The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

bluediamond started the topic in

Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

bluediamond Saturday, 23 Oct 2021 at 6:55pm

@hutchy said 'if SN had a search function, I would check to see its the first positive thing you've said about Kennet'
Yep hutchy. You would. Weird c@#t.

Fliplid Saturday, 23 Oct 2021 at 6:59pm

From someone worth listening to and relevant to the turn of conversation here

indo-dreaming Saturday, 23 Oct 2021 at 7:44pm

5:20 onwards was the good bit, you have to really respect those that suffer so much but can still completely forgive, it wouldn't be an easy thing.

happyppl Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 7:04am

GuySmiley wrote:
The comparisons b/w AU and NZ are stark in how indigenous people and culture are accepted and celebrated. I would imagine for your average NZer a source of personal and national pride that the past is acknowledged and present is celebrated shoulder to shoulder to make the country culturally richer .... anyway that’s my take on a country I love visiting.

https://www.tepapa.govt.nz/

happyppl Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 7:14am

Gs before tbe maoris came to nz the mori ori (?) were the indigenous ppl and they were peacefull happy ppl non violent.
The maoris enslaved and ate them...no bull.

GuySmiley Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 8:25am

Yes I’ve heard that also happyppl

Hutchy 19 Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 8:33am

Blue - It was a joke . Sorry , I should have said I believed everyone on the Left hated Kennet with a passion . You would understand that .

Even though he has obviously done good work . Great President of Beyond Blue and picked a wonderful person to succeed him - Julia Gillard . Now I hope he can add a strong and pragmatic view to ensure that a Treaty helps our First Nations and is seen as attractive to the non indigenous .

I couldn't read the article and am unsure how a Treaty is implemented . Do we need to vote on it ?

Not a question for you Blue .

brutus Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 9:29am

Indo , really you are worried for me , LOL?

indo-dreaming wrote:
Hutchy 19 wrote:
That is not how you come across to me . You exhibit huge resentment to colonization , capitalism , stolen generation , genocide etc .
They are facts .

100% it's impossible to deny, and it will eat him up.
And people like BB encouraging it is really sad.

Firstly Hutchy's facts are just his opinion , based on what I have written here , and the links I have posted....all of a sudden resentment is eating me up because you tried to use the word resentment , really Indo , so now you have a new descriptive resentment . I could say the same about you and Hutchy! You both resent what I post here as it threatens your view of the World and Australia . As usual it's now about your perception , trying to discredit what I post with some pretty lame ideas/statements on me personally , which is typical of the right whingers when they don't have facts or unable to continue debating an issue, attack the man and his credibility.........now that's really sad !!

So what you guys call 100% undeniable facts, says it all......facts you just make up when needed to try and feel like you are having a win ....or if your notion of the past, present and future is threatened......which is happening here.

You think that BB supporting what I post is sad ....the real problem here is that "you guys are Klingons " holding onto old out dated views that the facts show are out of sync with the rest of Australia.....you are an ever decreasing minority , which for me is proof that Australia is healing and moving in the right direction towards a better Australia for everybody!

So todays great story is about one of our New Senators and her fight for Aboriginal women and sacred sites , .....educate yourselves and have a read.....

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/oct/24/i-am-a-survivor-a...

brutus Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 9:41am

indo-dreaming wrote:
5:20 onwards was the good bit, you have to really respect those that suffer so much but can still completely forgive, it wouldn't be an easy thing.

FFS Indo , you show empathy towards a holocaust victim , who makes a statement about not hating and you agree forgiveness wouldn't be an easy thing......as long as we don't bring up the First peoples issues in our backyard...such as the White Australia policy and the Stolen generation.........FFS it looks like you have no problems with empathy for white Jews, meanwhile BLM and our Indigenous Australians.......????

brutus Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 9:42am

views from the cockpit wrote:
Colonization is natures greatest activity.
From atoms to cells, bacteria, viruses, plants to humans.
Will never be stopped!!!

Colonization is very different to colonialism!

Hutchy 19 Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 9:45am

Brutus - when I first joined this thread I asked how we can help our First Nations reduce their resentment to the past horrors . Not all feel this of course . I was abused for asking this .

Unfortunately , I do know that resentments are a major contributor to substance addiction . Stu has already criticized this view . If interested you can check " al anon " for my knowledge on this topic .

indo-dreaming Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 10:21am

@Brutus

Not worried as such but more a type of disappointed in the lack of...mmm not sure of the word...but to be blunt i dont think your being honest with yourself.

I avoided using the word resentment a few weeks ago when Hutchy was because in all honestly i have no idea how all indigenous people feel, i think it would be a varied view no ethnic group thinks or feels all the same, and there is huge differences between groups that live in remote areas, regional areas and city areas and even bigger differences between individuals and communities or Indigenous people and those that identify as indigenous.

But the more we have talked the more i can see you clearly have lot's of resentment, the fact you feel non indigenous people should harbour some sort of guilt clearly shows this.

Im still not even sure if this on going guilt we should harbour is based on ethnicity we must be white and english ethnicity?. or is it just something anyone that decided to live in Australia suddenly takes on???

You still havent answer this...im very curious to know.

You say our view's are outdated, i think there is three views.

1. A very outdated one that see's indigenous people as lesser, apart from an extremely small minority this is left in the past.

2. One that seems progressive but seems to want to elevate indigenous culture to some magical place, talks about truth telling but then ignores important aspects like problems of culture, and tries to shift blame to others via things like colonialism.

As i pointed out, it's not something those in PNG can do, but apparently according to you these similar issues seen there (even worse actually) are also the result of a much shorter period of colonialism that had minimal practical effect.

3. A more progressive view that says, stop making excuses and own your problems, you are no less than me but you are also not better than me, your culture like any culture has positives and negatives, we are here to help you but we can't make the changes needed only you guys can.

If the mindset never shifts from two to three, nothing will every change.

That's it plain and simple anything else is an excuse.

But like i said the other day, end of the day its completely irrelevant to me it doesn't affect me, outside of this thread its only something i give a passing thought too when i read or see the topic, and i honestly dont care about the money that will be wasted, its irreverent it will be wasted on something else anyway, things like treaties etc also irrelevant to me, id actually prefer they happen, I'm even leaning towards changing Australia day, both purely so people can then see these things change nothing, in exactly the same way Krudd saying Sorry changed nothing.

GuySmiley Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 11:51am

hey hutchy, addictions can come in all shapes and sizes including relentless commenting online forums.

brutus Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 12:42pm

Indo...if I am not being honest with myself , is that why you dismiss nearly everything that I post ?

If I understand correctly you came to Australia as an immigrant in the early 60's?

Was this under the White Australia policy ?

I think you see resentment where in fact its , frustration and sadness as I learn more about Australia....having said that I have never felt so positive on where Australia is heading as a Nation and the incorporation of our First peoples culture good and bad into the National identity......this is happening now......and increasingly, nearly all Australians are learning about the First peoples current issues, past injustices that are being exposed , so where there was once sadness and anger , there is a genuine healing taking place which is all about forgiveness , and rebuilding a better future for all of us no matter what creed or color.

so your 3 categories.......

1) this is the Terra Nulus syndrome, where indigenous people were not considered humans and were treaded accordingly.....this is pure white colonialism!
can you comment positively on the White Australia policy?

2) I think you are trying to say do-gooders who try and understand the affects of Colonialism , and the negative affects the colonial ideology has brought to all of us.........no blame , just view the facts , be sad and angry , but the issues need healing by all! of us ...you will not acknowledge the problems and why, so that's why I believe you are becoming a relic of a bygone era, thankfully !

3) your so called progressive view....is typical of the right....take no responsibility for the past , don't learn the lessons of the past , put the responsibility back on the victims and ask them to solve the problems that have been created by others.....which is you creating and us and them situation.....very very divisive ....
" we are to help you , but we can't help you , only you guys can!" wow spoken like someone who doesn't want Australia to become a cosmopolitan Nation.....and passes the buck back to the victims.
We are all Australians , so your point #3 shows how you don't see Australia's First peoples as your own which is the base root of the problem......

the fact that you say..... "But like i said the other day, end of the day its completely irrelevant to me it doesn't affect me, outside of this thread its only something i give a passing thought too when i read or see the topic, and i honestly dont care about the money that will be wasted, its irreverent it will be wasted on something else anyway, things like treaties etc also irrelevant to me, id actually prefer they happen, I'm even leaning towards changing Australia day, both purely so people can then see these things change nothing, in exactly the same way Krudd saying Sorry changed nothing."

in your World nothing changed by saying sorry....in your world you don't care about what is an Australian as it's irrelevant , just as the treaty is irrelevant......

So it really is New Australians like you, that need to have a history lessons and deal with the current day issues that the past has delivered to us all...as a collective......and that Indo is why I keep saying yours and Hutchy's views are from a bygone era....your views are now a minority.....but we keep learning , forgiving, healing and we are a lot better for it!

gragagan Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 1:25pm

Just my take on a very sensitive issue. The way I see it, every non-indigenous person living in Australia today is reaping the benefits of past injustices against Indigenous Australians. It doesn't matter if your descendants came here on the first fleet, or if you moved here last week. Every Australian resident needs to recognise what happened, accept that it did happen and that it was wrong, and find ways to heal past injustices. I'm not sure how though.
Just the other week I was researching gold around Ballina, and came across the story of the Black Head massacre. Never heard of it before.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/171989519

Just one of many from around here it seems.

indo-dreaming Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 2:21pm

@Brutus

You have previously said you also believe all the issues* in PNG are also a result of colonisation, which had far less impact on the majority of the populations lives and ended almost 50 years ago and 99% of the population in PNG are Papuans.

So how do they sort out their issues?

They are already self governed, no one left to sign to treaties with, 99.999% black so basically no issues with racism

* In many cases worst issues than in Aboriginal Australian communities.

brutus Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 2:30pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
@Brutus

You have previously said you also believe all the issues* in PNG are also a result of colonisation, which had far less impact on the majority of the populations lives and ended almost 50 years ago and 99% of the population in PNG are Papuans.

So how do they sort out their issues?

They are already self governed, no one left to sign to treaties with, 99.999% black so basically no issues with racism

* In many cases worst issues than in Aboriginal Australian communities.

Indo, nah wasn't me on PNG....I don't know a lot about PNG and it's issues .......are you able to answer a question I keep putting to you.....how do you view the White Australia policy ?

brutus Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 2:37pm

gragagan wrote:
Just my take on a very sensitive issue. The way I see it, every non-indigenous person living in Australia today is reaping the benefits of past injustices against Indigenous Australians. It doesn't matter if your descendants came here on the first fleet, or if you moved here last week. Every Australian resident needs to recognise what happened, accept that it did happen and that it was wrong, and find ways to heal past injustices. I'm not sure how though.
Just the other week I was researching gold around Ballina, and came across the story of the Black Head massacre. Never heard of it before.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/171989519

Just one of many from around here it seems.

yeah a lot of stories coming out now...you hit the nail on the head...."WE, need to heal " , but first se need to learn what to heal from.....which is part of the healing process.....

Yes there was a problem!
1) The Problem has had an adverse affect on us all !
2) So now lets look at all the issues that have created even more issues today....and "WE , will all try and understand the issues and then we can open a dialogue on how best to fix it.
3) We then come up with solutions and actions...

pretty bloody simple for some of us!

bluediamond Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 4:50pm

Yep great post grajagan.
And loving reading your in depth well informed observations Brutus. Theres so much to take away from your posts.
Cheers.

indo-dreaming Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 5:22pm

brutus wrote:
Indo, nah wasn't me on PNG....I don't know a lot about PNG and it's issues .......are you able to answer a question I keep putting to you.....how do you view the White Australia policy ?

Okay fair enough i owe you an apology i looked back on the pages and you didnt have that view as such you avoided that topic and only made a broad comment on that issue of how ex-colonial run countries struggle with their independence.

So if PNGs issues aren't a result of colonisation, then you have to admit they are either cultural based issues or as a result of a culture being isolated for so long then being thrust into a modern world or a combination. (as i suggest)

The evidence of issues being cultural based in PNG is overwhelming, but the evidence of many indigenous issues also being cultural based is also very strong (pointed out in post in early pages)

indo-dreaming Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 5:34pm

Regarding White Australia policy, it was implemented 120 years ago and ended over 50 years ago, not all that relevant to today, today we rank as one of the most ethnical diverse countries in the world. (seems the most ethical diverse country in the world https://eccv.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Census2016_JUNE282017.pdf )

Many countries around the world though aren't very multicultural and other than the original people really only have expats etc China, Japan, Indonesia etc, funny enough we dont view tham as racist or something, while developed countries like Aust, USA, UK, Canada etc are among some of the most ethical diverse but still get a lot of demonisation aimed at them.

Its funny preservation of some cultures is seen as being a must, but preservation of other cultures is almost seen as racism, strange world.

IMHO Singapore has the right idea multicultural but a smart multicultural, was interesting to read the other day how they have policy for public housing areas that has to reflect the whole ethnic diversity of Singapore and not just one group to ensure they don't get problems seen in some other countries.

bluediamond Sunday, 24 Oct 2021 at 10:55pm

@indo said.. "regarding White Australia policy, it was implemented 120 years ago and ended over 50 years ago,not all that relevant to today, today we rank as one of the most ethnical diverse countries in the world. (seems the most ethical diverse country in the world"

Not relevant today, unless you're an aboriginal Australian who's 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation relatives lived through that trauma and carry the scars today,. Surely you can understand this simple logic iindo. An innate part of being an aboriginal Australian in today's society is being brought up with the trauma of past generations directly linked to them. Wouldn't it be?

indo-dreaming Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 7:55am

Even if this idea had any merit, wouldn't we see this effect gradually fade with time and each generation???

Remembering that even though the policy was officially ended 50 years ago, the way it was implemented by that stage was very very different to 100 years ago, (forgot the name of the vote) but remember the vote by Australians on an Aboriginal matter that Hutchy brought up that was back further than 50 year's and showed even by then general Australian attitudes were very different. (was quite an eye opener actually)

We would also see the most remote communities that were more isolated from the effects having the least problems, not the most.

I have absolutely no doubt you and others have only good will, but ignoring the much bigger cultural factors at play does nobody any favours, and off course the factors that have nothing to do with ethnicity/culture and that's the fact that people without purpose especially employment living in social economic disadvantage communities always have these issues at some level.

The big problem is to admit this you have to say a cultural change is needed which to most would be seen as destroying a culture that people have now put up on a pedestal and basically say it's shit doesn't stink, it would also mean that the answers to solving problems in remote communities would be to encourage them to live elsewhere where there is employment, which would also be seen as culture destroying even racist especially seeing connection to traditional lands etc is always talked about as highly important.

The result is the problems will never be solved, I'm guessing you are about my age quite a bit younger than Brutus and Hutchy, so even when those two a gone we will see it all continue and one day you might even look back and say hmm that like bastard Indo might have been right, shit still hasn't changed.

BTW. PNG never had any similar policy, how do you explain their situation?

brutus Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 9:17am

indo-dreaming wrote:
brutus wrote:
Indo, nah wasn't me on PNG....I don't know a lot about PNG and it's issues .......are you able to answer a question I keep putting to you.....how do you view the White Australia policy ?

Okay fair enough i owe you an apology i looked back on the pages and you didnt have that view as such you avoided that topic and only made a broad comment on that issue of how ex-colonial run countries struggle with their independence.

So if PNGs issues aren't a result of colonisation, then you have to admit they are either cultural based issues or as a result of a culture being isolated for so long then being thrust into a modern world or a combination. (as i suggest)

The evidence of issues being cultural based in PNG is overwhelming, but the evidence of many indigenous issues also being cultural based is also very strong (pointed out in post in early pages)

Indo , any country that has been ruled by colonialists suffered damage to their existing values and culture.......life was never the same again for any of the indigenous people who were conquered militarily and economically .
yes there were some material benefits colonialists brought with them such as infrastructure/education/ guns / etc.........but the negatives out weigh the positives as ,slavery and the stripping of resources from each new colonized Country combined with the Missionaries who tried to strip the Indigenous peoples of their culture.

So here's where it get's interesting as colonialism brought material things and tried to replace their culture with a colonial version of Christianity .......while making slavery one of their biggest profit sources , and stripping the lands of their riches.....

try reading "the positives and negatives article" https://www.positivenegativeeffects.com/colonialism

PNG/African Country's etc have all suffered the consequences of colonialism.....as have we here in Australia......

Just so you know I lived through the White Australia policy , and did most of my schooling during this period...so I actually was affected by it...as was anybody born in the last 50 years....that's why we can still talk to people who were there , who experienced what is was like to not considered human , and treated as such....

the evidence that you provide is a short view compared to a comprehensive view of all the causes and affects of this dark period in our history....

brutus Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 9:41am

Indo dismissing the White Australia policy as not relevant shows your immigrant status of not growing up under WAP........."
indo-dreaming wrote:

Regarding White Australia policy, it was implemented 120 years ago and ended over 50 years ago, not all that relevant to today, today we rank as one of the most ethnical diverse countries in the world. (seems the most ethical diverse country in the world https://eccv.org.au/wp-"content/uploads/2018/03/Census2016_JUNE282017.pdf )
Indo saying the White Australia policy is "not at all relevant today!".........as you said it was officially abolished 50 years ago.....I spent all my school years under the white Australia policy...the racism was horrific as I lived part of my life not being considered human enough to vote and was treated as such.
I have enormous empathy and sadness for all the blackfellas , Australia wide who lived as sub humans , were treated as such and then to suffer the dispossession of family through the Stolen Generation policy.....make the blackfellas white........

Indo there are so many people still alive , including myself that were actually on the receiving end of the affects of the White Australia Policy.......so it's not irrelevant today, because there are still a shit load of people who were adversely affected.......and in traditional First Nations Culture they are called the elders.....all elders were and are still affected by last centuries White Australia policy....

So isn't it incredible that with all the misery suffered...there is non blame , there is a sense of bitterness sometimes .....but to see what has happened to the Australia's mentality / psyche in regards to the treatment and now embracing First Nations culture, in incredibly heartening and brings hope for a much better Australia for all of us!

brutus Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 4:27pm

Indo , an ever changing History ...new facts brought to life ....more clarity .......

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/do-you-have-a-tasmanian-conv...

indo-dreaming Monday, 25 Oct 2021 at 5:12pm

As i said before we re-started this conversation we are just going to go around in circles.

It was all addressed on about page 8.

brutus Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 10:01am

indo-dreaming wrote:
As i said before we re-started this conversation we are just going to go around in circles.
It was all addressed on about page 8.

Indo , just trying to point out that your claim history doesn't change much , is not true.....it's been a very interesting conversation as I try to understand why people like you are so rusted onto your views.
I think it's pretty obvious why you just like to deal with the here and now , and dismiss any changes to Australia's colonial history.....you have not grown up being an Australian , but an immigrant .......I think all of us have residual hangovers from our upbringings , as the world is changing so fast with technology and the questioning of our past/present and future has never been this intense......we have the choice to make our lives better , but only through acknowledging Australia's past , learning the lessons of the past ......without a foundation of truth .....we have a fragmented dismal future!

goofyfoot Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 10:15am

“ .you have not grown up being an Australian , but an immigrant ....”. Wtf !?
He was born here Brutus. Just like you.

Enjoyed listening to your podcast on Dirty Water yesterday, loved the story about you and WL out at that huge Victorian left hander. Wild times

overthefalls Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 10:48am

History is not set in stone; it is constantly revised as new historical sources (and interpretations of those sources) arise.

brutus Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 10:57am

goofyfoot wrote:
“ .you have not grown up being an Australian , but an immigrant ....”. Wtf !?
He was born here Brutus. Just like you.

Enjoyed listening to your podcast on Dirty Water yesterday, loved the story about you and WL out at that huge Victorian left hander. Wild times

I thought he mentioned that he came here in the 60's from Holland ......I was brought up in a family that was here since the last century.....story , My Grandfather fought in WW I in the trenches ...sticks his head up one day and there's a German coming at him......they both firs their rifles.....Pops gets shot in the arm , he wounds the German in the leg. there were only the 2 of them....because the German cant walk, Pops helps him back to the Allies camp where he becomes a prisoner of war......on the way back to camp they become friends and are in contact with each other for the rest of their lives......so I was brought up in a middle class 10th generation Australian/ Pommy family....that was my heritage of being Australian....then of course came the later teenage years where weird stuff was happening to me....which I found out was what we call today...racism, ostracised because I was the only dark kid in school....was a trying period, but the school of life brought me back.....
So my life /Australia experiences are different to an immigrants....there is absolutely no negative from me on immigrants ( the more the better !) , but they have different cultural historys to what I have had......

that's why I say ,"We, OURS , US.......when I talk about being Australian.....being inclusive of everybody !!

goofyfoot Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 11:29am

If that's the case then my mistake, I was under the impression he was Australian born.

udo Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 12:09pm

Oz born / Heritage
Dutch grandparents on one side

brutus Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 12:26pm

Udo ,Indo posted this so I think he arrived here in the 60's , am I reading this right? ,"In regard to feeling any guilt about colonial times, why on earth would i feel any guilt about things others did long ago that had zero to do with me?

My family only arrived in Australia in the 60s, and i sure dont feel guilt because my mother was born in England. (lived in Africa and Fiji from a toddler to late teens)

udo wrote:
Oz born / Heritage
Dutch grandparents on one side

udo Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 12:38pm

Obviously both my grandparents on one side were Dutch, just because i have Dutch heritage doesn't make me Dutch, even if i did eat a lot of Dutch food when i was young and learnt some Dutch, went to Dutch festivals etc I also had a Welsh grandmother and English grandfather, i don't get to pick one of those ethnicity's either, i probably have some DNA like many people from all around the world if i do i don't get to pick and choose the one i like either.

Like many I'm just a mixed race mongrel Aussie.

goofyfoot Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 1:05pm

What if he was born in the 70's in Australia brutus?
He carries on like an old prick but I don't think he's that old, anyway, I'm sure the man himself will be along shortly to clarify

Hutchy 19 Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 1:59pm

Brutus "then of course came the later teenage years where weird stuff was happening to me....which I found out was what we call today...racism, ostracised because I was the only dark kid in school..."

Most immigrants had exactly the same happen to them as you did because they were different . My mum's family did ( Dutch ) . All are now naturalised Australians and love the country .

I might be wrong but it sounds like you had a good childhood . You were then bullied at school ( same with me ) which you blame on racism caused by colonisation .

You are constantly talking about negatives of colonisation done by the English . No answer to my question on which other nationality would have been preferable .

You want to know more about the negative effects colonisation caused . How much worse can it get ?
As I have said every colonised people have had exactly the same happen to them . Do you really think you will find something new that will help ?

Colonisation is in the DNA of humans , animals and plants . It is GOOD . Look how Covid travelled . Look how the first people arrived here .

indo-dreaming Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 1:58pm

Just to clarify.

Born in 74 in Australia,

Fathers Dutch came out when he was 11, his parents were both Dutch.

Mother born in England but moved to Africa (Rodessia/Zimbabwe) as a todler until shit went down, then lived in Fiji until her 20s then Aus.

Actually me and Udo have the same mongrel mix her father was English her mother Welsh

In Africa mum always got in trouble as a naughty tom boy who played with the African kids when wasn't suppose too and then her best friends in Fiji were fijian and indian, Mum always gravitted towards people of colour and other cultures as do i.

Im Aussie the Dutch aspect is close to irrelevant to me other than liking some Dutch snacks i cant speak any Dutch, same as UK aspect, but i guess im now cultrally a little bit Indonesian, we speak mixed language at home, every second meal indonesian, married in traditional wedding in Indo, we have to do all types of traditional thing for different events like wife's pregnancy or kids births etc.

udo Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 2:02pm

Just to clarify - Indo they are your words i posted ...he he .

indo-dreaming Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 2:19pm

Ha ha okay, it did sound familiar, dont remember any of those Dutch words now though, but some words in Indo are of Dutch origin.

brutus Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 2:52pm

udo wrote:
Obviously both my grandparents on one side were Dutch, just because i have Dutch heritage doesn't make me Dutch, even if i did eat a lot of Dutch food when i was young and learnt some Dutch, went to Dutch festivals etc I also had a Welsh grandmother and English grandfather, i don't get to pick one of those ethnicity's either, i probably have some DNA like many people from all around the world if i do i don't get to pick and choose the one i like either.

Like many I'm just a mixed race mongrel Aussie.

Udo , my point is with immigrants , that they arrive here with their culture intact and have not lived in Australia , so it takes time to assimilate into an Australian , sometimes takes a few generations........this is not a criticism , it's an observation.....that's why it's healthy to discuss ....

What does the Australian National Identity look like , why and what do we see as the future for the next generations~

indo-dreaming Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 3:07pm

I dont agree most people assimilate very quickly to Australian society, only ones that have real issues are those that don't speak the language or have cultural or religious practises that don't fit in well with the majority of the population, these people normal live in a type of comunity bubble anyway.

This national identity thing is completely different for everyone it depends on the perspective of the person even influenced by their own lifestyle or where they live, city, regional etc

For example the average person in North Qld would view things very different to the average person in Melbourne.

What people see for the future is also very different, that's why we dont all vote the same.

Hutchy 19 Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 3:44pm

Brutus - my mother's family took less than a sixth of a generation to assimilate . They all quickly ( even my mother's mother and father ) learned the language . My mother still has an accent . They weren't religious but they could have been Lutheran or Jewish and it would not have mattered . They all got jobs .

I do understand the effects on indigenous populations . It would make no difference if the number of massacres they experienced went from 500 to 600 . It would also make difference if the number they committed went from 50 to a 100 .

I am not an expert on Australian history or what Batman did . I know he was an early settler and that a few places have his name . If he is proved to be a bastard I have no problem changing the names . Otherwise it makes little difference to me .

Your childhood was similar to mine . Wonderful early then tough as a teenager at Mullum because I was different . It wasn't racist . I hold no grudges for being bullied because I was different . All teenagers around the world can do the same and be cruel . I still love the place .

The Red Indians are also special . Wonderful languages , traditions and beliefs . Polynesians , Africans and English the same . Same with our first nations . The Egyptians probably think their civilisation is older than our first nations .

Our first people are NOT more special than anyone else imo . We are ALL just as special as everyone else .

One person one vote .

bluediamond Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 5:48pm

Well FWIW, i went to school in the rough hood of Dandenong Sth. 85% of the kids had a surname that ended with 'ski', being 85% were Albanian. Tough kids too that lot!!! The rest were vietnamese, Russian and maybe 2% stock standard aussies. Yes, there were confrontations, there was bullying and fights, always called skippy in a derogatory manner. But i don't get on here and cry about it every 5 minutes like Hutchy does. Huttch you fail to make the distinction between the historical racism suffered by indigenous Australians, and you, an outsider with no historical trauma associated to your mob and their place in society AND their very own homeland.
On another point, a few years back i found myself in Mildura, walking the streets at 2am to catch a bus. A group of indigenous young bucks were wandering in the same street. I could tell they were pissed so hung back til they passed. Kept walking after that but hadnt seen the one that was lagging behind. He must have stopped for a piss. Next minute he came up to me and punched me hard in the mouth. I had a big backpack so it took a second to drop it, and then fairly return the favour, told him to f off, and he did. It rattled me a bit, but it made me think alot. There was definitely anger. At the bus stop the whole mob had rallied and come looking for me. 30 or so. Luckily there was a bus there, not the one i had to catch but it got me the fark outta there. So there's two examples of reasons i could not give a fuck about the wellbeing of Indigenous Australians. But the thing is. I've had way worse altercations with white fellas, i've seen crew i know roam the streets looking for someone pissed just to beat up (when i was a grom). You cant judge someones actions based on their colour, but......it got me thinking. I thought alot after that about who these people were that i knew little about. I got to spend more time around them through travelling and soon realised, they're as Aussie as you and me, in the iconic cultural sense. We do share culture now. But most importantly, i began to want to know the real story, the one my parents never told me, the one that school brushed over and the one that folks like Indo and Hutch seem to want to be in so much denial about. So thats where i am today. Still learning. So so much to learn.
My biggest issue with all this, and the one i refuse to ignore, is that there are past injustices that we have ignored to help us live the priviledged life we lead in this country. Ignoring them, not confronting them, not finding solutions to repair the very obvious damage that still lingers. Well, in my opinion thats completely unacceptable. And i feel a high level of guilt and responsibility based on that. I think many do.
The conversation has to move forward, and if you listen, all indigenous voices are asking for the same things!!!!!!! You gotta listen though and understand that just because your beliefs mean alot to you, without the full picture (listening), they may actually be false.
Anyway, i know this won't get through to you, but there's alot to be gained from just attempting to learn, (hutchy you always are saying you know little, yet you comment the loudest!!?)

blindboy Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 5:51pm

Great stuff bd

bluediamond Tuesday, 26 Oct 2021 at 6:07pm

Cheers BB.

brutus Wednesday, 27 Oct 2021 at 8:46am

yeah BD , great personal stories and credit to you for looking answers to the issues you suffered....and realized that there was something a lot deeper and troubling called racism!
I could tell personal stories for days of bullying and abuse as a young fella in Warrnambool by blacks and whites.......but it was out of ignorance ......
I realize now that with Indo and Hutchy they have very different upbringings in a different timeline especially Indo....as I have said very different life experiences , where I had so many questions about why Australia was so racist , where did it come from, how could you stop it , what were the down sides what were the upsides if any??
Questions that are slowly being answered and the change in Australian attitudes has been enormous.......as the narrative of history has been challenged and changed so has the future of Australia , and for the better.......

Ok todays little snippet....Kwentin De Kock captain of South Africa T20 Cricket team refused to obey the South African Cricket board in taking a knee before the T20 game with the West Indies for BLM.......so he pulled out of the game and looks like the whole tournament , and now possibly ended his career......interesting he comes from Dutch/Afrikaans father...no mother and was brought up in rich Transvaal family.....https://www.theage.com.au/sport/cricket/de-kock-skips-t20-world-cup-game...

brutus Wednesday, 27 Oct 2021 at 5:35pm

So Quentin de Kock wouldn't bend the knee for BLM , has withdrawn from the team and looks like one of the best cricketers in the world , made a decision that ends his career......now that's standing up for what you believe , but why won't he talk about it?

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/cricket/de-kock-exposes-bitter-rift-that...