The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

Thank you udo . A good link which gave me hope for the future . Most religions if practised with respect for all would make the world a better place imo . I am not religious but do believe in a Universal Spirit .

Such a Sad Story
https://www.news.com.au/national/crime/the-loneliest-man-in-america-how-...

Blue Diamond . I have now decided to be as frank as I can . I will use your words " if my ways ( I will use words ) scare you , confront you and make you want to lash out " please look at them " with a "white Australia mentality . Read with an open mind " .
" The White Invaders " ( luckily they were not yellow ) were not the first human invaders . The first Australian humans killed ( I won't call this genocide at it was a natural thing to do ) ALL the Mega Fauna ( the same in North and South America and NZ ) and changed the Flora ( eucalypts made up only 5% of trees before human arrival ) . Can't believe you don't know the answer to the genocide question . For fucks sake I have explained it earlier on but you obviously do not register ( or even read ) what you don't want to hear !!!! Genocide is disgusting , think Jews ! It has been proven in both State and Federal courts that THIS NEVER EVER happened in Australia . I posted links on this that you have chosen to ignore .
Now to the article . The government has created a welfare mentality in many Australians !!! Not just Black . People have the choice to accept welfare or not . All people who accept welfare without trying to contribute suffer . Many welfare recipients would LOVE the opportunity to work and contribute and would go to EXTREME lengths to do so .
From the article .
"But becoming a man carries a lot of respect and dignity that you have to practice. You don’t just talk the talk, you’ve got to walk the walk.
Another elder, Uncle Ossie, concurs with this. He emphasised that a dignified man needs to fulfil three aspects – to provide for your family, protect your family in the community and fulfil your cultural responsibilities."
"The first choice is for Goodes to try and ignore these attempts to put him off his game and not engage with the offending crowd ."
As I have made clear . HE DID NOT DO THIS . It did put him off his game and he DID engage with the crowd !!!
"Another choice – which Goodes has made – is to withdraw from the game temporarily. By doing this Goodes is making a statement that he is a dignified and proud Aboriginal man and doesn’t need to put up with or tolerate this form of racist behaviour."
This again showed that the booing was putting him off his game .
As I have said I am soooo over the Goodes conversation and I am also over your inability to debate this issue without being so condescending . Wake UP . You are not acting noble imo !!!!!!!!!!

on Goodes,How can you ignore that much vitriol?

I feel the same Blue Diamond . I am asking for a truce .
Note to Brutus .
This thread has enabled me to realise a few things . We moved to New Brighton as my father got a job selling land at Ocean Shores .It was an American project and some/many locals did not like it . On my first day at school I was bullied and called Yank , I was 13 ( not 12 ) . This lead to a few fights and over the years , if you win them , you move up the divisions . At 15 I was in a beauty ( nearly half the school was watching ) and broke a bone in my left thumb . Fronted the headmaster and he was forced , due to my injury , to report it . Was eventually told that due to my history I would be expelled if it happened again . The heavy weight of my age group wanted to fight me . I avoided him but was eventually cornered and chose not to fight back and endured a good slapping . Humiliated and a loose of dignity which affected me for many years . I eventually regained my dignity through always sticking up for myself especially on the football field where I was targeted due to my ability . Also through educating myself , getting a good job and working hard .
I realised this morning that I was able to forget the pain which this thread has dug back up . My situation is SO minor to what the Indigenous people ( and you ) have suffered . Something that can NEVER be forgotten .

hutchy ""The first choice is for Goodes to try and ignore these attempts to put him off his game and not engage with the offending crowd ."
As I have made clear . HE DID NOT DO THIS . It did put him off his game and he DID engage with the crowd !!!
"Another choice – which Goodes has made – is to withdraw from the game temporarily. By doing this Goodes is making a statement that he is a dignified and proud Aboriginal man and doesn’t need to put up with or tolerate this form of racist behaviour."
This again showed that the booing was putting him off his game .
As I have said I am soooo over the Goodes conversation and I am also over your inability to debate this issue without being so condescending . Wake UP . You are not acting noble imo !!!!!!!!!!""

out of curiosity , have you seen the Goodes Movie?

I ask because without watching the doco , you only have a whitemans point of view and it's interpretation of all the incidents......the documentary simply gives you Adam's perspective and his connection to his culture .....and the sadness that ensued created by Whietefellas misunderstanding and lack of education in demonizing Adam, still exists as we can see here on the forums....
I think that if you haven't watched at least one of the 2 docos , well , it's a bit of a one eyed view....

Brutus - I have not and do not intend to . I am not , sorry to seem I have , demonizing Adam . I was trying to point out that Eddie handled the same situation differently . As I said in my note to you I have learnt more about about the terrible and ongoing pain suffered by anyone who has been subjected to racism .
Adam is a great human being and role model . I think that Eddie handled the same situation better but I can in no way criticise Adam for his actions as I am unable to imagine what he went through . I can though explain why I believe why the sorry saga escalated so horribly . I have done a bad job of doing this .

Hopefully my last comment about Adam .
He did not do the wrong thing by pointing out the ignorant young girl . The heat of the moment . The media did the wrong thing by highlighting the girl . He did make a mistake imo opinion calling her the face of racism in Australia . He did make a mistake throwing the imaginary boomerang at opposition supporters .
He did not make a mistake allowing the booing affect his game . When Walker plays again the opposition supports will boo him but if it fires him up to play better it will stop quickly .

hutchy....just watch the Goodes doco......the ignorant young girl with her mother next to her goading her on....so what if she was called the "face of racism in Australia"....young and if there is an observation to be made , very bad parenting....and she didn't get away with it...own your mistakes....not an imaginary boomerang...already said it's part of a tribal spear throwing dance , was not aimed at any supporters......
the booing affected all of our lives for the worse , and Walker has a real problem now....his team mates do not support him anymore , he knew better....the good news is his own club officials reported him , so that's a positive.......and the Club suspended him.....I don't think he will be back, and rightfully so!

Brutus
I read this .
https://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/article/2015/08/03/adam-goodes-war-cry-used-...
That is why I changed from a spear to a boomerang .
I have looked at the video and it was against Carlton . You are right there was no real throwing action but I believe it would have stirred up the Blues supporters especially with the scores at the time .

I think you are being way to hard on the 13 year old girl .
.the ignorant young girl with her mother next to her goading her on....so what if she was called the "face of racism in Australia"....young and if there is an observation to be made , very bad parenting....and she didn't get away with it...own your mistakes..
It was an Indigenous boy or girl and they made a terrible mistake ( maybe under the influence of alcohol , drugs or goading ) I would hate for them to be named and shamed and called the face of aboriginal violence ( or whatever ) .

Hutchy 19 wrote:

Brutus
I read this .
https://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/article/2015/08/03/adam-goodes-war-cry-used-...
That is why I changed from a spear to a boomerang .
I have looked at the video and it was against Carlton . You are right there was no real throwing action but I believe it would have stirred up the Blues supporters especially with the scores at the time .

yep Carlton Supporters and others were threatened because in their minds Adam was threatening them with a spear.....not true!
so what does that make the supporters and others that condemned his actions , and booed him?

Hutchy 19 wrote:

I think you are being way to hard on the 13 year old girl .
.the ignorant young girl with her mother next to her goading her on....so what if she was called the "face of racism in Australia"....young and if there is an observation to be made , very bad parenting....and she didn't get away with it...own your mistakes..
It was an Indigenous boy or girl and they made a terrible mistake ( maybe under the influence of alcohol , drugs or goading ) I would hate for them to be named and shamed and called the face of aboriginal violence ( or whatever ) .

being hard on someone, that is insulting and racists towards a player while he's playing ....well you bring age into it.....so here we are years later still talking about the incident....Adam has moved on , will not have anything to do with Aussie rules....he's working in his community , just wrote a childrens book.....it's our loss not his..

Fair enough Brutus . I have had my say . Good luck to Adam Goodes !!!!!!!!

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Hutchy 19 wrote:

Fair enough Brutus . I have had my say . Good luck to Adam Goodes !!!!!!!!

Hutch...Adam Goodes does not need luck....he is very secure in who he is in his culture, his people and is a role model for his community and Australian First Nations Peoples......the sad part is he has been ostracised on a National level from the great Australian dream , of Australia becoming a Cosmopolitan Nation embracing it's 50000 year old culture!

I’m still not sure where this idea of a 50,000 year old culture comes from? Am I supposed to believe that there’s a culture which remained unchanged, for better or worse, for a continuous 50,000 years? Where is the evidence for this? Because rock art was repainted it means the society didn’t change in that time?

Remembering that when the first people arrived in Australia they were actually Timorese / Indonesian.

Please be smart enough to realise that this is not a derogatory attack on indigenous people if you choose to respond to my queries.

I guess you'd have to set the parameters of what's meant by 'culture'. For my little unlearned hot take, aspects of society can change while a culture can still be called continuous, meaning internal changes don't preclude overall continuity.

Would you say Western culture is the same between varying Western nations or that Western culture is still the same as it was only 200 years ago when the Church still dictated terms on those societies? Or even a 100 years ago when people gave their lives for a monarch?

How can indigenous culture be construed as continuous when it’s morphed from a settler society into an encumbent society and throughout multiple differing geological periods of which they contributed to the change ie rainforest to eucalypt via human influence and the extinction of megafauna which must have been a wake up call to pull back on the environmental pressures.

"Would you say Western culture is the same between varying Western nations?"

The business culture, absolutely. That's what defines it.

I’m still not sure where this idea of a 50,000 year old culture comes from? Am I supposed to believe that there’s a culture which remained unchanged, for better or worse, for a continuous 50,000 years? Where is the evidence for this? Because rock art was repainted it means the society didn’t change in that time?

Blowin...lets start with your repainted rock art...please provide a link to where this is stated , and I imagine you are claiming fraud ?
Of course the Indigenous Australian 's ( no, Not pauline , even though she claims she's indigenous because she was born in Australia) there has been 50000+ yrs of indigenous social evolution.......still ongoing today where Blackfellas now have to forgive whitefellas behaviour....there are claims etc of 80000 yrs...but lets keep it simple for ya!

Remembering that when the first people arrived in Australia they were actually Timorese / Indonesian.
where did you dig up the information that Timorese/indonesians were the first people...any links or are you just making up incorrect statements of fact , for trolling purposes?

blowin, "How can indigenous culture be construed as continuous when it’s morphed from a settler society into an encumbent society and throughout multiple differing geological periods of which they contributed to the change ie rainforest to eucalypt via human influence and the extinction of megafauna which must have been a wake up call to pull back on the environmental pressures."

Ok post a link to ....what you just posted above.......you must be trolling us.....

Jeez Blowin, by your definition, society changes so culture isn't the same as it was last century, last decade, or even last year. Take that to its conclusion and there's no such thing as culture (because society is always changing).

Which has echoes of the Iron Lady's, 'there's no such thing as society'.

As I said above, find out what the parameters that constitute culture, as in the term 'continuous culture', before debating whether it exists or not.

Huh?

I thought it was historic record which showed that indigenous fire stick practices altered the flora of Australia? The eucalyptus attained primacy in conjunction with repeated burns? Loss of megafauna would have to influence culture in a similar fashion to how modern fishing culture had to evolve with diminished catch rates.

The change from settler society to incumbent is pretty self evident I’d have thought. Indonesian culture is different to indigenous Australian culture yet they came from a shared origin.

Brutus - If you’ve got evidence that the culture was unchanged for 50,000 years I’d like to see it. I would have thought it was extremely unlikely when you consider their changing circumstance and environment over that period.

The fact that there is 200 odd nations indicates that competition for resources is basically undeniable. This is a completely different culture to the original settler culture who probably stuck together as a single tribe.

Unless you think that 200 tribes arrived separately? In which case how can you imagine they all shared the same culture?

Society is completely different from culture, so the comparisons with Thatcher are completely wrong. I don’t believe that Australian culture is the same now as it was thirty years ago, do you? Culture is almost a generational delineation.

I was listening to a bloke the other day talking about how “his people “ believe that the creators of the land did such and such and lived in a certain place. I was wondering “ I’d that what HE believed?” and found that to be highly unlikely. It was similar to me saying “My people believe in Jesus Christ “ when it’s not really true. It might’ve been true only 100 years ago but the culture has changed.

Where is the hard evidence that indigenous culture was remained static for 50,000 years? There is no physical evidence beyond some rock engravings amd paintings which have been touched up over the years. How are we to know that the art work wasn’t merely preserved in the manner of Australians maintaining cultural monuments from preceded eras despite an almost wholesale diminishing of adherence to the original culture?

Some elements yes, some no.

Point is, you're throwing around these hyper-basic assumptions about very complex systems.

Using 'culture' as a one-stop-shop to prove or disprove whole notions about complex societies over eons is...I don't know how to describe it, but if I were prone to quoting Crowded House I'd say it's like trying to catch the deluge in a paper cup.

Stu- In that case, Stu, can’t almost any culture be stated to be 50,000 years old? If human lineage is the only marker for culture that seems to be the way of things.

Looking at it down on the micro level, I guess you could say that Indigenuous culture wasn't static so it's incorrect to say it's continuous.

Or zooming out to the macro, an anthropologist might note that aspects of Indigenous life were shared in people spread right across the continent, that changes in disparate groups happened at around the same time, and that therefore this qualifies being merited as continuous. No doubt there are many other markers for assessing what constitutes culture but that's my two-minute anthropological breakdown.

Culture has five basic characteristics: It is learned, shared, based on symbols, integrated, and dynamic.
All cultures share these basic features.
Culture is learned. ...
Culture is shared. ...
Culture is based on symbols. ...
Culture is integrated. ...
Culture is dynamic.

6) Culture is a club.

I do not have an opinion of the above tangent . Wondering if each tribe with their different languages and belief's are different cultures ? To hard for me to work out the definition of culture . I have stated before that I believe that ALL hunter gathers were a great example of the main principles of capitalism .
Also everyone needs some luck imo .

Whats culture?

Language, food, housing, dance, art, clothing, ideas. beliefs, habits of a society.

I think its pretty hard to argue that Aboriginal culture changed too much over 50,000 or so.

They started as hunter gatherers like all groups of people and when white fella came they were still hunter gatherers, i doubt the hunting technique changed too much over that time, maybe some unique hunting tools like boomerangs or woomeras or whatever weren't discovered straight away but you would expect they had these things for most of their existence.

The foods they ate over 50,000 years wouldn't have change unless a species died out.

The clothing wouldn't have really changed, it was just using animal skins etc.

Temporary housing didnt change, caves or bark huts etc

The art in caves is very old and we know the same styles and techniques were used way back when and to this day, although technique and style vary to some degree with regions it's still all has a distinctive look.

Stories and dance etc may have changed over time, but you would expect lots of the stories etc go back thousands of years.

Hard to know of language/dialects changed, doubt it changed too much

Just saw T Walker's apology on TV . Looked sincere to me but talk can be cheap . Now it is time for him to " walk the walk " .

Hutchy, the club made him do the press conference , reports are today that he will not be welcomed back to the Club.......sad but some of his closest mates/players have come out and said he shouldn't play again!

I will take your word on this Brutus. He did give an apology and I thought it was a VERY good one ! No if's . Lets see how he responds .

As I have said numerous times on this thread RESENTMENT stops ALL humans from grasping the positives in the future and leading a happy productive life. It causes anxiety , stress and anger . It is the MAIN reason for alcohol and drug dependency !
I feel it on this thread . Being called whitefella ( yellowfella , blackfella whatever colour ) and be criticised for my colours views seems like a good example and a gross generalisation . In most religions it is recommended to " turn the other cheek " , to "forgive those that trespass against us " . I know this is VERY hard to do but it is vital to reduce a personal resentment and allow an individual to move forward and discard the terrible baggage of the past . PLEASE tell me how we can help to do this ! If we can't achieve this the problems of today will NEVER be fixed and EVERYONE and all the future generations will suffer TERRIBLE trauma .

Should have stuck his head on a pike outside Adelaide Oval as a warning for anyone else out there who dares utter an unpalatable word.

T Rex is a mouse BD , more important to think about the elephant ie how do we reduce resentment .

Any suggestions on how we can reduce resentment in the Aboriginal community would be much appreciated !!!!! OTHERWISE :

If we can't achieve this the problems of today will NEVER be fixed and EVERYONE and all the future generations will suffer TERRIBLE trauma .

This IS the ELEPHANT in the room imo or am I wrong . I know we ALL want to fix the problem . So put you thinking caps on and lets try to find some answers . Converting to Islam seems to have helped some individuals overcome resentments . This is urgent as children ARE suffering today !

Does anyone actually know what Tex said?
Surely it was a lot worse than say "look at that fkn black mo fo"?
Easily swap black for skinny, fat, ugly, stupid, white, etc in that context.

views from the cockpit wrote:

Does anyone actually know what Tex said?
Surely it was a lot worse than say "look at that fkn black mo fo"?
Easily swap black for skinny, fat, ugly, stupid, white, etc in that context.

I havent taken much interest in the story but heard some guy on ABC radio ring up last week saying the media hasn't even published what was said so how can we even judge if it was crossing the line or whatever.

It was an interesting thought which made me curious to what was actually said, i then tried to find out what was said and although cant be certain its correct i found the answer in a footy forum discussion, im not sure if i should say here exactly what was said as i will probably get flamed but it was the colour of his skin along with a swear word many women hate.

I get racism is racism, so just dont go there, and OMG the apology was so cringey the embarrassment should be punishment enough.

But yeah i get your point, the insults on field between opposition players would be crazy, trying to get under each others skin and put the other player off, id imagine there would even be real personal insults about each others GF and wife etc

I wonder if it would be acceptable if a coloured player or even a white player called another player like say Dusty Martin, White Trash?

Or indigenous people that often support more western lifestyles or beliefs especially non cliche ones often get called Coconuts or Oreo, Uncle tom etc, i wonder how that would be seen by the AFL if it happened between two indigenous players or even white towards indigenous

It's easy to know how some things sit, but it's a bit harder to know where some other lines are drawn in regard to these types of things between AFL players etc.

Blue Diamond

Below are your suggestions on how to make Reparation for past historic injustices . None would ever be approved in our democracy and given to a group that make up less than 5% of our population . Even if given do you really think they would solve ANY of the shameful social issues facing aboriginal people .

I saw a show coming up about the current statistic that aboriginal people are 13 times more likely to be incarcerated . Shameful ! I would expect it to show that in say 30% of cases aboriginals have been unfairly treated due to their race . A shameful stat that needs urgent remedies. If that is the case it will still mean that aboriginals are NINE times more likely to be put in jail for crimes . Equally shameful and urgent to remedy !

For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.

Are aboriginals able to effectively manage ( and own ) 50% of our media companies and industries ?

None of your suggestions are achievable and I cannot see how they can help us rectify the current problems . I have asked for suggestions on how we can reduce the current resentment ( well justified ) in aboriginals . Any good suggestion I will support and argue for .

I am so said you feel like this !!!!!! If you or anyone else can not offer any suggestions on how we can help aboriginals move forward to a more positive future the problems of today will NEVER get better and probably MUCH worse .

BD - not sure what post you are referring to . I have not seen ONE realistic suggestion you have made to improve the terrible situation of aboriginal problems
I did read this though and have a suggestion for you below .

"If i say 85 percent of Australians think along the lines of indifference and ignorance, that is because it's based on pure observation. What would you like me to do about that? Close my eyes. Close my ears. Shut up and not observe? "

Get out from where you are and do some REAL observation !!!!! Where the fuck do you live ? See the REAL Australia as at the moment you have no idea !!!!!!