The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Here’s another link :
Google Swellnet Blowin Jap is not offensive.
It’s just as valid as anything else.
...
It seems it is to a whole nation of people.
stunet wrote:It seems it is to a whole nation of people.
It would break him to admit he's wrong.
It truly bewilders me the way people will cry rivers about the potential for offence to be found in an innocently employed term, the way they will argue hardcore about how it might, maybe considered an insult. Even though the person who used the term quite plainly states it was not intended as offensive. But still….they must be punished as guilty of potential offence to some faceless victim who may not exist!!!!
Very next post that person is directly unloading “ Boof headed wanker” upon someone.
I thought we were trying to create a world of pure respect? Apparently not.
...and another false equivalence. Better lay off the caffeine and get onto the chamomile big lad. I think you've done enough red-neckery for one day.
I'm not part of that argument you're having with Hiccups. My issue is why not, when it's presented to you that Jap is offensive, just roll with it and move on? Here's something we learned today.
A lot of what people find offensive doesn't make sense to me, but this is the mystery of culture. If you want to continue using it around your mates then go for it, but to double down on it in a public forum just seems futile.
You know what, Stu? I’m pretty positive the Japanese people forfeited their right to decide whether my use of the word Jap is appropriate or not when they started killing Australians wholesale.
I have been called whitey by many, many indigenous Australians and I understand that in many ways their perspective on Anglo Australians is similar to my perspective on Japanese. That’s why I let the indigenous person make the judgement call on whether the term is appropriate or not. Most times it’s used in a friendly manner, sometimes not. Either way it’s not my place to tell them that I might find the word uncomfortable. Not until it’s unambiguously meant to be taken as offensive anyway.
You being called whitey by an indigenous Australian is not how racism works.
Everything is a battleground for you, isn't it?
Stu…I don’t think doubling down is futile. I think rolling over and showing your belly to some belligerent language Nazi on the internet is unpalatable.
I’m not here to appease them and they’re not here to tell me how to think, live or act. Easy as that.
It’s less a culture war and more the refusal to bow to self elected arbiters of morality who don’t know a thing about me beyond the fact they want me to bend to their will.
Jezus..everyday, the idiot proves just how much of a gutter dweller he is.
Roadkill wrote:Jezus..everyday, the idiot proves just how much of a gutter dweller he is.
Imagine trying that hard to be Mr Alpha Male everyday. Stomping around the internet, lowering the tone with bully-boy behaviour. Exhausting.
Blue Diamond - You are right that I have repeatedly asked what more we can do to help .
I have looked at all your posts and you have NEVER offered a reasonable option . If you think I may have missed some PLEASE re post them and I promise to peruse them . All you have done is abuse me every time I have asked .
I was thrilled that Brutus posted an article today about building healing centres . This is the FIRST good option I have heard on this thread other than changing some place names . I have already said above I want to learn more about them , are they being built , what are they teaching . I will do my OWN research .
I said we need to do more more , I said this week that the only thing I can think of was providing more education and again I was abused .
Your comment - "You've been a noted pest on this thread so if you're gonna ask questions but not respond to the answers, but then still ask the same questions.....i dunno...you see where i'm going with this?" is typical of ALL your fucken responses to me .
It may surprise you but this " Old ( maybe I added in old ) white man " does really want to know how we can help . There is no Fucken ulteria motive !!!!!!!!
I’m pretty sure my Aboriginal mates would not like me referring to them as “Abos”, even if I used the word as a term of endearment. Intention is one thing; response is another.
Hiccups wrote:Roadkill wrote:Jezus..everyday, the idiot proves just how much of a gutter dweller he is.
Imagine trying that hard to be Mr Alpha Male everyday. Stomping around the internet, lowering the tone with bully-boy behaviour. Exhausting.
Yet I find your pursed lipped dominatrix routine nauseating. You ever noticed that it’s always flogs like you on here telling me what to think, do and say and not vice versa? If you can’t shame people into your little world view you straight out abuse them. I’m not interested in that.
When was the last time I acted the school marm and policed your language or determined what was acceptable for you to think or say? Never.
You think you know me but you are so wide of the mark. Just because I didn’t immediately drop to my knees and beg forgiveness for using a word you didn’t approve of that I’m a gutter dwelling whatever?
Sure bloke
Blowin wrote:Hiccups wrote:Roadkill wrote:Jezus..everyday, the idiot proves just how much of a gutter dweller he is.
Imagine trying that hard to be Mr Alpha Male everyday. Stomping around the internet, lowering the tone with bully-boy behaviour. Exhausting.
Yet I find your pursed lipped dominatrix routine nauseating. You ever noticed that it’s always flogs like you on here telling me what to think, do and say and not vice versa? If you can’t shame people into your little world view you straight out abuse them. I’m not interested in that.
When was the last time I acted the school marm and policed your language or determined what was acceptable for you to think or say? Never.
You think you know me but you are so wide of the mark. Just because I didn’t immediately drop to my knees and beg forgiveness for using a word you didn’t approve of that I’m a gutter dwelling whatever?
Sure bloke
It's pretty eady to know you. Most in here have you easily pegged.
The standard of individual you are is on display daily.
A very very easy read.
Blowin wrote:You think you know me but you are so wide of the mark.
d00d. You spill your guts on here everyday. I think anyone who swans in knows you pretty well.
I didn't realise it was offensive to use for some either. Seems it's more offensive in certain countries than others. I've used it many times around Japanese people and never sensed any awkwardness. Which, as I know ,they won't generally come out and correct you upfront , but I am familiar with how they express discomfort in a situation without actually saying so.
But knowing that it can be offensive I will certainly consider my usage of it in the future, not saying I won't use it though.
An article about the automotive and motorsport industries and the use of 'Jap' in company names etc and a response from the Japanese Consulate in America about its use ...
"In general, Japanese people are aware of the offensive connotations of the word ‘Jap’ in some contexts, as would be expected. On the other hand, in the Japanese language it is fairly common to abbreviate words and/or combine shortened words to form a new term, mostly for simplicity. So in this sort of context, as with the usages you described, it would not necessarily be unusual or considered offensive.
Bruce Powley
Consulate General of Japan Denver"
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/12/automotive-circles-still-use-w...
"To paraphrase : the word Jap is offensive ,except when it isn't"..the author
Hiccups wrote:Blowin wrote:You think you know me but you are so wide of the mark.
d00d. You spill your guts on here everyday. I think anyone who swans in knows you pretty well.
No idea.
If Zen is out there, would be interesting to hear his take on the term Jap or Jap's? im going to be guessing not that great.
I had quite a few Japanese surfer friends on the Goldie as mates lived with a few Japanese surfers in a share house and those Japanese had Japanese surfer friends too that would come party with us (also some Japanese girls), some of the guys that lived with them referred to them as Jap's and the Japanese surfers were cool with it, but it was used in a way that was kinda of a term of endearment even if shit stirring etc
But in all honestly i never felt comfortable using the term at least in their presence, just because although i was mates with them, i wasn't as close with them as others that lived with them, I just went around to see my mates and would drink with them all, they were funny buggers though.
I even tend to steer away from using the term Indo's or Balo's around Indonesians, it's not that it's bad but i don't think its overly respectful either, so i just dont use it incase it causes offensive, or just so i dont sound like a typical Aussie bogan surfer.
But each to their own, some terms are definitely not okay though, as kids we always shortened Aboriginal but it's obviously far from acceptable these days.
Typical Blue D response . I said I hadn't seen ONE good suggestion you have posted and asked you to post them . You didn't so when I have some time I will look back a few days . Please send me the other post you mentioned or give me the week so I can have a look .
I have repeatedly said I feel not qualified to offer my own suggestions so trying to not "speak" much .
You still have NEVER given me anything realistic that's worth "listening to " . Why not start now ?
Giving Aboriginals 50% voting rights and 50% of all our industries is a stupid idea as I have told you .
FFS give me one good idea !
BTW. I never saw them get upset at being called Japs, but OMG they weren't shy if someone didnt take their shows off when entering, even if a shitty share house.
I do love the Japanese ( and Koreans ) but they are very racist . Don't like their blood being mixed at all .
May have changed somewhat is the last few decades . Still no reason to offend them .
Indo, I've been staying out of this but since you asked, I think Gary on the last page summed it up pretty well. Even though I'm married to one and we kinda have a little in joke and use the term Jap at times, I don't use it. It carries a bit of baggage. Likewise, she doesn't call me a round-eyed white monkey (even though I'd be cool with it.)
And Hutchy, you're right, racist as they come but probably not in the way you'd think. They just hate other Asians.
Cheers, that's the view point i kind of expected.
BTW. Especially Chinese yeah, I think most other Asian's dislike Chinese, mostly because of them owning so much wealth in other Asian countries and having a reputation of being very cut throat business people.
Another flog telling others what to do.
Hows it feel to embody petty spite? Good? You’ve been gunning for it for as long as I’m aware of you.
Don't start with the psyche assessments again, especially the faux concern about mental health. If he frustrates you, as he sometimes does me, then confront it using rhetoric or humour, anything but this smarmy condescending shit you fall back on.
You're welcome. I can also assist with bad posture and halitosis too.
Can't help you with that sorry.
indo-dreaming wrote:BTW. Especially Chinese yeah, I think most other Asian's dislike Chinese, mostly because of them owning so much wealth in other Asian countries and having a reputation of being very cut throat business people.
My experience is it's a bit more deep-seated historically and culturally than that, particularly because by being close neighbours and so there's history of conflict etc between China and surrounding Asian countries going back 100s (well 1000?) of years.
Some people come here for surf reports, some come here to talk surfing, some come here to talk shit and argue.
Only Facto comes here purely to spread malice and spite . What kind of person does that? It’s about as ugly as the human condition can get.
The type who would’ve set fire to cats as a kid.
Hey wait…. I thought China had never invaded anyone?
I think you might have missed my point.
But that’s cool.
I hate the word 'japs', aside from maybe once or twice, literally never used it in my life...
makes me quite uncomfortable when others use it, that won't stop me talking to them, but my little inside narrative says... 'really?!'...
lucky it doesn't stop me talking to them, as quite a few good friends use it readily, and tbh, often it seems to have a little loaded racism behind it...
having said that, I have spent a lot of time around japanese people, one in particular, fo r decades almost, very close, about as honest and free as a relationship can get... have asked several times, in different settings and times, if 'japs' is considered offensive... a very definite 'no' was the answer every time...
zen's circle sees it different, as do many others obviously... i think it comes down to what you've been told and your education, which can both be quite sheltered in the japanese experience. japanese education seems quite censored, not china style censored... but a very controlled account in schools it would seem nonetheless...
which brings me to who decided 'japs' is offensive?
it seems cross cultural japanese people have picked up on it, and some (hyper)sensitive whiteys have spread their gospel...
which for me, just shows how subjective 'racism' is. and that quite often, it's actually the (hyper)sensitive getting offended on someone's behalf...
which was fine for a while... but now, it's become a legion of (anti)culture warriors making a career out of it...
dissing, dismissing, deplarforming... and tut-tuting their way through life, ...inflating their egos, by tearing down others... and some are making a pretty penny in the process...
I still cringe when I hear 'japs'... every time... but I now judge the tut-tutter much more than the person that said it... (depending on context...) ...because it's become increasingly clear this little road of manufactured outrage often serves the tut-tutters more than it does any perceived community service...
and plus, it's all totally subjective... which was fine when it was all almost objective and reasonable... but that's been thrown out of the window, developed into the form of an orgy of outrage... where subjective theories reign supreme, as 'all perspectives matter'
...except for the 'wrongthink' ones...
Look at any WW2 propaganda poster. There’s a clear link between the pejorative term “Japs” and crude racially-based depictions. That’s imho why the term is loaded, especially in Australia and the US. Most people of a certain age get it. I’d understand why many younger crew wouldn’t. The WW2 angst has faded from public memory.
Interesting fact tho, going back a couple more decades from WW2. you know whose Navy provided a battleship to escort ANZAC troop convoy from Albany to Egypt before the Gallipolli campaign?
https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/article/navy_squadron_in_the_m...
So ,,,,, can we can still call Americans 'seppos' ?? .... I bloody hope so..
Stop your blubbering as you seem Blue in the face .
Show me your ideas or I will have to go looking . What are you trying to hide ?
The longer you procrastinate the worse you look . Time to show those on this site what a DH I am .
Its a great opportunity for you . I will grovel if proven wrong !
Posting links you haven't even read yet says more about you than you will ever realize, hilariously naïve love.
The paper is “Informed by contextualist constructionist epistemology and critical theory,”
Count me in.
Blue Diamond - I have scrolled through the whole thread . Your suggestions and comments .
25/7 - Change our flag , give Aboriginals 50% of political power , 50%Media ownership , 50% real-estate and other similar gifts .
26/7 - sacrifice our own privileges .
27/7 - change our greed .
28/7 - 85% of Australians are indifferent and ignorant .
31/7 - advised Aboriginals not to assimilate . Get out of the Commonwealth .
5/8 - said Australian government had a policy of Genocide and to Steal Children based on race .
6/8 - said I had a " White Australia Mentality " . This DID cause me GREAT offence !
15/9 - Posted that you had 3 bottles of Red wine and continued to post after I said said please stop .
*11/10 - I think this is the post I missed - more power to control their own destiny ( you referred to your original post of 50% power ), centralised voice , true authoritative' power , loosen their reins .
You also said you had no idea of the detail on how this should be done .
Yesterday you said you mentioned the Healing centres that Brutus highlighted . I couldn't see that - perhaps I missed that to .
As I have said REPEATEDLY . You have not offered ONE sensible suggestion and explained how it could be implemented .
Thanks for the 400 page link . I hope it has an executive summary .
This thread has become like a tag team wrestling match with multiple loud mouthed referees. All over the use of one word. Be good reference material for any Swellnet user doing their Bachelor Of Psychology thesis :)
Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x
The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.
Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.
Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.
The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.
Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??
Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28
References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28