The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

bluediamond started the topic in

Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

Supafreak Saturday, 6 Nov 2021 at 6:01pm

@brutus , I posted this before on a different thread a few months ago . The killers of eden . I found it fascinating and the relationship between Aboriginal Australians and killer whales is what interested me the most . Do you know anything more on this subject ? https://www.abc.net.au/local/audio/2013/10/29/3879462.htm

bluediamond Saturday, 6 Nov 2021 at 10:02pm

Great vid supafreak. I've visited Old Tom a few times at the museum there. So epic about the wattles coming into bloom. And the fact the Orcas congregated in one spot over night to sleep and chill. Amazing.
Mind drifted to what 40,000 plus years of observing and living off the coasts of this amazing land must have looked like, with no pollution, a fully flourishing ocean and untouched beaches and coast.
Beautiful place Eden. Spent alot of time there. Some classic seafarers tales in there.
Cheers.

seeds Saturday, 6 Nov 2021 at 10:02pm

That was an awesome watch Supa! Incredible story. I wonder how it all started. Mentions a few times how they were like or better than sheep dogs. How did they train them? Or did the killers instinctively join in knowing what was going on? I’d like to hear about that. Funny as was the story of the fella overboard getting a ride to safety on the killer’s back holding the fin.

Supafreak Saturday, 6 Nov 2021 at 10:16pm

The relationship between aborigines and orcas from what I’ve read has to do with reincarnation , and in ceremonies they paint themselves in the colours of the orcas , this is the part I’m hoping someone can elaborate on . Also in the first link did you click on to listen to the young lady telling her story ?

seeds Saturday, 6 Nov 2021 at 10:46pm

Totally missed that.
Just listened to it. That was great also.
Thanks

seeds Saturday, 6 Nov 2021 at 10:59pm

On another note I only found out last week that orcas aren’t whales at all but are actually the largest of the dolphin species.

Supafreak Saturday, 6 Nov 2021 at 11:21pm

@seeds , here’s another short interesting story on how Native Americans view orcas http://www.native-languages.org/killer-whale.htm

seeds Sunday, 7 Nov 2021 at 12:09am

Interesting the same beliefs in reincarnation to orcas as well. As opposed to many other marine possibilities. Maybe generations of harvesting fish forced onto beaches by orcas as in Eden led to the belief of past family members helping the living generation?
The Eden story about slapping the water and calling the orcas to bring the fish intrigues me. Most of us have probably seen vids of orcas or dolphins rushing fishing onto the sand to eat. Tapping into this is one thing but commanding this or communicating for this to happen is amazing. Connection to the natural world

Hutchy 19 Sunday, 7 Nov 2021 at 9:15am

As I have said children the world over often bully anyone different . Is this racism ?

"Maria Thattil has been dubbed one of the most beautiful women in the world.

But growing up, the Miss Universe Australia 2020 says she was bullied for her brown skin and Indian heritage.

The 28-year-old tells Body+Soul Magazine this week that her at age 15, a schoolmate was praised for her 'beautiful, European, golden brown tan' while slamming Maria's tone as 'dirty, Indian brown'. "

brutus Sunday, 7 Nov 2021 at 10:45am

Indo , just so ta know , I find our conversation very educational especially as you have opened up about your History here in australia....I am completely intrigued by how and why people of the right come to their opinions and what do they base it on!
It's plain to see that you and your family have had a shorter personal history in Australia , and did not really grow up in White Australia in the 50's and 60's like I did , as I am so bloody old I am nearly fossilized,LOL!
I have been beaten and abused for not being white , and didn't even know the word racism till I went to Hawaii in 73 ...and saw a bunch of Blackfellas that actually ran the North Shore and Whitefellas were second in the pecking order...and a lot of it out of respect......
I have seen and lived the White Australia policy coupled with the Stolen Generation , and learnt to hate white Australia well into the 80's.....but as I was travelling a lot , Bali 2 trips in 73' , Hawaii 73/74 , Jail 76 -78 , then France......I experienced the full spectrum of other Country's Cultures and found Australia to be one of the most racist Country's on the planet....
The more I went into Indigenous culture, I came across an acceptance of understanding and inclusiveness .
Australian's who were also marginalized because of White Australia's failure to understand and accept them as their own people....it was an us and them , situation which no longer exists today as there has and is amazing education/understanding , with all of this now becoming part of the National Identity....
us/we Australians should be proud of our long 50,000 year culture and embrace it as the foundation of our Nation.
That's why when I read your comments about 100% understanding my position , I am not sure you do.......as Indigenous Culture is and always will be our foundation as Australians, but you show more interest in Indonesia, because of your wife and kids......whereas I am still discovering and being taught about Australia's history , as I believe as a very Young Nation we need to rebuild Australia inclusive of all cultures....
That's why I am starting to think there is a lot of evidence that shows people who don't want to work together in understanding the past and the affects on us today .....are 1st generation Australians and/ or, are still are deeply influenced by their non-Australian ethnic cultures......that's why I posted , that there is enormous hope in our younger generations 2nd, 3rd etc.......who are now engaged in all of Australia's issues , with the goal of making life better for all.....
That's why I made the comment about Scomo ,are we really happy he is portraying Australia as a Nation that cannot be trusted , and that we are some kind of climate renegade in Kow Towing to the Fossil Fuel lobby.......
Once upon a time Australia was seen as a laid back /good bloke friend that when pushed we would and could punch way above out weight....to a Nations who's word cannot be trusted...and Bloke like Barnaby Joyce can hold the Nation to ransom as he spruiks the right wing dogma of jobs/industry at any cost!
So Indo , I only see one way for the future and that's where we disagree...accepting/understanding and being educated in the positives of our First Nations culture , which is ours.....as I keep bleating..."if you are not part of the solution, you are the problem."
That;s why I have spent so much time on here with you trying to profile you and your position so I can understand where and how to keep communicating the redefining of "us" as a Nation and that our kids, Grand kids won't have to deal with the same ugly issues of the past!!!

hmm where do we go from here Brutus?

As ive said before personally i have always had a degree of interest in Aboriginal culture, as i was that kid that was always outdoors looking under rocks and logs in the bush i hated being inside, my grandparents were heavily into gems stones and gold detecting, so if we weren't at the beach we were in the bush, and like many kids in the 80s i was brought up on the whole Harry Buttler, Leyland brothers, World safari stuff, and my favourite Auntie was a teacher in the remote region near NT/WA border right up north, so she always came back with stories and indigenous books for Christmas etc

My interest now its still there to some degree, i still watch doccos that are related and occasionally go down some reading rabbit hole, but my interest have also changed my passion is more Indonesia im more interested in the different cultures of the region and the history and language .

But i 100% understand why you are so interested in Indigenous culture and history.

But people have different interest, that's life, you cant force everyone to have the passion and interest in Indigenous culture as you do, outside of being taught in class, its up to the individual in what interest they have in learning more.

Im sorry but your links havent really provided me anything i already havent known, the Hutchy one did, i had no idea of the result, that was a huge eye opener.

You mentioning dot painting being a more recent thing the other day, that was also something i didn't know.

BTW. I was thinking about this the other day when i said i practise some Indonesian cultural elements in my life, really thats not true, they are mostly Javanese cultural aspects, just one element in a bigger umbrella term of being Indonesian

Indigenous culture is the same we can use a blanket term to cover it all, but really the different groups and regions had different cultural elements including art, ceremony and off course the cliche things like didgeridoos that were only used in certain areas (i believe the northern regions of the country)

Anyway right wings cool but i prefer conservative.

brutus Sunday, 7 Nov 2021 at 10:57am

Supafreak wrote:
The relationship between aborigines and orcas from what I’ve read has to do with reincarnation , and in ceremonies they paint themselves in the colours of the orcas , this is the part I’m hoping someone can elaborate on . Also in the first link did you click on to listen to the young lady telling her story ?

he ya freak...yeah it's amazing how well documented the Eden story is ...saw it years ago and asked around was this common ?
There are so many stories about interaction with whales and dolphins.....but nothing like the Eden story..amazing how there was a connection between the Orca's and the Blackfellas....the Orca's want the tongues and we need the rest.....then of course whales were nearly wiped out from and estimated 35'000 migrating up the East Coast in the mid 50's to 300 in 83'....and now we are back to over 20,000......just shows a bit of education , take out the greed.....and now the eco system is getting back to normal..and....there's a lot more sharks, LOL!

brutus Sunday, 7 Nov 2021 at 10:58am

seeds wrote:
Interesting the same beliefs in reincarnation to orcas as well. As opposed to many other marine possibilities. Maybe generations of harvesting fish forced onto beaches by orcas as in Eden led to the belief of past family members helping the living generation?
The Eden story about slapping the water and calling the orcas to bring the fish intrigues me. Most of us have probably seen vids of orcas or dolphins rushing fishing onto the sand to eat. Tapping into this is one thing but commanding this or communicating for this to happen is amazing. Connection to the natural world

makes you really wonder about first contact....how the hell did they first work out and work with Orca's.

seeds Sunday, 7 Nov 2021 at 12:14pm

Brutus I reckon that’s the real amazing story but we’ll (probably) never know.

Roker Sunday, 7 Nov 2021 at 12:35pm

Brilliant article on how the past is represented. So much to ponder in such a concise piece.

I wondered how is that we all know a bit about Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, Geronimo etc, but most, like me, would have never heard of Tongerlongeter? The way the former have been represented in popular culture may be highly dubious and the subject of much revision, but better that than being erased. Tongerlongeter?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-07/angel-of-history-threatens-trap-a...

blindboy Sunday, 7 Nov 2021 at 1:11pm

"The conversation went to the sins of Australia, the complicity of some of our leading figures and founding fathers in crimes against First Nations people. As Reynolds pointed out, Australia still celebrates these men. There are statues to people with blood on their hands." Here are a few names, amongst many, for you.
Henry Dangar, Major James Dunn, Kenneth Snodgrass

brutus Monday, 8 Nov 2021 at 8:53am

interesting article that explores, who is indigenous...written by a woman with multiple ethnic backgrounds......."I am a mixed-race person not quite blak enough, and will never be white, I will never be white at all. It doesn’t really matter. I know who I am, so does my family, so does Noongar Boodjar, my country.

Colonisers often ask me why I don’t identify with my Irish and English ancestry, why I prefer to identify with my Aboriginal family. There are many reasons – all of them, to my mind, compelling. The first is the simplest: if you could identify with the bully or the victim, with the murderers or the family of the murdered, with the genocidal colonisers or the colonised, who would you choose?

Secondly, if you were part of the culture that belongs somewhere, the first people, the people with a unique connection to the place, wouldn’t you live in that pride?

Finally, the colonisers were attempting genocide, they wanted us all dead. If I identified with my wadjela ancestry at the expense of my Aboriginality, the colonisers win.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/nov/08/not-quite-blak-en...

Blowin Monday, 8 Nov 2021 at 9:13am

brutus wrote:
interesting article that explores, who is indigenous...written by a woman with multiple ethnic backgrounds......."I am a mixed-race person not quite blak enough, and will never be white, I will never be white at all. It doesn’t really matter. I know who I am, so does my family, so does Noongar Boodjar, my country.

Colonisers often ask me why I don’t identify with my Irish and English ancestry, why I prefer to identify with my Aboriginal family. There are many reasons – all of them, to my mind, compelling. The first is the simplest: if you could identify with the bully or the victim, with the murderers or the family of the murdered, with the genocidal colonisers or the colonised, who would you choose?

Secondly, if you were part of the culture that belongs somewhere, the first people, the people with a unique connection to the place, wouldn’t you live in that pride?

Finally, the colonisers were attempting genocide, they wanted us all dead. If I identified with my wadjela ancestry at the expense of my Aboriginality, the colonisers win.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/nov/08/not-quite-blak-en...

That woman is deranged. You’re better than that bullshit Brutus. Her opinion is a direct affront to the 99.999999999% of English and Irish that never murdered anyone or even ill treated people. Let the mentally ill foster their irrational thoughts if it gets them through life but the media has no business promoting such hateful rubbish as that ……except as dog whistling click bait for fellow racists.

She shits all over the love of her forebears in order to foster her own victimhood.

brutus Monday, 8 Nov 2021 at 9:16am

Blowin , yep as expected , typical reaction , didn't read the full article....it's a point of view of someone who has actually lived her story , and obviously studied her history , but you dismiss her as deranged , because you think you know more......nuff said !

Blowin wrote:
brutus wrote:
interesting article that explores, who is indigenous...written by a woman with multiple ethnic backgrounds......."I am a mixed-race person not quite blak enough, and will never be white, I will never be white at all. It doesn’t really matter. I know who I am, so does my family, so does Noongar Boodjar, my country.

Colonisers often ask me why I don’t identify with my Irish and English ancestry, why I prefer to identify with my Aboriginal family. There are many reasons – all of them, to my mind, compelling. The first is the simplest: if you could identify with the bully or the victim, with the murderers or the family of the murdered, with the genocidal colonisers or the colonised, who would you choose?

Secondly, if you were part of the culture that belongs somewhere, the first people, the people with a unique connection to the place, wouldn’t you live in that pride?

Finally, the colonisers were attempting genocide, they wanted us all dead. If I identified with my wadjela ancestry at the expense of my Aboriginality, the colonisers win.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/nov/08/not-quite-blak-en...

That woman is deranged. You’re better than that bullshit Brutus. Her opinion is a direct affront to the 99.999999999% of English and Irish that never murdered anyone or even ill treated people. Let the mentally ill foster their irrational thoughts if it gets them through life but the media has no business promoting such hateful rubbish as that ……except as dog whistling click bait for fellow racists.

brutus Monday, 8 Nov 2021 at 9:19am

here Blowin read this,and get back to me , as I think it applys to you !

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-07/angel-of-history-threatens-trap-a...

Blowin Monday, 8 Nov 2021 at 9:31am

No. I think she is deranged because she is spewing contradictory hate filled rubbish. She is not accounting for history she is spewing rubbish. I’d summarily show you exactly why it’s rubbish except that I can no longer access the article. I do particularly remember her saying that her relatives had interracial relationships and then she immediately went on to say that all mixed relationships were the result of colonisation…..WTF? Her relatives found love and didn’t give a fuvk about skin colour but now generations down the track she is belittling the very goodness of humanity so she can paint her broad strokes race hate rubbish.

brutus Monday, 8 Nov 2021 at 9:30am

Blowin wrote:
No. I think she is deranged because she is spewing contradictory hate filled rubbish. She is not accounting for history she is spewing rubbish.

well go ahead and identify what is actually the hate filled rubbish that has upset you so much?

Blowin Monday, 8 Nov 2021 at 9:44am

brutus wrote:
Blowin wrote:
No. I think she is deranged because she is spewing contradictory hate filled rubbish. She is not accounting for history she is spewing rubbish.

well go ahead and identify what is actually the hate filled rubbish that has upset you so much?

Blowin Monday, 8 Nov 2021 at 10:00am

I don’t think that lady is deranged and I shouldn’t have spoken so poorly of her. I don’t know what she has been through but I don’t believe that vilifying an entire race will heal anyone or improve the circumstances of a single person in the world now or into the future. The answer is love not hate.

brutus Monday, 8 Nov 2021 at 12:38pm

Blowin wrote:
I don’t think that lady is deranged and I shouldn’t have spoken so poorly of her. I don’t know what she has been through but I don’t believe that vilifying an entire race will heal anyone or improve the circumstances of a single person in the world now or into the future. The answer is love not hate.

Blowin where do you see the hate from her???

As I have said all along there is no blame or hate , just try and understand her life/history from her point of view!

A problem is that if the same happened to you maybe you would be hateful....that's why in the article , she talks about her choices and how she is defining her future by the acts of the past!!

GuySmiley Monday, 8 Nov 2021 at 3:31pm

ooops

indo-dreaming Monday, 8 Nov 2021 at 7:00pm

Id feel really disappointed if my daughter or son had the views the lady in the article has, i mean i dont see why it needs to be like barracking for a football team you dont have to pick one side and then demonise the other.

It would suck if one day my kids go dad im Indonesian only, i dont want anything to do with my english/dutch aspect those people were evil colonizers.

Id much rather they just be happy to be part english/dutch half Indonesian and Aussie born, and understand that all groups of people have positive and negative aspects in their history and its pointless focusing on the negatives and much better to focus on the positive's, otherwise you just become a bitter person.

People should be proud and happy what every their ethnic background or mix of backgrounds or not matter what shade of skin colour they are, none are better than the other they are just different.

BTW. Had to laugh when i got to the last quote.

AndyM Monday, 8 Nov 2021 at 7:19pm

Is she quoting you there Indo?

Your reputation is spreading.

brutus Tuesday, 9 Nov 2021 at 7:33am

indo-dreaming wrote:
Id feel really disappointed if my daughter or son had the views the lady in the article has, i mean i dont see why it needs to be like barracking for a football team you dont have to pick one side and then demonise the other.

It would suck if one day my kids go dad im Indonesian only, i dont want anything to do with my english/dutch aspect those people were evil colonizers.

Id much rather they just be happy to be part english/dutch half Indonesian and Aussie born, and understand that all groups of people have positive and negative aspects in their history and its pointless focusing on the negatives and much better to focus on the positive's, otherwise you just become a bitter person.

People should be proud and happy what every their ethnic background or mix of backgrounds or not matter what shade of skin colour they are, none are better than the other they are just different.

BTW. Had to laugh when i got to the last quote.

Indo your comments say it all ...your kids are born in Australia, part English/Dutch......Colonialism was evil... Country's at the time who were of the Colonial mindset , wreaked havoc on the World....especially Indigenous peoples.........
You see bitterness , I see truth and no violence/forgiveness and a need and want to assimilate all Australians.......but you are prepared to not recognize this as you keep talking about hate and bitterness .....and lets not revisit the history that's still being uncovered...
What Clair is talking about is a sense of identity and where she feels she belongs.....you see her rejection of White colonial values and her identifying with her indigenous roots as bitterness....."There’s a saying among blak mob, ‘It doesn’t matter how much milk you put in tea, it’s still tea.’ I am a descendant of genocide survivors, a child of the oldest living culture on Earth. Nothing, no amount of milk, can change that."
Indo you are not really part of the changing identity of Australia , which is sad because you now seem to want to have an Australian Culture that has no basis!

indo-dreaming Tuesday, 9 Nov 2021 at 2:06pm

brutus wrote:
What Clair is talking about is a sense of identity and where she feels she belongs.....you see her rejection of White colonial values and her identifying with her indigenous roots as bitterness....

What are these "white colonial values" she is rejecting????

Ive never heard of them, i think they are long gone and have since evolved and what we have now is values and ideals based on a modern ever changing multicultural society.

brutus Wednesday, 10 Nov 2021 at 12:58pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
brutus wrote:
What Clair is talking about is a sense of identity and where she feels she belongs.....you see her rejection of White colonial values and her identifying with her indigenous roots as bitterness....

What are these "white colonial values" she is rejecting????

Ive never heard of them, i think they are long gone and have since evolved and what we have now is values and ideals based on a modern ever changing multicultural society.

Indo what she is rejecting is a society based on materialism , and lack of connection to country.

I have spoken at length with elders who laughingly reject our current values and the supposed superiority of our current culture.

They embrace spirituality (Dreamtime) and a social structure that is superior to what has and is being provided for them....

So what do you think when they realize that the Western World 's formula for the future is severely compromised , and the so called rights we all have in Democracy...where our whole civilization is based on "one law for the rich , another for the poor " .....

try and explain what Lobby groups do in a Democracy....or try and explain to a blackfella/indigenous fella that when you get old we will stick you in a retirement home , so we don't have to look after them....or care for them....but it's grat business model , lots of profit to made abusing old people...or as we like to call them elders!

indo-dreaming Wednesday, 10 Nov 2021 at 6:03pm

@ Brutus

You didn't really answer the question which is of no surprise, because "white colonial values" don't exist anymore, it's just something that sounds good.

The things you are talking about are just human modern values.

Anyway she doesnt seem very good at rejecting these things either, i mean it seems she writes books for a living printed in the colonalist language on colonist paper, published by colonist publishers and is on colonist twitter she even has a colonist website powered by colonist electricity and lived most of her live in Melbourne colonist central away from her traditional home land in WA, obviously Indigenous people like Indonesians aren't one ethinc group but made up a large number of ethnic groups, so the mob here compared to her mob in WA is like comparing Balinese to Javanese, similar but different.

Anyway she seems to be the typical talking the talk but not walking the walk, when she rejects modern life and society and really goes back to her ancestors roots and really practises a traditional culture and lifestyle then yeah.

brutus Wednesday, 10 Nov 2021 at 6:37pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
@ Brutus

You didn't really answer the question which is of no surprise, because "white colonial values" don't exist anymore, it's just something that sounds good.

The things you are talking about are just human modern values.

Anyway she doesnt seem very good at rejecting these things either, i mean it seems she writes books for a living printed in the colonalist language on colonist paper, published by colonist publishers and is on colonist twitter she even has a colonist website powered by colonist electricity and lived most of her live in Melbourne colonist central away from her traditional home land in WA, obviously Indigenous people like Indonesians aren't one ethinc group but made up a large number of ethnic groups, so the mob here compared to her mob in WA is like comparing Balinese to Javanese, similar but different.

Anyway she seems to be the typical talking the talk but not walking the walk, when she rejects modern life and society and really goes back to her ancestors roots and really practises a traditional culture and lifestyle then yeah.

the affect of colonial values still exist....you never answered about the White Australia policy except it was a long time ago.......So lets just say that Western Society's secular civilization doesn't work for indigenous people who seek more than just the material stuff that modern man loves!

indo-dreaming Wednesday, 10 Nov 2021 at 7:21pm

If it didn't work they would completely reject it and try to go back to a traditional life.

Does it ever happen?

If it does i expect rare as most people like the luxuries of the modern world, electricity, TV, phones, modern houses, modern medicine, and yeah the bad things like alcohol and tobacco (even though technically they had alcohol in some areas and some areas chewed plants that contained nicotine)

You know what would actually make an awesome documentary and social type experiment.

Take a small community of Indigenous people in a remote community ideally with some issues, and do a real life docco series on them trying to go back to a traditional life with no modern tools etc, i have no doubt they could do it especially if guidance of elders with knowledge and im sure many positives would come out of it for them.

Have deep insightful warts and all interviews before and during etc

Im talking a very long period type docco series like filmed over a year.

seeds Wednesday, 10 Nov 2021 at 7:37pm

Indo you should’ve gone on this show
https://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/program/first-contact

seeds Wednesday, 10 Nov 2021 at 7:41pm

indo-dreaming Wednesday, 10 Nov 2021 at 8:28pm

seeds wrote:
Indo you should’ve gone on this show
https://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/program/first-contact

Looks interesting, but im sorry if you are insinuating i havent had contact with Aboriginal people, you are wrong.

Ive had contact with indigenous people through my life just some examples, foster kids next door were often Aboriginal sadly a revolving door of kids, often played with the kids, although no matter skin colour mum sometimes didn't like us hanging with them as some clearly had a lot of issues.

Two twin brothers a few doors up over the fence father was Aboriginal from Lake Tyres (i think, see story below)

I went to school for a year smack bang in a housing commission area where it was a bit of an Aboriginal community, a mate in my class was as dark as could be, i actually remember one time going to the milk bar at lunch and him getting heckled by other older Aboriginal guys hanging around the shop for hanging with us.

One of my best mate's who was my best man has Aboriginal ancestry (his mother makes a big deal about it but he couldn't care less) actually at one point i lived with him and another Aboriginal guy with much darker skin, to be honest it wasn't even something we talked about though and both of them don't really seem to embrace their ethnicity even now. (although other family members do)

Edit: forgot maybe another important aspect: my fav Auntie was as a school teacher in a small aboriginal community near NT/WA border way up north (Umagarri, not sure on spelling) and although we never visited her there, she would come back on holidays and tell us stories and photos and gave us books on the dream time etc, so was exposed to all kinds of Aboriginal aspects through her too.

Totally random story:

Regarding the twins that lived a few doors up over the fence, i went to kindy and primary school with them and spent a lot of time at there place, sleep overs etc, as a kid i noticed they had brown skin and their father much darker(mother white i think), but i never though much of it, it was never talked about that i can recall, as silly as this sounds as a kid i pictured them as Hawaiian because they always use to wear Hawaiian shirts and had trinkets from Hawaii on their mantle piece and they had foamy surfboards the first boards of any kind id seen.

Anyway one day i was around there before i had to go to Phillip Island for the weekend to our block of land and their father said, i own a block of land at Lake Tyres, and the twins were like what?...are you serious all excited and he was like yeah but you cant tell your mum.

I was maybe 8 years old or so, but i remember it so clearly, even back then i remember thinking how weird it was he had land but the wife didnt know, and I remember him being quite serious that the twins not mention anything, like he had let it slip and shouldn't have.

I have no idea what every became of his secret if he every told the wife etc, i expect if still together it had to come out, i have no idea how he even kept it a secret, i expect he had to pay rates.

Anyway we went to different schools after grade 6 and lost touch and we moved to the coast, it wasn't until we reconnected on Facebook about ten years ago that it was obvious their father must have been indigenous and they had embraced the indigenous aspect, its only then that i clicked, they weren't hawaiian their father was indigenous, so i guess they are too.

seeds Wednesday, 10 Nov 2021 at 8:31pm

Nice stories but hardly qualifies you to comment with knowledge on remote communities issues.
That was what the series was about. To immerse people just like you into the issues. To live it for a short while. To talk to the people and more importantly listen to the people about their issues. Some came out with a better understanding others cracked it and left early with no change in their thinking at all.

indo-dreaming Thursday, 11 Nov 2021 at 8:36am

seeds wrote:
Nice stories but hardly qualifies you to comment with knowledge on remote communities issues.
That was what the series was about. To immerse people just like you into the issues. To live it for a short while. To talk to the people and more importantly listen to the people about their issues. Some came out with a better understanding others cracked it and left early with no change in their thinking at all.

Im curious so will give it at least one episode a watch and go from there.

I have also been to remote community's with large indigenous populations, that said visiting isn't the same as living and talking to people.

I did have a mate whom i use to work for that is very left leaning in his views and went to a very remote community to build housing and came back totally disillusioned as the house's generally got trashed within months, no surprise people rarely appreciate things unless they earn them.

Other than that ive read and listened to many knowledgable Aboriginal people on the issues in these communities so I'm not at all uninformed to the issues.

And no its not all bad, off course not, but there is also a whole host of problems with stats much higher than other areas of Australia.

The real problem is we arent being honest about the root causes of the issues in these communities most very obvious virtually no employment prospects and never will be, poor health and education facilities which is hard to fix because its never going to be viable to provide every community with what is needed and staff.

But there is also a cultural aspect, no culture is perfect to think so is crazy, older roots style cultures obviously have cultural elements remaining from a very different period, these aspects don't just change overnight, its crazy to think or expect they do.

BTW. None of us need to be deeply immersed in it to comment anyway, you dont need to be a rocket scientist to understand issues of employment, education, medical even the cultural issues, the first three aren't unique to any one group in this situation.

Post from yesterday on someone that lives and breaths it

brutus Thursday, 11 Nov 2021 at 3:07pm

Very interesting Indo.....when you read Jacinta's message about gender imbalance...the mobs I have been involved with the Woman are elders also....I wonder if Jacinta's mob don't have women elders?
Your post where you mentioned how you grew up and when an Aboriginal boy talked to you he got in trouble with his black mates. ......very interested to hear why you think his mates looked down on you...racism towards whites??
One of the most powerful stories about urban raised first peoples , is the story of the Page Brothers and the Bangarra Dance group......which explains a lot about blackfellas who were brought up in Brisbane and spent their lives reconnecting with their culture...considered one of the greatest dance groups on the planet...a bit sad in places especially the suicides.....have a look pretty positive but also there is a narrative about connecting /connection.......

that's where I see our differences Indo.....connection to old Australian/colonial Culture and the change that is now happening , with First peoples culture now being studied and understood , and incorporated into our National Identity...

So welcome to Country , welcome to a 50 K+ year old culture , we don't own the land we are custodians......there is a spiritual story to be told of the land...would you like to join us in out storytimes and art....???

brutus Thursday, 11 Nov 2021 at 6:04pm

Wow , Constance that article hits the problem of why Indigenous people struggle with Capitalism at the expense of their culture /lifestyles.....excellent article that explains why Indigenous people who looked after the land which provided them with , life!
"In pre-capitalist Australia, humans did not despoil nature; they consciously improved it. Within a few years, white settlement changed all of that. Land the colonists had assumed was inexhaustibly fertile became barren clay, exposed to the sun and rapidly eroding. The unmaking of the continent resulted not from human activity so much as the wrong kind of human activity. A relatively tiny number of Europeans prevented a larger number of Indigenous people from maintaining the environment in the way that they’d done for tens of thousands of years."

Greed , and more greed at any cost...From the technological world of the 21st century, we cannot, of course, return to the conditions that prevailed in a pre-1788 Australia. But that’s not the point. The remarkably rapid destruction of the landscape created by Indigenous people was not brought about by modern machines. On the contrary, the settlers ruined the land with distinctly low-tech methods. The problem was not technology, but a social system that deployed technology in certain ways, replacing the conscious choices of humans with the blind agency of capital.

For 50,000 years, Indigenous Australians enhanced the land on which they lived. Their example, and that of other native peoples, shows an ecological society to be possible, not some kind of dream or utopia........

Constance B Gibson wrote:
Brutus, here's some deeper reading to ponder...

https://redflag.org.au/article/unmaking-our-relationship-natural-world?f...

brutus Friday, 12 Nov 2021 at 9:53am

we are all learning, how's this gem ..applies to all of us, black white yellow....."But there is a varying degree and depth of trauma that affect us as individuals; therefore we either repeat the behaviours, or we become aware and address them.

The question is: which one are you doing?

Every one of us is on a varying path of discomfort. The cycle of trauma runs deep, not just in communities but also within the family home.

I think people sometimes don’t understand the full concept of what trauma is – thinking that trauma is an event or a behaviour that we experience during our life, without understanding the full depth and the long term impacts.

Trauma isn’t just what happens to us physically, mentally or emotionally; trauma is the structural process that happens inside of us, as a result of what we have experienced.

From that, we all build different behaviours, ways to cope and survive, the best way we know how.

When you understand the depth of this concept, you understand that we are all just doing our best to firstly understand, process and untangle the many coping mechanisms we have built over many, many generations; a lot of the time through learned behaviour.

None of us are exempt from this, we are all just at different points along the track. Some people are aware, others completely unaware of the impact of their own behaviours, both on themselves and on others. It is in the behaviours we all grow up with – that are normalised since birth."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/nov/11/to-heal-we-must-un...

Constance B Gibson wrote:
...And obviously (well, to some...most?) something we all NEED to come to grips with, acknowledge, and learn from, personally and politically.

Gifts are out there!

And more and more of us are getting attuned.

bluediamond Saturday, 13 Nov 2021 at 2:18pm

A great little story about an old friend of mine who i've mentioned here before, who's sadly no longer with us.
I think it highlights that connection to a lost culture that can now bring so much pride to indigenous Australians and is another stepping stone on the way forward.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-19/rediscovering-the-kaurna-language...

Fliplid Tuesday, 16 Nov 2021 at 9:00am

Just finished reading Gudyarra: The First Wiradyuri War of Resistance by Stephen Gapps.

It lays out the expansion of pastoralists from Sydney into the Bathurst region in the 1820's and the resistance put up by the Wiradyuri people in 1822-24 after they lost access to their land and food stocks caused by the increasing herds of cattle and sheep. It is an interesting and even handed account of the way colonisation of aboriginal lands occurred.

A good prima book is Macquarie by Grantlee Keiza because in that book it shows how the role he played had a great deal of relevance to what happened in Bathurst. Also it explains the machinations of, particularly, Reverend Samuel Marsden as well as other big land holders of the colony who campaigned successfully to get Macquarie thrown out of Sydney, to their benefit. It was basically this group of men who pushed for the land grabs and the reprisals against the aboriginals

Both are worth a read for anyone with an interest in Australian history with an emphasis on what happened to the aboriginals at the time of European settlement

GuySmiley Tuesday, 16 Nov 2021 at 12:15pm

Updated massacre map

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/ng-interactive/2019/mar/04/ma...

simba Tuesday, 16 Nov 2021 at 12:45pm

GS well they need to update the update because there is no mention of the massacre at RedRock north of Coffs...

History
The area, on Gumbaynggirr traditional lands, was first colonised in the 19th century when farmers established themselves at what is now Corindi Beach.

A plaque at Red Rock commemorating the Bloodrock Massacres
The headland is the site of a massacre of the Gumbaynngir indigenous people in the mid 19th century. A memorial has been erected at the base of the headland to commemorate this. The massacre began at Blackadders Creek when mounted police entered the camp. They started shooting and then pursued the survivors to the Corindi River where they continued shooting. Some people were then driven off the headland. The headland may have been named Red Rock because the river went red from the blood of the indigenous people.[2]

brutus Sunday, 21 Nov 2021 at 7:55am

lets restart with a bit of positive Sunday news from Adam Goodes and his new Childrens book ,"Somebody's land."
Hopefully this is another building block in Australia's National identity....."Somebody’s Land is a way of sharing the things that Indigenous people have always done. We have a history that people don’t understand and have never been told about, so this book is an introduction to our shared history."

You will note only positive actions going forward , and a nice little read about Adams upbringing ,Mum being stolen Generation.....a lot of pain and misery , but here he is with a Kids book educating kids about First Nations culture!

https://www.theage.com.au/culture/books/adam-goodes-we-can-t-shy-away-fr...

brutus Tuesday, 23 Nov 2021 at 8:28am

Australia becoming a World leader, not really SN info bit arty, but none the less this is Australia!!!......."If circus speaks in the language of wonder, the essence of contemporary circus is to make poetry from it. Australia has emerged as a world leader in the form during the 21st century, yet for all the creative ferment of our circus scene, it’s still unusual to witness something as moving and aesthetically complete as Na Djinang’s Common Dissonance."

https://www.theage.com.au/culture/theatre/australia-makes-good-circus-bu...

brutus Tuesday, 23 Nov 2021 at 10:07am

So a mining Co , Glencore....takes advertisements out against 2 Aboriginal men , because they oppose mining on a massacre site, that has significant cultural meaning to the Wonnura people.......
Scott Franks and Robert Lester identify as Wonnarua people, the traditional landowners in the Upper Hunter. They have applied to protect Aboriginal massacre sites at the historic Ravensworth Homestead and surrounding lands near Singleton."
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/nov/23/glencore-launches...

gragagan Tuesday, 23 Nov 2021 at 11:46am

That's disgraceful...

bluediamond Tuesday, 23 Nov 2021 at 3:33pm

That's not good. Sounds like the wheels are in motion to stop it, and hopefully places of cultural significance being tampered with in the future. Would feel like a massive kick in the teeth considering the significance of the site and what happened there.

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