The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Females can say and do what ever they want in this day and age.
Its a wonder Adam Woods wasnt charged for calling them out
luckily he is indigenous.
Probably not worth responding to that.
brutus wrote:Indo now we get to the interesting part ....which I completely understand as I spent a shit load of time in Germany/Bochum ( University area ) in the 80's doing trade shows , having dinners with up to 30-40 people....I loved shit stirring and would always ask after maincourse when everybody was pretty pissed and loose...and would ask how do you view Adolf Hitler and the Nazi regime.....this would blow things up , as there was always 2 schools of thought.....
1) We accept responsibility for the Holocaust , it was an aberration of our culture....goes back to the Teutonic knights and the idea of a superior race....so we accept and own the past , and will pay restitution and be part of the annual Holocaust day in Israel........
A Bit like Aussies do ,"lest we not forget" Anzac day Gallipoli.....2) the other side of the argument was , it has nothing to do with us , it was our parents /Grandparents.....we take no responsibility , it was not us.....so nothing was learnt and the seeds for ne0-nazis was still alive and well.....
So when you say ," In regard to feeling any guilt about colonial times, why on earth would i feel any guilt about things others did long ago that had zero to do with me?
My family only arrived in Australia in the 60s, and i sure dont feel guilt because my mother was born in England. (lived in Africa and Fiji from a toddler to late teens)
The whole concept is ridiculous I don't think anyone should feel any guilt for anything they didn't do, or guilty for sharing the same ethnicity as others that might have not done not so good things in the past, if that was the case every person on earth would be walking around feeling guilty for all kinds of things their ancestors did as every ethnic group on earth has done things that would now not be viewed in a positive light."
the guilt is quickly absolved when you own the past actions , and learn from them....and if you don't , well you become part of the problem in that you are doomed to continue making the same mistakes over and over, as Australia has been doing for the last 200 years or so.....
That's why Treaty is so important as truth is being told from a blackfellas perspective and not a white fellas interpretation , which is where we are now debunking a lot of so called facts that alienate us from each other....
So are you suggesting non indigenous Australians should feel guilt?
If so, is it just ones with English ancestry or all non indigenous Australians?
So a baby born with English ancestry is born with this guilt?
How long does this go on for, is there actually an end point?
And what determines this end point?
If you are going to have some responsibility handed down thorough generations maybe there is an argument that the government has a responsibility for ownership of the past, but they have already apologised, so the apology wasn't accepted?
Or does the government need to sign a treaty to release everyone from guilt?
BTW. Does this on going guilt thing also include other issues of the past?
Honestly shaking my head at some of the comments today.....then i remembered, its a full moon!! ahhh.
As you were................
indo-dreaming wrote:brutus wrote:Indo now we get to the interesting part ....which I completely understand as I spent a shit load of time in Germany/Bochum ( University area ) in the 80's doing trade shows , having dinners with up to 30-40 people....I loved shit stirring and would always ask after maincourse when everybody was pretty pissed and loose...and would ask how do you view Adolf Hitler and the Nazi regime.....this would blow things up , as there was always 2 schools of thought.....
1) We accept responsibility for the Holocaust , it was an aberration of our culture....goes back to the Teutonic knights and the idea of a superior race....so we accept and own the past , and will pay restitution and be part of the annual Holocaust day in Israel........
A Bit like Aussies do ,"lest we not forget" Anzac day Gallipoli.....2) the other side of the argument was , it has nothing to do with us , it was our parents /Grandparents.....we take no responsibility , it was not us.....so nothing was learnt and the seeds for ne0-nazis was still alive and well.....
So when you say ," In regard to feeling any guilt about colonial times, why on earth would i feel any guilt about things others did long ago that had zero to do with me?
My family only arrived in Australia in the 60s, and i sure dont feel guilt because my mother was born in England. (lived in Africa and Fiji from a toddler to late teens)
The whole concept is ridiculous I don't think anyone should feel any guilt for anything they didn't do, or guilty for sharing the same ethnicity as others that might have not done not so good things in the past, if that was the case every person on earth would be walking around feeling guilty for all kinds of things their ancestors did as every ethnic group on earth has done things that would now not be viewed in a positive light."
the guilt is quickly absolved when you own the past actions , and learn from them....and if you don't , well you become part of the problem in that you are doomed to continue making the same mistakes over and over, as Australia has been doing for the last 200 years or so.....
That's why Treaty is so important as truth is being told from a blackfellas perspective and not a white fellas interpretation , which is where we are now debunking a lot of so called facts that alienate us from each other....
So are you suggesting non indigenous Australians should feel guilt?
If so, is it just ones with English ancestry or all non indigenous Australians?
So a baby born with English ancestry is born with this guilt?
How long does this go on for, is there actually an end point?
And what determines this end point?
If you are going to have some responsibility handed down thorough generations maybe there is an argument that the government has a responsibility for ownership of the past, but they have already apologised, so the apology wasn't accepted?
Or does the government need to sign a treaty to release everyone from guilt?
BTW. Does this on going guilt thing also include other issues of the past?
Indo, guilt is something you feel when you first come across an issue of the past, that pertains to yourself and possibly your ancestors/countrymen who were responsible....that initial feeling is then dealt with as you learn from past mistakes , which means now we have understood why there are past issues ...such as colonialism....what the affects are and then we change and make more better today's culture and lifestyle....
so the end point is being part of the solution....no guilt/no blame just actions that help with the solution...
I mean lets have a look at China ....they were invaded by the Colonial powers including the USA , raped and pillaged the locals got them addicted to opium....we are and will still feel the wrath of China because their history of being occupied by colonialism..........we now complain about the power of China , but the west created the current China.....then the Western Country's needed cheaper products to make more profit....so we all went to China and gave them the economic power they now have , and in turn the $'s to build a strong military.....they hate the west , because of past transgressions .....past history shapes the future!
And the Chinese have named their quantum computer JIUZHANG…meaning “old grudge” ..or “old score to settle”…that could be a problem.
Brutus - lets look at China .
Ever heard of Genghis Khan ?
The Mongols were one of the greatest colonizers of ALL time . Also one of the best at raping , pillaging and massacring .
Make the US and English seem like novices .
The US only had Indians when this happened .
Alexander the Great . Caesar and the Romans , The Muslims . All good rapers , pillagers , doing massacres but also excellent at Slavery .
Please take your western hating blinkers off which may help you to see reality .
You never responded to my question on who would have been a better country to have colonized Australia .
I did put China ( Mongols ) in the list of possibles .
Wouldn't Australia be a great place to come to visit if it was discovered through google earth and Indigenous folk still roamed the country.
brutus wrote:Indo, guilt is something you feel when you first come across an issue of the past, that pertains to yourself and possibly your ancestors/countrymen who were responsible....that initial feeling is then dealt with as you learn from past mistakes , which means now we have understood why there are past issues ...such as colonialism....what the affects are and then we change and make more better today's culture and lifestyle.... .
Sorry, you have it very wrong.
GUILT is a feeling you should have after an event involving YOUR own negative actions or lack of YOUR actions to prevent a negative situation unfolding.
EMPATHY is what all of us should have when we learn of people being affected by negative events, be it current or in the past.
Empathy being the ability to put ourself in the shoes of others and imagine how it must have been or felt, this can then bring other feelings like sadness.
For instance i feel zero guilt for anyones actions of the past, but i feel a sense of sadness for those who suffered in the past, because i have empathy.
Constance B Gibson wrote:好吧，婴儿潮
hahahahaha. Gold!!!! And apt for 'old' mate.
好的婴儿潮一代
or
好的婴儿潮
Hutchy 19 wrote:Tubes - my first hand experiences with Aboriginal people is extremely limited . Like most Australians and probably like most who comment on this thread .
Limited to second hand feedback . Like a close friend ( teacher ) and his wife ( midwife ) who wanted to do some "field research " and planned to work and help in an Aboriginal community for 5 years . They left after 2 years due to feeling unwelcome and unwanted .
Limited to my reading and watching TV to learn more . Hence the official stats which you seem to think are not relevant .
My views are then RANTS . I get constant aduse . I have a White Australia mentality . I am a Red Neck .
You say I really need to do "field research " before my views will be considered . You then say I won't last 5 minutes in and Aboriginal community . I also wonder how my youngest daughter would be treated in an ALL Aboriginal school . She also would probably only last 5 minutes and she is as left as you can get .
I also see that you all have treated EVERY other person who like me who wants to help and learn more .
Smiley -"Sadly, we have all been here before, the same dogged intransigence, the same narrow view, the same cherry picked (CP) information sources and arguments:"
You view my views as unworthy . You want me to fuck off .
I asked what real experience you had, didn't say your views wouldn't be considered , but I'll certainly stick them on the bottom of the pile after that response. Don't get defensive mate. And as I've stated before , no , I don't want anyone to fuck off. Problem here is you go on and on and on about shit you have no idea of. I get that you want to do some bleeding heart , armchair expert bullshit and that your intentions are probably good. However it just doesn't work that way if you want a real understanding of Aboriginal culture , identity and how they perceive us white carnts in general.
Your youngest daughter would be fine in a school full of aboriginal kids. They don't have the same baggage the rest of us seem to have. And for the record , I went to high school in a predominately aboriginal area. Others on here also come from places of experience , never assume anything about anyone on here, hence the question I asked.
I'm not trying to pick on you mate , just wondering why you're trying to solve a problem that's going to take generations to overcome.
If you want to help , it starts with littlest of things , attitude. And that's the reason I doubt you'd last in that world. They hate white knights on their big horses trying to fix shit without having a clue.
Again, appreciate your input Hutchy , and if I wanted certain people to fuck off from SN there'd only be about 5 of us left , and what fun would that be.
But in this instance , , less is more if you really want to learn.
A new one from Briggs
@Hutchy
Dont let people try to tell you if your experience is limited with Aboriginal people you can't share a view, if that was the case people here wouldn't be able to say much on half the threads here.
Im a huge believer in the value of real life experience but this is such a broad topic where it's only one small aspect, personally I've had plenty of interaction with Indigenous people all through my life 99% experiences being very positive, but this isn't about my or others interaction or experiences with individuals, its about so much more, history, affects of history responsibilities of history, its about culture and clashing of cultures, it's about the things most of us are never going to see or experience like all the areas where indigenous community's are failing, all the stats around these things, it's about misinformation and misleading narratives pushed by media or misguided social justice warriors like deaths in custody, it's about the government and what they should do or not do, it's about theories and ideas on what affects if any a treaty may bring or not bring....and about plenty more not related to personal experience.
In some ways personal experience in this case could actually be a disadvantage in providing a bias by looking at your personal experience instead of looking at the much larger very broad picture.
You're an Aussie, you live here, you vote for the government that are often held responsible for failings or issues around indigenous matters, or signing of treaties etc
Your view might not be what others agree with or want to hear, hell even i might not agree with your view or sometimes i might, but its your right as much as others to have your say, don't every let people tell you it isn't.
The only reason they tell you you shouldn't be commenting on this thread, is because they don't want your view's aired because they only want to hear the views they believe in, generally very close minded people with very set views.
BTW. My advice is also try to ignore the one line sideline snipes and dont engage with them, as you would have noticed they are ALWAYS from the same people, much better to just engage with the people who are actually here to have a discussion, also very clear who they are and even if they dont agree with you they generally wont say you dont have a right to your say.
indo-dreaming wrote:brutus wrote:Indo, guilt is something you feel when you first come across an issue of the past, that pertains to yourself and possibly your ancestors/countrymen who were responsible....that initial feeling is then dealt with as you learn from past mistakes , which means now we have understood why there are past issues ...such as colonialism....what the affects are and then we change and make more better today's culture and lifestyle.... .
Sorry, you have it very wrong.
GUILT is a feeling you should have after an event involving YOUR own negative actions or lack of YOUR actions to prevent a negative situation unfolding.
EMPATHY is what all of us should have when we learn of people being affected by negative events, be it current or in the past.
Empathy being the ability to put ourself in the shoes of others and imagine how it must have been or felt, this can then bring other feelings like sadness.
For instance i feel zero guilt for anyones actions of the past, but i feel a sense of sadness for those who suffered in the past, because i have empathy.
Indo , I used Germany as an example of the collective guilt of a Nation continuing for past crimes against humanity that includes all generations of Germans , past and Present.
when I read Groundswells post..... "I used to party in Sydney with two German girls who were on holidays here being nannies. I asked them if they are proud of being German and they both said "no! what do you think?" like two world wars was something to be ashamed of when they were'nt even born yet...anyway ive hung out with a lot of Germans and they all seem ashamed of those points."
the collective Guilt is born by the Nation of Germany , there is still shame/embarrassment and guilt for what happened in Germany for a period of 15 years.......empathy and sadness maybe from other Nations......but also disbelief and anger at how did this happen. To this day Israel is still hunting Nazi's and prosecuting them....and every year the Chancellor of Germany goes to Israel to the Holocaust Museum.....so Germany does not forget it's genocidal Plans for the Jewish people!
Studying Colonialism also brings about the same emotions, guilt being one of them , as our Nation Australia was built on Colonialist values .
So as we learn more and more about our past thru eg the Yoo-rrook Justice commission and trying to establish a Treaty ....part of our journey should be at least to listen to the new evidence/story's and for the first time we are hearing directly from the Australians who were affected by political policies such as the White Australia Policy and the Stolen generation....
So when confronted with the atrocities of past colonial deeds and the continuing affects that these policy's have today , you say ," no guilt here , makes me sad and I do have empathy , but nothing to do with me !"
I say take ownership of our Colonial past , warts and all....the life I lead and you lead today is based on an ever changing narrative of history which is still being unravelled and it ain't pretty ..but it's real ..
How would you feel if you found out all that you have and the lifestyle you have , was provided by Genocide/slavery and sexual abuse , empathy and sadness???
Optimist wrote:And the Chinese have named their quantum computer JIUZHANG…meaning “old grudge” ..or “old score to settle”…that could be a problem.
Hi Optimist , yeah China hates the West , read a lot about "old Grudge".....when you check out the History of when the Colonial West invaded China and repercussions on the Chinese people , their is a blind hatred ....and yeah they have no respect or trust for the West....
That's what i find amazing with our First Nations people , there is no hatred only a need for education and understanding so respect can be re-established through truth telling and then the trust will come....
when I read about a country becoming Independent from it's colonial past, what a great example Barbados is...get rid of the Queen and work towards a fully independent Country.....Australia will also do the same thing one day soon!
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/21/barbados-elects-first-pres...
[qoute]
Indo , I used Germany as an example of the collective guilt of a Nation
How would you feel if you found out all that you have and the lifestyle you have , was provided by Genocide/slavery and sexual abuse , empathy and sadness???
Germany and Germans dont all have one collective guilt mentality, they as you say are split on opinion.
And it would be wrong to judge Germans or Germany as a country on the actions of a minority, most no longer alive.
And to suggest those that say its the past and nothing to do with us become neo nazis, is just crazy talk.
Those that become neo nazis are those that think it has everything to do with them, and embrace nazi ideals as part of their identity.
Every single ethnic group on earth has ugly history's in some way, most countries have been fought over and blood spilt, even indigenous history and culture is full of tribal conflict, misogyny even cannabilism, but im sure very few expect current Aboriginals to feel guilt for this.
People should be judged on their own actions, not the actions of their ethicitys past or present.
Quote not working but Brutus said
"Indo , I used Germany as an example of the collective guilt of a Nation
How would you feel if you found out all that you have and the lifestyle you have , was provided by Genocide/slavery and sexual abuse , empathy and sadness??? "
Germany and Germans dont all have one collective guilt mentality, they as you say are split on opinion.
And it would be wrong to judge Germans or Germany as a country on the actions of a minority, most no longer alive.
And to suggest those that say its the past and nothing to do with us become neo nazis, is just crazy talk.
Those that become neo nazis are those that think it has everything to do with them, and embrace nazi ideals as part of their identity.
Every single ethnic group on earth has ugly history's in some way, most countries have been fought over and blood spilt.
Even indigenous history is full of tribal conflict, misogyny even cannabilism, but im sure very few expect current Aboriginals to feel guilt for this.
People should be judged on their own actions, not the actions of their ethicitys past or present.
indo-dreaming wrote:[qoute]
Indo , I used Germany as an example of the collective guilt of a Nation
How would you feel if you found out all that you have and the lifestyle you have , was provided by Genocide/slavery and sexual abuse , empathy and sadness???
Germany and Germans dont all have one collective guilt mentality, they as you say are split on opinion.
And it would be wrong to judge Germans or Germany as a country on the actions of a minority, most no longer alive.
And to suggest those that say its the past and nothing to do with us become neo nazis, is just crazy talk.
Those that become neo nazis are those that think it has everything to do with them, and embrace nazi ideals as part of their identity.
Every single ethnic group on earth has ugly history's in some way, most countries have been fought over and blood spilt, even indigenous history and culture is full of tribal conflict, misogyny even cannabilism, but im sure very few expect current Aboriginals to feel guilt for this.
People should be judged on their own actions, not the actions of their ethicitys past or present.
Indo ,Reality is a bitch sometimes , but to deny reality of historic deeds and misdeeds....is well pretty naïve to say the least....
.you never answered my question if you found out your current lifestyle/riches was based on slavery/genocide and sexual abuse.....would that be OK because it wasn't you?
where did you get that Germany doesn't have a National Guilt and that it was a minority who are no longer alive?
The truth is that Germany as a Nation fell under the Nazi Regime and was part of the Holocaust.....the whole Nation was responsible , which they accepted and took ownership of as a Nation , not a minority as you say......now Germany is one of the most progressive respected Nations......
Then you say ,"Those that become neo nazis are those that think it has everything to do with them, and embrace nazi ideals as part of their identity." the Neo Nazis are the ones who refuse to own the past ,who did not learn the lessons of the 30-40's.....
Just wondering if you celebrate Australia day or ANZAC day ...or you think that no sense celebrating something from our past?
Do you really think all germans supported the atrocities that went down under the Nazi power?
Off course not
In regard to Australia being based on those things you say or based on the suffering of all the convicts.
I like most others don't dwell on those things, as understand life isn't perfect.
We learn the basic history we learn from it we empathise with how it must have been, be it negatives indigenous aspectd or negative convict aspects, but that's where it ends.
We move forward and look at the positives of being lucky to live in such a great country, if i dwelled on negatives of the past be it here or elsewhere in the world where my family heritage goes back too or other countries they lived or just all the negatives around the world past or present, id be a sad bitter person.
In all honesty i dont celebrate those days as such, but i probably should make more of an effort to do so, especially Anzac day in respect of those that fought for what we have, especially as my old man went to Vietnam and walks in the parade, i also feel guilty for my own actions in saying silly things about war etc too him when i was a lefty, i have regret for saying those things.
In regard to Australia day i should celebrate it for just an appreciation of being so lucky to live in such a great country and the history be it good or bad, because thre reality is i woudnt be here without that history, id most likely be in the sad depressing shit hole of UK or Holland.
If there was one day to show respect to first people, instead of a lot of various dates that seems to dilute things, it would be the same, im sure id be too lazy to celebrate it as such, but id take the view that i probably should out of respect.
Indo ..yes the majority of Germans were part of the Nazi Vision to become the superior Aaryn race who would rule the world.
Suffering of convicts , ah they were criminals under English Law!
Your basic history has proven to be incorrect and it's constantly being revised , so we need to open to History changing as some of the old history was written by the perpetrators....so what you knew is no longer correct, which means your opinions are based on a false narrative!
If you can celebrate ANZAC day, which was a 100years ago....according to your philosophy.....it's in the past has nothing to do with me , so why even acknowledge ANZAC Day?
Because you only see the now , you are doomed to commit the same mistakes of the past....."if i dwelled on negatives of the past be it here or elsewhere in the world where my family heritage goes back too or other countries they lived or just all the negatives around the world past or present, id be a sad bitter person."
and therein lies the difference between us....the truth/mistakes of History, if accepted , and actions that are taken to remedy the mistakes of the past....will not make you a sad bitter person , but an enlightened Australian proud to be part of a new Australia that is inclusive of all...not just those having a great life at the expense of others!
Brutus 'the truth/mistakes of History, if accepted , and actions that are taken to remedy the mistakes of the past..."
As has been repeatedly said we applaud the truth and we want to avoid making the same mistakes in the past .
So we need to remedy the mistakes of the past that we did not make . I am ok with this but I want to know the details .
How far back to we go ? What do think is needed to remedy all the hurt felt ? Do we need to pay more money ? Give back all the land in Sydney ? Give more political power ? Create a special class of Australian that is indigenous ( what percent of indigenous blood is needed ) ?
Also what are the details need in a Treaty to remedy the past ?
PS I love ANZAC day .
Brutus have you spent much time with WA indigenous people?
Like out remote areas where some are worse than Gero and Carnarvon? they fight and almost kill each other ive seen it thats why i left geraldton and decided not to live in Carnarvon. close to red bluff/gnaraloo. plenty of well paid work in carnarvon but nobody wants to live there as there are so many thieves you cant leave your car unattended at woolies or coles. I have a couple of indigenous friends in gero too, one is super friendly and doesnt get aggro ever even when he is getting robbed by other black fellas with a knife. ive seen it. My other black fella mate got a broken leg by buying a cask of red wine and drinking it on his front lawn. A group of black fellas walked up to him asked for the cask and he refused so they broke his leg!
He was too scared to report it to police or even ask for compensation from some charity or whatever its called. If thats how they treat each other what the hell are white fellas suppose to think?
To Brutus’s point that all Australians in this day and age should feel “guilty” about what happened to Indiginous Australians, and on the other side Indo’s point about why should he (we) feel guilty about something none of us had anything to do with, I wonder how many people reading this that are non-indiginous truely feel guilt about what happened and the on going repercussions today.
Yes it was atrocious and inhumane and straight up fucking disgusting.
But does that mean white Australians today need to feel guilty about what happened ???
Can we acknowledge it and discuss it and try and move forward without feeling guilt?
Obviously I don't have any answers, just putting the question out there
The comparisons b/w AU and NZ are stark in how indigenous people and culture are accepted and celebrated. I would imagine for your average NZer a source of personal and national pride that the past is acknowledged and present is celebrated shoulder to shoulder to make the country culturally richer .... anyway that’s my take on a country I love visiting.
Lots of people are trying to tear that apart, Guy S.
In NZ now, it's all racism this racism that. It's the differences between us, the slights and 'hurt' - not the common traits and lives and hopes and love of NZ.
20 years here, and lots to be proud of, but fcuk it's not looking good at the moment - from my perspective.
You can’t carry guilt for the sins of your forefathers. Everyone pays for their own sin. You do however acknowledge the past so it never happens again. There are a lot of people on earth in the same boat. Also you can’t carry hate for what happened to your forefathers…does no one any good.
brutus wrote:Indo ..yes the majority of Germans were part of the Nazi Vision to become the superior Aaryn race who would rule the world.
Suffering of convicts , ah they were criminals under English Law!
Your basic history has proven to be incorrect and it's constantly being revised , so we need to open to History changing as some of the old history was written by the perpetrators....so what you knew is no longer correct, which means your opinions are based on a false narrative!
If you can celebrate ANZAC day, which was a 100years ago....according to your philosophy.....it's in the past has nothing to do with me , so why even acknowledge ANZAC Day?
Because you only see the now , you are doomed to commit the same mistakes of the past....."if i dwelled on negatives of the past be it here or elsewhere in the world where my family heritage goes back too or other countries they lived or just all the negatives around the world past or present, id be a sad bitter person."
and therein lies the difference between us....the truth/mistakes of History, if accepted , and actions that are taken to remedy the mistakes of the past....will not make you a sad bitter person , but an enlightened Australian proud to be part of a new Australia that is inclusive of all...not just those having a great life at the expense of others!
That is a terrible generalisation about Germans and as far as i understand not true or at least not provable, there was many resistance groups, tens of thousands of Germans lost their life's often executed for standing up to Nazism, imagine how many remained silent out of fear, that number is unknown, we dont know what was in the hearts and heads of most Germans.
History is occasionally updated sometimes other known perspective are added, but that is the exception to the rule, most history is written in stone, known history is generally correct to say otherwise is just untrue.
It's irrelevant if they were criminals or not, people are people, they were still taken from their home country and shipped to the other side of the world more often than not never to see their families again, about one in ten convicts died on the journey, as we know often their crimes were extremely trivial, apparently the more serious criminals like murderers or rapist were normally punished in Britain with death, homosexuality was also punishable by death however even turning a blind eye to known homosexual activity could be seen as a crime, there is records showing instances of convicts sent to Australia for exactly this.
This is also a chapter of the dark aspects of modern Australia's early history, but is it worth dwelling on?.
As i said i don't celebrate ANZAC day, i don't think celebrate is the right word anyway, it's a day of reflection, to acknowledge sacrifices made by others.
As i mentioned I'm not at all opposed to a seperate day for reflection of indigenous Australians i doubt most people would be, but Australia day is not that day, a completely different day and date would be much more appropriate. (maybe we should leave that whole debate for another day though)
Just because the events of the past have nothing to do with me, does not mean we cant reflect on events, it's good to remember an event for all kinds of reasons, remembrance, reflection, respect, acknowledgment, gratitude and yes learn from the event and not repeat it.
You see colonisation as only a negative event because of your ethnic background, i acknowledge that and respect that and can even have empathy for your view, but for many it's also a positive event because without colonisation all us non Indigenous people would not be here, and wouldn't call Australia home.
I don't agree with Hutchy that Aboriginal people as one collective hold resentment, i think that is too much of a generalisation, but with all respect its clear you hold a lot of resentment towards those you view as the continuation of colonist.
Personally i dont think that's a healthy attitude to have for mind or soul, im not a Christian i don't believe in god, but i still have a respect and understanding of aspects of Christianity that are important like forgiveness and understand that letting go of resentment and truly forgiving is just as much about the healing for those holding resentment than those they hold it against.
Anyway im sure you dont agree, im going to try to leave it at that and just try to agree to disagree, but it is hard as i am opinionated :P
And ive got to look after my 1 year old son and almost 8 year old daughter all weekend as my wife is working, so im going to be trying to kill a lot of time when my boy has his naps :D so even a little harder especially if weather turns to shit as forecast looks like it will.
Actually Indo, while there were *some* German resistance groups, they didn’t number in the ‘many’ nor ‘effective’. There were a lot of Germans who suffered under Nazism, this was because they were gay, Jewish, Roma, disabled, socialist or god knows what else, but not because they were part of a resistance.
What’s remarkable in the case of Nazism is how totally bought into it the German people were. It had its foundation in nationalism and a sense of restorative justice after WWI / Weimar. Once its excesses were identified there was little room for resistance as the apparatus of a totalitarian state had been bedded in. And ‘German’ culture was still heavily ‘Prussian’ influenced, which had a militaristic bent to start with. What came out after the war was that many Germans had seen the moral repugnance, but very few had done anything about it.
“First they came for the socialists, but I said nothing because I was a socialist”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...
For me this is the scary intersection of nationalism, ideology and authoritarianism. IMHO, China’s on that track.
Don’t get me started on ANZAC Day.
Alot of the sentiment above is, it happened too long ago, had nothing to do with me i feel bad about it, but what can I do? We're all Australians. Right?
I posted yesterday a quote about how past injustices if left unaddressed can then contribute to us, as in this generation being judged on our inaction to do what it takes to remedy past injustices.
I have a great idea to start with. Why not give their fking country back????? I guess that's a sacrifice none of us are willing to make right? So where does that leave us morally as a collective. Genuine question.
(And say this continent isn't wholeheartedly returned to its rightful owners, where's the middle ground on this because that's what we're really trying to find. Can many of us non indigenous actually be prepared to sacrifice our somewhat privileged lifestyle for the greater good? And how does that look? That is the real question)
Blue - your great idea .Why not give their fking country back?????
Do we all have to leave as well ? I mentioned at the start of this thread that as Australia is a democracy at least 50% of the people need to agree with your great idea .
I said then that your other ideas were also unrealistic . It didn't have any effect .
If this is an example of the detail you want in a Treaty it will NEVER happen .
To clarify , I don't believe that ALL Aboriginals hold resentments for the past that stops them moving forward with confidence and determination . If it is MOST this is very sad .
Blue - maybe we can give them there land back in some way ?
It depends , as always , on the detail .
Will I still own my 650 s/m that is on their land which has my home on it ? The place where I put all my savings and money from a bank which I have worked hard to pay back . The place where I keep the home and garden looking good .
Or do I have to start paying rent ?
The devil is ALWAYS in the detail .
You and Brutus will not give me the details .
Indo what you have written back to me is pretty scary shit and show you don't know history very well......you show empathy towards the Germans and what about the 10's of thousand s of Germans who died....well 6 m Jews were slaughtered , called the Holocaust leaving Germany with the mental scars of trying to eliminate Jews in Europe....there was and is a collective guilt that kids of today still have to deal with...try reading for a history lesson and how you got it so wrong....https://www.annefrank.org/en/anne-frank/go-in-depth/what-is-the-holocaust/
Next, yeah, now you show empathy towards criminals because they were displaced from their home country and sent to Australia....how about at the same time slavery in England was alive and well, where English Colonial slavers just stole people in Africa and shipped them to the USA for slaves....any empathy for them?
So yes we are still learning about the affects of slavery and dealing with new facts just about everyday about the cause and affect that Colonialism had on all indigenous First Nations peoples....rewriting history as more facts come to light.....I see this every day becuase I look, care and want to understand why todays world is now becoming so fragmented .....
History shows us that there is a collective German national Guilt that has been passed down from generation to generation...try reading a German Philosopher and his take on collective guilt https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/sep/16/bernhard-schlink-germany-b...
This shows how important it is to embrace the guilt and use it as a building block for creating a better society as the Germans have shown us!
So Germany has shown that dealing with the reality's of it's past , which is horrific, accepting and understanding why , is the foundation for healing and dealing with the ramifications of past crimes and issues .....just like we should here in OZ....actually we are doing it now..it's a philosophical question that is resonating the Majority of Australians.....https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/a-black-parliament-victorian...
last but not least Indo.......I see colonialism as an aberration of mankind....History has shown us that Colonialism was a dark part of mankinds history and we are still dealing with affects of it today, so when you say " You see colonisation as only a negative event because of your ethnic background, i acknowledge that and respect that and can even have empathy for your view, but for many it's also a positive event because without colonisation all us non Indigenous people would not be here, and wouldn't call Australia home.
I don't agree with Hutchy that Aboriginal people as one collective hold resentment, i think that is too much of a generalisation, but with all respect its clear you hold a lot of resentment towards those you view as the continuation of colonist."
So Indo this is where we differ , where Germany has shown the way to a better society......because you have a good life in Australia today that's all that counts , it doesn't matter how you got your lifestyle...even if someone stole /murdered dispossessed someone else...you would accept someone else's stolen property because it wasn't you and is now in the past ....
the Nazis lasted about 15 years ...colonialism was 100's....
etarip wrote:Don’t get me started on ANZAC Day.
oh please fire up,LOL!
This is a great fictional read (and a film, which I haven't seen) re collective guilt in post war Germany.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/101299.The_Reader
Brutus you say "I see colonialism as an aberration of mankind."
This is your main problem imo .
Colonization has always been mankind's most important activity .
It caused humans to move out of Africa . Aboriginals to come to Australia ( changed the flora and fauna ) . Torres Strait Islander peoples to come to Australia ( were the Aboriginals here first and were they displaced on their arrival ? ) Polynesians to go to NZ ( changed the flora and fauna ) . Humans to go to North and South America .
Humans have always wanted to see what was over the hill , across the river or across the ocean . It is in our DNA .
Their movement always has effects on what was there first . Always negative .
Should any of these people feel guilty for the changes their arrival made ?
Whites were made slaves by the muslims thousands of years ago . Every colour of people have owned slaves .
We should all have empathy for the horror people suffered due to this practice .
Do the South Americans need to feel guilty as their ancestors sacrificed humans ? Headhunters , cannibals ?
Colonization is natures greatest activity.
From atoms to cells, bacteria, viruses, plants to humans.
Will never be stopped!!!
"Resentments embody a basic choice to refuse to forgive, an unwillingness to let bygones be bygones and bury the hatchet.
We review and rehash our painful past, even as we profess to want to let go of it. We do so because we believe the illusion that by belaboring our resentment, we will somehow achieve the justice we believe we are due.
We cling to a futile need to be "right," which overrides the capacity to heal and be at peace with ourselves.
We hang on to perceived offences because we don't know any other way of coming to grips with painful feelings of hurt, rejection, and abandonment.
We need to learn to let go of resentment, because living with it can only bring us chronic punishment and pain, and prevent us from building up other relationships based on love, nurture, and support.
Letting go of a resentment is not a gift to the person you resent. It is, rather, a gift to yourself. "
Very eloquent info where did you cut and paste that from?
GuySmiley wrote:Very eloquent info where did you cut and paste that from?
Yes cut and pasted hence quotation marks.
"Forgiveness - 10 Steps To Letting Go Of Resentment"
https://www.marksichel.com/Forgiveness10StepsToLettingGoOfResentment.en....
Indo...now there you go , I think you do have resentment about being right ( pardon the pun,LOL!) and the idea of forgiveness is really needed in the current Climate of blame/anger and misinformation.
I have constantly posted that there is no blame ,and a need for forgiveness...but firstly we need History to show us what not to blame and what we are forgiving...so we in Australia are in transition towards a better Australia.....where healing from past actions is recognized , both Black and white.....the only real resentment is when people are constantly ignoring the facts provided to them and refuse to change their opinions when new facts come to light...very frustrating which creates resentment, then anger...then it's an emotional shit fight where no-one wins......
indo-dreaming wrote:"Resentments embody a basic choice to refuse to forgive, an unwillingness to let bygones be bygones and bury the hatchet.
We review and rehash our painful past, even as we profess to want to let go of it. We do so because we believe the illusion that by belaboring our resentment, we will somehow achieve the justice we believe we are due.
We cling to a futile need to be "right," which overrides the capacity to heal and be at peace with ourselves.
We hang on to perceived offences because we don't know any other way of coming to grips with painful feelings of hurt, rejection, and abandonment.
We need to learn to let go of resentment, because living with it can only bring us chronic punishment and pain, and prevent us from building up other relationships based on love, nurture, and support.
Letting go of a resentment is not a gift to the person you resent. It is, rather, a gift to yourself. "
san Guine wrote:This is a great fictional read (and a film, which I haven't seen) re collective guilt in post war Germany.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/101299.The_Reader
San great author , not sure you saw this link about the author , incredible perspective on Post WWII Germany....https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/sep/16/bernhard-schlink-germany-b...
the some good news ..I notice even Jeff Kennett is part of the treaty talks.....https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/a-black-parliament-victorian...
Brutus you say ".the only real resentment is when people are constantly ignoring the facts provided to them and refuse to change their opinions when new facts come to light..."
That is not how you come across to me . You exhibit huge resentment to colonization , capitalism , stolen generation , genocide etc .
They are facts .
brutus your views are so enlightened and hopeful, I hope you are spreading them far and wide.
Hutchy 19 wrote:That is not how you come across to me . You exhibit huge resentment to colonization , capitalism , stolen generation , genocide etc .
They are facts .
100% it's impossible to deny, and it will eat him up.
And people like BB encouraging it is really sad.
Brutus - Kennet being involved IS good news imo .
Love him or hate him he is a man of action and has a strong voice in Victoria . Much better than Turnbull in trying to get a real outcome . I am VERY pleased .
I must admit I am surprised you like him ! If SN had a search function I would check to see if it is the first positive thing you have ever said about Kennet .
Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x
The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.
Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.
Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.
The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.
Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??
Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28
References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28