactly saying “change your culture” but you have to be honest and acknowledge the cause of the problems, so you can deal with them, again in PNG they have no choice but to do this.
Mate you claim that the biggest problems are in remote communities but how have you quantified this?
I’ve asked you this before but you’ve dodged it.
Paul McD wrote:Yes @AlfredWallace. I would say in my experiences travelling oz, most of the older generation i've come across hold extreme racist views towards Indigenous Australians. That's bred down into their families attitudes and keeps the divide wide and obvious.
Also alot of these older generational Australians in more of the regional areas on the Western half of Australia have had land and assets passed down from generation to generation. So there's a level of privilege accompanying their belief systems.
And when you follow how that land was acquired in the first place and the punishment that was dished out to the original Indigenous inhabitants that could no longer live off their own land so were left with the only option of taking (what whitey had put there for profiteering like cattle) so they could at least still eat and feed their family...well....it's fair to say those rifts are as strong today as they were back then. The only difference is they're not allowed to shoot Indigenous people anymore. I guarantee these types would if they could. But the next best option, keep them as a separate race to whiteys and villify them for not having a culture like our superior one.
There is a very ugly side to Australia that sits comfortably out of the spotlight for most people, like the above goose.
Sounds like extreme bullshit to me Paul.
“Most” older Australians hold extremely racist views towards Indigenous folk and West Australians would “shoot them if they could “ ? Your personal experience tells you that a LOT of West Aussies had cattle stolen off their family lands by indigenous folks and the rifts still extend to this day ? Oh really? How many genuine examples of individuals are you talking about there bloke?
You think spouting rubbish like that helps anyone?
DudeSweetDudeSweet wrote:Paul McD wrote:Yes @AlfredWallace. I would say in my experiences travelling oz, most of the older generation i've come across hold extreme racist views towards Indigenous Australians. That's bred down into their families attitudes and keeps the divide wide and obvious.
Also alot of these older generational Australians in more of the regional areas on the Western half of Australia have had land and assets passed down from generation to generation. So there's a level of privilege accompanying their belief systems.
And when you follow how that land was acquired in the first place and the punishment that was dished out to the original Indigenous inhabitants that could no longer live off their own land so were left with the only option of taking (what whitey had put there for profiteering like cattle) so they could at least still eat and feed their family...well....it's fair to say those rifts are as strong today as they were back then. The only difference is they're not allowed to shoot Indigenous people anymore. I guarantee these types would if they could. But the next best option, keep them as a separate race to whiteys and villify them for not having a culture like our superior one.
There is a very ugly side to Australia that sits comfortably out of the spotlight for most people, like the above goose.Sounds like extreme bullshit to me Paul.
“Most” older Australians hold extremely racist views towards Indigenous folk and West Australians would “shoot them if they could “ ? Your personal experience tells you that a LOT of West Aussies had cattle stolen off their family lands by indigenous folks and the rifts still extend to this day ? Oh really? How many genuine examples of individuals are you talking about there bloke?
You think spouting rubbish like that helps anyone?
DudeSweetDudeSweet. Another white Australian in denial, it was only a small time lag before you numpties would reply in a manner that I knew you would. How do you and your kin live with yourselves just blatantly ignoring all issues that you intellectually don’t or won’t understand. What’s life like living under a rock ? We are one fucked up xenophobic nation. There’s no hope.
Not exactly mate.
I was pointing out that Paul is either knowingly telling lies or is seriously deluded. He made several claims which any right minded person would consider laughable, except in this context they are quite disgusting. If Paul honestly wants to help heal society in Australia then I suggest he begin by not spouting divisive and hateful bullshit on Internet forums.
Imagine a young indigenous Australian getting on here and reading Paul’s disgraceful fiction that West Australians want to shoot indigenous Australians dead. Or reading his abhorrent fantasy that race relations in west Australia are at the same place they were when white settlers first started usurping land.
It’s one thing to acknowledge truths and another thing to exaggerate and lie in order to indulge his own fetish for division. Paul’s baseless lies serve no common good and are the single most divisive comments written on this entire thread.
Most older Australians don’t hold extreme racist views towards indigenous people. West Australians don’t wish they could shoot indigenous Australians. Racial issues are not at the same point they were decades ago. Australians do not want a segregated Australia. His claims to the contrary are all disgraceful lies and serve only to inspire racial tension. Paul should be ashamed for speaking such rubbish.
DSDS. You are totally delusional to think that most older Australians don’t hold severe racist views towards aboriginal people. I’m old and have lived in many of those regions PaulMcD has mentioned, the hatred and abhorrent behaviour towards them has been and still is despicable.
You wanna know the root cause of the hatred, well in W.A. in particular, most white folk see aboriginal people as road blocks to employment and jobs because they think that Native Title and other protectant policies will prevent them from getting land to mine for extractive industries and the big bucks that you earn if you work there. For every tonne of iron ore extracted from the The Pilbara, Australia has blood on its hands. Please look before your own lunchbox before attacking someone like PaulMcD who described it to a tee. Start reading books, you do learn you know, you can get educated.
Start with ‘Blood On The Wattle’ , if you’ve got kids and love all your forebears you’ll be in tears before the half way mark, that is, if you are a compassionate and decent person.
Read books?
I lived and worked throughout WA , mostly the Pilbara for over 25 years. I know what I’m talking about and Paul does not.
I’m not debating this. Paul is talking utter rot and if you repeat the same rubbish then you’re talking utter tot too.
“West Australians wish they could shoot indigenous Australians “
FFS
Dude sweet Blowhard. Swellnets resident creepy stalker. Stalks me online and then makes heavy shit up about me to try to put me down. Is there a worst kind of....um...bloke?
You know i don't engage with you. Not unless you put your real name up.
You can't hide behind your keyboard forever creepo.
Whatever. I’m not interested in you or your juvenile emotional state.
Just give your hate mongering a rest. Australia doesn’t need gronks like you talking lies to create more shit than we’ve already got.
Agreed @alfredwallace. Very easy to strike a nerve with the real racists on here is it. Just have to speak a little truth. Really hits where it hurts. Yes the native title claims are really ruffling some feathers over here.
Probably why the reparation conversation should have happened a long time ago.
So still no real name Blowin?
You wanna come on here and personally attack people constantly, even after i've repeatedly asked you to put your real name to it, and you STILL won't put it up.
Come on. Time to stop dancing around it. Otherwise, please stop trying to engage with me. I'd rather you speak with accountability so we can have a real conversation, and none of this trolling and insulting.
And i would like to know who you are after all the very personal and disrespectful allegations you made up on here.
@blowin, You'll either put your name up and show some honour and show that you're not someone that stalks people online when you know their identity and thus showing you're actually a man of honour and substance,
or you'll ignore this, remain anonymous...keep posting shit about me and it will be known to all that you are a completely strange, twisted, stalky troll that should be carefully watched. That's the last i have to say to you on here. From now on, i'm just gonna copy and paste this to any comment you make to me without your real name attached.
For sure bloke. I’ve lived and worked in remote communities trying to get to experience indigenous culture and do my little bit to improve their lot with my own labour in constant 40 degree conditions, whilst you type disgusting lies on the internet about how in 2022 modern Australian society we have West Australians wanting to shoot indigenous , how they want segregation and most Australians are EXTREME racists. You’d have indigenous people believe that relations between themselves and non -indigenous are at the same low point they were in 1788.
And you think I’m the one creating division and hate.
Grow up boy. No one needs or wants your brand of petulance.
Using one's real name on a thread like this has nothing to do with showing honour - evidently.
Not sure what you mean by that exactly @islandbay. Is that directed at me?
If i've said something on the topic that's offended you could you point out what exactly? Would be happy to discuss further.
"...most of the older generation i've come across hold extreme racist views towards Indigenous Australians..."
nah, this is just utter bullshit
or at best, just your perspective
you are aware your view of racism is totally subjective?
and 'most' means... well in this context, the vast majority...
from my experiences travelling oz, i would say 'most' australians have nothing but compassion for aboriginal people, and wish for nothing more than the betterment of their situation
yes they may articulate that in ways you 'may' find 'racist', but that's up to you...
a lot of those statements above really aren't helpful, and are just plain dated frankly
bingo bingo!
so predictable
but nothing to contribute...
Blokes world?
Wonder what Bertrand would make of our post-truth society.
Snuffy Smith wrote:Blokes world?
very apt!
facts...
hate...
can someone please define this amophous 'racism'?
can someone please define this so called but hugely ambiguous 'structural racism'?
defining these 'facts' is key to this conversation moving forward...
but no one cares to even bother explaining themselves and these key terms, so the conversation just devolves into a shit flinging contest, ...full of 'hate'... ironically enough...
again...
carry on
No-one has to post under their name; it's a personal decision whether you do or not.
Calling someone racist when you haven't bothered to understand their point of view says more about the accuser.
Complex issues require thorough explanations, especially to doubters.
Few pages back someone said something about whitefellas taking a backseat to a blackfella problem. Sounded hopeful but the last few pages make it look more hopeless.
or...
if 'advocates' would truly like some form of treaty or effective means from the uluru statemebt to get up - in a referendum - i emphasise referendum!
...something where 'most' people need to overwhelmingly support the premise...
then, I'd say you are going the wrong way about it...
again...
but carry on anyway...
(because perceived virtue is very addictive)
AndyM wrote:Mate you claim that the biggest problems are in remote communities but how have you quantified this?
I’ve asked you this before but you’ve dodged it.
Maaaatttteee firstly you have not replied to any of my questions, so to suggest i dodge your's is a complete joke.
I havent seen you ask this before and the very fact you ask goes to show how ignorant you are on the subject.
Im not wasting my time with you googling the topic to provide all stats and links which is vast to provide you with facts for you to then ignore my reply and not come back with any kind of rebuttal other than some silly meme or misquotation of me.
You can use google yourself and find articles and countless studies (use google scholar)
Key words: Indigenous remote communities with
Unemployment, education, illiteracy, housing, house overcrowding, healthcare, smoking rates, alcohol and drug abuse, life expediency rates, suicides rates, domestic violence, violence towards women, homicide rates, child abuse, rape, crime, prison rates, incarceration rates NT, WA ect.
" ...Complex issues require thorough explanations, especially to doubters ....".
Agreed but I seriously doubt whether the SN forums is the place to discuss complex social issues based on the full SN archived history of this and like topics. The vast majority of contributions are written with an open mind and in good faith but as always its the lowest common denominator(s) that seriously ruin it.
I have been in the city for a couple of days and haven't been reading this forum or any internet. Reading the last couple of pages where people are saying Western Australians would shoot aboriginal people if they could. WTF. I Iive in rural West OZ and that is one of the most obscene things I've heard. You have got to be kidding! Sure there might be the odd racist person here but the majority treat everyone as they wish to be treated. Treat someone like shit and you get it back no matter where you are from or skin colour.
This sort of stuff will only make matters worse. I was going to stay out of this thread but couldn't let that garbage slip by.
You could call that crap racism against white West Australians.
AndyM wrote:Wonder what Bertrand would make of our post-truth society.
exactly what i thought!
and, the stuff some of the posters put on here is totally and unashamedly influenced by this stuff
then snuffy posts that vid without a single iota of irony it would ssem...
bloody hilarious, if it wasn't so tragic
indo-dreaming wrote:AndyM wrote:Mate you claim that the biggest problems are in remote communities but how have you quantified this?
I’ve asked you this before but you’ve dodged it.Maaaatttteee firstly you have not replied to any of my questions, so to suggest i dodge your's is a complete joke.
I havent seen you ask this before and the very fact you ask goes to show how ignorant you are on the subject.
Im not wasting my time with you googling the topic to provide all stats and links which is vast to provide you with facts for you to then ignore my reply and not come back with any kind of rebuttal other than some silly meme or misquotation of me.
You can use google yourself and find articles and countless studies (use google scholar)
Key words: Indigenous remote communities with
Unemployment, education, illiteracy, housing, house overcrowding, healthcare, smoking rates, alcohol and drug abuse, life expediency rates, suicides rates, domestic violence, violence towards women, homicide rates, child abuse, rape, crime, prison rates, incarceration rates NT, WA ect.
Mate I'm sure there's plenty of stuff on issues in remote communities but how do you say it's so much worse than what's going on in towns like Fitzroy Crossing, Kal or any number of towns around Australia?
There're issues everywhere and they can all be traced back to colonisation and dispossession, however you clearly want to focus on remote communities so you can focus on your fixation that Indigenous culture is inherently shit and needs to be changed, preferably by moving Indigenous people to the cities where they can absorb the "superior white culture".
More milk in the coffee eh??
All the bad shit you listed happens more broadly, not just in remote communities, and trying to pass it off as something that happens most where "traditional culture is strongest" is a fucking lie and continues to paint you as a hard-core racist.
Not the casual, oops-a-daisy kind of racist but a considered, conscious, ugly-to-the-bone racist.
Whatever Andy you are clearly very narrow minded and lack the maturity to actually discuss the topic without belittling and name calling.
Haha, dodge.
I’m here to discuss the topic but I don’t think you’re for real.
Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x
The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.
Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.
Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.
The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.
Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??
Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28
References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28