The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Blue - "BTW..^old white giys" is a term of endearment...just like Blowins "Japs""
It might be .
" White Australia Mentality " is definitely not .
I showed lots of court case findings that proved the Stolen Generation was NEVER government policy .
You started the thread , have never offered an idea that is constructive and now you head off sulking .
Typical form .
The thread calmed down and had some worthwhile discussions when you were away . I believe it will again in the future .
bluediamond wrote:BTW..^old white giys" is a term of endearment...just like Blowins "Japs"
I don't care at all about age or skin colour, but there's definitely an old white guy mentality thriving on here.
BD , how the fark did Japs come into it.......???
it's ironic when I was using the term "white culture? Blowin asked me if I could stop it as it offended him...so I asked how's Western Culture sound....ah much better!
there seems to be a negative connotation to the using of white these days , but then again Black has always been a cooler tone,LOL!
Connie - your writing style is so condescending . You are such a boar .
I have just read the first link - thanks for posting it .
The Uluru Statement looks like the 250 delegates wasted our money ( I wonder where they met and how much it cost ) . If lead by Turnbull it will , unfortunately , be all waffle .
Their finding that the Aboriginals and Torres Islanders need a voice is a nice outcome . My first thought is how is this achieved and then I read this -
"The Uluru Statement does not detail the structure of the Voice and how it will do its job. That is a process separate from achieving constitutional change. The Uluru Statement asks the Australian people to give their support at a referendum on a question of fundamental principle: that First Nations should have a Voice enshrined in the Constitution. The details including the functions, powers and processes of the Voice, will be worked out between government and First Nations and put into legislation. "
WTF - asking for a referendum to change the constitution with no detail ? Sounds just like something that lazy person Turnbull would propose . Nice waffle , no fucken substance .
The statement mentions how terrible is was getting rid of ATSIC . I remember it being run by a red headed bully called Mr Clarke . It was a complete farce and should have been put down .
Have you read what you have posted Connie What is so good for me to spend time reading in the other articles .
When is the referendum planed ? Sounds like a Blue Diamond plan . In the Never , Never .
I do wish I could have been more positive about the statement . Sad that they missed an opportunity to do some good !
Sorry, I can't help myself but... Oink!
Constance B Gibson wrote:
White people find the term white people uncomfortable because it's just another lazy racial label that tries to use one word to describe a whole range of ethic groups and if you lined up a group of Aussies labeled white you would actually find they have all types of backgrounds that aren't traditionally exactly white, like Greek, Italian, Spanish, my kids half Indonesian could be labeled white, one of my best mate's has Indigenous ancestry but im sure many would label him white.
Plus it's also often used in a negative way today, like white people are bad because some so called white people did bad shit in the past or white people represent this or that.
It's interesting that some punk/hardcore bands were way ahead in this area 30 to 40 years ago and called it out, but now these same artist these days would never have the balls to write these songs again as they would be way to scared of being cancelled or labeled white supremest or something, fuck that shit, be proud of who ever you are no matter your skin colour, brown, white, black, yellow, your skin colour or ethnicity, its all irrelevant as is anything done by people today or in the past that share you're ethnicity or skin colour.
NO FX Dont call me white
Don't call me white, don't call me white
Don't call me white, don't call me white
The connotations wearing my nerves thin
Could it be semantics generating the mess we're in?
I understand that language breeds stereotype
But what's the explanation for the malice, for the spite?
Don't call me white, don't call me white
Don't call me white, don't call me white
I wasn't brought here, I was born
Circumcised, categorized, allegiance sworn
Does this mean I have to take such shit
For being fair skinned? No!
I ain't a part of no conspiracy, I'm just you're average joe
Don't call me white, don't call me white
Don't call me white, don't call me white
Represents everything I hate
The soap shoved in the mouth to cleanse the mind
The vast majority of sheep
A buttoned collar, starched and bleached
Constricting veins, the blood flow to the brain slows
They're so fuckin ordinary white
Don't call me white, don't call me white
Don't call me white, don't call me white
Oh, we're better off this way?
Oh, say what you're gonna say
So go ahead and label me an asshole
'cause I can
Accept responsibility for what I've done
But not for who I am
Don't call me white, don't call me white
Don't call me white, don't call me white
Minor threat-Guilty of being white
Lyrics
I'm sorry
For something that I didn't do
Lynched somebody
But I don't know who
You blame me for slavery
A hundred years before I was born
Guilty of being white
I'm sorry
For something that I didn't do
Lynched somebody
But I don't know who
You blame me for slavery
A hundred years before I was born
Guilty of being white
I'm a convict (Guilty!)
Of a racist crime (Guilty!)
I've only served (Guilty!)
Nineteen years of my time
I'm sorry
For something that I didn't do
Lynched somebody
But I don't know who
You blame me for slavery
A hundred years before I was born
Guilty of being white
“ There are severe distractors, as soon as the conversation gets moving along.
Blowin, indo, blindboy, andy m, goofyfoot, d rex, old dog, hutchy19 and a few ive definitely forgotten. The same old pot-shots and the same old distractive techniques to move the conversation away from any real meaningful progress. Enjoy old white men”
Hahaha thanks for lumping me in with the rest of the crew BD!
You going to have a sook again soon and leave?
It’s not an airport mate, no need to announce your departure this time… fuckwit
BTW blue diamond, all the years I’ve been reading swellnet you’re the only person I’ve ever seen belittle someone on their surfing ability based on a photo they posted.
You’re a little self-righteous smug sad man who tries to portray a holier than thou image and it’s hilarious
Well said CBG
Constance B Gibson wrote:. In short, as teenager Mackaye was dreaming of a (white) xmas where one “dealt with people as individuals, not black and white,” and one in which he, as a white person, should "not be made to feel guilty for slavery or other historical instances where people of colour were oppressed", old mate Bondi simply countered:
"If you say, “Fuck this guilty shit, I ain’t gonna feel guilty, it’s not my fault.” [Black people] are going to say, “Well who the fuck’s fault is it?” It’s like, well, it’s nobody’s fault; it’s history. But the situation is that they’re still left with the remains of their historical past."
Bondi and Dictor charged Mackaye with imagining himself ahistorical: which is one of the most insidious manifestations of privilege.
.
All this highlight's the problem, and why this never ending cycle will never end, it's very damaging to all parties, but most damaging to the non white party.
If you don't get it, you don't get it, and probably never will.
But if the attitude doesn't change 100 years from now nothing will be different.
indo-dreaming wrote:Constance B Gibson wrote:. In short, as teenager Mackaye was dreaming of a (white) xmas where one “dealt with people as individuals, not black and white,” and one in which he, as a white person, should "not be made to feel guilty for slavery or other historical instances where people of colour were oppressed", old mate Bondi simply countered:
"If you say, “Fuck this guilty shit, I ain’t gonna feel guilty, it’s not my fault.” [Black people] are going to say, “Well who the fuck’s fault is it?” It’s like, well, it’s nobody’s fault; it’s history. But the situation is that they’re still left with the remains of their historical past."
Bondi and Dictor charged Mackaye with imagining himself ahistorical: which is one of the most insidious manifestations of privilege.
.
All this highlight's the problem, and why this never ending cycle will never end, it's very damaging to all parties, but most damaging to the non white party.
If you don't get it, you don't get it, and probably never will.
But if the attitude doesn't change 100 years from now nothing will be different.
Indo, the attitude is changing , BLM proved that with younger people wanting to engage with their First Nations Story/culture and history. and the start of Treaty talks in Victoria.....in the last 10 years we have seen "Welcome to Country " become an institution now. We have seen the outrage at a mining Co desecrating an ancient site the list goes on of positive actions that are changing the understanding of non-indigenous Australians who are now starting to embrace our indigenous culture.....
It's a lot of older Australians that still have bias's and the remnants of Australia's white colonial past......I think there has been huge progress and it feels like we are just getting started in unravelling the truth of the past , understand where our First Nations people coming from and what they want and need....and not what we think they should have!
' I find your term " non white party " very strange ! is that how you differentiate people , whites and non-whites ?
Connie -You write -"This is why this is a deliberate decision in the wording of the Uluru Statement. A note to save time: "
Your second post says this -"The Commonwealth parliament already has power, for instance, to make laws that facilitate the “interaction” between Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples and the Commonwealth parliament and government. But, at the moment, the parliament is under no obligation to create these interactions."
The government have the power NOW FFS .
The Australian people are not stupid . Any referendum that asks for changes to be made without explaining how it will be done ( the detail ) will get a NO vote . How would the Aboriginals and Torres Straight Islanders feel about that ?
The same happened with the referendum to change the monarchy ( Turnbull involved again ) . Most Australian do think ( I do ) that we should be ( and are ) marsters of our own destiny . My problem was that they did not explain how a President would be chosen ( the detail ) . Most Australians had the same view and it got a NO .
May I ask that you cut and paste ( you are good at that ) a piece from the articles you ask me to read so I can see they contain a good suggestion .
Brutus you say -"It's a lot of older Australians that still have bias's and the remnants of Australia's white colonial past..."
I say you are way wrong . They may still have long help views and principles but not related to any bias re colonialism .
Many older Australians ( esp in Melb ) are immigrants . We are a multicultural society . Please try and catch up to what real Australians think . You will be pleasantly surprised .
It is you that can't get over colonialism , not most Australians .
Oh Hutchy ...can you comment on the White Australia policy , how and why it was instigated and what were the issues arising from legislation that existed from 1901 - 1975?
Immigrants from Italy/Greece arrived in numbers in the 60's and 70's...they were called wogs and dagos etc , racism was rife...bit like when the Vietnamese arrived in Australia , the yellow peril has arrived....then the Middle East , lebbos etc......you will find a lot of older migrants suffered also racist BS based on the white colonial past , just as our First Nations people ...you and Indo have a foundation of colonial views/bias's!
Brutus you say -"It's a lot of older Australians that still have bias's and the remnants of Australia's white colonial past..."
I say you are way wrong . They may still have long help views and principles but not related to any bias re colonialism .
Many older Australians ( esp in Melb ) are immigrants . We are a multicultural society . Please try and catch up to what real Australians think . You will be pleasantly surprised .
It is you that can't get over colonialism , not most Australians .
Brutus - My mothers family came out from Holland after the war . I know all about wogs and white wogs .
I was bullied at school for being a yank ( which I wasn't ) .
The racism was a cause of people being confronted with something different , something they didn't want to understand .
The exact same today ( and always has ) with children all around the world . How would an Asian , Black or White American go in an all Aboriginal school ?
What caused Nethanderals to die off ?
The Japanese and Koreans don't want their blood mixed and are imo very racist .
Absolutely NOTHING to do with colonialism .
Hutchy , answer the question ...where, how and why did Australia's White Australia policy come from?
I will try .
I believe I read a long time ago it came about due to land use problems caused by Chinese in the NT .
After digging out all the gold the Chinese were doing land practices that the authorities didn't like .
Nothing to do with our First people . They never tried to throw them out .
If it was related to the First nations it would have been brought in much earlier .
Also I respond better with a please and not a demand .
Hutchy, I recommend that you read WEH Stanner “The Dreaming and Other Essays” for a pretty good summary of the reality of Australia’s colonial and post-colonial policies toward the indigenous population, starting with the initial divergences from the direction that Arthur Phillip was given by the Crown to establish a settlement while maintaining amity with the ‘natives’. It broke down within months. Punitive missions to take heads etc. all recorded.
But Stanner’s main target was the ‘culture of indifference’ to the fate of the aborigines.
I’d suggest that maybe stop with sitting back asking people for ‘proof’ of genocidal policies, while ignoring the reality that sits in plain sight. The fact that there might not have explicitly genocidal policies is irrelevant if the actions of generations toward ‘assimilation’ was focused on achievement of the same thing.
Thank etrip for your suggested reading .
I would suggest that you stop asking me to stop asking for proof off genocidal policies . I have already given up asking .
As you said "The fact that there might not have explicitly genocidal policies is irrelevant if the actions of generations toward ‘assimilation’ was focused on achievement of the same thing."
I think knowing that there were not deliberate genocidal policies would be a good thing for our First Nations . They are being told the opposite . You can disagree as nearly all on this thread share your view .
Exactly the same with Stolen Generation !
As you said
etarip wrote:Hutchy, I recommend that you read WEH Stanner “The Dreaming and Other Essays” for a pretty good summary of the reality of Australia’s colonial and post-colonial policies toward the indigenous population, starting with the initial divergences from the direction that Arthur Phillip was given by the Crown to establish a settlement while maintaining amity with the ‘natives’. It broke down within months. Punitive missions to take heads etc. all recorded.
But Stanner’s main target was the ‘culture of indifference’ to the fate of the aborigines.
Thats the where the quote that Andy didnt like came from that is used on the Dark Emu Debunked website.
“They [the Australian Aborigines] are, of course, nomads — hunters and foragers who grow nothing, build nothing, and stay nowhere long. They make almost no physical mark on the environment…They move about, carrying their scant possessions, in small bands of anything from ten to sixty persons…Their tools and crafts, meagre — pitiably meagre — though they are, have nonetheless been good enough to let them win the battle for survival, and to win it comfortably at that. With no pottery, no knowledge of metals, no wheel, no domestication of animals, no agriculture, they have still been able to people the entire continent…”
- W.E.H. Stanner, The Dreaming & Other Essays, Black Inc Agenda, 2010, p 64,65 & 70 -"
Thanks for that Indo . I was concerned it would be another biased link I was being sent to .
I will now make a point to try and check it out .
“I think knowing that there were not deliberate genocidal policies would be a good thing for our First Nations”
you’ve missed the point, again. Whether the aims of policy were stated as such is irrelevant if the execution of those policies resulted in an outcome. There’s nuance in there. I don’t think you’re picking up on that. ‘Assimilation’ was used to justify cultural erasure.
Stanner is good. It’s dated. There’s modern academic criticism of Stanners approach, but he was publishing from the 1930s to 1970s. It’s very forward thinking. He was (still is?) a highly respected anthropologist and leader of the movement to support constitutional change in 1967. His focus and experience was on tribal groups in the NT from memory. He also served in WW2 as an officer in the NAOU - the precusor to modern NORFORCE.
Read it in context and don’t cherry pick quotes to support a position contrary to what the author intended. I’ve made a point about nomadic lifestyles on this thread before.
“I think knowing that there were not deliberate genocidal policies would be a good thing for our First Nations”
Jesus h Christ hutch that’s offensive. Semantics. They were fuckin murdered. Literally murdered by the thousands. Massacre sites litter this country. Bred out. Stolen. Approved officially or silently approved. at the very least ignored. Their ancestors are alive today hopefully not reading your gutter talk for cheap thrills. Have some heart mate.
Your attitude is dying. It’s minority and it’s not being replaced by “wokeness”. Just fucking realism. Deal with it.
Walk down a residential street in an outback town. Dogs are still bred and trained to be aggressive towards blackfellas. Two aboriginal kids walk past someones yard and the hounds go ballistic , two white kids walk past , nothing. You don't think they don't get it ?
The attitude is slowly dying but it still exists.
Bonza - I am amazed that most people on this site can't see that there is a huge difference between a deliberate government policy and not .
I am sure I will get shouted down for using this analogy .
Does anyone think that if Hitler did NOT have a policy to kill the Jews that the massacres would have have lead to millions being killed ? Gas chambers being built ?
I don't .
Do you think it would have made a difference to the Jews ? I do .
Government sponsored genocide is a slur the German people are still trying to deal with . Australians don't have to .
Bonza - perhaps you will understand this example ?
State sponsored Terrorism versus terrorists that just happen to be based in a country .
A MASSIVE difference .
We have and will go to war against a State that deliberately sponsors terrorism .
And you write this abuse . "Their ancestors are alive today hopefully not reading your gutter talk for cheap thrills. Have some heart mate."
There are ancestors of the government leaders who you accuse of committing genocide alive today . I hope they are not reading your views .
How is your idea going to put up knee high fences up to stop cane toads ? Now that is a cheap thrill comment .
tubeshooter wrote:Walk down a residential street in an outback town. Dogs are still bred and trained to be aggressive towards blackfellas. Two aboriginal kids walk past someones yard and the hounds go ballistic , two white kids walk past , nothing. You don't think they don't get it ?
The attitude is slowly dying but it still exists.
Are they really trained or is it a natural reaction???
As i know in Indo dogs totally know the difference between Indonesians and westerners and they sure aren't taught it, you walk into a neighbourhood or village in Indo and the local dogs will go crazy, but wont bat an eye lid at locals or even non locals Indonesians like my wife..
It's really weird, ive experienced it so many times and ive seen it happen to other westerners, and im a full on dog lover, generally speaking dogs love me and in Oz it's rare for me not to be able to win a dog over even within seconds, dogs are super weird in this regard they seem to have a different sense.
BTW. Im obviously not suggesting dogs are racist, but they have some ability to pick up differences between known and unknown or something, it's weird.
Surely any other guys that have traveled Indo have had this experience?
@indo , my wife’s family dogs won’t come near me or let me pat them . I can feed them meat instead of the scraps the family gives them and they still bark at me and always keep their distance . There is only one other white guy in this area , a retired Australian married to my wife’s aunty . Dogs treat him the same way . I’ve always been a dog lover and generally like you , win them over pretty quickly. I had a little dachshund when I lived there that I had adopted from a bloke who was mistreating it , great little companion, unfortunately some wild beach dogs ripped his throat out .
My parents had a small poodle . For some reason she didn't like a close friend who was of Greek heritage . Olive skin and black curly hair .
Whenever he visited the dog would freak out . My mate and I had a laugh about it just the other day .
I don't think my mum trained or purposely bought a breed that hated Greeks but maybe tubeshooter is right . ha ha .
Hutchy , how's your reading going of the white Australia policy.....why/how and what affects did it have on Australia.
You might understand genocidal needs , as the white colonialist mentality was part of the White Australia policy...so stop asking for proof , when you won't read and understand Australias Policies of the 20th century!
Hutchy 19 wrote:Thank etrip for your suggested reading .
I would suggest that you stop asking me to stop asking for proof off genocidal policies . I have already given up asking .
As you said "The fact that there might not have explicitly genocidal policies is irrelevant if the actions of generations toward ‘assimilation’ was focused on achievement of the same thing."
I think knowing that there were not deliberate genocidal policies would be a good thing for our First Nations . They are being told the opposite . You can disagree as nearly all on this thread share your view .
Exactly the same with Stolen Generation !
As you said
I understand is as Dogs are pack animals, not racist. If you’re not part of ‘their’ pack, then they don’t like / trust you. If their ‘pack’ is predominantly Indonesian or Caucasian or whatever then they react to ‘others’. That’s compounded if the vibe of the humans to another group is hostile or fearful.
We don’t expect dogs to rationalise this. I definitely expect humans to. And I can’t stand humans who encourage it.
Our 2yo Kelpie is smart as a tack. Rescued from a farm a year ago and had some anxiety issues. She’s taken a while to get used to our friend from down the street who has severe cerebral palsy. He comes to hang out and play with our kids, taking them through blindfolded games etc. It’s been a journey.
Supafreak wrote:@indo , my wife’s family dogs won’t come near me or let me pat them . I can feed them meat instead of the scraps the family gives them and they still bark at me and always keep their distance . There is only one other white guy in this area , a retired Australian married to my wife’s aunty . Dogs treat him the same way . I’ve always been a dog lover and generally like you , win them over pretty quickly. I had a little dachshund when I lived there that I had adopted from a bloke who was mistreating it , great little companion, unfortunately some wild beach dogs ripped his throat out .
Yeah it's weird.
When some of us lads do a trip away together, between ourselves we become the most rascist, sexist, mysogynistic, homophopic, amoral, abusive shitheads we can be.
And we laugh our heads off at what filth we can plumb.
P.S. And the lads includes a man of colour and a father of a gay son.
Brutus - I have commented , as demanded , on how I read , a long time ago , its genesis .
A reaction to Chinese land practices in the NT. I also said it wasn't brought in to throw the First nation people out . I also said IF it was directed solely at our first nation people in would have been brought in much earlier .
As the expert please tell me how I am wrong . ( Notice the please ) .
Don't be rude expecting me to do research . I wouldn't do it to you or expect you to tell me everything .
I’m pretty sure it was primarily a response to Chinese Immigration on the goldfields in the late 19th century. Nothing to do with aboriginal peoples. They had other discriminatory laws for that, and the official view was that they were dying out anyway.
I think behaviour can be bred into dogs ,Hunting dogs have traits bred into them , any pig hunter knows to get stock from other hunting dogs , they just seem to instinctively know what to do with very little training ,. Same with working cattle sheep dogs etc.
We had to re home a blue heeler pup that was just off the rails when our aboriginal friends visited. It was fucking embarrassing . It actually came from a litter from a farmer in Walgett.
I'm not 100% sure if it get's ingrained in their DNA somehow , but from my experience , it's definitely plausible.
Many dogs are still trained to be aggressive towards aboriginals out west though ,and the methods , which I won't outline here, are ugly , and so are the people who use them.
Hutchy 19 wrote:Bonza - perhaps you will understand this example ?
State sponsored Terrorism versus terrorists that just happen to be based in a country .
A MASSIVE difference .
We have and will go to war against a State that deliberately sponsors terrorism .
And you write this abuse . "Their ancestors are alive today hopefully not reading your gutter talk for cheap thrills. Have some heart mate."
There are ancestors of the government leaders who you accuse of committing genocide alive today . I hope they are not reading your views .
How is your idea going to put up knee high fences up to stop cane toads ? Now that is a cheap thrill comment .
Hutch. Cane toads need water to breed. Cane toads are very good at at traversing large distances fast. They are not good at jumping. The migration of toads south and west is inevitable. What we can do is slow their migration to help out native species adapt to their presence. One way to do that is prevent their access to waterways. Large tough sedges and grasses around your dams for example are a good way of doing that as it slows and prevents their access effectively. If you can use a knee high hessian material this also works.
You’ve been sitting on that for weeks. You could have googled that in seconds but as usual you just wanna fight.
Lastly that comment about colonial ancestors. What a arsehole comment.
Racist dogs eh? Sounds about where this convo should be at. Like i mentioned above with the names i mentioned. And a great time to leave.
Yep, I reckon my work here is done. Flight BD leaving the building...btw...you're spot on Goofyfoot. I'm a fuckwit. I judge myself harder than you ever could, but at the end of the day, we're just internet voices. But i haven't based a big chunk of my adult life on reading every single swellnet post like you proclaimed to have. So what does that make you? And for what it's worth, Indo was yapping away at me for days before that post. He could have posted a pic of him gardening and i would have written him off. All about context. But you love your impulsive potshots. All good!
BTW. Hutchy41. You are the invasive disease that will bring swellnets forums to it's knees. It's not sustainable to have a know it all who know's nothing continually shooting everyone down at the knees, regardless of their incomplete grasp of facts and your unwillingness to comprehend and actually engage in learning. It's a brave new world of Swellnet with Hutchy48 taking the reigns. Good luck all. I'll be back but not in this climate of self indulgent posturing over an issue that should be an innate part of our spiritual growth as civil, compassionate beings.
Bonza - all the cane toads I have encountered were VERY good hoppers . Knee high fence no problem .
Your inability to read and comprehend is legendary .
I said -"There are ancestors of the government leaders who you accuse of committing genocide alive today . I hope they are not reading your views ."
You said "colonial ancestors ".
Please try harder to avoid simple mistakes .
Blue diamond - SN is much stronger that you realise . So many good things on it . Smart people realise they don't have to read comments from people they don't like .
I wish I could say I will miss your abuse .
Blue Diamond - I know you won't leave SN for long and I am happy about that .
I am probably much older than you and so have a bit more experience . My job requires me to know a bit about a lot of subjects . Issues I want to know more about I do a bit of quick research .
There is an old adage that after doing an hours research on a topic you are an expert compared to most others who haven't .
People who are quick to abuse me or are overly judgemental I do probably shoot down at the knees to quickly . I am also not the only one . I believe I was way to quick to react when I first joined SN . It is my first go at social media .
I think I am getting a bit better at it as I am used to being abused now and have a very thick skin anyway . I am learning and always strive to .
I maybe a disease but unlike Covid you don't need to go into lockdown . I am easy to avoid .
Good luck to you .
I gave it a google it Bonza
https://www.daf.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/77360/cane-toad.pdf
See Control page 3
seeds . I have never measured there hop height . The article said they are unable to jump very high . Is knee high very high ?
I might be wrong and Bonza might be onto something . Maybe we can build a low wall across Australia ?
@BD, I valued your thoughtful contributions here on SN where fact bumps up against fantasy on a daily basis. Hope you continue to fight the good fight, cheers mate.
Hutchy 19 wrote:There is an old adage that after doing an hours research on a topic you are an expert compared to most others who haven't .
Ah yes. That classic old adage.
Wtf are you smoking?
Hutchy, like BD that'll do me......it's all getting a bit dumber than dumb.......sometimes when I talk to you and try and get you to read links , or do a bit of research....well it's a one way street....as you can tell I love actually looking for the links/ information which means I am learning all the time...that's the point of forums for me, is learning , creating opinions based on the facts/stats at hand......
SN seems to have turned into Right and left......I have learnt a lot , but my Global business's are calling.....good luck with your shallow general knowledge....
I will leave you with , for me , a bit of humour that for me is a descriptive of Donald Trump and his right wing supporters and in this case a guy running for State legislature who was on the Dons International Rapid Response Team........." if we take all the boats and ships out of the water/oceans this will stop Sea Level rise!".....I think he injected himself with bleach....or once again we see trump supporters /workers in the bottom of the IQ ladder...just like don!
https://au.news.yahoo.com/pro-trump-candidate-suggests-taking-063650844....
Hutchy 19 wrote:Brutus - I have commented , as demanded , on how I read , a long time ago , its genesis .
A reaction to Chinese land practices in the NT. I also said it wasn't brought in to throw the First nation people out . I also said IF it was directed solely at our first nation people in would have been brought in much earlier .
As the expert please tell me how I am wrong . ( Notice the please ) .
Don't be rude expecting me to do research . I wouldn't do it to you or expect you to tell me everything .
He’s licking toads me thinks Hiccups
The high jumping variety
Traits of a Narcissistic Psychopath:
-grandiose sense of self-importance
-lives in a fantasy world which supports their delusions of grandeur
-needs constant praise and admiration
-sense of entitlement
-exploits others without guilt or shame
-frequently demeans, intimidates, bullies or belittles others
Sounds like an accurate description of somebody on here....
Brutus - some more general comments .
You have asked me questions , which I always try to reply to , and often I don't get a response eg genesis of White Australia policy .
I have read most of the links suggested by you and others and am often saddened at what I read eg Uluru Statement ( what a missed opportunity to make positive changes , how is the referendum going because I haven't heard anything about it ) .
You , unfortunately , are fixated on the past . You are showing every day your resentment of colonialism , capitalism and Trump for example .
I am fixated on the future . I look at the past to ensure I don't make repeated mistakes .
I know I can't change the past . I want to have the courage to change myself and issues I can affect NOW so the future will be brighter .
I apologise that my way of communicating is interpreted by you as " a bit dumber than dumb..."
Definitely not my intention .
Hutchy,
Everyone is suffocating under piles of your overzealous yet underwhelming opinions.
You win every argument based on nothing but volume.
Can you just back off, mate?
tonys-shirtfront wrote:Traits of a Narcissistic Psychopath:
-grandiose sense of self-importance
-lives in a fantasy world which supports their delusions of grandeur
-needs constant praise and admiration
-sense of entitlement
-exploits others without guilt or shame
-frequently demeans, intimidates, bullies or belittles othersSounds like an accurate description of somebody on here....
He did reveal the other day that he’s a Dutchman. Same same as you described Mr Shirtfront
You are funny Tony .
"-needs constant praise and admiration"
All I get is abuse with many swearing , calling me a drug addict , and constantly trying to intimidate me .
It doesn't work as I hope you have noticed .
This comment may be right if changed slightly -"-lives ( change to- comments on SN ) in a fantasy world which supports their delusions of grandeur "
You need another Psychological description .
I hope , unlike your picture , the cupboard is not bare .
@bluediamond
@brutus
again your thoughtful contributions here were greatly appreciated, I’m sure by many not just me.
I would encourage you to both to stay while simply ignoring those who are here for less than noble reasons as irritating the petulant pisshands can be.
it’s a worthy fight
Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x
The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.
Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.
Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.
The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.
Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??
Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28
References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28