The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
brutus wrote:Indo.....I think we are at an impasse.....as we have a different philosophy on life in regards to money and power vs spirituality........or one could call spirituality , intrinsic joy and happiness in life.
when you say " without employment that provides real purpose of life." we are at different ends of the spectrum.......employment is the purpose in life , defines a whiteman's failed approach to what's important in life.....
First peoples in remote communities have had to suffer whitemans approach to them....give them housing /food etc and they should be happy......they have suffered thru alcohol and sugar diet...stolen generation , disrespect for their culture , systemic racism....one would like to think that with the discussions we are having now , actually brings the issues out , try asking blackfellas what they want and stop telling them what you think they need!
In the recent Wadjemup/Rottnest Comp Uncle Lenny ( Elder) was asked what features of whitemans culture would you take onboard into your culture....the answer was....nothing!
Surely you can agree having purpose in life is super super important for mental health.
You must have read my post above with the three different points?
What do you think of that view?
Before white fella Aboriginal people 100% had purpose, their minds were continually active, survival was the goal, hunting, gathering, sharing stories and laughs with each other like over the hunt and the one that got away, song and dance, ceremonies, just simple things like crafting hunting tools. (if you have ever got into fishing you would know the satisfaction there is in just getting your fishing gear, rigs all set up the night before, and the joy of anticipation, as surfers we have the same thing in anticipation of a new swell etc)
Women traditionally always have an advantage over men because raising children is a job within itself and keeps the mind active.
In this day and age for those in remote communities this need to survive has been taken away, the government provides the basics that are needed, im not saying they shouldn't, but its a problem, being on the dole for years when younger i myself went through a similar thing were everything was given and my life lost purpose and i developed mental health problems and my life became more about looking forward to getting on the piss than anything else, yeah surfing kind of helped give purpose, but only to a certain extent, over the years i found myself surfing less and partying more, i had became trapped in a welfare dependency trap.
Some people can keep the mind active through an interest like art or other activity especially those that really get absorbed by things, but not everyone can, again women have the advantage of raising children (yeah sure in 2021 it should be a combined thing, but lets be honest in most cases its not even in the modern living, women do more than men) not everyone in these societies have this issue, but many do and many medicate or find escape through things like alcohol or even drugs, which make problems ten times worse.
This issue is not one limited to Aboriginal communities, its one seen anywhere where people dont have much purpose, generally low social economic communities, if we swapped places with those in remote communities, in time we would develop similar issues.
Like it or not, most peoples minds are active through work and then most people have long and short term goals to work towards, so in general employment is really the only viable solution, the big problem is how do your provide meaningful employment for all these people in these communities???
I don't think you can, hence sadly i don't think the problems will ever be solved.
PS. bluediamond Will try to reply to your post latter today.
Indo , your premise that blackfellas were occupied with survival , aren't we all??
their survival as you mentioned incorporated another part of their survival , which was spirituality and an understanding that they were part of the land and were/are custodians that work with nature and are a part of nature....the Dreamtime stories of spirits, and the creation of Blackfellas environment ....they were all one.....this evolved over 50000 years....
we on the other hand conquer nature , compete for the lands resources ,and we see ownership as a fundamental right of the individual......even as a western man, I struggle with the whole idea of ownership , especially land and our Toys that only seem to make things worse for the future......
I understand how when Blackfellas are forced to Kow Tow to western society's values , that there is a cultural spiritual loss of connection.....with what I believe is a much superior to Westerners culture......
I posted a link that shows things are still getting worse for our Indigenous people...so far the remedies proposed by our society are failing.....so when you say " I don't think the problems will ever be solved."......to me that means lack of hope and will to deal with the issues....but first you have to see it from their perspective , not yours!
Lack of hope breeds hopelessness/mental issues/and in the end suicide....so I can't accept there is no hope with the current issues......we just need people to understand history ,and to be part of the solution....or you are the problem!
I think you’ll find that the Abrahamic religions, which have dominated western society for the last Millenia, centred on the belief that their God created everything and that everything and everyone was God’s work. They also believed that God created man and supplied the Earth and all its resources to further human society. The deeply felt spiritually of Westerners- only racists seperate societies by skin colour- which dominated most aspects of their society and lives, mirrored the depth of spirituality of Australian indigenous society.
Both interpretations of spirituality had their positive and negatives. Relativism of the spiritualities is subjective and the temptation to claim the superiority of either is an act of infinite reductionism leading to …..more subjectivity.
As with any human ideology , even spirituality, the most regular perversion of its purity is the flawed human condition present to a degree in every human who’s ever walked the planet.
"I think you’ll find that the Abrahamic religions, which have dominated western society for the last Millenia, centred on the belief that their God created everything and that everything and everyone was God’s work. They also believed that God created man and supplied the Earth and all its resources to further human society. The deeply felt spiritually of Westerners- only racists seperate societies by skin colour- which dominated most aspects of their society and lives, mirrored the depth of spirituality of Australian indigenous society.
Both interpretations of spirituality had their positive and negatives. Relativism of the spiritualities is subjective and the temptation to claim the superiority of either is an act of infinite reductionism leading to …..more subjectivity.
As with any human ideology , even spirituality, the most regular perversion of its purity is the flawed human condition present to a degree in every human who’s ever walked the planet."
totally agree with the problems of claiming the superiority of one form of spirituality over another... not to mention presenting subjective interpretations as fact...
however, brutus' point lies in what you have written
"...centred on the belief that their God created everything and that everything and everyone was God’s work. They also believed that God created man and supplied the Earth and all its resources to further human society...."
the belief that god created all - in abundance - for man to toil, use, and manipulate to further human society. with man at the centre of this creation as god's chosen species ....which kind of gives man a free pass to use and consume as he sees fit...
one could argue this is a rather limited interprrtation, and abrahamic religions also have lessons to not poo in one's own nest...
one could also argue this freed up man, and encouraged the rapid developments and technologies we are all now beneficaries of ...for better or worse...
but it is quite a different perspective to what brutus wrote
"...which was spirituality and an understanding that they were part of the land and were/are custodians that work with nature and are a part of nature....the Dreamtime stories of spirits, and the creation of Blackfellas environment ....they were all one.....this evolved over 50000 years....
we on the other hand conquer nature , compete for the lands resources ,and we see ownership as a fundamental right of the individual......even as a western man, I struggle with the whole idea of ownership..."
They also believed that God created man and supplied the Earth and all its resources to further human society. The deeply felt spiritually of Westerners- only racists seperate societies by skin colour- which dominated most aspects of their society and lives, mirrored the depth of spirituality of Australian indigenous society. when you say ,"
If you are referring to Christianity and the Gospels , there is no reference that God supplied the Earth and all it's resources to further human society .
Only racists separate societies by skin color.....well that's what we are talking about here is the racism that was associated with Colonialism and the lingering hangover from the "good Old days!"
we are still experiencing and living with our past behaviour .......so far our solutions to the Indigenous issues that our Western culture had tried , have failed....so much money has been spent on Westerners trying to fix the issues from our perspective.....it's time to call BS , and try asking from our nations First Peoples what do you need and want??
one could ague endlessly, subjectively... which spirituality / culture is more superior...
personally, I'll take a bit from columm A and a bit from column B
Brutus, Ive got all the time in the world for anyone who earns my respect and don't give a rats about what colour God painted them but when I hear about the amount of poor aboriginals in custody that annoys me a bit. I don't know how much of a bad arse you need to be to get locked up if your a Koori fella but it must be pretty friggin bad. My youngest son was beaten near to death one night with a lump of wood until the Aboriginal guy saw he had the wrong man...full facial reconstruction nearly died...The guy got 5 weeks community service...didnt turn up...Another time 2 aboriginals were fighting on my front verandah at a house I owned while I was at work...didn't know them, they freaked my wife out and it cost me $10,000 in losses..no charges laid....Recently, an aboriginal man smashed his way through my window, freaked my wife out at 4am I chased him off, he had done 5 houses that night the same , finger prints everywhere, got the phone call from the police a few weeks later... we have to drop the charges for insufficient evidence..is that OK with you...I said whatever and hung up.....
I think the only reason there are aboriginals in custody is that they are repeat violent offenders who mainly are in there because they think it's their right to repeatedly bash their women.
I understand that they had a rough time but life is what it is and there is a lot of support for indigenous people to find their place in an ever crowded globe.
@brutus wrote "..even as a western man, I struggle with the whole idea of ownership , especially land and our Toys that only seem to make things worse for the future......
I understand how when Blackfellas are forced to Kow Tow to western society's values , that there is a cultural spiritual loss of connection.....with what I believe is a much superior to Westerners culture....."
I think that would be worth reading a few times over and reflecting on for everyone. Spot on in my opinion Brutus.
That whole 'No Ownership' thing has been tried a few times. You could read Solzhenitsyn's The Gulag Archipelago for an example of how it ends.
"@brutus wrote "..even as a western man, I struggle with the whole idea of ownership , especially land and our Toys that only seem to make things worse for the future......
I understand how when Blackfellas are forced to Kow Tow to western society's values , that there is a cultural spiritual loss of connection.....with what I believe is a much superior to Westerners culture....."
I think that would be worth reading a few times over and reflecting on for everyone. Spot on in my opinion Brutus."
you think that is much different for whitefellas?
sure seems to be a lot of miserableness amongst our culture, ...our current culture of abundance and consumerism...
our whitefella culture loosely based around the abrahamic religions, that borrowed and stole a lot of belief and ritual from paganism, ...that developed from animism... which takes us right back to very similar beliefs systems to aboriginal people...
I think a lot of people feel a lot of loss and helplessness in our modern ways, even if they are thriving in that environment. most people can see there must be a better way, ...that a lot of what we do is rather arbitrary, pointless and meaningless, ...all in the mysterious 'pursuit of happiness'... but they get on with it, because we are given little choice... and if you don't get on with it, you get left behind, ...way behind, really quickly... think house prices for example... trust me I know, I have taken time out from time to time, and the world just a races on along without you... it doesn't care...
a (part) blackfella can grow up in an adoption situation, totally ignorant of their history, get educated in western ways and culture, and thrive and do ok in that environmet, they may feel a bit of the helplessness we all feel from time to time, that I describe above, and attribute it to; overworked... underpayed... lack of connection... lack of spirituality... lack of wife/husband/child... all sorts of things...
a (part) blackfella can grow up with blackfella family, aware of their history, get educated in western ways and culture, be totally aware of their shit socioeconomic situation, do ok, but not particularly good, see hopelessness all around them - black and white - and struggle along, dropping in and out of secure work, and the general shit opportunities surrounding them... and no doubt they'll feel some of the same hopelessness as the adopted aboriginal as well above.. what will they attribute it to?
given the ever present current surrounding narrative, what are they most likely to attribute it to?
I think it's obvious, ...but it's not neccesarily true, ...especially in contemporary oz, as it is actually very difficult to identify anyone's heritage...
my point is the system sucks, it's a stacked deck no matter your background. but most crew just get on with it given little choice
yes there is racism, and the above scenario is not true for remote communities or people who are obviously almost full blood or whatever the polite term is this week... but there are other opportunities in that situation, no not nearly enough, so I'm certainly not dismissing the problem, but that's not the point I'm making
yes our system seriously needs some work, its failing many people, it's flawed, and is a lemon that has run out of juice, ...hence trump, brexit, yellow vests, and shorten losing the unelectable... general instability everywhere...
but I'm not seeing any good ideas or viable alternatives from those that want to attribute everything to racism. I'm totally on board with our oz brand of very socialist capitalism, that is unfortunately slowing diminishing... fastly actually...
but when I look at stuff like blm, and antifa, and their like minded ilk in oz, who constantly rave about 'structural racism' and 'white supremecy' blah blah blah, ...yet never bother, or even are capable of explaining them, or anything else, I think what are you proposing?
it seems they've got nothing... their answer is tear it all down and start again, ...with some rainbow powered socialist utopia... which again, they never explain, or even seem to have any understanding of what that actually entails...
chaz maybe?
yep, no problem, give more power and autonomy to blackfellas, I'm cool with that, but someone, anyone, please please explain your plan / hopes / dreams that don't involve returning to a subsistance lifestyle, ...at a time where the rest of the world rockets ahead in this very uncertain and dangerous era of new and globalised power shifts
you really think china is going to respect your... 'never ceded sovereignty'?
you thiink china is going to facilitate your anti fascist fascist ip rainbow revolution?
well yeh, they will... it's called utilising useful idiots...
viable solutions please
and a few explanations...
Interesting you posted that link Udo. As a grom, we used to go to my grandparents house at Lake Tyers for holidays and you could see the community across the lake. I guess that was my first contact with Aboriginals, not in person, but in the pointing out that they're across there, we're over here and that's how it is. This is back in the 80'. I remember being completely mystified by why this was so. And also curious as to what went on over there, how were they living. Why were they there? Thanks for sharing the video.
Sypkan, i thought that was a really thought provoking post. Cheers for sharing. There's alot in that to unpack so i'll probably read it a few times but i do get the gist of where you're coming from. I guess, when it comes to solutions, i think it always seems to end up back at education. Not so much for non Indigenous, we should be able to educate ourselves with our freewill. Indigenous education. I haven't got any links at moment but i can look them up, but i do recall hearing about a program that was getting young indigenous crew back in touch with their culture and their education system was more heavily weighted to that, than to the current one that has been in place for the period of white settlement.
There were clear positive results in the change of behaviour, attitude and intellectual output from what i remember hearing. So when you ask about change, i think alot of the 'freeing up' of Indigenous society starts right there. An education system that isn't based in traditional Western culture, but still takes some parts of it that can be of use. But an education system that enhances the feeling of belonging to a strong, rich nation that has been here for, well maybe 80,000 years now.
Having that education system (i hate using the word system but it will do) in place for indigenous youth can only help have a positive flow on effect, so that as a collective, culture and wisdom can be shared without the feeling of being 'forced' into a Western Culture from the time they're kids.
Again, my ramblings are just thoughts, i'm sure they're flawed but i see this as one of the best starting points for change.
There's a similar theme to this in that 'In my Blood it Runs' doco. I was baffled afterwards that a 10year old can coherently piece together a captivating documentary, yet fail miserably at the Australian education system. That struck me as an opportunity for us to learn something out of. Really recommend a watch if you haven't seen it.
I reckon one of the most powerful ways to connect the modern Australian and blackfella cultures is through inclusion of more indigenous words and names throughout our language. I know that whenever I’m talking to a recently arrived person in Australia, whether they immigrant or tourist, and they drop a bit of Aussie slang into their proper English I feel that they appreciate a bit of Australia.
Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.
Yarndi, gidgee, bangarra. Get into it!
Couldn't agree more Blowin. I reckon that would be a great start.
FFS where does this wankfest end?
brutus wrote:Indo , your premise that blackfellas were occupied with survival , aren't we all??
their survival as you mentioned incorporated another part of their survival , which was spirituality and an understanding that they were part of the land and were/are custodians that work with nature and are a part of nature....the Dreamtime stories of spirits, and the creation of Blackfellas environment ....they were all one.....this evolved over 50000 years....
we on the other hand conquer nature , compete for the lands resources ,and we see ownership as a fundamental right of the individual......even as a western man, I struggle with the whole idea of ownership , especially land and our Toys that only seem to make things worse for the future......
I understand how when Blackfellas are forced to Kow Tow to western society's values , that there is a cultural spiritual loss of connection.....with what I believe is a much superior to Westerners culture......
I posted a link that shows things are still getting worse for our Indigenous people...so far the remedies proposed by our society are failing.....so when you say " I don't think the problems will ever be solved."......to me that means lack of hope and will to deal with the issues....but first you have to see it from their perspective , not yours!
Lack of hope breeds hopelessness/mental issues/and in the end suicide....so I can't accept there is no hope with the current issues......we just need people to understand history ,and to be part of the solution....or you are the problem!
We are all occupied with survival to a certain extent, but there is a huge difference between what life would have been like back then and now for idgenous people in remote communities, they are polar opposites.
Back then if you didn't continually work towards getting a meal with your tribe you didnt get one and a lot of time they would have been spent on moving around and building shelter in the places they camped, a lot of time and energy was put into survival, keeping body and mind active and healthy.
100% they could have gone on like this to the end of the world, hard life compared to what we live, but yeah okay they knew nothing different.
These days the government gives money for food and accommodation, its not comparable at all in survival, that type of survival doesn't keep your body and mind active and healthy.
Yeah i mentioned how important the spiritual aspect was in keeping things together in my three points, its point number two i called it "faith" yeah in a sense white fella could learn from indigenous people or from other cultures about this aspect, although im not religious, i do acknowledge that faith or belief in something more does help society and individuals in many ways, i wish i could have faith, but i dont know i just cant.
I dont think its about if western system being more superior or not, its more that i think realistically outside of a hunter gather lifestyle, its the only realistic system (i guess you could argue for communism or hard socialism, but hey lets not even go there)
BTW. To call it a western system is not true anyway, ownership and a settled life style is how 99% of the world live.
Personally i dont think we can be part of the solution until we are being completely honest about what the problem is, to me thats a huge problem.
brutus wrote:..so far our solutions to the Indigenous issues that our Western culture had tried , have failed....so much money has been spent on Westerners trying to fix the issues from our perspective.....it's time to call BS , and try asking from our nations First Peoples what do you need and want??
That line is almost becoming a cliche these days, to me its a cop out.
1. Do you really believe that community and leaders havent been consulted, off course they have, the reality is though that they also share all kinds of different views and ideas on solutions, there is also organisations and people run by indigenous people that deal with different problem areas.
2. If the solution was so easy and didn't include meaningful employment, then it also shouldn't be something that needs money or funding.
3. We are all humans, even if we have differences in general we share much much more in common, the idea that somebody needs to be white to find solutions in white society or black to find solutions in a black society is BS.
4. I can bet good money an indigenous community where the majority have meaningful employment and access to decent education and health care have very little issues. (god im sounding like a lefty with that line)
D-Rex- You asking for permission to stop?
I thought you’d have rubbed that little man fair out of his canoe long before now.
Feel free to make a worthwhile contribution D Rex.
See my multitude of previous posts on similar issues for your elucidation, bluey - I know you've got a file on me, shouldn't be too hard to locate. Blowie, can't you see you've fallen hook, line and sinker for bluey's latest attempt to sell his already debunked case? Smarten-up big guy.
ahh. I see. No worries. If at any point you want to explain WHY this is a wankfest the floor is yours D REX
Blowin wrote:I reckon one of the most powerful ways to connect the modern Australian and blackfella cultures is through inclusion of more indigenous words and names throughout our language. I know that whenever I’m talking to a recently arrived person in Australia, whether they immigrant or tourist, and they drop a bit of Aussie slang into their proper English I feel that they appreciate a bit of Australia.
Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.
Yarndi, gidgee, bangarra. Get into it!
Absolutely, Uluru, Mandjoogoordap, much prefer the local indigenous names.
@indo wrote 'Although pre white fella ingenious culture was patriarchal society with high levels of violence, these three things would have held things together and kept things in order and check..'
and one day later,....
@indo wrote 'Before white fella Aboriginal people 100% had purpose, their minds were continually active, survival was the goal, hunting, gathering, sharing stories and laughs with each other like over the hunt and the one that got away, song and dance, ceremonies, just simple things like crafting hunting tools. (if you have ever got into fishing you would know the satisfaction there is in just getting your fishing gear, rigs all set up the night before, and the joy of anticipation, as surfers we have the same thing in anticipation of a new swell etc)"
Indo mate, I gotta admit. I'm confused. How can you post two polar opposite posts two days apart. The first being loaded with assumption and inuendo against a race of people. I've asked you 2, or maybe 3 times now for links or evidence to this and you've just ignored me. Mate, i want to hear you from your heart, but when i read these two contrasting posts, i just don't know what to make of your position. I say this with a sincere heart. If you are spouting random unverifiable facts on something so important....then damn...how do i believe anything you say??
Would really love to see some links and facts about the violence you speak of and how it was substantially different to that of any other culture. Also would be interested where these accounts come from considering there was minimal accounts of Indigenous Australia pre.....here's that word again..invasion.
Hope you can help me out with some evidence Indo because if not, it really puts your whole motives into question. Thanks!
Blowin wrote:I reckon one of the most powerful ways to connect the modern Australian and blackfella cultures is through inclusion of more indigenous words and names throughout our language.
Couldn’t agree more Blowin. Also shows respect, like when you go to Europe and learn a bit of Italian, German, Spanish, French.
I use indigenous words all the time. Coogee - stinking seaweed. Maroubra (Murahborah) - big winds. Ninginah - shut up. Useful words. ;-)
@bluediamond
Okay, yes im a bit apprehensive to dive too deep into this area, because people can read into things wrong, thinking im demonising Indigenous people or culture and you get people and comments like Sheep Shager
All groups of people have their issues, all cultures have positives and negative aspects, even in our own society today we still have problems especially in regard to equality of sexes domestic violence is a problem for us, but the reailty is in indigenous community's its a huge issue women are said to suffer domestic violence at a rate of 38 to 80 times that of other women in Australia https://theconversation.com/factcheck-qanda-are-indigenous-women-34-80-t...
If you want to believe explanations for this that are popular and even mentioned in this article, well hey thats up to you, but honestly i dont think people are being honest.
There is much evidence that Indigenous culture is very patriarchal women could even be killed for seeing a mens ceremony or something sacred women weren't suppose to see, this doesn't just disappear overnight, its no coincidence in remote communities where people still live on country and where the influence of the west is minimal where the culture is still the strongest is where women suffer the most.
All cultures would have started very patriarchal based as we have physical differences, men generally stronger so were the hunters and protectors, women stayed closer to camp and looked after children and did less physical work. (hence why even classic western society follows these patterns)
Basically in the past especially in roots style cultures, strength was king and strength was power.
In regard to there being high levels of violence, okay its hard to say how high the levels were, most dont believe there was the levels of domestic violence seen today, as mentioned in my previous post, men had purpose they were busy hunting and providing and there is the two other aspects i mentioned that held things together faith & Structure, and alcohol was very limited (it did exist apparently in some areas) alcohol and drugs as we know are like adding petrol to a fire.
We know tribes fought at times over women & resources, boundary's, there is even physical evidence of this in shields, you dont need a shield when hunting only when protecting yourself from a human with a weapon.
Disputes were generally solved with violence, tribal law, payback even the creative spirits websites talks about these things (off course its going to paint things in a nice as possible light, but i dont want to provide all conservative media type links)
https://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/law/tribal-punishment...
There is other areas of violence that kind of would have sucked if you were on the end of it, like a witch doctor (Kurdaitcha) thinking you were the reason a young person died because of some sign in nature pointed to you, so you were killed, when in reality the person had died for some natural reason not understood back then, like cancer for instance. (many tribes didn't belevie n natural deaths other than old age)
Then things like cannabalism were practised in some areas https://espace.library.uq.edu.au/data/UQ_242712/Qld_heritage_v1_no7_1967...
Anyway there is books and studies on the topic of linking pre colonial aboginal violence to violence seen today.
Here is a few articles:
"Violence the way of traditional life"
"IN his address to the National Press Club in 2003, Mick Dodson claimed that "violence is not and never was part of Aboriginal tradition ... We have no cultural traditions based on humiliation, degradation, and violation. Let me make this point abundantly clear. Most of the violence, if not all, that Aboriginal communities are experiencing today [is] not part of Aboriginal tradition or culture."
That denies the reality. Pre-contact Aboriginal society was very violent, and that violence and the cultural norms that sustained it continue to generate the extreme levels of violence in today's remote communities.
There is little point in criticising traditional Aboriginal Australia, unless traditions pose dangers for today's Aborigines, and unless we incorporate this reality into policy responses.
Despite considerable evidence that pre-contact Aboriginal Australia had high levels of violence, and that traditional norms concerning violence still operate, policy distortion continues because of a resistance to consider traditional norms of violence.
Even among intellectuals such as Joan Kimm and Louis Nowra, who have bravely pointed to pre-contact origins of today's high rate of Aboriginal violence, evoking the policy implications is resisted.
To secure a less violent, more positive future for Aborigines, today's restrictive conditions on inquiry and policy need to end.
The particularly high level of violence against women in pre-contact Aboriginal Australia can no longer be denied. First-contact explorers and colonists noted with distress the terrible scars and bruises that marked the women due to the frequent brutality of their menfolk.
Stephen Webb's palaeopathology studies of cranial and post-cranial remains verify that before European arrival, violence against Aboriginal women was prevalent across the mainland continent, with women suffering significantly more cranial injuries than men.
The level of Aboriginal violence particularly against women remains shocking. In 2004-05 across four states where records were kept, "indigenous females were 44.1 times more likely to be hospitalised for assault than non-Indigenous females".
Continued here https://www.news.com.au/news/violence-the-way-of-traditional-life/news-s...
Another article on the topic, that goes into great depth, but i will just take the bit on evidence on bone samples, hard physical evidence.
"The long history of Aboriginal violence"
"Paleopathologist Stephen Webb in 1995 published his analysis of 4500 individuals’ bones from mainland Australia going back 50,000 years. (Priceless bone collections at the time were being officially handed over to Aboriginal communities for re-burial, which stopped follow-up studies).[15] Webb found highly disproportionate rates of injuries and fractures to women’s skulls, with the injuries suggesting deliberate attack and often attacks from behind, perhaps in domestic squabbles. In the tropics, for example, female head-injury frequency was about 20-33%, versus 6.5-26% for males.
The most extreme results were on the south coast, from Swanport and Adelaide, with female cranial trauma rates as high as 40-44% — two to four times the rate of male cranial trauma. In desert and south coast areas, 5-6% of female skulls had three separate head injuries, and 11-12% had two injuries.
Web could not rule out women-on-women attacks but thought them less probable. The high rate of injuries to female heads was the reverse of results from studies of other peoples.[16] His findings, according to anthropologist Peter Sutton, confirm that serious armed assaults were common in Australia over thousands of years prior to conquest. [17]"
https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/bennelong-papers/2013/05/the-long-bloody...
sypkan, a lot in your post, so will try to cover at least some of it...
First we have to admit there is a problem before you find a solution.
At present we are still dealing with the facts of our history , and the issues that have arisen from past ........as I posted today, in the last year youth suicide and incarceration have increased over the last 12 mths....this is an indicator that somethings wrong.........
So what can we do to change the issues........not do the same thing again where we keep making the same mistakes over and over again expecting a different result.....Einstien made that statement which proves stupidity/insanity in his opinion.......
So we need to completely change our approach , consult with the elders , so that every program/process goes by a First Peoples Elders board.
Your point about returning to a subsistence existence , is valid....as how many people now Globally live on the poverty line while we milk what's left ......and would be so happy to live on a subsistence based lifestyle....it's the Western values that tell you to have a job , get a mortgage and that you are judged by the things you have , and not by your well being /joy and happiness.
No Rainbow Utopia.....as Western values are taking us to the brink of collapse ......so how do you measure success ??
So far the western Governments have failed miserably with their indigenous people......that's why to me BLM is an important tool that brings hope thru recognition of the inequalities that still exist , and make people there is a problem...
As far as China goes ,I have no problem with their ideology , it's totalitarian ......but they have been able to bring 800m of their citizens out of poverty in 10 years........whereas Western Society/Culture is doing the opposite!
I am going to have to get back to work and some projects that I am doing ...so will take me longer to answer now......but let's continue and see what we can learn from each other!
Brutus, Black Lives Matter is a Neo-Marxist organisation (their words, not mine), and China is a totalitarian communist regime.
If you don't have any problems with those, then I suggest you read up on 20th century history.
Optimist wrote:I think the only reason there are aboriginals in custody is that they are repeat violent offenders.
Notwithstanding your experiences Optimist, in the bigger cities where most indigenous incarceration occurs, there is ample evidence that the majority of past incarcerations have been for drinking, public drunkenness. There are legal movements afoot to have public drunkenness taken off the statute books. Apart from that, they have been locked up for spitting, swearing, not buying a train ticket. Literally, and in disproportionate numbers to other nationalities.
@IB,
I don't have any real problems with the latter. If you view social issues through an economic lens then call yourself whatever you want, but you're a Marxist.
Over and over we're told to do just that, to eschew the cultural viewpoint, as that leads to the dead end of Identity Politics, but we're also told Marxism is bad...mmmmkay?
Marxism isn't a fixed ideology but has many points to step on or off. Like, if you simply think there should be greater social equality (economic equality) and that should be achieved through govt policy then you're advocating for a form of Marxism.
Maybe not a big surprise to you, however when I read those quotes about BLM founders I wonder about the lack of context.
Stu, that's reductionism ad absurdum.
@Indo wrote “ Before white fella Aboriginal people 100% had purpose,”
It’s good that you wrote ‘purpose’ here Indo, but in other parts you seem to conflate ‘purpose’ and ‘work’. I’d like to take up that idea a bit, paint maybe a picture that is different to one that everyone else has.
It is often assumed that indigenous cultures, or even pre-industrial western cultures were consumed with work, having to dig and scrape constantly to get their next meal. “Most lives were nasty, brutish and short” said someone.
There is a different take on that, that prior to western intervention the indigenous communities worked maybe 15 hours a week. In a sense, they didn’t work at all. Do you consider fishing as work? Setting manageable fires to a patchwork of land? Who doesn’t like starting fires? Hunting for kangaroo in a group with your elders, with your kids? Doesn’t sound like work to me.
In Yuval Noah Harari’s book ‘Sapiens’, one of the things that most interested me was that before agriculture again it is estimated that people worked around, you guessed it, 15 hours a week. The world was abundant, it wasn’t hard to get a feed. His premise goes into a most interesting dimension then, where he posits that agriculture didn’t free humans from hard yakka, it introduced it and enslaved them. Even pre-industrial England and the concept of ‘The Commons’ saw people working about, hmm, 15 hours a week. It’s a pretty common theme from different sources.
The idea of purpose is much broader and a better concept. Purpose can come from many things, but for most it is tied up in one’s sense and place in community.
I suspect the indigenous had it in spades prior to arrival/invasion. I very much doubt they led lives that were nasty, brutish and short. I also take issue with Indo’s assumption that aboriginal culture was violent prior to arrival/invasion. I would doubt you could offer any anthropological evidence of that, and what I have read tends towards the opposite. Communities with strong authority figures, elders, and strong culture, have much reduced violence compared to all others.
And how are we going on violence? It’s pretty endemic. And if you think our system of justice is less violent I would guess you are equating violence with physical violence. Ever talked to anyone who has spent time in gaol? Even if they aren’t in a particularly unsafe prison, the sheer psychological violence of being locked up for 23 hours a day is nothing to sneer at. Just ask a Sydneysider at the moment, or a Melbournian last year.
Or those fark knuckle demonstrators.
@IB,
Can you explain how or why? Like any political philosophy it has a spectrum, and as academics the BLM founders would have had to identify themselves as being in a certain camp, but without necessarily saying to what degree, a move that's rife for misunderstanding as that camp is demonised, sometimes by people who inadvertently wish for the same outcome - the Oz has had some cracker oped pieces lately that are Marxist in everything but name.
Anyway, point being, just because they said they were Marxist means SFA in my books. They could've said they were for greater class equality and it'd have exactly same meaning but without the trigger word.
Further on that, I was forcibly retired last year. My life without work is far from purposeless. I prefer to think of it as having less chains around my ankles. Work is drudgery.
Like it or not Batfink work provides purpose for most humans and work doesn't need to be a negative thing many people love what they do.
I did note many people can find purpose in other activities and interest like art for example, but many dont, i regularly met retired people who font know what to do with themselves even go back to working even if just part time.
Btw. I totally question how much time and effort it woul take as a huter gather, my friends in remote indo islands spend all day trying to get fish or octopus etc and often cone up short, then when there is times of bad weather etc its even harder.
BTW. In regard to BLM despite rasing billions of dollars and having a very high profile, can anyone actually, see anything positive they have done???
I can only see division and destruction and one self proclaimed marxist who seems more like a capitalist with a property portfolio worth millions and all within majority white communities.
Oh and how is this crazy idea of defunding police going?
Would have to be up there as one of the craziest ideas in the history of man kind.
indo-dreaming wrote:Oh and how is this crazy idea of defunding police going?
Would have to be up there as one of the craziest ideas in the history of man kind.
You, surprise surprise, don't understand the concept, and probably think it means abolishing police altogether.
Stu, I thought it was like saying “anything to the left of Ayn Rand is Marxist”. Hence the reductionist ad absurdum.
And Neo Marxism is all about Culture Wars and Critical Theory, so very VERY much Identity Politics.
And maybe I’m hyper sensitive, but if an organisation proudly identifies as Marxist, then they either have no clue about what Marxism did (old mate did pen the Communist Manifesto after all), or they are so far out in a limb as to be classified as evil.
Hope that at least clarified what I meant.
Brutus said -“ it's the Western values that tell you to have a job , get a mortgage and that you are judged by the things you have , and not by your well being /joy and happiness.
No Rainbow Utopia.....as Western values are taking us to the brink of collapse ......so how do you measure success ??
So far the western Governments have failed miserably with their indigenous people......that's why to me BLM is an important tool that brings hope thru recognition of the inequalities that still exist , and make people there is a problem...
As far as China goes ,I have no problem with their ideology , it's totalitarian ......but they have been able to bring 800m of their citizens out of poverty in 10 years........whereas Western Society/Culture is doing the opposite!“
Huh? He has no problem with Chinese ideology even though it’s even more competitive and cutthroat than western culture? It’s more driven by career success too. Brutus seems to have an anti-western bias. How else to explain the reticence to acknowledge that virtually every society on the planet leads the modern consumer lifestyle. India, Middle East, Russia, South America and most of Africa. It’s not a Western cultural trait, it’s a modern cultural trait.
indo-dreaming wrote:BTW. In regard to BLM despite rasing billions of dollars and having a very high profile, can anyone actually, see anything positive they have done???
I can only see division and destruction and one self proclaimed marxist who seems more like a capitalist with a property portfolio worth millions and all within majority white communities.
Oh and how is this crazy idea of defunding police going?
Would have to be up there as one of the craziest ideas in the history of man kind.
Indo..there's a crazy mad Indigenous Australian , who gave his years salary to BLM.....he also started an Indigenous academy in Australia.....he's one of those BLM people who you might consider as bringing division, destruction and a lack of positivity.....his name is Paddy Mills.....
what you see and look for are examples that support your position on an issue , like BLM..??
Indo. BLM surely is predominantly an American thing. The idea certainly has relevance in OZ but the reality as I see it is BLM has become an aggressive, often violent movement. It just doesn't fit as well here.
From a privileged white male perspective I have no experience or any clue really what other races go through. But causes/movements like BLM seem to grow so big that they lose the core values they were founded on.
Same could probably be said of political parties. Both Lab and Lib and maybe Greens I reckon are in a different place than the ideals the founders established them on.
Batfink- You seem to be labouring under the false impression that subsistence lifestyles are universally experienced under utopian conditions of perfect abundance, where no one ever gets sick, injured or born with a disability. Indigenous Australians died of starvation and thirst, violence and conditions the modern society considers an inconvenience ie blindness.
15 hours of work a week may be possible under perfect conditions but let’s not kid ourselves that such conditions were reliable in a land of drought and flooding rains.
blowin....."Huh? He has no problem with Chinese ideology even though it’s even more competitive and cutthroat than western culture? It’s more driven by career success too. Brutus seems to have an anti-western bias. How else to explain the reticence to acknowledge that virtually every society on the planet leads the modern consumer lifestyle. India, Middle East, Russia, South America and most of Africa. It’s not a Western cultural trait, it’s a modern cultural trait."
I don't have a western Bias , but when you look at Capitalism , which I think we can agree is a Western economic product ......which you rightfully say is based on consumerism ......it is a complete and utter failure....as you point out India/Russia/ME countries/South america....all have a goal , including China, of the great capitalist dream that we live as does Europe /USA/Canada etc........they all want a nice big Mc Mansion, 2 cars free medical, retirement pension and work maybe 30 hrs a week....
Do you think there are enough resources left on the planet that 8b people can be lifted out of poverty....any idea on what resources that would take?
"...it has a spectrum, and as academics the BLM founders would have had to identify themselves as being in a certain camp, but without necessarily saying to what degree, a move that's rife for misunderstanding as that camp is demonised, sometimes by people who inadvertently wish for the same outcome - the Oz has had some cracker oped pieces lately that are Marxist in everything but name."
yeh well, it seems there's marxism... and then there's 'marxism'...
Cacadajy wrote:Indo. BLM surely is predominantly an American thing. The idea certainly has relevance in OZ but the reality as I see it is BLM has become an aggressive, often violent movement. It just doesn't fit as well here.
From a privileged white male perspective I have no experience or any clue really what other races go through. But causes/movements like BLM seem to grow so big that they lose the core values they were founded on.Same could probably be said of political parties. Both Lab and Lib and maybe Greens I reckon are in a different place than the ideals the founders established them on.
Yeah agree i think these type of movements start of with good intentions and as Brutus has pointed out good people often get involved in them, but they often clearly loose track once they gain momentum.
BLM other belief of dismantling the traditional family unit was another crazy idea.
Pretty much all communities anywhere in the world with big problems have a high rate of fatherless children.
"...But causes/movements like BLM seem to grow so big that they lose the core values they were founded on."
so, they grown from 'neo-marxist' communists... abhored by racism, slavery etc...
to multi million dollar property barons, sponsored by corporations and slave labour...
yep, they certainly did 'grow'
Sypxan.. You may have missed the point I was trying to make.
That is that a movements "growth" or popularity or success seems to take them further away (in each direction) from the ideals on which they were formed. i.e. they get corrupted some way.
It has nothing to do with neo Marxist communist, slavery etc. Purely an observation that the growth of any movement seems to result in some shift in ideals.
With success comes compromise?
Brutus said: “ I don't have a western Bias , but when you look at Capitalism , which I think we can agree is a Western economic product ......which you rightfully say is based on consumerism .....”
Yeah, nah. China has been using currency of one form or another for almost 5000 years. Middle East and Africa has been enslaving people to maximise profits for longer. Polynesians used shells to store wealth and killed each other for territory- the original greed of me and mine before you and yours!
Most cultures moved away from subsistence thousands of years ago. As soon as you move away from subsistence you can store wealth = greed. It’s not a western thing, it’s a human thing. I’m guessing you probably don’t want to consider the extreme likelihood that Indigenous Australians killed each other over land do you? Here’s something to think about- the shields and war clubs weren’t for when they were fighting kangaroos.
You ever stopped to wonder why there’s 200 different aboriginal nations and not just one United peoples?
"...As far as China goes ,I have no problem with their ideology , it's totalitarian ......but they have been able to bring 800m of their citizens out of poverty in 10 years........whereas Western Society/Culture is doing the opposite!“
yes it's an impressive achievement
but at what costs?
pretty sure the uyghers aren't overly overly joyed with thier 'out of poverty' prison camp meals...
the tibetans must love their land and zen culture being 'invaded'...
and who's paying for this surge out of poverty anyway?
we are, as we further enrich billionaires like bezos and a heap of other dubious corporations and tech. giants as they drain money from weatern work forces...
if you think we can embrace china as our new overlords, and they'll be more caring and facilittating to an oz aboriginal culture preserved utopia.. im sorry, but you are delusional
Interesting that co founder of BLM Patrisse Cullors who describes herself as a trained Marxist decided to step down as leader recently when it was discovered she owned four houses.... isn’t the world a silly place.
Fortunately, unlike America, we spend around 30.3 billion a year on our indigenous Aussies which is around $55,000 per person but we need to get them busy doing stuff they like to do and stuff that is productive as well as community inclusive. When we employed local Koori people in our charity projects they did well, had fun and were good workers too. Time for everyone to get busy because idle hands......
Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x
The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.
Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.
Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.
The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.
Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??
Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28
References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28