The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
that's some serious shift and compromise...
gotta embrace your opportunities I guess, its the america dream after all...
sorry, but I like more credibility in my gurus
those socialist / communist wannabee opportunists certainly ain't of the sanders corbyn class
ie. cannot be bought...
Sheesh. Some good points made above. BUT.
But I cannot and will not judge Indigenous Australians and presume to have a solution or worse claim to have an insight to their (percieved) downfall or failure.
It simply isn't my place to do so.
Imagine if some other race or culture came to OZ and told us as a nation we were failing and needed help. And these other people suggested all these ways we could "fix" us as a society.
Ban booze, stop wasting your life catching those waves, stop looking at internet porn.
Reckon we would tell em to get fucked and IF we have an issue we will sort it out ourselves.
Dunno?
This picture appeared on the front page of the Sydney Morning Herald on the 25th may 1967, 2 days before the referendum. Victor Hookey (left) and Mark Anthony (right). Redfern Lane.
https://ibb.co/4gCSdp6
That’s what Australia needs Megzee.
"...But I cannot and will not judge Indigenous Australians and presume to have a solution or worse claim to have an insight to their (percieved) downfall or failure.
It simply isn't my place to do so."
I don't think its so much about judgement and commenting on their (percieved) downfall or failure at all
tbh, there's lots to celebrate, the fact they are still here in significance and with relative power is a testament to their character and resliance... it's more about the way forward and living better together, which we all have a stake in...
"Imagine if some other race or culture came to OZ and told us as a nation we were failing and needed help. And these other people suggested all these ways we could "fix" us as a society.
Ban booze, stop wasting your life catching those waves, stop looking at internet porn.
Reckon we would tell em to get fucked and IF we have an issue we will sort it out ourselves.
Dunno?"
well I'm actually totally cool with it.. as long as its not some seppo (pale one) lecturing me about racism...
in fact I get this all the time at work, as Im surrounded by many people new to australia, and i actually initiate and encourage it... an outsiders view is often invaluable... but I appreciate I may be a bit different in that regard, so yes we should always try to show sensitivity, ...but I don't agree that anyone should be silenced, which is the current belief amongst many
indod cops all sorts of shit on here, and he does make me cringe from time to time, but i think he gives a great insight into your average aussie. he can be a bit black and white, a bit autistic in nature at times, but if you know him, you can see he always tries to be respectful
blowin cops more shit, and can make me cringe even more, but he's a knowledgable fellow with wide experiences, and, Im pretty sure, he's just notching it up a peg or two most of the time, throwing bombs to knock down some walls, walls of dogma that have grown around forbidden grounds, where the walls have just gotten higher and thicker thicker with time... protecting long held beliefs and 'truths', that, for anyone not in 'the club', that forbidden ground is now near void of reality and any 'truth'... to the point of being delusional and dangerous...
as brutus pointed out, surfers are closer to nature than just about anyone, they also travel a lot, often to poor disadvantaged communities, levels of poverty that many aboriginal people could not even imagine. they also often frequent the desert regions for work and pleasure, so I think surfers are well equipped to comment on the issues and the ways forward
but yeh, I appreciate that many don't see it that way, but tough titties...
nah not really, joking, I temper my conversation on here immensely, because I know some are easily pissed and offended, and i think most people do the same. Im sorry if it seems I don't, but we all have different ideas of what's acceptable, what's important...
finding common ground is what's important, both in the conversation and outcomes. which just seems to be getting harder and harder on any political issue, as both sides bunker down into some pretty loose ideological dogma...
dogma ain't cool... it's just too bloody dogmatic!
debate is good, wide roaming rambling debate...
if you don't like it, don't read it, ...call someone a cunt and storm out the chat room... change the channel... whatever...
or engage with reasonable arguments, as you have done
I think the conversation has gone pretty well really, pretty civil and on topic, everyone has had a fair go and fair say, no need to agree on everything, i don't feel like I've copped shit at all.
Cringe, argh i cringe at other peoples comments sometimes, each to their own.
I would say Melbourne is not White Australia . Travelling on trains regularly shows me that I am in no way the majority ( mum is Dutch so I am Caucasian ) . Firstly Chinese , then Italians , Greeks , Dutch , all other Asians , Indians , Middle Easterners , Africans etc . All living in a Capitalist system that works well . I love it and one reason Melb has such wonderful food . Amazingly we all love AFL ( spectators are split 50/50 women and men ) .
Hunter Gatherers the world over were the perfect capitalists ( please stay with me ) .
Every member HAS to contribute . No slackers ! If you were the best hunter you were required to spend most of your time hunting ( even if you preferred digging out canoe's ) etc etc so a society were people had specialities . Small groups usually no more than 100 ( this is a MAGIC number the same around the world ) with their own languages , beliefs and cultures . Their lifestyle allowed lots of free time ( unlike the first farmers ) and they looked after each other as long as you contributed . Otherwise you were left behind or killed . A great lifestyle but also very short in most cases . Very little to trade but when they did they were happy to barter if those living near them were friendly . They also took advantage and changed their environment . If they had a great food food supply in one place they would not move ie coastal groups . They killed the mega fauna in Australia , North and South America and New Zealand . Why wouldn't they as the animals would be big and tasty and would not run away ( see animals in the Galapagos Islands ) .
They were not at all Marxist as every member was different and no one had the right to be looked if they did not contribute to what the group needed . Marxism has killed mote people than any other system ( Millions more than Hitler ) in the last 100 years . The ultimate do as I say , usually with I know better . Give me freedom every day .
Throughout history most living this lifestyle have evolved to capitalism and only some of their wisdom has been passed on . It is called Imperialism ( Empires ) which has been the major influence of human evolution since year dot .
indo-dreaming wrote:I think the conversation has gone pretty well really, pretty civil and on topic, everyone has had a fair go and fair say, no need to agree on everything, i don't feel like I've copped shit at all.
Cringe, argh i cringe at other peoples comments sometimes, each to their own.
Agreed. Enjoying reading everyones different perspectives. Been busy but had a quick read through and really appreciate all the thoughts and philosophies each contributor has put forth. It's a good conversation to have.
nice pic megzee, absolute gold
yeh, I think its gone well too indod, but there's always some new guy (or old one...) that comes along and says you can't say that...
which isn't a shot at you cacadajy, it's just how it is... and I get it, it's kind of fair enough, but I just think this thinking has gone way too far, and causes problems rather than fixes them
cringe was probably the wrong word, and I wasn't just talking about this thread, was talking more generally, and the cringe was more about me cringing at what comes next... because one of youse went there... but Im usually glad you did...
Will try and add a general solution to the terrible social problems in many Indigenous communities .
As I mentioned in a previous post , resentments blind all people to the futures possibilities . How do we change this ? All people should be respected , loved , treated equally and given education . I hope that can happen and I believe it can . I also believe Australia is one of the least racist countries . It is human nature to mix with those you relate to and to discriminate against those you don't relate to . Look at children . Knowledge give people the ability and wisdom to relate to all humans of different colours , religions and cultures .
sypkan wrote:cringe was probably the wrong word, and I wasn't just talking about this thread, was talking more generally, and the cringe was more about me cringing at what comes next... because one of youse went there... but Im usually glad you did...
Ha ha yeah i get what you are saying.
It's kind of eye rolling stuff sometimes..
Sometimes it's like really are we going to do this again???..
You even sit back thinking okay im not going to comment on this, and then you get curious and read something and you cant help but throw your 2 cents worth in.
Or sometimes it's like should i even go there as i know what people are going to instantly think/assume?
Or im thinking Blowin no no just let this one go dont do it....but bang he goes there :D
Or people throwing out terrible cliche views be it from the left or right.
wow , have a 1/2 day off and ......so many comments , none of which I find cringeworthy , as people have opinions based on what they have experienced , read and or some who just want to call the discussion a "wankfest",LOL !
a lot of valid points , so could take me the rest of today to answer a lot of what was said/asked ...I'll start with a comment optimist made from his personal experience and the conclusion he draws.
"I think the only reason there are aboriginals in custody is that they are repeat violent offenders who mainly are in there because they think it's their right to repeatedly bash their women.
I understand that they had a rough time but life is what it is and there is a lot of support for indigenous people to find their place in an ever crowded globe."
it sounds like you have suffered at the hands of some violent individual aboriginal behaviour and then have concluded from their behaviour that al aboriginals who have been incinerated deserve everything they get because of what you suffered......and you now have said they have the right to repeatedly bash their women.......Optimist I am truly sorry for what you suffered , but it seems you think that all incarcerated Aboriginals are in prison because of violent behaviour....and do you think there is any problems in Australian Society with Blokes bashing their wives and kids?
One thing that has certainly contributed to a loss of culture and identity is...here we go.......the Stolen generation, where it's possible that some of the crimes that were perpetuated against you could have been a result of one of the darkest periods in Australias history.....
when you read "https://www.theage.com.au/national/western-australia/kimberley-suicide-r............
If I based my opinions on my personal experiences , I would hate and be a very bitter twisted human being towards whitemen......but I won't blame everybody for the actions of a few!
The problem with whitefellas is that they are drunks and they bash their women.
"The problem with whitefellas is that they are drunks and they bash their women."
it would be interesting to do a study on all low socioeconomic areas and see if the percentage of drunks and domestic violence amongst whitefellas is similar as a block proportion to the percentage of aboriginal people that live in low socioeconomic areas...
I suspect it may well be
which isn't to say these things don't happen in wealthier communities... they are just masked by the ability of those people to be... let's say... more 'functioning'...
it would also be most interesting to do a similar study on the percentage of whitefellas children who experience trauma / neglect and the outcomes, versus the percentage of aboriginal who experience similar childhoods
aboriginal kids in care is a national shame, but so is the number whitefella kids in care. a really complex problem that has only increased with the advent of a new breed of 'recreational drugs'... and some rather mandatory policies that can be a bit trigger happy
which kind of takes me back to brutus' point about elders being listened to. I would argue that this has been government policy for quite some time now, decades even, and many communities were making real progress getting on top of grog issues ...then the meth came... which added a new dynamic and complexity to the management and policing of all communities
that shit is a scourge
Sypkan...."if you think we can embrace china as our new overlords, and they'll be more caring and facilittating to an oz aboriginal culture preserved utopia.. im sorry, but you are delusional"
I didn't say embrace China , but reality /facts tell us that China is now a World power , we rely heavily on made in China, we criticize them because of their treatment of minority groups...am I delusional when I say that in Australia we do the same but on a smaller level.....refugee camps/treatment of indigenous peoples( facts such as youth suicide and incarceration levels , being disproportionate to population) war crimes..........if tomorrow China stopped all it's exports to Australia....we would be a basket case.....
Indo you made a comment about scenarios about adoption......not sure about going down this rabbit hole ,as there are very serious issues with adopted people and the lack of connection they end up having their whole lives...not a good example!
Sypkan.....yeah there has/is the scourge of Alcohol/Ice/Weed.........do you know much about the sugar epidemic in Indigenous communities?
Brutus, it was just an observation. My community and charity work over many years connected me with all Australians. I’ve seen it all because I was connected. If I had my way there would be a living wage for everyone with no work and everyone would have a job assigned that they fitted into well until they chose a different path of employment or non welfare lifestyle. Everyone indigenous or not , does well when connected into some type of work which in turn develops your personal vision that takes you forward. Regarding the law I’ve never pressed charges against anyone who wronged me or passed judgement but have been fascinated by how easy Koori people get it in court and how well their legal defence operates in modern times. I still believe you have to forget the past and don’t try to chase what was, but only chase what could be. I was thinking today wouldn’t it be nice to own the land my ancestors owned up and to a few hundred years ago. I’d have island properties overlooking the Mediterranean and a massive sheep farm near Bathurst. So much potential for aboriginal and us imported aussies to do well and live their dreams but the past has to be left there. Our indigenous people were no doubt among some of the worst treated and most displaced people on earth but I really think our modern governments have been trying to make life better for them and open up avenues for a better life, but when I hear my next door neighbour through the fence ranting while sitting around the fire with a few of his friends about how he is not going to let his half white kids go to a white mans college it really breaks my heart....his girlfriend seems nice and so do his kids but he has decided their future already.....the hate starts again in just another repeat cycle.
optimist , wow " I still believe you have to forget the past and don’t try to chase what was, but only chase what could be. I was thinking today wouldn’t it be nice to own the land my ancestors owned up and to a few hundred years ago. I’d have island properties overlooking the Mediterranean and a massive sheep farm near Bathurst."
It's pretty amazing to forget the past......when we are still learning about the past and the cause and effect that the past has on today and the future. History is constantly changing as new facts come to light....then, there's a book that was written 2000 years ago.....would you say it's lessons /stories be forgotten and don't chase the past?
I think it's interesting to see how you think ownership is relevant for our First peoples ,and that your idea of what you could own today , I believe is only relevant to our western society......in a 50000+year old culture , I hear the words , custodianship and stewardship.......as our times of ownership on this planet is a mere blink of the eye relative to time!
Recognition of Indigenous people is important as they were the First humans in Oz . More place names suggested by Blowin is a good example .Anything that gives makes them rights as First citizens is fraught with danger and will never be supported by the majority of Australians . There a full aborigines going all the way to a tiny drop of aboriginal blood ( add all the box tickers as well ) .
The Stolen Generation issue is a HUGE problem ! It has been proved ( in court ) it was not a Federal or State government policy . The numbers a hugely inflated . All abusive parents that have their child taken away would believe they were stolen from them . The worry about this issue prevents social workers taking children from toxic and abusive parents . They are forced to wait too long and then it is way too late . I also believe that the problems are WAY under reported in most cultures .
Protecting children is THE MOST IMPORTANT objective imo .
Solutions need to focus on protection and education . Subsides to promote/create more aboriginal police , social workers , teachers , doctors , nurses etc and then incentives to work in their communities will help . Help them to achieve and dream ( not have nightmares ) . To contribute ! Maybe restarting conscription for ALL teenagers ?
Our tax laws are silly . Every income earner should have the pleasure of contributing . At the moment if someone earns $18k they pay no tax . They should pay some , say 5% ( or less ). Individuals should not pay more than companies ( 30% v 49% top rate ) . We all pay the GST . Tax on human vices is ALWAYS a favourite of ALL governments and should be reduced dramatically or stopped . Eg smokes , booze , betting etc . Stop trying to make people do what YOU think is right . Let them judge the consequences of what they do through education . How does a person receiving benefits or a pensioner who smokes a pack a day find $350 per week ? Buy not feeding themselves or their dependents . No wonder chop chop is thriving .
Throwing money to reduce social problems in Aboriginal communities is not working . The more money , the more problems .
Brutus, some good points there and I like the custodian title thing. Next time I'm down your way I would like to visit you and discuss this further over a carton of "type 2 friendly" pale ale and a good old Hawaiian style arm wrestle.
brutus wrote:Indo you made a comment about scenarios about adoption......not sure about going down this rabbit hole ,as there are very serious issues with adopted people and the lack of connection they end up having their whole lives...not a good example!
Hi Brutus, Sorry you must have either read my post wrong or someone else mentioned the idea and you have mistaken it for me, as i havent mentioned adoption in this thread and pretty sure nothing i cut and pasted from articles went there, I remember it being discussed on the forums years ago but even then I dont think i brought forward much of an opinion, I try to stay clear of the whole topic and stolen generation, i just think its way to complex, plus i get the feeling that maybe you have some personal experience in this area hence i would feel uncomfortable having too much of a view on the topic.
I dont see eye to eye on many things with yourself, but i still have a deep respect for you, not just because you are a well respected craftsman, but i just find you interesting in that you are a very well lived person and i also respect the fact that you are real open and honest about lots of things here including your demons.
brutus wrote:Sypkan.....yeah there has/is the scourge of Alcohol/Ice/Weed.........do you know much about the sugar epidemic in Indigenous communities?
I havent read or heard much about this, but you see this in lots of communities in developing countries too.
Lots of pacific islands and also Indonesia, you should see the kids teeth in places like Telos and Mentawais, young kids and teeth are rotten, their diets are so bad sometimes a little fish then lots of rice and sago, and then just sweets in any and every form, and surprisingly a real lack of fruit and vegetables.
Kids teeth are very often a mess of rotten teeth at a very early age, maybe baby teeth seem to be easier to rot out?
As older teens etc teeth aren't real great but don't seem as bad?
It doesn't seem to be as much of issue in teens to old people, its going to be interesting to see if these kids grow up have problems in this area you would expect they might sugar is pretty addictive, but Indonesians also have different views on adults eating sweets(lollies) and ice creams etc, they see it as something only kids do, my wife's parents think im like a big kid as love how cheap ice creams are in Indonesian and often buy them.
Source: https://australianstogether.org.au/discover/australian-history/a-white-a...
'White superiority
This approach was founded on the assumption of black inferiority and white superiority. The assimilation approach was outlined at the Initial Conference of Commonwealth and State Aboriginal Authorities in 1937:
"This Conference believes that the destiny of the natives of aboriginal origin (sic), but not of the full blood, lies in their ultimate absorption by the people of the Commonwealth, and it therefore recommends that all efforts be directed to that end...The policy of the Commonwealth is to do everything possible to convert the half-caste into a white citizen.” [1]
Assimilation policies presumed that Indigenous Australians could enjoy the same standard of living as white Australians if they adopted European customs and beliefs and were absorbed into white society:
“The policy of assimilation means in the view of all Australian governments that all Aborigines and part-Aborigines are expected eventually to attain the same manner of living as other Australians and to live as members of a single Australian community enjoying the same rights and privileges, accepting the same responsibilities, observing the same customs and influenced by the same beliefs, hopes and loyalties as other Australians.” [2]
However, in practice, assimilation further undermined Indigenous identity and culture and justified the dispossession of Indigenous people and the removal of Indigenous children from their parents. According to leading Indigenous academic, Professor Michael Dodson,
“Assimilation relied on the well-established and widely-accepted view that we were inferior to white Australians, that our way of life, our culture and our languages were substandard... Embedded within the policy of assimilation was a clear expectation of the cultural extinction of Indigenous peoples.” [3]'
I was just reading Optimist's post above about letting the past go. I think the reason we're here having this conversation is because we've let the past go, for as long as we have. This conversation is uncomfortable, because it means confronting the past. And the past isn't pretty. We're all in some way linked to the past. Thought this above article was a good reminder of the past and why the present needs addressing.
Amata community 400 people consume 40,000 litres of soft drink a year....shiit
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-05/that-sugar-film-filmmaker-shares-...
That's some kinda assimilation eh Udo. Heavy!
hutchy..."The Stolen Generation issue is a HUGE problem ! It has been proved ( in court ) it was not a Federal or State government policy . The numbers a hugely inflated . All abusive parents that have their child taken away would believe they were stolen from them . The worry about this issue prevents social workers taking children from toxic and abusive parents . They are forced to wait too long and then it is way too late . I also believe that the problems are WAY under reported in most cultures ."
not even close , this is a really toxic subject ....but to say kids were taken off their parents because they has abusive parents is just not true ....there was a planned genocide of culture , in trying to make black kids white......I have way too many first hand stories of the abuse that occurred , the results of separation from culture and family , the abuse on the missions etc......as Indo says " he stays away from the stolen generation issue as it's complex."
ever heard of Yvonne Goolagong...she was hidden under the bed everytime the social workers came to get her.....kids were taken......and I think a lot of what we have been talking about here in relation to the current issues our First nations people are facing...the elephant in the room is the Stolen generation , as so may of those kids are still alive, and live with the trauma....
it was me that mentioned adoption, and I was thinking of a particular case, and nothing to do with the policies mentioned above, ...not to diminish the heaviness and stupidity of the above policy, but sometimes it does happen under the same circumstances it happens in white society, ie. with the best of intentions for all, and not forced
yeh, brutus well aware of the sugar / junk food problems. I've worked near and around various communities in various capacities, without actually being in them, but close enough to see all the crap in the local shops. and the pricing that makes fruit and vegetables inhibitive to say the least.
looking at udo's numbers initially, i got a bit shocked and high horsey... but really, it's not that bad, 40 000 litres is 100 litres per person per year, which equates to less than one can of soft drink a day. I see plenty of white kids drinking way more than that, with their supersized meals and $1 frozen cokes...
but yeh, it's more complicated than that, and certainly not a good thing
but what do you do?
really, it's about the choices people make, and culture and education
there's no going back to paternalism, well maybe... and the road forward is a rocky one, especially with all the temptations of the modern world...
but I must say, there's some dodgy shit going down with who and how a lot of those remote community stores are run, with definitely not the best interests of the communities at heart
it seems a pooling of resources and communal camp kitchens could be a good solution... but a can of coke and packet of chips would still be pretty tempting...
I agree it is a sensitive issue Brutus but you are wrong . In all cultures there are abusive parents and children ARE taken from toxic situations . Hundreds of thousands . I am also sure toxic parents/families would naturally say their kids were taken/stolen as it was rarely their fault .Look up the disgusting stats on sexual abuse . I am also sure in is way under reported in ALL cultures . Maybe those you speak to have not looked up the official record of the courts that asked if this was government policy and to say it was an attempt at genocide is insulting to our country and proven to be false .
Removing children from abusive families ( not always parents ) makes me question a fundamental belief that you are innocent until proven guilty . Children's lives are so important that I worry we are waiting way too long before taking action .
So many more children are having to live with the trauma of physical and mental abuse than were stolen . I am not trying to dismiss ( and never said it did not happen ) the belief and trauma of the stolen generation just trying to highlight that this issue needs to be confronted for all the children of all colours that are being abused .
Udo....I actually saw a film (still googling to find it) about 5 years ago , where a community was devastated by sugar , as they just couldn't work out why they were getting sick and dying in their early 30's....people were drinking 5 litres of Coke a day with sweets....they never considered that Coke was poison....as why would you make something like that?
I remember a young bloke at his local cemetery talking about all his dead friends and the whole Diabetes II curse in their community......I think now there are sugar and alcohol free communities.....
I recently found out I had Diabetes II, and the Dr I see worked for 8 yrs in Qld in Indigenous communities...it broke his heart at the end because the Govt provided him with a brand new Land Cruiser , and boxes of printed matter on how to deal with diabetes including diet plans etc.......but it was all useless as it was too hard for them to understand...si he started employing local women to translate , and explain why excess sugar is bad.......he got into trouble because he went outside the Govt's framework...so small fortunes were spent with virtually no impact....but everybody profited from the sale of cars/printers and of course the people who sold eg all the coke , I think more than a million litres of sugary drinks is sold pa. to communities....then who makes the money off alcohol sales?
Hutchy 19 wrote:I agree it is a sensitive issue Brutus but you are wrong . In all cultures there are abusive parents and children ARE taken from toxic situations . Hundreds of thousands . I am also sure toxic parents/families would naturally say their kids were taken/stolen as it was rarely their fault .Look up the disgusting stats on sexual abuse . I am also sure in is way under reported in ALL cultures . Maybe those you speak to have not looked up the official record of the courts that asked if this was government policy and to say it was an attempt at genocide is insulting to our country and proven to be false .
Removing children from abusive families ( not always parents ) makes me question a fundamental belief that you are innocent until proven guilty . Children's lives are so important that I worry we are waiting way too long before taking action .
So many more children are having to live with the trauma of physical and mental abuse than were stolen . I am not trying to dismiss ( and never said it did not happen ) the belief and trauma of the stolen generation just trying to highlight that this issue needs to be confronted for all the children of all colours that are being abused .
Hutchy, I am not wrong....how much have you studied the Stolen generation....?
Udo and BD, go have a look for Weston A Price's "Nutrition And Physical Degeneration" - all the answers are there.
I think you are both right (not referring to the legalities)
but talking about two totally different periods of time...
sypkan wrote:it was me that mentioned adoption, and I was thinking of a particular case, and nothing to do with the policies mentioned above, ...not to diminish the heaviness and stupidity of the above policy, but sometimes it does happen under the same circumstances it happens in white society, ie. with the best of intentions for all, and not forced
yeh, brutus well aware of the sugar / junk food problems. I've worked near and around various communities in various capacities, without actually being in them, but close enough to see all the crap in the local shops. and the pricing that makes fruit and vegetables inhibitive to say the least.
looking at udo's numbers initially, i got a bit shocked and high horsey... but really, it's not that bad, 40 000 litres is 100 litres per person per year, which equates to less than one can of soft drink a day. I see plenty of white kids drinking way more than that, with their supersized meals and $1 frozen cokes...
but yeh, it's more complicated than that, and certainly not a good thing
but what do you do?
really, it's about the choices people make, and culture and education
there's no going back to paternalism, well maybe... and the road forward is a rocky one, especially with all the temptations of the modern world...
but I must say, there's some dodgy shit going down with who and how a lot of those remote community stores are run, with definitely not the best interests of the communities at heart
it seems a pooling of resources and communal camp kitchens could be a good solution... but a can of coke and packet of chips would still be pretty tempting...
Sypkan....the whole adoption issue is not a good one to use as an example , as I am not sure if you fully understand what happens when you get older and the questions start and never end....actually let's leave this one alone.....it's a very emotional issue and no real answers....just pain....I am adopted!
Hi Brutus, Sorry you must have either read my post wrong or someone else mentioned the idea and you have mistaken it for me, as i havent mentioned adoption in this thread and pretty sure nothing i cut and pasted from articles went there, I remember it being discussed on the forums years ago but even then I dont think i brought forward much of an opinion, I try to stay clear of the whole topic and stolen generation, i just think its way to complex, plus i get the feeling that maybe you have some personal experience in this area hence i would feel uncomfortable having too much of a view on the topic.
I dont see eye to eye on many things with yourself, but i still have a deep respect for you, not just because you are a well respected craftsman, but i just find you interesting in that you are a very well lived person and i also respect the fact that you are real open and honest about lots of things here including your demons.
yeah Indo , got it wrong , had a senior moment , or as I like to call it , fossilization...LOL.....
The whole adoption thing is pretty sensitive as I am going thru some very heavy shit at the moment......will leave it alone..
I am even hesitant about the Stolen generation issue , as a lot of very heavy shit with friends who suffered the consequences of being displaced and taken to missions, but I think it's very relevant to todays problems ...enough for today...thanx for the kind words I know I get pretty fired up......and just hope we all learn something....positive...as the world right now seems to be yelling at each other , and no-ones listening....I have never seen the world so full of fear and angry!
Maybe tomorrow?
fair enough brutus, but I'll just say the example I was thinking of was very close to me, and no doubt had lots of questions too
but every case is different for each person, and everyone deals with it differently
Hutchy 19 quite surprised you're not aware of the reality of the stolen generation.
Personally know several older generation Indigenous crew who were part of it, some no longer with us. It was/is very real. Definitely would recommend putting some time into checking it out. Plenty of crew out there to talk to still alive that would be willing to share their experiences.
Thanks VJ. for headsup.
I am very passionate about what I believe is a national disgrace . The social problems suffered by our Indigenous people . Please feel free to point out what do think is incorrect in my post and am happy to debate . Look at the official court decision on the issue of government policy genocide . If you want to let me know why you think it was wrong I am happy to debate debate . Please try and do some research first .
Do you think it is wrong to remove any child or women from a toxic situation ? Do you really think it does not happen ? Do you think it is logical to assume that it is easier to say to a child that old relatives were stolen than say the removed due to abuse ?
All cultures are prone to abuse and violence . I always knew that there was violence in hunter gather societies as they had to protect their areas as others also wanted to find new sources of food . It is a natural response . It happens with all primates , lions etc etc . I was distressed to read in an above post the historical record of females head trauma in aboriginal societies . Maybe it happened in other hunter gather societies , I don't know .
It has made me realise that it is not only children but also women who need to escape from abuse which is traumatic . We need to have the processes to help this happen !!!!
The whole issue of what to do to help our brothers and sisters in Indigenous communities is complex . To avoid one of the elephants in the room IS wrong and will not help us help them .
'toxic' is a broad stroke. It's definitions may have been adapted to fit a policy.
Not discrediting real abuse that resulted in suffering. Worth considering who the 'toxic' label is coming from and what agenda it may have been serving.
Blue Diamond . I sincerely apologise that my obviously poorly worded posts have made you feel I have minimised the pain and resentment felt regarding the stolen generation . Not my intention . Was trying to highlight that children and women need to be rescued urgently today and in the future . Good luck on your VERY noble cause .
Going by your posts Hutchy 19, I think we both have the same idea of VERY noble causes, but might be at odds with the details and the empirical data available as well as from the very horses mouths.
I have as much to learn as anyone...there's 200+ years of evidence and stories to pour over. It aint gonna happen over night!! I know as much as you. Probably less. My perspective comes from the knowledge and experience i've acquired. Its neither right nor wrong to yours but it's a different perspective and something to add to the collective. I learn from you. You learn from me. The conversation is enhanced. That's why it was started.
Anyway, I applaud anyone supporting those who are suffering unneccesarily so keep it up. And i apologise if it seemed arrogant or offhand. Wasn't my intention but it's easy to drop the ball in the language used on these forums.
bluediamond wrote:Going by your posts Hutchy 19, I think we both have the same idea of VERY noble causes, but might be at odds with the details and the empirical data available as well as from the very horses mouths.
I have as much to learn as anyone...there's 200+ years of evidence and stories to pour over. It aint gonna happen over night!! I know as much as you. Probably less. My perspective comes from the knowledge and experience i've acquired. Its neither right nor wrong to yours but it's a different perspective and something to add to the collective. I learn from you. You learn from me. The conversation is enhanced. That's why it was started.
Anyway, I applaud anyone supporting those who are suffering unneccesarily so keep it up. And i apologise if it seemed arrogant or offhand. Wasn't my intention but it's easy to drop the ball in the language used on these forums.
Landmark decision....https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/territory-stolen-generations-...
Brutus
If you limit your research to The Age you will get a one sided view .
Justice Janine Pritchard in the WA Supreme Court on December 20 rejected claims that from 1958-79 there was any official program in WA to implement the so-called Stolen Generation policy. Her judgment dismissed damages claims by the Aboriginal Don and Sylvia Collard and seven of their 14 children removed or made state wards. She specifically dealt with a claim that the children were removed “pursuant to a policy of assimilation of aboriginal children.” She found the children were instead removed, mainly to Sister Kate’s in Perth, to safeguard their physical welfare. This is the twentieth case in State, Federal and High Courts involving significant Stolen Generations claims, and the nineteenth to see the claims thrown out. Justice Pritchard found: “The references to ‘assimilation’ in the evidence I have set out above are not sufficient to support a finding on the balance of probabilities that at the time of the wardships there was, within the Department of Native Welfare or the Child Welfare Department, the pursuit of a policy of assimilation of aboriginal people into white Australian society through the wardship of aboriginal children..."
It was Christmas 50 years ago when Joe Trevorrow left his hut of scrap iron and sacks on the Coorong to ask his neighbours - relatives of his partner, Thora - to drive his sick baby to Adelaide’s children’s hospital... Who knows what Thora’s relatives told the doctors, but the hospital’s notes say the baby, Bruce Trevorrow, was a “neglected child - without parents”, suffering from “malnutrition” and “infective diarrhoea“‘. The notes add: “The other two children are neglected. Mother has cleared out and father is boozing.” This is the baby that just two weeks later was given to an Adelaide family.. Unforgiveably, Joe and Thora were never asked for permission to give away their baby. .. As [Justice"> Gray ruled: “Mrs Angas [the welfare worker who gave away the baby"> may have been well-intentioned ... but was well aware, or ought to have been aware, that the removal of the plaintiff from his family, and his placement with the Davies family, was undertaken in circumstances that were understood to be without legal authority, beyond power and contrary to authoritative legal advice.”... The picture the judge paints over many pages is compelling: South Australia never had any laws—or policies - authorising anyone to steal Aboriginal children for racist reasons. Gray noted, for instance, that in 1923, as South Australia passed a law to help neglected Aboriginal children, the then treasurer assured Parliament: “The dictates of humanity forbid the state to deprive mothers of their infant children in cases where their mothers desire to keep them.”
https://aiatsis.gov.au/sites/default/files/research_pub/cunneenc-grixj-d...
I hope these help ! If you need more reference sites let me know .
Yeah just heard this on the radio @brutus.
Well there's alot in there to unpack. The money to victims of the stolen generation can and will be viewed in alot of different ways. While it's something, it's scratching the surface of the years of pain endured.
The language used by the Prime Minister, as usual was way off and shows how out of touch he is with the why's.
Hopefully some burdens are eased for those affected. Landmark indeed. Will be interesting to watch this space in the media over the coming days and weeks.
Hutchy , the article I posted was just news and that there has been recognition of the stolen generation , and that there would be payments from the federal Govt made to soem of the affected persons....sorry to say that in WA , I would not trust any of the judiciary , one of the most racists place I have lived!
Brutus . When you graduate from kindergarten I will be happy to debate with you .
The article you posted was not just news of recognition of the stolen generation . It said :
Handed down in 1997, the report referenced harrowing stories of grief, loss, and survival, and it accused governments across Australia of committing genocide and perpetuating an intergenerational cycle of trauma.
An absolute disgrace !!!! The item I posted CLEARLY said :
She specifically dealt with a claim that the children were removed “pursuant to a policy of assimilation of aboriginal children.” She found the children were instead removed, mainly to Sister Kate’s in Perth, to safeguard their physical welfare. This is the twentieth case in State, Federal and High Courts involving significant Stolen Generations claims, and the nineteenth to see the claims thrown out. Justice Pritchard found: “
WA does have problems with racism . How do you come to the ridiculous view that their judiciary is racist . How can you accuse this Supreme Court justice of being a racist . WTF do you know about her !!!! The article I posted referred to State AND Federal cases ( not just WA ).
Be a man and be prepared to change a view if new information is provided . From the same article .
"The picture the judge paints over many pages is compelling: South Australia never had any laws—or policies - authorising anyone to steal Aboriginal children for racist reasons. Gray noted, for instance, that in 1923, as South Australia passed a law to help neglected Aboriginal children, the then treasurer assured Parliament: “The dictates of humanity forbid the state to deprive mothers of their infant children in cases where their mothers desire to keep them.”
Your ,and others , lack of a considered view , disrespect for facts and willingness to shout your shit in a forums like this is a MAJOR reason why Australia's indigenous women and children will continue to suffer terrible trauma .
You should be , but I bet you are not , ashamed of yourself .
Just wait till the Yella fella takes us over.
White fella and Black fella alike will be fkd!
Brutus - I doubt you have done any basic research before or after my post . Here is an introduction to Justice Prichard who you were happy to discredit .
https://www.mediastatements.wa.gov.au/Pages/McGowan/2019/04/Justice-Prit...
Your name is perfect . Brutus , son of Sevilia ( she was one of Rome's shrewdest and most ruthless political women and had a long affair with Caesar ) . An extremely wealth man ( mostly inherited from Servilia's brother who was probably killed by Servilia so Brutus could get the money ). An absolute snake in the grass . Was given clemency by Caesar after fighting ( couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag ) for being on the loosing side in the civil war and goes on to stab him , literally , in the back .
As I said , you have chosen the PERFECT name .
Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x
The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.
Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.
Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.
The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.
Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??
Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28
References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28