The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Brutus, VicLocal and others: as you supported the BLM protests, I’m interested on your thoughts on recent anti lockdown protests and the way the police reacted with full support of politicians.
Michael Adam wrote:Brutus, VicLocal and others: as you supported the BLM protests, I’m interested on your thoughts on recent anti lockdown protests and the way the police reacted with full support of politicians.
I see no real relationship between BLM and the anti-lockdown/anti vaxer mob.
One is about racism the other about health issues.
I really don't like what the police did to some of the demonstrators , and some of the police should be charged and removed from the force.
I really don't like how some of the protestors got violent , and worst of all attacking health workers was one of the lowest things I have seen.
Michael Adam wrote:Brutus, VicLocal and others: as you supported the BLM protests, I’m interested on your thoughts on recent anti lockdown protests and the way the police reacted with full support of politicians.
I see no real relationship between BLM and the anti-lockdown/anti vaxer mob.
One is about racism the other about health issues.
I really don't like what the police did to some of the demonstrators , and some of the police should be charged and removed from the force.
I really don't like how some of the protestors got violent , and worst of all attacking health workers was one of the lowest things I have seen.
Talk about historic injustice.
The premiers/police response to each matter is telling.
GuySmiley wrote:Hutchy & Info the conjoined imbeciles constantly splashing down the shallow end of the gene pool. Infinite ignorance. #there’salwaysanothercomment
You have added zero to this conversation, just sideline snipes.
Michael Adam wrote:Talk about historic injustice.
The premiers/police response to each matter is telling.
did you read the Paddy Mills article?
Now there's real injustice!
Regarding the BLM protest to allow them to go ahead during Covid both from a federal position and state position was extremely reckless, if it was any other protest it would never had happened.
To be fair though, if it happened now i dont think it would be the same i think they would prevent them from going ahead, but you can also be certain they would never use the force and methods seen on Anti lockdown protestors or Union related protest.
I read most of the article but once i came to the false misinformation of deaths in custody, i skimmed the rest, pretty much just another sportsmen of colour that has found fame and fortune, and obviously lost touch with the real problems his people face.
Thanks Indo ".I read most of the article but once i came to the false misinformation of deaths in custody, i skimmed the rest, pretty much just another sportsmen of colour that has found fame and fortune, and obviously lost touch with the real problems his people face."
Saves me some time that Brutus keeps wasting . As Brutus posted it I am not surprised with review .
I think Paddy is a basketballer . Sports people and actors are not often a source I turn to for valuable information ( although there are some big exceptions eg Ali ).
You seriously didn't miss much, very cliche type stuff...and yeah very long winded.
Indo - if BLM wanted to protest today , which is their right , and they were treated the same as the tradies it would get VERY violent .
It would not matter to many on SN as they would say it was organised by the far right .
indo-dreaming wrote:Regarding the BLM protest to allow them to go ahead during Covid both from a federal position and state position was extremely reckless, if it was any other protest it would never had happened.
To be fair though, if it happened now i dont think it would be the same i think they would prevent them from going ahead, but you can also be certain they would never use the force and methods seen on Anti lockdown protestors or Union related protest.
I read most of the article but once i came to the false misinformation of deaths in custody, i skimmed the rest, pretty much just another sportsmen of colour that has found fame and fortune, and obviously lost touch with the real problems his people face.
yeah Indo , I can see why you would stop reading the article , as it challenges your colonial beliefs ...so the man who carried the Australian flag at the Olympics ceremony, has showed respect to all people , grown up with a traditional culture donated time money and energy to people less fortunate than himself...........created pathways of education .....
You really are a relic from another era.........very un-Australian, well moving forwards it looks like you are happy with the current Status Quo.....
I really don't get why you bring your vile opinions and bias here....but like hutchy , that's what the right does!
Hutchy , no substance at all , won't even read about Australia's Olympic Flag bearer , and how he has been an incredible example for all Australians....but then Indo and you are pretty well rusted onto the right.....have a very narrow mind and narrow colonialist view of the world....creatures of a bygone era!
Hutchy 19 wrote:Thanks Indo ".I read most of the article but once i came to the false misinformation of deaths in custody, i skimmed the rest, pretty much just another sportsmen of colour that has found fame and fortune, and obviously lost touch with the real problems his people face."
Saves me some time that Brutus keeps wasting . As Brutus posted it I am not surprised with review .
I think Paddy is a basketballer . Sports people and actors are not often a source I turn to for valuable information ( although there are some big exceptions eg Ali ).
indo-dreaming wrote:You seriously didn't miss much, very cliche type stuff...and yeah very long winded.
yeah Indo and he is black and Australian......back to the colonialist grandstand!
Great article Brutus. Thanks for sharing it. Really enjoyed reading his families observations of the way he moved on the court and how it related to animal totems.
Alot to be learnt from that.
Also can't believe he's 6ft!! The NBA is within reach of me!! ha.
Loved reading what Popovich did on Mabo day.
Just on that animal totem thing. I remember the first time i went to Summercloud and saw the local crew surfing there. It was a solid 4-5foot day and the crew that live on the point there were dominating. Just them out. It was the first time i'd seen the same thing i'd seen on the football field....that sixth sense. Was magical to watch and something i've never forgotten.
Definitely a worthy read. Cheers.
@ Brutus
Im not dissing the guy, good on the guy for achieving what he has, I just found the article long winded and pretty much what you would expect from The Age or Guardian, but different strokes for different folks hey.
BTW. This whole us and them colonist every sentence thing is pretty divisive and outdated/backwards, im a born and bred Aussie your a born and bred Aussie i dont see any difference between you and me, i doubt that's how colonist saw things.
@ Brutus
Thanks for the article that was an excellent read great to get the back ground to Patty Mills story what a great Australian.
indo-dreaming wrote:@ Brutus
Im not dissing the guy, good on the guy for achieving what he has, I just found the article long winded and pretty much what you would expect from The Age or Guardian, but different strokes for different folks hey.
BTW. This whole us and them colonist every sentence thing is pretty divisive and outdated/backwards, im a born and bred Aussie your a born and bred Aussie i dont see any difference between you and me, i doubt that's how colonist saw things.
Indo , firstly , as we have discussed before ...some of us have had very different life experiences to you, which gives me no pleasure in revisiting...I see Australia as a young Nation , and our First Nations Peoples as the oldest living culture on Earth.
As we learn more about history , we open our hearts to the past injustices and embrace it , not try and make it irrelevant , by saying" it's just past , nothing to do with me , as it wasn't me"
Oh yeah we are all Australians by birth , but as Australia evolves into a cosmopolitan society we look for and work towards what the national identity is , not what you want it to be.
So you dismiss Paddy as a great Australian, working towards a better Australia because the article was in the Age ...not your style , which is sad....as there's a lot more substance to Paddy than ......well Indo who could you name as someone as respected by most of Australians that is working towards bettering peoples lives through his or her actions especially in reconciliation and being part of the evolution of Australia's identity?
I don't see my views, on colonialism as divisive or outdated/backwards.
the evil history of colonialism is still being understood as there are still remnants of our past colonialism present in Australia today.....the colonial white's only , white Australia policy etc....still affects people today who were alive to experience the racism of the stolen generation ,and it's aftermaths......on ongoing systemic racism , which I know you doesnt think exists ...whereas I have personally experienced racism and see it all the time..
So Indo there really isn't much you and I can talk about when it comes to Australia's indigenous troubles and what is an Australian going to look like in the future...so lets agree to to disagree.....I see someone like Paddy as an amazing example of what Australia could be in the future ..........who would you nominate?
unbelievable , I post to Indo, go to the Age and find an article on Tom Wills a very highly regarded pioneer of indigenous cricketers , he even has his own Statue at the MCG.....well sometimes history catches up with those who write their own.....
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/cricket/history-of-australia-s-first-cri...
Brutus- "the evil history of colonialism is still being understood as there are still remnants of our past colonialism " . You only seem to see the negatives . Imperialism ( Colonisation ) has always been the way of the world . It is THE most positive phenomena that has enabled humanity to progress . Try and get your head around this as it distorts many of your views .
That force lead to Aboriginals moving to Australia ( There were cultures all around the world before they arrived in Oz so NOT the oldest ) . The megafauna would have had very negative views on their arrival but that is the way of the world as I have said .
Tom Wills was a fantastic Australian , spoke many indigenous dialects and did coach the first cricket team to visit England .They were all aboriginal . Invented Aussie Rules so one of my favourite Australians . All the more special as his family was massacred by Aboriginals . He became an alcoholic and committed suicide .
Hey Hutchy, do you think the Belgians ever made a positive contribution to humanity during their foray in the Congo?
I just posted on books about Heart of Darkness .
I think there are many examples of where Imperialism was very bad in the initial stages . Look what happened to the Inca's .
You show your stupid attitude in your attempt at entrapment .
Your ignorance of human history and the part Imperialism has played shows me that you are like your name overthefalls .
If I was as stupid as you I could ask the same question about many other people .
Wow! I didn’t expect that response. My post wasn’t an attempt at entrapment. I was just trying to cultivate some intelligent discourse. Sorry if you took me the wrong way.
Sorry Overthefalls . My mistake as I just saw your post on the books thread . Getting a bit jumpy on this thread .
If you have read HoD you would probably have a much better view on the effects of colonisation of the Condo than I have .
Genghis , Caesar , Alexander , other Kings and Queens , Christians , Muslims etc all caused great suffering . That is how the world has grown to the wonderful planet , dominated by humans , that it is today . Lots of teething problems .
No worries, Hutchy.
Hutchy, my question was just a reply to your claim that colonisation “is THE most positive phenomena that has enabled humanity to progress”.
Overthefalls - There is great book that I can recommend that outlines this view . Sapiens - A Brief History of Humankind , Written by Yuval Noah Harari .
Part Three is called The Unification of Humankind . Imperial Visions is a chapter in this section .
@ Brutus
I think the problem here is we are both focused on different issues.
Myself and many Australians see the main problems Indigenous people face generally in remote and even some regional areas as the real problems and the important issues, intergenerational poverty, high suicide rates, high rates of domestic violence, high crime/incarceration rates, alcohol and drug abuse, low education levels, low school attendance, low rates of employment etc
These are real problems, problems that can be measured and could actually be solved if a truely honest outlook was taken on why these problems exist and if ownership of the problems was also taken.
You and people like Paddy on the other hand dont seem concerned about these issues, but seem more concerned about things like reconciliation or rare cases of racism or believing systems are systemically racist or concerned about what date Australia days is celebrated on, always trying to paint your culture as some culture better than others etc
I guess this is because you and him live a life no different to other Australians (well actually possibly better than most Aussies, but good on you both) and have all the opportunities of other Australians but it seems you still need to feel somehow different in some way to other Australians so you take this, us and them mentality and blame any problems on colonialism.
Blaming any and every problem on colonialism is easy it shifts the responsibility elsewhere, but the reality is all these problems cant be fixed without ownership first, it's real easy to blame others for problems but much harder to go hey, its our problem only we can make a change and a lot of this change must be cultural change, because that's the root of the real problems combined with geographic disadvantage (There will never be jobs or services in whop whop, hence will always be low social economic disadvantage)
But you have written even employment and education off as some evil of the west.
In regards to reconciliation, this is a two way street the reality is Australian society has moved on and changed greatly and makes great efforts to try to close the gap and be inclusive and recognise Aboriginal people and culture, its everywhere from kids school assemblies to AFL grand finals, but all i see at least from the vocal city type Aboriginal is this continual cliche of blaming anything and everything negative on colonialism, ironically most like yourself still happy to live this western culture.
Like i said if the so called western culture is so bad, where are all these Aboriginal people rejecting it and going back trying to live a traditional life?
Anyway it doesn't affect me, but it is sad and annoying watching it play out especially being demonised as some evil colonists because my skin is white and history on this land is much shorter, we can only hope that in the future we get more indigenous people like Jacinta price, Warren Mundine, Anthony Dillion that stand up and say wait a minute we are kidding ourselves these views are self destructive, its time to take ownership of our issues and make the change needed.
Thanks, Hutchy. I’ll check it out.
Overthefalls - A quote from the book .
There are schools of thought and political movements that seek to purge human culture of imperialism , leaving behind what they claim is a pure , authentic civilisation , untainted by sin . These ideologies are at best naive ; at worst they serve as a disingenuous window-dressing for crude nationalism and bigotry ............ All human cultures are at least in part the legacy of empires and imperial civilisations , and no academic or political surgery can cut out the imperial legacies without killing the patient .
Great Post INDO .
I would so hope , like you , we all can help all Aboriginals ( and all other Australians ) move forward with dignity and respect and achieve their undoubted potential .
This is why I have repeatedly asked on this post how we can help reduce the resentments felt by Aboriginals from past actions . Unfortunately I have been accused as being racist and told that there are no resentments .
indo-dreaming wrote:@ Brutus, Indo this will be my last post for awhile ........so I am going to address some of the things you have said which I believe contribute to the problems Australia today , as you see fixing the problems from a western society point of view , which till now has failed miserably.........I don't see the difference in the issues we discuss......
the issue is simple..the recognition and integration of our First Nations Peoples , as the foundation of being an Australian!I think the problem here is we are both focused on different issues.
1)Myself and many Australians see the main problems Indigenous people face generally in remote and even some regional areas as the real problems and the important issues, intergenerational poverty, high suicide rates, high rates of domestic violence, high crime/incarceration rates, alcohol and drug abuse, low education levels, low school attendance, low rates of employment etc
2)These are real problems, problems that can be measured and could actually be solved if a truely honest outlook was taken on why these problems exist and if ownership of the problems was also taken.
3)You and people like Paddy on the other hand dont seem concerned about these issues, but seem more concerned about things like reconciliation or rare cases of racism or believing systems are systemically racist or concerned about what date Australia days is celebrated on, always trying to paint your culture as some culture better than others etc4)I guess this is because you and him live a life no different to other Australians (well actually possibly better than most Aussies, but good on you both) and have all the opportunities of other Australians but it seems you still need to feel somehow different in some way to other Australians so you take this, us and them mentality and blame any problems on colonialism.
5)Blaming any and every problem on colonialism is easy it shifts the responsibility elsewhere, but the reality is all these problems cant be fixed without ownership first, it's real easy to blame others for problems but much harder to go hey, its our problem only we can make a change and a lot of this change must be cultural change, because that's the root of the real problems combined with geographic disadvantage (There will never be jobs or services in whop whop, hence will always be low social economic disadvantage)
6)But you have written even employment and education off as some evil of the west.7) In regards to reconciliation, this is a two way street the reality is Australian society has moved on and changed greatly and makes great efforts to try to close the gap and be inclusive and recognise Aboriginal people and culture, its everywhere from kids school assemblies to AFL grand finals, but all i see at least from the vocal city type Aboriginal is this continual cliche of blaming anything and everything negative on colonialism, ironically most like yourself still happy to live this western culture.
Like i said if the so called western culture is so bad, where are all these Aboriginal people rejecting it and going back trying to live a traditional life?
8)Anyway it doesn't affect me, but it is sad and annoying watching it play out especially being demonised as some evil colonists because my skin is white and history on this land is much shorter, we can only hope that in the future we get more indigenous people like Jacinta price, Warren Mundine, Anthony Dillion that stand up and say wait a minute we are kidding ourselves these views are self destructive, its time to take ownership of our issues and make the change needed.
1) yes there are big problems in remote communitys but you leave out the Indigenous Australians who have been brought up in cities and not had traditional cultural upbringings who have the same problems. as the remote communities.
The fact that there are urban and country indigenous people who now have been in our Western system for 200 years. It has become increasingly obvious that western values and solutions have failed to deliver a better life and better culture for our First Nations Peoples , in fact you could say that's why we are here discussing the failure and solutions.
2) Real problems and an honest look..Indo, that 's why we are having this discussion as you see a bunch of blackfellas claiming victim status , I see amazing blackfellas building bridges , owning their issues and doing something constructive about it.....but as with Paddy, he is doing so much for his people and Australia in general, he is coming from his traditional values and culture, teaching and helping both white/blacks /asians and all Australians , he is an education portal into his peoples culture and he embraces all...he owns it!
3)
Paddy and I .....Paddy has been brought up with his traditional culture , embraces it and teaches anybody and everybody who is interested in Indigenous culture...as you couldn't finish the article on Paddy , because you came across what you consider false information on deaths in custody , you couldn't finsih the article...so you judged Paddy and what he is actually doing with his life based on based on 1/2 read article ......which is an extremely narrow view of the issues and solutions...your comment , " any way it doesn't affect me"....really shows how narrow your view is!
What you describe as " Paddy and I don't seem concerned with all the negative issues " is just plain BS Indo....what you describe is the symptoms of a deeper problem that so far your solutions have failed , so we look a bit deeper into the cause and affect that has brought about the current issues and there is evidence everywhere that treatment of Blackfellas in Australia was horrific , there are still scars being carried..
I will also say again...I have no concrete proof of being Aboriginal , as records and the DNA pool are very light on.....I have previously said I could be chinese or polynesian what ever ....actually would love to be blackfella or Chinese, certainly not Anglo-Saxon......I have been brought up in a middleclass white home , so part of my journey has been the discovery something I see as superior to what I was brought up on...as I was racially vilified in my upbringing , which continued thru my adult life.
4) Colonialism had a very negative affect on our Blackfellas , so as we look back , we can still see a lot of todays racial issues go back to the colonial mindset , and the actions that were carried out until recent times...so the issues/truths of the past are still relevent today as history is always changing as we have seen with Tom Wills, acclaimed indigenous cricket coach , and pioneer of the Aussie Rules......he murdered and was responsible for the massacre of hundred's of Indigenous men women and children ...his accounts now look suspect there are now more facts available to dispel his version . https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-18/suggests-afl-pioneer-tom-wills-pa...
6) how have I written off education and employment , your version is schools and jobs in our society....where I see education as us all learning about Australia's first culture , and employment being , working within culture...not trying to become westernized and get a western job...as it looks like the west/civilization that we have now has peaked , money and power as the basis for a society is doomed from the outset.
7 & 8 ) You think it doesn't affect you...when what we are searching for and evolving towards is a Nation that embraces it's ever changing past history , warts and all...there is no blame or guilt to be had , but recognition that past actions have created ongoing issues today....
Paddy is the real deal , and a quintessential Australian who has put his fame/money and Traditional culture back into the Australian mindset , to help , educate , create, acknowledge , teach ...so he is a National treasure like Kathy/Yvonne etc.....we should all be in this together...that's why I find some of your comments so insulting ....when in fact you just seem to want to move on with your plan, which till now has created more angst and an "us and them" situation!
Brutus - good post . Urban based aboriginals are also having the same problems as all the other colours .
Please let me know if their incarcerations rates , sexual abuse rates etc are as high as the non urbanised people .
You said -"when what we are searching for and evolving towards is a Nation that embraces it's ever changing past history , warts and all...there is no blame or guilt to be had , but recognition that past actions have created ongoing issues today...."
I would say that Indo and definitely me DO embrace our past history and totally recognise the past actions have created the issues of today . We have said sorry and prove with our funding of your people that we a trying to change the issues of today .
What more can we do ?
treaty in Victoria is bringing a History lesson to us all , Hopefully Victoria could lead the way in recognizing our past history , injustices and mass killings/massacres ....
there is NO blame on anyone who accepts that there needs to be a treaty/recognition of first peoples rights and that part of the solution moving forward as Australian....is understand and accept a lot of the colonial heroes of the past.......eg Batman was described as one of the vilest humans in the colony.....
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/a-people-torn-apart-by-blood...
Great Brutus ! All this information should be known about and recognised . If a new treaty helps I am all for it .
As I said above what do we do next to help ? Will this treaty help the Aboriginals problems as saying sorry and spending huge sums doesn't seem to achieved much .
All for changing some place names but what real difference will this make ? Australia needs to do something different as what we have done and are doing now is NOT working . I hope a new treaty helps .
Any suggestions ?
Hutchy.....a treaty means there is official recognition of the First People rights under Westminster law.....and also recognition that they are the first Australians which were dispossessed of their lands and culture by brutal colonialists , and that we all must accept the traditional Blackfella culture as the basis of being Australian.....so just keep reading and learning about being an Australian!
Hutchy 19 wrote:Great Brutus ! All this information should be known about and recognised . If a new treaty helps I am all for it .
As I said above what do we do next to help ? Will this treaty help the Aboriginals problems as saying sorry and spending huge sums doesn't seem to achieved much .
All for changing some place names but what real difference will this make ? Australia needs to do something different as what we have done and are doing now is NOT working . I hope a new treaty helps .
Any suggestions ?
groundswell wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/mar/04/the-killing-times...
just checked the map....Aire River wow.....one of my favourite areas to surf!
I notice that there is still no official massacre at Peterborough....great surf spot, called Massacres ( Now Bonies when the stories were told of why Massacres) ......Aborigines were shot, then burnt onto the point and the thrown into the ocean...more, lots more to come!
groundswell wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/mar/04/the-killing-times...
Another related article for some balance.
"One of the main themes of the Uluru Statement from the Heart is the concept of what the Aboriginal political activists call a Makarrata, which involves a Truth-Telling about our History. A significant part of Truth-Telling is an open discussion about the massacres and killings that occurred between Aboriginal people and the settlers.
Two main web-sites have been set up to document these massacres and killings. One is pioneered by historian Professor Lyndall Ryan at the University of Newcastle, and a second is a more recent, flasher one at the Guardian on-line newspaper, and is also based on Dr Ryan’s original data.
Of course, in keeping with the anti-colonial, ‘let’s denigrate Australia’ narrative commonly found in Academia and the Progressive-Left media today, these two Massacre Maps overwhelmingly detail killings of Aboriginal people by the British and Australian settlers, explorers, police and government forces. Only a handful of the best known massacres carried out by Aborigines on non-Aboriginal people are listed.
To help address this imbalance, and to add our bit to the Truth-Telling process that will inevitably pickup speed over the coming years, we plan to construct three new ‘Massacre and Killing Maps’ and data-bases.
The first is, Aboriginal Inter-tribal Massacres and Killings, which will document all the massacres and killings of Aboriginal people by other Aboriginal peoples. To date we have data on some 200 inter-tribal massacres and killings. As we write-up this data, we will post it on our Aboriginal Inter-tribal Massacres and Killings map below.
Our second map will document, Tribal Aboriginal Massacres and Killings of other Australians. This data base will document the very large number of non-Aboriginal people killed by the Aborigines in a tribal or frontier context. (That is, it will not include killings by Aboriginal people in towns and cities, or in modern times). This Map will be ready for posting in a month or two.
Thirdly, we plan a Massacre Map which will list the, Massacres That Did Not Happen. These ‘phantom’ massacres are often quoted as being ‘fact’ and indeed, there are even several included in Professor Ryan’s and the Guardian’s Massacre Maps, but as we will show, there is no substantial evidence for their occurrence.
Continue here https://www.dark-emu-exposed.org/home/2016/2/6/chairs-for-the-foyer-yrkzx
So you're going with the dark-emu-exposed view of indigenous Australians Indo?
i.e. the so-called "accepted, Australian belief" that -
“[t]hey [the Australian Aborigines] are, of course, nomads — hunters and foragers who grow nothing, build nothing, and stay nowhere long."
It's a pretty outdated, wilfully ignorant view Indo, and it makes you wonder what dark-emu-exposed's agenda is, because it doesn't appear to be looking for much that resembles accuracy or the truth.
And it definitely ain't looking for "balance".
AndyM wrote:So you're going with the dark-emu-exposed view of indigenous Australians Indo?
i.e. the so-called "accepted, Australian belief" that -
“[t]hey [the Australian Aborigines] are, of course, nomads — hunters and foragers who grow nothing, build nothing, and stay nowhere long."
It's a pretty outdated, wilfully ignorant view Indo, and it makes you wonder what dark-emu-exposed's agenda is, because it doesn't appear to be looking for much that resembles accuracy or the truth.
And it definitely ain't looking for "balance".
Judging by that comment i have to assume that you missed the recent media articles and radio podcast etc around the release of a new book "Farmers or Hunter-Gatherers?" by highly respected anthropologist Peter Sutton and archaeologist Keryn Walshe, that also basically debunks the major points of Dark Emu.
Anyway here is a link to get started plenty more articles came out around the time, surprisingly i think even Crikey had one (or some far left rag)
"Anthropologist and archaeologist say Dark Emu was littered with weak evidence and unsourced claims"
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/anthropologist-and-archaeologist...
This is also worth a listen https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/breakfast/book-ignites-deb...
Yeah the 10 minute edit function can be a bit of bummer now hey :P
Brutus and Indo - Thanks for the links .
Defining colonialists as brutal is unfortunate imo Brutus and pigeon holes all your future comments on this issue . I am sure there is brutality on both sides .
Will also check the treaty as am interested in the detail .
Andy - why did you put in the definition of nomads ? I would expect most people to understand that most Aboriginal were nomads . It is want most hunter gatherers do ! You make it seem derogatory . A few of course lived in permanent or semi permanent locations .
Mate I’m aware of all that, I’ve posted about it before.
But if you support a site that claims that Indigenous people “built nothing and stayed nowhere long” then you’re an ignorant troll at best and a racist at worst.
good robust convo. Just catching up on it all. Looks like Hutcho is back with a vengeance. I thought 6 posts in one day about how you were leaving this thread might actually hold some substance hutch.. but here you are again, asking the big questions, insulting, saying sorry, my misunderstanding..rinse, repeat. But hey, good to see you're still here!! But honestly, good conversation. Enjoying hearing and understanding different perspectives. Helps to create a bigger understanding of peoples own experiences and perspectives. This topic and the issues bound within it are not easy to fix. Theres no one post solution...my way is the right way. Its going to take massive communication, compassion and acceptance of the reality of history. This conversation right here, is a good step forward. I humbly applaud all contributors, even u Hutch u mad dog. Its all appreciated especially without the personal attacks. Cheers.
AndyM wrote:Mate I’m aware of all that, I’ve posted about it before.
But if you support a site that claims that Indigenous people “built nothing and stayed nowhere long” then you’re an ignorant troll at best and a racist at worst.
It still seems like you havent read the article or listened to the podcast, listen to the podcast today if you get the chance, i re-listened last night and kind of covers things very well.
The quote you quoted and the site has used is by one of the most respected Australian anthropologist last century that focussed on Aboriginal people and history.
It's obviously used by the site as a slogan, because he was so respected and completely goes against the narrative of Dark Emu, which it's man points are the opposite, the problem is all known history and all evidence goes against this narrative, but still weirdly enough the book was accepted as almost gospel getting all kind of acclaim and awards even supported by ABC and made into a kids book used in schools and anyone that pointed out the inaccuracy of the book was labeled as some far right racist until this year when suddenly even ABC etc started questioning Dark Emus claims.
The reality is Aboriginal people were hunters and gathers that generally did not stay in one place long they moved with the seasons and food sources etc, there is zero evidence of true settlements or true farming the cases of things being built for long term use are very rare and generally fish traps etc
The reality is not racist it's just what it is, actually to claim its something other is to fall into a western mindset of putting a high value on settlement and farming and low value on hunter gatherers society. (this is talked about in the podcast)
Anyway the point of the original link shared, was that the Guardians narrative is not the whole picture, yes colonist killed many Aboriginal people and Aboriginal people also killed colonist, sometimes incited by colonist sometimes incited by Aboriginal's, oh and the link also shows a map of the same type of thing between Aboriginal people and tribes that would have been happening for tens of thousands of years.
Labelling reality as racist because it doesnt fit in with your view point is lazy, its no different to what VL does to you and Blowin when you become vocal about concerns of Australians high immigration rate.
BTW. If you actually read some of the articles from the site, im betting you wouldn't stop at one, there is some very good reads there, some maybe not worth reading too. ( i havent read the any from the last few months though)
Indo , this statement says it all........ "Of course, in keeping with the anti-colonial, ‘let’s denigrate Australia’ narrative commonly found in Academia and the Progressive-Left media today, these two Massacre Maps overwhelmingly detail killings of Aboriginal people by the British and Australian settlers, explorers, police and government forces. Only a handful of the best known massacres carried out by Aborigines on non-Aboriginal people are listed.
To help address this imbalance, and to add our bit to the Truth-Telling process that will inevitably pickup speed over the coming years, we plan to construct three new ‘Massacre and Killing Maps’ and data-bases.
there seems to be a narrative where Right whites love to try discount our colonial past , by saying that the truth of colonialism is denigrating Australia !
As we move forward towards a Treaty , there will be stories/facts that we will learn which is part of who we are today, and yeah if there are massacres of whites , will be great to learn about how why and when whites were massacred .
Instead of dismissing our real history , we all should be just sitting back and learn about our past as is being done now with Yoo-rrook Justice Commission.
I find it sad , but enlightening that we are now facing the reality of our past .
But when I read "Anyway the point of the original link shared, was that the Guardians narrative is not the whole picture, yes colonist killed many Aboriginal people and Aboriginal people also killed colonist, sometimes incited by colonist sometimes incited by Aboriginal's, oh and the link also shows a map of the same type of thing between Aboriginal people and tribes that would have been happening for tens of thousands of years."
I find the above statement counter productive when , when what we are learning about Australia's First peoples is , colonial invaders arrived in Australia and enslaved/murdered/dispossessed/raped the local population.....todays read is about a first hand account from an Aboriginal Lady , 200 years ago ....who talks about how here and her kin folk were treated, a.... https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/kalloongoo-s-story-lays-bare...
@Indo
The thing is, to say that "Aboriginal people were hunters and gathers that generally did not stay in one place long" is not reality.
There's plenty of evidence to the contrary.
Irrefutable evidence.
So when you deny or ignore this, it doesn't reflect well on you, and regurgitating stuff like "to claim its something other is to fall into a western mindset of putting a high value on settlement and farming and low value on hunter gatherers society" gives off a pungent reek of creepy disingenuousness.
The smear campaign of denying any degree of sophistication in Indigenous societies is very transparent.
Again listen to the podcast and send them an email if you think they are wrong, they talk about these points.
The evidence is, you know, set in stone.
"An area near Portland in southwest Victoria has evidence of volcanic stone huts that date back thousands of years. [4] The Gunditjmara Aboriginal people of that area developed an 'aquacultural system' made of fish traps and weirs which is thought to be among the world's oldest, [4] covering an area of 100 square km, thus "dispelling the myth that Australia's Indigenous people were all nomadic". [5]
On the opposite end of Australia, on the Dampier archipelago off Australia’s north-west coast, archeologists found evidence of stone houses dating back 9,000 years. [1] The excavation of the circular stone foundations showed occupation was maintained throughout the ice age, and evidence of human occupation dating back 21,000 years."
https://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/land/aboriginal-houses
indo-dreaming wrote:Again listen to the podcast and send them an email if you think they are wrong, they talk about these points.
Indo , there is no right or wrong , just the facts of the past which are still being discovered ....which is repainting the history of Australia.......
There is a certain irony in the Convict poms who were persecuted in their own country , came to Australia and did much worse to the local indigenous peoples.....sad but true!
Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x
The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.
Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.
Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.
The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.
Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??
Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28
References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28