The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Hutchy 19 wrote:FFS Hutchy , you know nothing about the subject at hand Threatening to call out bullshit here , which is your prerogative, has no real basis except a couple of articles you have read .....people are bringing first hand stories backed up by links and personal experiences, FFS have you ever met a blackfella??
I will say it again...the first part of the solution is to be educated on the history of indigenous/first Nations Australian's and the history of what colonialism did to those people and also what is happening now , so we can forge a future together.......but when I read your posts it becomes obvious that it's people like you who are refusing to listen and learn , but are stuck in a rut of old world thinking, that is a serious problem going forward......as you don't want to be part of the solution....you are the problem!Just trying to clean up a bit BD .
Have every intention of not offering my opinions on this thread in the future . I will call out , as I have said , any bullshit .
You have NEVER offered any sensible solution so I will not , ever , listen to your suggestions .
sypkan wrote:"The same issues faced in Indigenous communities are also a huge problem in PNG communities, what are they resentful about???"
this is an interesting point, even though there is a history of it, pretty hard to blame colonisation and 'stolen land' now...
yes the history has shaped the place, but given that papuans are self governing now, and have for decades, one could ask why is the place still so messrd up now?
possibly as messed up as anywhere looking at some statistics...
a few thoughts...
Inequality
educated and uneducated classes
large scale corruption
uneven development
and too fast a pace of development - compounding and exploiting all of the above...
essentially, much like indonesia... a mercantile and educated class of locals have evolved, and slotted in rather conveniently, just filling the void of the vacating colonisers overlords...
which may, or may not, lead to resentment...
papua has, and has had, the means and opportunity to undo any supposed 'structural racism' for quite some time... with little evidence of inclination to do so...
it seems the yearning and harbouring of power, wealth, greed, and all the nice stuff that comes with it... overpowers all...
maybe it's not all just nasty 'white man's disease'...
(just thinking aloud... happy to be torn apart...)
Sypkan , its actually quite common to see ex-colonial run countries struggle with their independence...all through Africa / PNG /Polynesia.....I have a friend who spends a lot of time in Madagascar....really sad to hear about the state they are in....I wonder where all these country's learnt about money and power??
thought you might like this one where the Australian Govt suppressed and destroyed evidence of the Indo's massacring men women and children.....we are as guilty as Indonesia in the cover up and the destruction of evidence.......https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/sep/19/killed-like-anima...
brutus wrote:sypkan wrote:"The same issues faced in Indigenous communities are also a huge problem in PNG communities, what are they resentful about???"
this is an interesting point, even though there is a history of it, pretty hard to blame colonisation and 'stolen land' now...
yes the history has shaped the place, but given that papuans are self governing now, and have for decades, one could ask why is the place still so messrd up now?
possibly as messed up as anywhere looking at some statistics...
a few thoughts...
Inequality
educated and uneducated classes
large scale corruption
uneven development
and too fast a pace of development - compounding and exploiting all of the above...
essentially, much like indonesia... a mercantile and educated class of locals have evolved, and slotted in rather conveniently, just filling the void of the vacating colonisers overlords...
which may, or may not, lead to resentment...
papua has, and has had, the means and opportunity to undo any supposed 'structural racism' for quite some time... with little evidence of inclination to do so...
it seems the yearning and harbouring of power, wealth, greed, and all the nice stuff that comes with it... overpowers all...
maybe it's not all just nasty 'white man's disease'...
(just thinking aloud... happy to be torn apart...)
Sypkan , its actually quite common to see ex-colonial run countries struggle with their independence...all through Africa / PNG /Polynesia.....I have a friend who spends a lot of time in Madagascar....really sad to hear about the state they are in....I wonder where all these country's learnt about money and power??
thought you might like this one where the Australian Govt suppressed and destroyed evidence of the Indo's massacring men women and children.....we are as guilty as Indonesia in the cover up and the destruction of evidence.......https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/sep/19/killed-like-anima...
So why dont we see the same problems in Indonesia?
Indonesia was colonised for far longer and the influence on Indonesians and society was far greater, especially in the main island areas of Java, Bali, Sumatra etc
Do we see higher levels of violence in these areas or in Indonesia in general?....
No as we all know although Indonesia has issues it doesnt have half the problems with violence etc that PNG does, the actual homicide rate in PNG is actually 20 times higher than Indonesia.
Is there resentment towards Holland or the Dutch?
No Indonesia still has a connection with Holland many Indonesians live there, any kind of negativity or resentment is extremely rare and in most cases the complete opposite, Indonesians are more likely to feel a connection to Dutch people.
The elephant in the room is CULTURE, tribal culture to be exact.
Does anyone actually think anything in PNG would be any different if it had never been colonised and then exposed to the modern world?
Would there still be tribal wars & tribal conflict, or things like witch craft killings and sorcery murders etc?
Off course there would be, and all the other aspects of violence, colonisation doesn't magically create these things, it's complete and utter hogwash so suggest it does.
All cultures that have these issues are roots style tribal type cultures that have sudden been flung into a modern world.
The main areas of what would become Indonesia though had already developed into a more progressive culture with settlements and farming, kingdoms and empires much more structure and systems in place, written language, grand buildings and temples etc
Why or how did Indonesia develop while PNG didnt?
Because of exposure to other cultures from as early as the first century, exposure through trade that influences all kinds of aspects of a society, everything from religion to language to law and customs to how things are done, cultures learn from other cultures and expand and develop, strength and violence is still a powerful tool but its not the main tool.
However in a tribal based culture physical strength is everything, you need to be able to hunt, you need to be able to protect the women and children and you might even need to physical fight over women.
This is why tribal cultures are also very raw patriarchal system, because like it or not men and women are different physically with men being stronger, the women dont go out hunting or fighting the neighbouring tribe over resources for good reason.
When these cultures have been living like this for thousands of years, they dont just suddenly change and say, oh okay im all up for equal right for women or whatever, culture in part is habits and old habit dont just change quickly, it takes time and exposure.
Places like Indonesia have had in many areas almost a thousand years of outside influence to develop not to mention originally migrated from various areas of Asia, and even the cultures that were still more tribal and even practiced things like head hunting (for example Nias & Batak) were much more exposed to the influence of other Indonesian ethnic groups again through things like trade.
BTW. Obviously Indonesia wasn't technically a thing way back then, so when im talking Indonesia im using that term just because its easy to describe all the different ethnic groups and islands etc
I’m not sure that things are that simple in PNG, although the tribal aspects are never far below the surface. But it’s difficult to generalize about what tribalism means in a place that has in excess of 300 tribes, many quite distinct, in a country of about 5million total population.
For example, there’s both matrilineal and patrilineal land titles in different tribes.
Good, well written and thought out post Indo. Thought provoking too. I'm not really up to speed on everything over that way but was good to get the wheels ticking over. Cheers.
People really, really, really need to read this book. It answers the exact questions posed in the last few comments. I think there’s a doco about it but surely it’d cull too much for the format.
Great book. Should be mandatory in every school on Earth.
PS- Good post, Indo.
With a name like Jared Diamond, i'll read it Blowin!! haha. Thanks for the headsup.
bluediamond wrote:Good, well written and thought out post Indo. Thought provoking too. I'm not really up to speed on everything over that way but was good to get the wheels ticking over. Cheers.
Thanks
Blowin wrote:People really, really, really need to read this book. It answers the exact questions posed in the last few comments. I think there’s a doco about it but surely it’d cull too much for the format.
Great book. Should be mandatory in every school on Earth.
PS- Good post, Indo.
Ive heard of the book but never read it, will have to get around to it, only read books when i go to Indo to kill time waiting for flights and downtime :D (to much distractions otherwise with kids etc)
Indo , so the tribal cultures shouldn't resist occupation , and it's OK to machine gun down women and children, then the Aust Govt covers up the massacre and destroys the evidence?
East Timor ,hmm now there's another fiasco, where Australia actually helped the East Timorese win independence from ?.........hmmmm then we tried to rip them off in stealing their oil and gas rights!
Indonesia is a corrupt country as we all know , and yeah we turn a blind eye to a lot of things because we love going surfing there.....do you think that the people of the Mentawi's have received any real benefits since surfing boomed in their islands?
brutus wrote:..do you think that the people of the Mentawi's have received any real benefits since surfing boomed in their islands?
Okay will answer this question first
Simple question, complex answer but yes.
But firstly we have to define Mentawai people, we can just use an umbrella term to describe them all, but they are actually at least 3 distinct groups.
1. Indigenous Mentawai people who live deep in the jungle of Siberut, and although they can be Christian are generally still mostly anemistic in beliefs.
2. Other Mentawai villages, generally close to coast, these people have generally descended from Indigenous people but don't really practice traditional beliefs and are almost all Christian, some have intermarried with people from mainland though and many of these people from these villages move to the mainland or one of three bigger port town areas for further schooling or work etc.
3. The three main port towns( Muara Siberut, Tua Pajet, Sikakap)and the surrounding ever growing villages, are made up of a mix of ethnic groups, people moved from Mentawai villages, people moved from other areas of Sumatra or even Java often Christian like Batak, Nias, some from Medan, some as part of transmigration programs then you have people moved from Padang (Minang) generally Muslims, then you have Indo Chinese (generally Christian)
So how have each of these groups benefited from surfing tourism?
1. Minimal benefit as so cut off from civilisation and only a very small group, Kandui do traditional dance displays but doubt they come all the way from inner Siburut, backpacker type tourist who visit their villages benefit them though.
2. Depends on the area, but some villages have benefited quite a bit like
Katiet near HT's it has turned into a little boom town, living standards etc greatly improved.
Silabu near Macaronis (the village there has benefited hugely from the resort, who funds all kinds of projects like electricity infrastructure or clean water schemes, i worked there so I've seen it first hand, they also employee quite a few locals and pay them proper rates, if bigger projects like building etc they also try to employee locals from village, they actually have written agreements for this and even a percentage of staff must be employed from village etc)
Taileleu and another village (forgot the name) on main island of Siberut has benefited hugely from surf tourism, all the local homestays at E-bay are owned by these people who originally owned land in this area for coconut farming, they had basic huts to stay when they came over to collect coconuts these huts is where surfers first started staying (happy to say i was lucky enough to be in the groups who stayed in these before more proper accommodation was built for surfers)
Lots of supplies for food, water, fuel come from this village too as nearest proper civilisation.
Otherwise these coastal villages only benefit if boats arrive and pay the village a fee or benefit through aid groups, kind of sucks for some villages though if you dont have a wave nearby you miss out on benefit of boats
3. All these port towns benefit from surf tourism, it's where all fuel for resort surf camps are bought, smaller camps buy pretty much all supplies from these places if can't get in smaller villages but bigger places do bring in food from Padang, mostly because they need a lot of food and many more western type foods can only be bought from Padang.
Resorts and camps also pay local taxes official and not so official, some go direct to Indo government but some go direct to Mentawai government, which in theory goes back into the local economy through spending. (surprisingly they do spend money too, i guess you can view it as good or bad, but quite bait of development is happening in some areas of Mentawai, public infustrcture etc)
You also need to seperate Charter boats from losmens/surf camps/resorts
Charter boats: They buy most of their fuel and food in Padang as that's where they start and much cheaper, they also dont pay taxes in Mentawai but pay all kinds of fees in Padang, they also rarely employee Mentawai locals, generally from Padang or elsewhere, the benefit to Mentawai people is close to zero except the odd payment when anchored near a village, but they try avoiding paying anyway, which ive seen turn to conflict in villages.
Losmens- General local owned and run
Surf camps-Local owned and run or foreign owned and run or mix
Resorts-Foreign owned generally with well off Indonesian business partners, rarely from Mentawais.
All above employee locals, pay local taxes, buy all or some supplies locally, so yes benefit locals and Mentawai economy.
So yeah there is benefit, but there is a huge difference between benefit from charter boats and land accommodation, if you want to know why the Mentawau government allows charter boats then?..
Two main reasons,
1. Padang benefits from charter boats and Padang government is bigger and stronger as are the companies that benefit from things like supplying fuel.
2. There is no legal law to really stop them from operating in Mentawai waters.
Thanks Supa - A wonderful man , a wonderful cause ! I am sure nearly all surfers who visit the Ments would be happy to pay 5% plus extra if it could go to this bloke .
Good video, the area still has it's issues people still die from TB etc but things have improved greatly too in the last 20 years in the region, especially malaria, even mas Covid vaccination has been happening out in Mentawais & Telos etc.
Indo- It shows clearly how surfing has benefited the region as you pointed out .
Wavepark ( where we stayed ) has a policy of employing locals and donating to local communities
Indo , how many surf business's are owned by the people of the Mentawis .....??
No comment on the corruption/massacres by the Indo's.....do you think they learnt from the Colonial dutch?
"Indo , how many surf business's are owned by the people of the Mentawis .....??"
That wasn't your original question though brutus.
I thought that was great answer from ID
goofyfoot wrote:"Indo , how many surf business's are owned by the people of the Mentawis .....??"
That wasn't your original question though brutus.
I thought that was great answer from ID
Hi Gf , yeah ID did a great job to answer about the Mentawi's...great history lesson and I think there was a bit of a shit fight because they were Christian , and Indo muslim...
My point with the owning business etc......is about long term business ownership models , and not just employing locals.....
brutus wrote:Indo , how many surf business's are owned by the people of the Mentawis .....??
No comment on the corruption/massacres by the Indo's.....do you think they learnt from the Colonial dutch?
High end resorts, none i know of but these resorts like Macaronis, Aloita , Kandui, Kandui villas etc they are as far as i know mostly owned by investors anyway.
Then you have decent price place's that are more owner operator owned with Indo partners sometimes investors like Pitstop hill, Wave Park, King fisher etc
There is some mid range surf camps that are owned or partial owned by locals, honestly its so hard to keep tabs on things now its just got out of control
But the best example is The Shadow, it was started by Ade a Mentawain who originally use to run a traditional long boat to take surfers from harbour to Ebay and him and father built up money to eventually set up a proper camp on a private island, this is a real success story, dude even hooked up with a hot brazilian lady and now lives half the year in Mentawais half the year traveling etc
https://www.theshadowmentawai.com/index.html
Yantos place is also another Mentawai opened place that charges a good price, he worked on boats and resorts before starting his place (website seems to be down) trip advisor link https://www.tripadvisor.com.au/VacationRentalReview-g1572269-d9722478-Ya...
There has been a few locals that have worked at places then gone out on their own in recent years, but like i said ive just given up trying to keep tabs on things and havent been to the Mentawais in a few years now, also now seeing westerners marry locals and start up business.
All the places at E-bay are also 100% local owned or some have partner with western for guidance maybe they get a cut i dont know, or commission on bookings and free accommodation that kind of thing, there are also others at Its and around Telescope area and some others i wont mention here.
Its really not as bad as you might think, its just not the high end places that are local owned, most of the lower end places are, and their prices arent dairy cheap anymore for Indonesians they are making real good money, even decent money in some case by our standards.
In regard to corruption, yeah Indonesia has corruption but its nowhere near as bad as other countries even PNG is worse
I dont want to make this into a competition but fir perspective Indonesia ranks 102 PNG ranks 142 out of 180 countries on corruption index.
Corruption has actually been improving in Indonesia at least on an everyday type level, it's nowhere as bad as it once was at least at a everyday level even dealing with government departments etc, its good and bad, you dont get ripped off, but its also harder to pay extra for example to get something done quicker.
Expect at higher levels it's still real bad though, even in Australia we still have corruption at high levels.
I started a post on West Papua etc but I'm not even sure if i want to go there its just going to really derail the thread.
Brutus…Why don’t you just come out and say what you think?
This being that people with whitish skin are the devil and everyone else in the world who happen to have less white skin are innocent victims who were living in a utopian paradise before ol’ whitey came around.
Don’t you get tired of the pussy footing around?
Go read a history book bloke.
"Brutus…Why don’t you just come out and say what you think?
This being that people with whitish skin are the devil and everyone else in the world who happen to have less white skin are innocent victims who were living in a utopian paradise before ol’ whitey came around."
FFS blowin give it a rest making up people's opinions. I've surfed with Brutus on many occasions and never once has he been even the slightest bit unpleasant. I'm as white as they come and Brutus has never once dropped in on me or thought I was the devil.
You're just embarrassing yourself again blowin..
This thread just reached a new low , blowin you are way out of line.
Interesting post ID. Indonesia was regularly ranked as the most corrupt country in the world by Transparency International in the 1990s. Australia was right at the top of the rankings. Indo is now 102/180 and they are heading in the right direction.
Australia under the LNP hasn't improved our rating once in the last 8 years.
I'm tipping we might drop another point or two after Porter took a million dollars from an anonymous source. He can call it a "blind trust" all he wants. It's just an electronic version of a brown paper bag stuffed with cash.
The fucker should have been marched out of parliament for good but he's now sitting on the back bench with the cash.
What a shit show.
Brutus has just suggested that the Indonesians learnt corruption and murder from the colonial Dutch.
Blowin wrote:Brutus has just suggested that the Indonesians learnt corruption and murder from the colonial Dutch.
Which obviously isn't true.
All developing countries have high levels of corruption, generally the poorer they are the higher the corruption index.
For perspective SE Region
Singapore= 3
Malaysia= 57
Indonesia=102
Thailand=104
Philipines=115
Laos=134
Myanmar=137
PNG=142
Cambodia=160
Maybe that means the British influence was good for Malaysia and Singapore :D
ID,
Indo is an unusual case though. The Dutch ran it as a classic colony, plundering the natural resource for the mother country.
When the Dutch / Japanese left, Indonesia basically became a Javanese colony. For those living on the outer islands, nothing much changed except the plunderers lived slightly closer to their villages.
Ha ha so you are saying the plunderers baton went from Dutch to Javanese?
It is true in a sense, thats actually got much better in the last 15 years or so too, first under SBY and now under Jokowi, Indonesia is heaps less Java centric than it was and sharing the love around a lot more now, you can actually see the money being spent all over places like Sumatra even in remote areas.
I think they have been really trying to keep all the islands happy to keep Indonesia together.
Now they are even planning to build a new capitol city on Kalimantan, pretty crazy stuff, you have to be skeptical on how it will go, probably still end up a total chaotic mess of a city.
Blowin wrote:Brutus…Why don’t you just come out and say what you think?
This being that people with whitish skin are the devil and everyone else in the world who happen to have less white skin are innocent victims who were living in a utopian paradise before ol’ whitey came around.
Don’t you get tired of the pussy footing around?
Go read a history book bloke.
Blowin , seems I have hit a nerve with you and your whiteness, LOL..........you have shown that you make up stats to support your arguments/opinions.......when it comes to history , I am actually a History buff, love the fact that History is a fluid subject as more facts become available through , lost manuscripts/archaeology/anthropology.......
You seem very confused about my opinions on white fellas....my references are back to colonial times which forged a new world in what were once indigenous country's....I find it amazing that as we uncover more and more facts about our past , it explains a lot about how we see things today.......FFS blowin I spent 50 years with a Scotwoman........had my kids and grandkids....they are 1/2 > 1/4 Scots with a dash of Irish.....
Blowin wrote:Brutus has just suggested that the Indonesians learnt corruption and murder from the colonial Dutch.
It's an interesting thought on what affects did Dutch colonial rule have on Indonesia...I have never really read/studied Indonesian history.......but do know that the Dutch were a pretty brutal colonialists , South Africa just to name one.....
the first time I went to Bali in 73, actually went twice..it was Utopia , never seen anything like how the balinese were then......went back there 32 years later couldn't recognize the place ....that old cliche...paradise lost comes to mind...
indo-dreaming wrote:Ha ha so you are saying the plunderers baton went from Dutch to Javanese?
It is true in a sense, thats actually got much better in the last 15 years or so too, first under SBY and now under Jokowi, Indonesia is heaps less Java centric than it was and sharing the love around a lot more now, you can actually see the money being spent all over places like Sumatra even in remote areas.
I think they have been really trying to keep all the islands happy to keep Indonesia together.
Now they are even planning to build a new capitol city on Kalimantan, pretty crazy stuff, you have to be skeptical on how it will go, probably still end up a total chaotic mess of a city.
thanx Indo good history lesson.........I actually get 2 free boat trips a year on the Addiction (my best mate owns it) only been once a couple of years ago , as it's too bloody hot, LOL!
The big transition away from the Java Centric state of affairs came when the budgets got shifted from Provinces to the Districts. There's still corruption but the people with the cash are now a lot closer to the people who elect them. There's more accountability now, and leaders need to do more than chuck out free t shirts a few weeks before polling day to earn the votes,
Brutus said , .I actually get 2 free boat trips a year on the Addiction (my best mate owns it) only been once a couple of years ago , as it's too bloody hot, LOL…………my best mate sold it to him…….my free trips are finished.
Me mates drive it.got a free trip when the rich rip curl bought it.
funny thing is the captains complained about these wanye kareys on land camps in the tellos that would try n tell em not to surf waves they'd been going to for years?
small archipelago aint it?
brutus wrote:Blowin wrote:Brutus has just suggested that the Indonesians learnt corruption and murder from the colonial Dutch.
It's an interesting thought on what affects did Dutch colonial rule have on Indonesia...I have never really read/studied Indonesian history.......but do know that the Dutch were a pretty brutal colonialists , South Africa just to name one.....
the first time I went to Bali in 73, actually went twice..it was Utopia , never seen anything like how the balinese were then......went back there 32 years later couldn't recognize the place ....that old cliche...paradise lost comes to mind...
I read a bit of Indonesian history but a lot of it goes over my head there is just so much to take in, you read negative and positive things about the Dutch but when the topic comes up with Indonesians even in a large group they rarely say anything negative, ive only met one Indonesian women who took a bad attitude to the Dutch, i do think most Indonesians are a bit ignorant to there own history though even if they learn it at school.
Yeah sure they love celebrating independence day but it just seems more an excuse to celebrate something together kind of like Australia day, people dont think too much about the history.
My father is originally from Holland though came out to Aust as a kid, so i guess I'm half Dutch, it means little to nothing to me so i dont really bring it up with Indonesians, but if i do for some reason they never react in a negative way its actually generally the opposite, like an extra connection, especially the older people from that era for instance my wife's great grandmother was still alive when we were first together she was very old and frail stubborn and grumpy to everyone else, but she always thought i was Dutch and she could still speak Dutch so she would be trying to talk to me in Dutch even though we told her i couldn't speak Dutch and was an Aussie.
I will never forget the way she looked at me though it was weird but in a nice way she clearly happy and excited to see me, clearly she was taken back somewhere else and it wasn't a bad place, maybe she had some Dutch lover or something :D
I also got Bahasa Indonesia lessons for a while from this old Dutch guy who had lived in Indonesia most of his life but retired in Australia to be closer to kids, i got to a stage where i felt i was too busy to do paid lessons and he and his wife insisted i continue but didn't pay, they loved me and in time he become almost like an adopted grandfather to me (passed away now), so id just visit them when i could, he had a lot of stories and things to tell about the Dutch and time in Indonesia, he use to run Indonesian community stuff at a national level in Australia and then lots of Indonesian stuff at a local level and Indonesians clearly loved him. (and he clearly loved the Indo girls, even though he had a Dutch wife)
There is still the odd older Dutch people living in Indonesia too, like in my wife's area, people dont seem to have any negativeity towards them.
Indo Chinese on the other hand a large percentage of Indonesians clearly despise them as most (not all) are very well off and own a lot of business in Indonesia, they also have a reputation for not treating workers real great, they were the main group mobs targeted when the 90s riots in Jakarta and other areas happened.
On the flip side though Indo Chinese are regarded by most Indonesians as attractive as have lighter skin, i guess jealously is a big factor though, well off and attractive and rarely marry non Chinese Indonesians.
Indo - my mother was born in the Netherlands . Her aunty lived in Jakarta . Loved the country and taught us how to use chopsticks .
@indo , I have a different experience to yours and the majority of Balinese I personally know despise the dutch and even treat them differently still today to other tourists . Ive personally witnessed this first hand . I’m not saying it’s right but there is still ill feelings towards the dutch today . I’m only speaking from my own experience in Bali . Here’s a couple of articles that may interest you . https://theconversation.com/the-dark-history-of-slavery-and-racism-in-in... http://www.indonesia-dutchcolonialheritage.nl/Bali1846-1849/Bali%201846-.... https://www.ozy.com/true-and-stories/suicide-or-servitude-heres-when-the...
Supafreak wrote:@indo , I have a different experience to yours and the majority of Balinese I personally know despise the dutch and even treat them differently still today to other tourists . Ive personally witnessed this first hand . I’m not saying it’s right but there is still ill feelings towards the dutch today . I’m only speaking from my own experience in Bali . Here’s a couple of articles that may interest you . https://theconversation.com/the-dark-history-of-slavery-and-racism-in-in... http://www.indonesia-dutchcolonialheritage.nl/Bali1846-1849/Bali%201846-.... https://www.ozy.com/true-and-stories/suicide-or-servitude-heres-when-the...
Thats surprising I wonder if Balinese view things differently, my experience is based more on Javanese and Sumatran peoples views, i just blow through Bali.
Yeah i know there is negative aspects in the history, but ive just never come across any negative attitudes towards Dutch today.
Would be interesting to get the view of well traveled/lived in Indo Dutch person with accent etc
udo wrote:https://www.facebook.com/763065747072290/photos/a.798054873573377/309626...
Weird you post this only 5 minutes ago on ABC radio they were talking about this very subject.
indo-dreaming wrote:brutus wrote:Blowin wrote:Brutus has just suggested that the Indonesians learnt corruption and murder from the colonial Dutch.
It's an interesting thought on what affects did Dutch colonial rule have on Indonesia...I have never really read/studied Indonesian history.......but do know that the Dutch were a pretty brutal colonialists , South Africa just to name one.....
the first time I went to Bali in 73, actually went twice..it was Utopia , never seen anything like how the balinese were then......went back there 32 years later couldn't recognize the place ....that old cliche...paradise lost comes to mind...I read a bit of Indonesian history but a lot of it goes over my head there is just so much to take in, you read negative and positive things about the Dutch but when the topic comes up with Indonesians even in a large group they rarely say anything negative, ive only met one Indonesian women who took a bad attitude to the Dutch, i do think most Indonesians are a bit ignorant to there own history though even if they learn it at school.
Yeah sure they love celebrating independence day but it just seems more an excuse to celebrate something together kind of like Australia day, people dont think too much about the history.
My father is originally from Holland though came out to Aust as a kid, so i guess I'm half Dutch, it means little to nothing to me so i dont really bring it up with Indonesians, but if i do for some reason they never react in a negative way its actually generally the opposite, like an extra connection, especially the older people from that era for instance my wife's great grandmother was still alive when we were first together she was very old and frail stubborn and grumpy to everyone else, but she always thought i was Dutch and she could still speak Dutch so she would be trying to talk to me in Dutch even though we told her i couldn't speak Dutch and was an Aussie.
I will never forget the way she looked at me though it was weird but in a nice way she clearly happy and excited to see me, clearly she was taken back somewhere else and it wasn't a bad place, maybe she had some Dutch lover or something :D
I also got Bahasa Indonesia lessons for a while from this old Dutch guy who had lived in Indonesia most of his life but retired in Australia to be closer to kids, i got to a stage where i felt i was too busy to do paid lessons and he and his wife insisted i continue but didn't pay, they loved me and in time he become almost like an adopted grandfather to me (passed away now), so id just visit them when i could, he had a lot of stories and things to tell about the Dutch and time in Indonesia, he use to run Indonesian community stuff at a national level in Australia and then lots of Indonesian stuff at a local level and Indonesians clearly loved him. (and he clearly loved the Indo girls, even though he had a Dutch wife)
There is still the odd older Dutch people living in Indonesia too, like in my wife's area, people dont seem to have any negativeity towards them.
Indo Chinese on the other hand a large percentage of Indonesians clearly despise them as most (not all) are very well off and own a lot of business in Indonesia, they also have a reputation for not treating workers real great, they were the main group mobs targeted when the 90s riots in Jakarta and other areas happened.
On the flip side though Indo Chinese are regarded by most Indonesians as attractive as have lighter skin, i guess jealously is a big factor though, well off and attractive and rarely marry non Chinese Indonesians.
the dutch were brutal colonists, took all the resources, didn't really educate the locals, a very stratified society developed...
then the japanese came in WW11, somewhat celebrated by local indonesians, under the thinking their asian brotherhood will surely treat them better than the brutal dutch...
well that didn't quite work out to plan, and I imagine this feeds the thinking the dutch weren't so bad after all...
a lesson contrary to the 'all white man bad' thinking that's out there...
indo-dreaming wrote:Supafreak wrote:@indo , I have a different experience to yours and the majority of Balinese I personally know despise the dutch and even treat them differently still today to other tourists . Ive personally witnessed this first hand . I’m not saying it’s right but there is still ill feelings towards the dutch today . I’m only speaking from my own experience in Bali . Here’s a couple of articles that may interest you . https://theconversation.com/the-dark-history-of-slavery-and-racism-in-in... http://www.indonesia-dutchcolonialheritage.nl/Bali1846-1849/Bali%201846-.... https://www.ozy.com/true-and-stories/suicide-or-servitude-heres-when-the...
Thats surprising I wonder if Balinese view things differently, my experience is based more on Javanese and Sumatran peoples views, i just blow through Bali.
Yeah i know there is negative aspects in the history, but ive just never come across any negative attitudes towards Dutch today.
Would be interesting to get the view of well traveled/lived in Indo Dutch person with accent etc
the balinese are some of the coolest calmest cats on the planet, with a culture, place, and religion that is enviable...
under that mellow cool exterior, they are also warriors, who hate everyone...
Im half joking, but the balinese have been under attack from all sides, for a long time... their little resource povvo island resisted dutch influences for a lot longer, so I imagine the dutch encroachments (and javanese) are much more fresher in their minds
Hitting it hard today Blumpkin!
is Paddy Mills the greatest Australian ever , read this.....it's a bit of a long read , but one of the most important building blocks and a foundation to understanding Australia's First Nations as a foundation for who we/Australians are today!
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/this-is-all-our-culture-patty-mills-and-...
For all the people who are negative on BLM/reconciliation and what to do going forward to try and build a Nation called Australia , which encompasses all race/creed ......
Thanks for that brutus. A great read and a great contribution to the process of building the Nation so many of us hope to see.
Brutus - I must admit I am a bit negative on BLM . Why concentrate on one colour . Brown , yellow , red , white lives matter all exactly the same .
All colours have been made slaves and all have been discriminated against since the dawn of time . Add in religions to . All colours are having the same problems somewhere in the world right now . Shouldn't we be trying to help them all ?
Is it not racist to favour one colour ?
I will read the article as I am passionate about reconciliation .
Sorry to make a come back on this site .
Hutchy & Info the conjoined imbeciles constantly splashing down the shallow end of the gene pool. Infinite ignorance. #there’salwaysanothercomment
Hutchy, you comment , then add your disdain for BLM......but didn't read the article , FFS why comment on something you haven't read?
Hutchy 19 wrote:Brutus - I must admit I am a bit negative on BLM . Why concentrate on one colour . Brown , yellow , red , white lives matter all exactly the same .
All colours have been made slaves and all have been discriminated against since the dawn of time . Add in religions to . All colours are having the same problems somewhere in the world right now . Shouldn't we be trying to help them all ?
Is it not racist to favour one colour ?
I will read the article as I am passionate about reconciliation .
Sorry to make a come back on this site .
Hutchy, you comment , then add your disdain for BLM......but didn't read the article , FFS why comment on something you haven't read?
Hutchy 19 wrote:Brutus - I must admit I am a bit negative on BLM . Why concentrate on one colour . Brown , yellow , red , white lives matter all exactly the same .
All colours have been made slaves and all have been discriminated against since the dawn of time . Add in religions to . All colours are having the same problems somewhere in the world right now . Shouldn't we be trying to help them all ?
Is it not racist to favour one colour ?
I will read the article as I am passionate about reconciliation .
Sorry to make a come back on this site .
Yeah BB , everybody who thinks they are Australian should have a read at potentially one of the greatest building blocks for our Nation !
blindboy wrote:Thanks for that brutus. A great read and a great contribution to the process of building the Nation so many of us hope to see.
Guy - the definition of ignorance -"lack of knowledge or information."
Other than abuse your post provided NO information on what you took offence to in my post .
Pot calling the kettle black !
hutchy , FFS have you read the article yet??
Hutchy 19 wrote:Guy - the definition of ignorance -"lack of knowledge or information."
Other than abuse your post provided NO information on what you took offence to in my post .
Pot calling the kettle black !
Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x
The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.
Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.
Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.
The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.
Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??
Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28
References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28