The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
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Blowin - You have blown them out of the water . They only respond with abuse and anger . There is a physiological term for what the suffer from - C.D .
Smiley - unlike BB I was happy to take you at your word . As I said I couldn't believe it was a general practice in Oz . If it was it would have been written about and there would be links you could provide .
Happy to answer your question re how many aboriginals and islanders I have met . Have not kept count but under 50 . Probably more that have some aboriginal blood . Not enough yet .
B team reserves now.
Debate results:
Blowin =1
BB= 0
Ha ha the unbiased assesment of a disinterested party. NOT. The problem with Blowin's argument is that it ignores the vast amounts of reseach showing that poverty was imposed over several generations by the democratically elected representatives of the Australian people. Australia's history of racist legislation condemned generations of indigenous people to deep poverty and a marginalised existence. Further, the research I posted above demonstrates that in Australia it takes four generations for that intergenerational disadvantage to be overcome. And how did Blowin respond?
"Fuck you old man. I’ve lived and worked all over this country amongst every different kind of person and I’ve only ever treated people as people and without the preconceived bullshit you want to impose."
So a bunch of insults irrelevant to my actual argument and a defence of his own behaviour, which as far as I remember I have never challenged. I am reasonably sure that, in his personal interactions, Blowin does not discriminate. But again that has nothing to do with the issue. The issue is how do we close the gap on the many disadvantages suffered by indigenous people today. It is not about any form of guilt but it is about our collectrive responsibility to help people overcome historic injustices and create a happy harmonious future. I mean that is the goal isn't it. Sometimes I wonder.
“ Ha ha the unbiased assesment of a disinterested party. NOT. ”
Been watching some Borat BB?
No but he was great in The Trial Of The Chicago Seven. An inspired choice for Abbie Hoffman.
blowin , it feels like to me that you seem to have made progress in dealing with racism and understanding it....as I have called you racist before because of I think what were "joke comments ".....
It's actually nice to see you standing up for all colors as equal....and we shouldn't judge people based on the color of skin.....this is the holy grail for a Country like Australia to be fulfilled . A new National identity is being shaped as we get away from Racist colonial practices of the past and deal with our past and it's affects today....so all going in the right direction.....
As we move forward , there are still skeletons in the closet that need to be addressed , so we can become more tolerant and accepting of different races and cultures.....
So here's this mornings....a look at Indigenous Servicemen who fought and died for Australia ,
Have you ever heard of William Cooper.....if not read on .....incredible story and a portal into our history....."We know that many Indigenous men fought and died in the first world war. Among them was Yorta Yorta man Daniel Cooper, who died at Ypres, Belgium, in late 1917. He was the son of activist William Cooper, the honorary secretary of the Australian Aborigines League – one of the first major lobby groups for the rights of this continent’s Indigenous people.
William Cooper was an extraordinary man whose life story is recounted in historian Bain Attwood’s latest book. Those familiar with the history of Indigenous protest in this country will, perhaps, know Cooper for organising the 1938 Aboriginal “Day of Mourning” to mark the 150th anniversary of the landing (invasion) of the first fleet on what would become “Australia Day”, the most culturally divisive date in our calendar."
great read about a great Australian...https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/postcolonial-blog/2021/oct/31...
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Maybe i missed something, but i don't think Blowin every suggested indigenous people were not treated badly in the past or those in need should not be provided a helping hand too help close the gap.
Although being indigenous doesn't suddenly make you in need either, Brutus is a classic example.
My take on Blowin's argument seemed to be more not to treat people differently based purely on skin colour, and pointing out how damaging this can be as can a mindset that places blame on others based on skin colour, continently dwelling on the past instead of looking toward's the future.
I don't think you brought any real argument against this, but yeah i have bias like 99% of people here.
No misrepresentation. If you genuinely refuse to accept, in the face of overwhelming evidence, that indigenous people are currently disadvantaged, then that is the usually incurable, and frequently fatal, disease of wilful ignorance. But if you do acknowledge disadvantage, what is your solution?
Indo....yeah 99% bias , easy to see. but when you continue saying ," My take on Blowin's argument seemed to be more not to treat people differently based purely on skin colour, and pointing out how damaging this can be as can a mindset that places blame on others based on skin colour, continently dwelling on the past instead of looking toward's the future."
we are the sum total of our past , and thats how we look and work towards the future....you probably won't read the article/book as it;s from the Guardian.....but I just learnt about the Aboriginal Justice league who actually protested at the German Embassy about the treatment of Jews....so before we can successfully move forward as a Cosmopolitan Nation...it's imperative that we understand our past and some glorified version that only serves a minority of Australians and is not in the National interest!
Have you ever heard of William Cooper.....if not read on .....incredible story and a portal into our history....."We know that many Indigenous men fought and died in the first world war. Among them was Yorta Yorta man Daniel Cooper, who died at Ypres, Belgium, in late 1917. He was the son of activist William Cooper, the honorary secretary of the Australian Aborigines League – one of the first major lobby groups for the rights of this continent’s Indigenous people.
William Cooper was an extraordinary man whose life story is recounted in historian Bain Attwood’s latest book. Those familiar with the history of Indigenous protest in this country will, perhaps, know Cooper for organising the 1938 Aboriginal “Day of Mourning” to mark the 150th anniversary of the landing (invasion) of the first fleet on what would become “Australia Day”, the most culturally divisive date in our calendar."
great read about a great Australian...https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/postcolonial-blog/2021/oct/31
blindboy wrote:No misrepresentation. If you genuinely refuse to accept, in the face of overwhelming evidence, that indigenous people are currently disadvantaged, then that is the usually incurable, and frequently fatal, disease of wilful ignorance. But if you do acknowledge disadvantage, what is your solution?
You need to break things down more than just a blanket statement.
1. Remote communities:
Yes highly disadvantaged and always will be, it's based mostly on geography there will never be wide spread employment in these areas, there will never be the education or medical facilities there are in more populated areas.
However to encourage these people to more populated areas would be seen as destroying their culture etc, it will never happen so will always be disadvantage. (which affects overall stats and always will to an extent)
2. Regional areas
Much better access to employment, education, medical services, however communities are often trapped in cycles of social economic disadvantage & wealth fare dependency, community views can be less progressive so employment harder for an individual (in time this should get better), but if you white trash you often face similar challenges.
3. City areas.
No limits to employment, education, medical services, the onus is now on the individual for success (but communities or families can sometimes hold a person back), any possible stereotype disavantage of skin colour is evened out by the fact that many business/employers these days will possibly give a person of colour preference over a white person to appear progressive and diverse, especially larger business.
4. Those who identify as aboriginal
No different to anyone else, most you wouldn't even know they are aboriginal unless they told you, they can come from all types of families from rich to poor.
So all Blowin's and your own previous blanket refusals to consider reparations were wrong then?
indo-dreaming wrote:blindboy wrote:No misrepresentation. If you genuinely refuse to accept, in the face of overwhelming evidence, that indigenous people are currently disadvantaged, then that is the usually incurable, and frequently fatal, disease of wilful ignorance. But if you do acknowledge disadvantage, what is your solution?
You need to break things down more than just a blanket statement.
1. Remote communities:
Yes highly disadvantaged and always will be, it's based mostly on geography there will never be wide spread employment in these areas, there will never be the education or medical facilities there are in more populated areas.
However to encourage these people to more populated areas would be seen as destroying their culture etc, it will never happen so will always be disadvantage. (which affects overall stats and always will to an extent)
2. Regional areas
Much better access to employment, education, medical services, however communities are often trapped in cycles of social economic disadvantage & wealth fare dependency, community views can be less progressive so employment harder for an individual (in time this should get better), but if you white trash you often face similar challenges.
3. City areas.
No limits to employment, education, medical services, the onus is now on the individual for success (but communities or families can sometimes hold a person back), any possible stereotype disavantage of skin colour is evened out by the fact that many business/employers these days will possibly give a person of colour preference over a white person to appear progressive and diverse, especially larger business.
4. Those who identify as aboriginal
No different to anyone else, most you wouldn't even know they are aboriginal unless they told you, they can come from all types of families from rich to poor.
Indo...you can even break it down to 2 groups..
1) Indigenous Australians ( No sorry not Pauline LOL !) who have and are being brought up in a a traditional culture where the elders are respected and listened to....and their word is law...
2) Indigenous Australians who have been brought up without traditional elders , usually in an urban environment....who have lost connection with their cultural traditions...
3) Ok I said 2 , but this just occurred to me...then there are those ,"urban Balckfellas who are learning about their cultural traditions etc....like the Bangarra mob, who are actively taking part in re-discovering their cultural roots .......as what is being offered to them from their current cultural environment , just doesn't cut it.........learn on.....
Brutus - very happy to see some of your comments .
This terrible discussion shows how this thread goes round in circles . We are back to the beginning and are unable to agree on all people being created equal . I THINK there is agreements that all people haven't and are not now being treated as equals . There are more grudges on this thread than in the mafia .
Brutus - unfortunately I doubt this statement ".1) Indigenous Australians ( No sorry not Pauline LOL !) who have and are being brought up in a a traditional culture where the elders are respected and listened to....and their word is law..."
If it was true there would not be so many social problem being experienced by first nation people in both rural and city regions . Are the crime statistics different , the sexual abuse etc ? I really wish they were as I do see that abiding by traditional culture and the laws of respected elders ( women and men ) as a very positive thing !
May I suggest we look at successful strategies used in other countries that can help achieve our common objectives ? Any treaties that have helped . Anything that worked in NZ ( although the situation there seems worse than I thought ) or North America . I won't include Fiji .
Brutus - you posted this on another thread this morning . All people , even those that are not religious , should aim for this "one of the worst forms of pride among Christians is a militant, harsh, abrasive attitude that expresses itself in judging others." As you said all SN could learn from this .
Have a good Sunday .
brutus wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:blindboy wrote:No misrepresentation. If you genuinely refuse to accept, in the face of overwhelming evidence, that indigenous people are currently disadvantaged, then that is the usually incurable, and frequently fatal, disease of wilful ignorance. But if you do acknowledge disadvantage, what is your solution?
You need to break things down more than just a blanket statement.
1. Remote communities:
Yes highly disadvantaged and always will be, it's based mostly on geography there will never be wide spread employment in these areas, there will never be the education or medical facilities there are in more populated areas.
However to encourage these people to more populated areas would be seen as destroying their culture etc, it will never happen so will always be disadvantage. (which affects overall stats and always will to an extent)
2. Regional areas
Much better access to employment, education, medical services, however communities are often trapped in cycles of social economic disadvantage & wealth fare dependency, community views can be less progressive so employment harder for an individual (in time this should get better), but if you white trash you often face similar challenges.
3. City areas.
No limits to employment, education, medical services, the onus is now on the individual for success (but communities or families can sometimes hold a person back), any possible stereotype disavantage of skin colour is evened out by the fact that many business/employers these days will possibly give a person of colour preference over a white person to appear progressive and diverse, especially larger business.
4. Those who identify as aboriginal
No different to anyone else, most you wouldn't even know they are aboriginal unless they told you, they can come from all types of families from rich to poor.
Indo...you can even break it down to 2 groups..
1) Indigenous Australians ( No sorry not Pauline LOL !) who have and are being brought up in a a traditional culture where the elders are respected and listened to....and their word is law...
2) Indigenous Australians who have been brought up without traditional elders , usually in an urban environment....who have lost connection with their cultural traditions...
3) Ok I said 2 , but this just occurred to me...then there are those ,"urban Balckfellas who are learning about their cultural traditions etc....like the Bangarra mob, who are actively taking part in re-discovering their cultural roots .......as what is being offered to them from their current cultural environment , just doesn't cut it.........learn on.....
Im not sure what you point is?
Your number 1.group is generally remote community's that have the most issues and most disadvantage.
Your number 2 & 3 groups are the more successful groups.
Source: https://vuir.vu.edu.au/34839/1/QUAYLE%20Amy%20-%20Thesis.pdf
"On 26 May 2017, the First Nations
National Constitutional Convention adopted the Uluru Statement from the Heart
(Referendum Council, 2017). This convention followed dialogues across Australia with
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities on their views on constitutional
recognition. As noted in the Statement,
Proportionally, we are the most incarcerated people on the planet. We are not an
innately criminal people. Our children are alienated from their families at
unprecedented rates. This cannot be because we have no love for them. And our youth
languish in detention in obscene numbers. They should be our hope for the future.
These dimensions of our crisis tell plainly the structural nature of our problem. This is
the torment of our powerlessness. (para. 6-7)
The Statement called for
constitutional reforms to empower our people and take a rightful place in our own
country. When we have power over our destiny our children will flourish. They will
walk in two worlds and their culture will be a gift to their country. We call for the
establishment of a First Nations Voice enshrined in the Constitution. Makarrata is the
culmination of our agenda: the coming together after a struggle. It captures our
aspirations for a fair and truthful relationship with the people of Australia and a better
future for our children based on justice and self-determination. We seek a Makarrata
Commission to supervise a process of agreement-making between governments and
First Nations and truth-telling about our history. In 1967 we were counted; in 2017 we
seek to be heard. (para. 8-12)"
See, if you listen, solutions couldn't be any clearer....especially coming from minds slightly more learned than the great swellnet brainstrust of indo blowin and the H bomb.
And one to celebrate Indo and Blowins celebration of the wonderful world of colour..
. "Informed by Frankenberg (1993), Moreton-Robinson (2000) noted,
Whiteness in its contemporary form in Australian society is culturally based. It
controls institutions that are extensions of White Australian culture and is governed
by the values, beliefs and assumptions of that culture. Whiteness confers both
dominance and privilege; it is embedded in Australian institutions and in the social
practices of everyday life. It is naturalised, unnamed, unmarked and it is represented
as the human condition that defines normality and inhabits it. (p. 172)
Moreton-Robinson (2004) has interrogated, from an Aboriginal woman’s standpoint,
the relationship between knowledge, representation, and whiteness, asserting, “Aborigines
have often been represented as objects — as the ‘known’. Rarely are they represented as
subjects, as ‘knowers’” (p. 75). Her argument is that whiteness assumes the status of an
epistemological a priori:
Whiteness as an epistemological a priori provides for a way of knowing and being
that is predicated on superiority, which becomes normalised and forms part of one’s
taken-for-granted knowledge. The existence of those who can be defined as truly
human requires the presence of others who are considered less human. (pp. 75-76)
For Moreton-Robinson (2004), whiteness, as a regime of power, determines what
representations or knowledge is valued, and what is not. She wrote, “the universalisation and
normalisation of whiteness as the representation of humanity worked to locate the racialised
other in the liminal space between the human/animal distinction” (p. 77). As noted by
Moreton-Robinson, in a context of whiteness/coloniality, “racial superiority becomes a part
of one’s ontology, albeit unconsciously, and informs the white subject’s knowledge
production” (p. 77). Importantly, whiteness is not merely about skin colour; rather it is about
the “discursive practices that, because of colonialism and neocolonialism, privilege and
sustain global dominance of white imperial subjects’ (Shome 1999:107)” (p. 78).
Representing an Aboriginal theoretical framework, Maggie Walter (2010a) has also
highlighted the continuity of the colonial power relationship in the Australian context. Used
to describe the everyday lived reality of Aboriginal people in the era of neoliberalism, the
domain of Aboriginality encompasses four distinct but interrelated components:
socioeconomic position, dispossession, absences, and disregard. As discussed by Walter
(2010a), Aboriginal people are the poorest and most disadvantaged group in Australia, across
all social-economic indicators. In terms of absences, Walter writes of the social and spatial
separations of Aboriginal people, noting that “Most non-Indigenous Australians live their
lives within an Indigenous-free zone: an option not available for most Indigenous
Australians” (p. 130). Walter also discussed the physical and figurative invisibility of
Aboriginal people from spheres of influence at all levels, noting that Aboriginal people are
absent from the nation’s view of itself, “except as usurpable cultural icons” (p. 130).
Disregard is the third domain, which speaks to the over-visibility of Aboriginal people
as social problems, and the normalisation of disrespect for Aboriginal people (Walter,
2010a). She speaks of how “the casual denigration of Aboriginal people is twisted into the
daily fabric of the nation’s conversations” (p. 130) (see also Kessaris, 2006). The final
domain of dispossession captures the ongoing dispossessions of Aboriginal people of land,
culture, and for many, family. Further Walter (2010a) has noted a sense of fatalism that
sometimes exists within Indigenous communities, reflecting the dispossession of Indigenous
people from a sense of hope and optimism for an alternative future. As noted by Walter, the
“dramatically circumscribed life chances and the hard daily reality of this generation and
previous ones have become a normalized aspect of Indigenous life. We are too often
dispossessed of a conception of a different future” (p. 131). For Walter (2010a), the harsh
daily realities of Aboriginal peoples’ lives are understood as not only the remnants of
Australia’s past history, but also the ongoing nature of the colonial power relationship. " (same source)
bluediamond wrote:See, if you listen, solutions couldn't be any clearer....especially coming from minds slightly more learned than the great swellnet brainstrust of indo blowin and the H bomb.
Where are the solutions to these problems?.
- High levels of unemployment (never going to be jobs in whop whop)
- Low education levels, poor school attendance
- High levels of domestic violence(especially towards women and children)
- High suicide rates
- High crime rate (resulting in high incarceration rates)
-Shorter life expectancy than general population
-Higher rates of infant mortality
Sure there is more.
Sorry airy fairy dust Uluru statement's or treaty's etc wont cut it.
Real solutions are needed.
You didn't read the above Indo? Solutions aren't from me, it's from the people living it who are crying out for empowerment as a people.
bluediamond wrote:You didn't read the above Indo? Solutions aren't from me, it's from the people living it who are crying out for empowerment as a people.
If people and communities cant take self responsibility and ownership of their issues and get their shit together now, these other things like Uluru statements or Treaties are not going to help one bit.
Especially where their is deeply ingrained cultural issues and zero chance of things like employment.
You been on the beers this arvo info? Unusually frank less fence sitting MO atm
No beers, ive said exactly the same thing through this thread a few times now, nothing new, the view that some Uluru statement or treaty is some magical solution has also been said a few times now, as we know this thread just goes around in circles.
"The Statement called for
constitutional reforms to empower our people and take a rightful place in our own
country. When we have power over our destiny our children will flourish. They will
walk in two worlds and their culture will be a gift to their country. We call for the
establishment of a First Nations Voice enshrined in the Constitution. Makarrata is the
culmination of our agenda: the coming together after a struggle. It captures our
aspirations for a fair and truthful relationship with the people of Australia and a better
future for our children based on justice and self-determination. We seek a Makarrata
Commission to supervise a process of agreement-making between governments and
First Nations and truth-telling about our history"
but yeh, sort your shit out....
Let's hope it happens so we can see that nothing will change.
Your interpretation of the conversation going around in circles is my interpretation of the conversation getting closer to the truth, which is the powers that be giving back empowerment through a level of self governance and self determination to indigenous Australians, the first nations people, the people whos land we live upon. I wonder what your genuine thoughts on these philosophies are Indo.
what complete and utter bullshit Indo. You really are showing you are a fisrst generation Australian and have very little idea, if you think the most remote community's are the most disadvantaged and have the most issues........you are just stereotyping what's in the news which is right wing news because that's where you are most comfortable.
As more and more factual history comes to light about the past issues and culture , there is now a feeling of pride in the Urban Blackfellas who are now going back and revisiting their cultural roots...like I said ever heard of the Bangarra dance CO ???
It really feel like you are just trolling me Indo...as some of the nonsense you spout is so unfounded , and just plain dangerous to those who have open minds and are seeking truth!
https://www.indigenous.gov.au/communities/list-view.......
I know you won't read this but hopefully other people with open minds read....which completely dispels your need to bring blackfellas into your sterile world .
Just for you Indo I will try and post a great story of belonging/culture that still exists today and is giving Australians a lesson in not being so materialistic , and having a cultural base that has stood the test of time..
indo-dreaming][quote=brutus wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:blindboy wrote:No misrepresentation. If you genuinely refuse to accept, in the face of overwhelming evidence, that indigenous people are currently disadvantaged, then that is the usually incurable, and frequently fatal, disease of wilful ignorance. But if you do acknowledge disadvantage, what is your solution?
You need to break things down more than just a blanket statement.
1. Remote communities:
Yes highly disadvantaged and always will be, it's based mostly on geography there will never be wide spread employment in these areas, there will never be the education or medical facilities there are in more populated areas.
However to encourage these people to more populated areas would be seen as destroying their culture etc, it will never happen so will always be disadvantage. (which affects overall stats and always will to an extent)
2. Regional areas
Much better access to employment, education, medical services, however communities are often trapped in cycles of social economic disadvantage & wealth fare dependency, community views can be less progressive so employment harder for an individual (in time this should get better), but if you white trash you often face similar challenges.
3. City areas.
No limits to employment, education, medical services, the onus is now on the individual for success (but communities or families can sometimes hold a person back), any possible stereotype disavantage of skin colour is evened out by the fact that many business/employers these days will possibly give a person of colour preference over a white person to appear progressive and diverse, especially larger business.
4. Those who identify as aboriginal
No different to anyone else, most you wouldn't even know they are aboriginal unless they told you, they can come from all types of families from rich to poor.
Indo...you can even break it down to 2 groups..
1) Indigenous Australians ( No sorry not Pauline LOL !) who have and are being brought up in a a traditional culture where the elders are respected and listened to....and their word is law...
2) Indigenous Australians who have been brought up without traditional elders , usually in an urban environment....who have lost connection with their cultural traditions...
3) Ok I said 2 , but this just occurred to me...then there are those ,"urban Balckfellas who are learning about their cultural traditions etc....like the Bangarra mob, who are actively taking part in re-discovering their cultural roots .......as what is being offered to them from their current cultural environment , just doesn't cut it.........learn on.....
Im not sure what you point is?
Your number 1.group is generally remote community's that have the most issues and most disadvantage.
Your number 2 & 3 groups are the more successful groups.[/
BD The communities with the biggest issues (remote communities) have the most self governance possible im not sure how you are going to increase the control they have over their communities, these are the communities where there is elders and even more traditional mindsets, culture often the strongest.
Almost all these problems above come down to lack of employment, poor education & poor health care, and reliance of social welfare, those things wont magically get better, because there never will be widespread employment, if parents arent sending their kids to school now then i doubt they suddenly will, and things like medical care and further education will always have limits where there isn't populations to sustain them.
Areas like where i live the few Aboriginal people there are, are as successfully as anyone, like i mentioned before as a grommet i lived with two guys that had Aboriginal ancestry one dark skin the other light brown skin both back then had their shit together more than i did and both now earn more than i do and happily married with kids and houses (long before i had a house), a few other Aboriginal guys in my community the same, the drop kick no hopers where i live are white and havent changed since grommets and never will.
At my kids school there is also a couple Aboriginal kids with very dark skin, they are no different to other kids and get on fine with other kids, i don't think they are top of their class as never gets awards on awards night but i also know they are the not the kids who cause trouble or families that get talked about in a negative way.
BTW. These are my genuine thoughts there isn't much more i could add or be more open and honest about things i don't think i could even be more blunt, im calling out all the cliche bullshit, and like i said bring on the Uluru statement, bring on Treaties, i couldn't care less about the money wasted it will be wasted anyway, but at least when no real change happens people like you and Brutus will have to start looking at other excuses and maybe one day we might eventually start being honest and get to the root cause of the problems, although we will problably be long gone by then.
indo-dreaming wrote:No beers, ive said exactly the same thing through this thread a few times now, nothing new, the view that some Uluru statement or treaty is some magical solution has also been said a few times now, as we know this thread just goes around in circles.
then add this...indo-dreamingSUNDAY, 31 OCT 2021 at 7:51PM
Let's hope it happens so we can see that nothing will change........
INdo.....your above statements really show a lot about who you are , where you came from , and your vision for the future...
There has been enough evidence posted here ( But you won't read it) showing there has been a quantum shift in the way our First Nations Peoples are viewed in Australia and now there are actions everwhere that show a more inclusive Australia and an increasing acceptance of Indigenous culture.....just because you won't read the facts means your view doesn't really count!
You are going around in circles and always will it seems , because your mentality is so closed to reality!
It seems you want a magical solution where it all just goes away by Blackfellas adopting whitefellas culture which you seem so rusted onto!
there is no magical solution , just continue working towards understanding the problems , then don't repeat them , and keep working towards finding solutions for all of us...so when I say if you are not part of the solution , it has become very obvious that you Indo are the problem, you actually sound a lot like Pauline!
brutus wrote:what complete and utter bullshit Indo. You really are showing you are a fisrst generation Australian and have very little idea, if you think the most remote community's are the most disadvantaged and have the most issues........you are just stereotyping what's in the news which is right wing news because that's where you are most comfortable.
.[/
FFS right wing news?
Seriously now you are denying that the greatest issues are in remote communities?
That is just fact, it's reported in all news and studies.
bullshit Indo...all news and studies...liar Indo , you just made that up.....lets starts with ......
https://travel.nine.com.au/destinations/first-look-at-parrtjima-light-fe...
I dare you to check out the link.........then again you will probably say...what a waste of electricity!
indo-dreaming wrote:brutus wrote:what complete and utter bullshit Indo. You really are showing you are a fisrst generation Australian and have very little idea, if you think the most remote community's are the most disadvantaged and have the most issues........you are just stereotyping what's in the news which is right wing news because that's where you are most comfortable.
.[/
FFS right wing news?
Seriously now you are denying that the greatest issues are in remote communities?
That is just fact, it's reported in all news and studies.
brutus wrote:bullshit Indo...all news and studies...liar Indo , you just made that up.....lets starts with ......
https://travel.nine.com.au/destinations/first-look-at-parrtjima-light-fe...
I dare you to check out the link.........then again you will probably say...what a waste of electricity!
indo-dreaming wrote:brutus wrote:what complete and utter bullshit Indo. You really are showing you are a fisrst generation Australian and have very little idea, if you think the most remote community's are the most disadvantaged and have the most issues........you are just stereotyping what's in the news which is right wing news because that's where you are most comfortable.
.[/
FFS right wing news?
Seriously now you are denying that the greatest issues are in remote communities?
That is just fact, it's reported in all news and studies.
Um do i have to point out the obvious?
Just because the greatest problems are found in remote communities, DOESN'T mean their isn't positives things that also happen or that all parents are bad parents, or all kids are rat bags, or all husbands beat their wife's, or whatever.
It just means the problems like the list above a more of an issue in these communities, but there is also remote communities where problems are less or greater than other communities like anywhere.
yeah Indo point out the obvious which for you, always is a negative when talking about australian Blackfellas.....try reading the real Stats and how indigenous Australians are fighting back against the whietmans disease...of Alcohol/Tobacco/drugs....really positive,,,,just a warning in you might read how Indigenous alcohol intake is declining , while we are increasing.....
https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/alcohol/alcohol-tobacco-other-drugs-aust...
One thing that often gets overlooked in these discussions is the incredible power of indigenous culture as demonstrated in all forms of visual art music and dance. When people outside Australia think about Australian art they are usually thinking of indigenous artists.
blindboy wrote:One thing that often gets overlooked in these discussions is the incredible power of indigenous culture as demonstrated in all forms of visual art music and dance. When people outside Australia think about Australian art they are usually thinking of indigenous artists.
True enough, that and the Australian Impressionists
https://www.theartistsroad.net/articles/australianimpressionists
Good morning Indo. Just in response to this statement...
'BD The communities with the biggest issues (remote communities) have the most self governance possible im not sure how you are going to increase the control they have over their communities, these are the communities where there is elders and even more traditional mindsets, culture often the strongest.'
Would it be possible for you to post some links or something for me to read up and research these communities, the number of them, where they are located, on what scale their problems are and where they fit into the framework of the Australian government and what level of control they (Oz government) still hold over them as well as what levels of self governance they maintain. Even if you can just point me in the right direction to find the answers to these questions.
I want to make an informed response to this post as i'm not across this particular side of things.. Cheers.
Heres a good place to start
https://www.cis.org.au/app/uploads/2021/01/pp34.pdf
And plenty of google scholar articles
https://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?q=problems+in+remote+indigenous+co...
The communities themselves
https://www.indigenous.gov.au/communities/list-view
With map for good visual.
https://www.pc.gov.au/inquiries/completed/human-services/reforms/report/...
Then off course there was the whole issue of closing down some remote communities by Abbott years ago, another rabbit hole you could go down.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-11-12/indigenous-communities-closures-w...
blindboy wrote:One thing that often gets overlooked in these discussions is the incredible power of indigenous culture as demonstrated in all forms of visual art music and dance. When people outside Australia think about Australian art they are usually thinking of indigenous artists.
I do agree on this aspect this is the area of real value that indigenous culture provides, the traditional artworks are very unique especially dot paintings and believe some artist works often highly sought after.
There is also great value in the tourism aspect, history and cultural significant sites etc all area should focus on this aspect with signage etc with information explaining aspects relevant to the traditional groups that lived in the area and explain aspects that are relevant to a site landmarks or things like flora and fauna and how they were used etc and even local traditional stories.
You do see this these days.
To take it a bit further, indigenous culture is a huge part of our global identity. It is what most powerfully separates Australian culture from mainstream disneyfied western culture. It is a tragedy that we have not focused on that reservoir of indigenous artistic talent particularly amongst those living traditional lifestyles.
Thx indo i'll check them out over the next coupla days.
Ok Indo. Not sure if you missed the point of my question, but the topic i thought was about self governance, as requested in the Uluru Statement.
So i've just read and cringed my way through a liberal party paper, with all the facts and figures of yes, how bad things are in remote indigenous communties. These communities that all live under the same government as you and me. Could that possibly be the problem do you thunk? An education system weighted heavily in Western culture, and brushing their own culture aside as a pivotal part of their learnings and ownership of their culture??
The google scholar articles are very in depth and i'm sure hold some fascinating reading. Again, could you please point me towards the parts where you said " (remote communities) have the most self governance possible im not sure how you are going to increase the control they have over their communities, these are the communities where there is elders and even more traditional mindsets, culture often the strongest"
The third paper again is great and i appreciate you sharing it. It would take me all month to go through each town A-Z to find the specifics as mentioned above but if you know of these places, could you point them out to me please?
The fourth paper had some interesting points, but again was based on a Westernised government approach and i couldn't find anything about self governance although found this small paragraph interesting in regards to current government approaches.."Indigenous leaders and communities trying to take responsibility for improving the future of their peoples are too often stuck in a morass of red tape and policy churn associated with the political cycle and the all-too-temporary whims of successive governments and their ministers. While we have the knowledge about our lives and communities, government holds
nearly all the power."
As for the last article, well thats just tragic. The government, not willing to hand over self governance to a nation of people who lived here alot longer than you and me, yet happy to turn their backs on them and let the problem move somewhere else, to still be under the same rules and regulations that they have had to suffer under for 200 plus years.
So I don't know Indo. I'd really like to see some evidence of remote Aboriginal communities that have tried complete autonomy for their own people, with the blessings of the Australian government and the support needed to help integrate this into 200 years of trauma, and how it's failed so badly.
If this evidence doesn't exist, then my next question is, how would you feel about fulfilling the request layed out in the Uluru statement, particularly that of self governance. Do you feel threatened by it?
Again, thanks for all the links. Appreciate the time it took to find them. Cheers.
There is a prototype in the making too btw.
I guess it may be skewed by the influence of the mining industry and their dollars on the island, but a case to watch closely. It will take some time as their problems sound as full on as any of the communities you pointed out.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-27/autonomy-groote-eylandt-closing-t...
Like i said in one sense im happy to see the Uluru statement go ahead, so no off course not threatened by it.
Why?
Because It shifts responsibility back to the Indigenous communities and when nothing changes at least it wont be the governments fault or the rest of Australians fault, actually indigenous leaders and communities will have to take responsibility.
Off course the narrative will then just be it takes time, then 25 years latter it will all be the same.
Because people are people the solutions needed aren't unique or rocket science, Employment, Education, Health care and Cultural change.
Remote communities will always have these issues because it's never realistic to have all these things in these areas, any communities with very high unemployment and social economic disadvantage anywhere in the world have these issues.
Anyway it's a pointless conversation, if you don't get it by now, you never will, and off course its much easier to just make excuses and want magical airy fairy dust solutions, but end of the day it doesn't help anyone.
That said i don't really have the complete answers because the solution, encouraging people to areas where there is work and better education and health facilities, will always be seen as a negative because it removes people from lands they have lived for a ver long time and will be seen as cultural destroying.
So id bet my house on it that nothing will change.
blindboy wrote:One thing that often gets overlooked in these discussions is the incredible power of indigenous culture as demonstrated in all forms of visual art music and dance. When people outside Australia think about Australian art they are usually thinking of indigenous artists.
BB not a lot of people know that Indigenous Art , such as dot paintings etc is only 50 years old .
"In 1971, a school teacher named Geoffrey Bardon was working with Aboriginal children in Papunya, near Alice Springs. He noticed whilst the Aboriginal men were telling stories they would draw symbols in the sand.
He encouraged them to paint the stories onto canvas and board. This began the famous Aboriginal art movement. It was a major jump for indigenous people to start painting their stories onto western facades which was a very foreign concept to them.
Since then Australian Aboriginal Art has been identified as the most exciting contemporary art form of the 20th Century. Aboriginal Artists need permission to paint particular stories.
They inherit the rights to these stories which are passed down through generations within certain skin groups. An Aboriginal artist cannot paint a story that does not belong to them through family."
so what an amazing journey to try and understand the different Art from different Mobs...Art that is educational , right from wrong....dreamtime stories.....has become commercial and is a major $earner for remote communities and some of the contemporary Art...check out Otis Carey's ( Indigenous surfer) contemporary art.....@ instagram otishopecarey,
https://www.monsterchildren.com/otis-carey-artist-pro-surfer-deadly-icon/
have a gander at a new fresh industry for remote communities and urban......part of Australia's history...
https://www.aboriginal-art-australia.com/aboriginal-art-library/the-stor...
Indo , no hope , your way or hit the highway, you learn nothing above your post is an excellent article about De Groote island , and how there is a need to go back to traditional culture and that the community elders take control of the community....but you say in your last statement that they need to change culturally....your mob tried that it was called the stolen generation......and here you are still trying to tell blackfellas to change their ways and culture....FFS till now it's been a miserable failure........"Because people are people the solutions needed aren't unique or rocket science, Employment, Education, Health care and Cultural change."..........that's where your lack of knowledge in Australia's history is laid bare!
Blue - You have already promoted the idea of giving the First Nations 50% of our vote . Now you want them to have self rule .
This is a ridiculous proposition . They are Australians . We won't ( I hope ) allow Muslims to live under Sharia Law . Maybe we can allow some Aborigines to apply their own law to certain situations .
I have already given my views on the Uluru Statement . A completely worthless exercise . A good idea to give our First Nations a voice . Every Australian should be heard .
It proposed a referendum to give them one and said we will work out how after . Unbelievable that they would expect Australians to vote Yes for that . The government already has power to do this . We didn't vote Yes to end the monarch as they gave us no details on how we would elect a President . It was held in 2017 . What has happened since . Nothing . A jaunt run by Turnbull . Nice fluffy stuff no substance which is typical Malcome .
Every person has self will . Every family can run itself . Every community can do what it wants . BUT always in a way that stays within the guidelines that ALL Australians abide by .
Name one indigenous culture that has complete self governance . Try Eskimo's .
Do you really believe every mob and tribe should have their own rules ?
If we make them abide by one tribes governance rules all hell will break out imo .
Have a look at how ATSIC ? operated before it was forced to close with Mr Clarke running the organisation . A sambles .
Info, the crux of this debate with you was based on this bold statement you made, not so much to me, but to the requests of the Uluru statement...
"BD The communities with the biggest issues (remote communities) have the most self governance possible im not sure how you are going to increase the control they have over their communities, these are the communities where there is elders and even more traditional mindsets, culture often the strongest.'
You've provided no evidence of this statement which to me is the proof i need to know that most of what you write on here is sheer and utter bullshit. No surprises there. Unless you'd like to revisit that statemtent and ammend it...it was after all THE point of the argument that may have stopped it going around in circles, but at th most critical point of it you produce some unfounded and unverified statement as your main argument????????? Pffft.
Hence anything you say from this point on i'd consider ignorant and pure drivel..
Harchy, there is no way id waste another second of my time reading or responding to your extremely narrowminded views.
So yeah nothings changed there but glad to get to the bottom of it.
brutus wrote:Indo , no hope , your way or hit the highway, you learn nothing above your post is an excellent article about De Groote island , and how there is a need to go back to traditional culture and that the community elders take control of the community....but you say in your last statement that they need to change culturally....your mob tried that it was called the stolen generation......and here you are still trying to tell blackfellas to change their ways and culture....FFS till now it's been a miserable failure........"Because people are people the solutions needed aren't unique or rocket science, Employment, Education, Health care and Cultural change."..........that's where your lack of knowledge in Australia's history is laid bare!
Keep that head in the sand
Am I correct in that the tribes who receive native title, which runs into the billions of dollars, is only spent on the tribes involved and not spread to other indigeneous people?
I think the De Groote Island way is the only way forward. Native Title money spent on improving the lives of all indigenous people not just the people within in the tribes. Young people learning about the culture and being guided by elders.
From what I have heard there is a huge amount of native title money out there but only spread to few.
I don`t know this first hand but have been told this by people working high up in construction companies run by aboriginals involved in mining. Millions and millions of dollars sitting in their accounts but will not be spent on anybody besides the people within the tribes involved.
Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x
The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.
Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.
Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.
The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.
Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??
Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28
References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28