The Israel Palestine problem solving thread
soggydog wrote:Roadkill wrote:southernraw wrote:Roadkill wrote:I would love someone to tell me what they think would happen if Israel pulled all their forces out of Gaza now, in 2 hrs there will be zero Israel IDF in Gaza. There will be no more air attacks. There will be no more rocket attacks. Israel pulls up sticks and go back within their borders.
What would happen? Anyone care to have a crack at the answer?
Breaking it down to absolutes does not do justice to the bigger picture Roady.
You want Israel to stop, they listen and stop.
What would happen? It’s a pretty simple question…you use absolutes all the time yet now, you are using it as excuse not to answer.
Firstly people would probably stop fearing for their lives, children would stop being shot, people would not be subject to illegal eviction at the hands of settlers. People would become less radical over an extremely long time. People would be able to address the domestic situation properly as the threat of external forces becomes less of a problem. Diplomacy could be re- established. Hostages/prisoners could be exchanged.
That just off the top of my head.
No point asking you a question as you mostly conduct your self like some sort of smart arse school yard bully/tool covering intelligence inadequacy.
To finish, in reply to all the retard level arguments you present and the questions you never answer sincerely or in good faith.. LMB roady LMB
I was going to say I appreciate the reply and nice to have a civil discussion. Let’s carry it on, we might get to a level of respect.
But you finish by editing your post and going low and personal. So I guess you choose the level we carry forward.
Pop Down wrote:Earhart :)
I have checked out another Earhart , maybe they are related .
Amelia , really knew how to fly !
If not related , I would bet my house (edit lol I forgot I sold my house ) that , Bill has checked her out and liked her to .
Good mums and teacher's are wonderful :)
Edit
My youngest daughter has a Christian name that starts with A .
Pop Down. Hi, error on my behalf , his (Bill) surname was Ehrhart , not Earhart as in Amelia, the famous pilot or your daughters name. AW
soggy dog, there ain’t much in your head if……“Firstly people would probably stop fearing for their lives, children would stop being shot, people would not be subject to illegal eviction at the hands of settlers. People would become less radical over an extremely long time. People would be able to address the domestic situation properly as the threat of external forces becomes less of a problem. Diplomacy could be re- established. Hostages/prisoners could be exchanged.”…is the best you can come up with.
Clueless and naive at best.
give me idealism over race-to-the-bottomism any day.
(if it is required that we feel impassioned and grittily pragmatic
about every polarising, intractable and trending world horror,
when our impact is nil and impotent, what's the point of living in paradise?)
velocityjohnno wrote:Roadkill wrote:velocityjohnno wrote:Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
Well done, VJ. Best to ignore who really deals in absolutes.
I'd been itching to throw that line in any thread... as stated before I can't see a solution, notwithstanding as a governed nation Israel is more similar to our democracies and permits both freedom of expression and societal debate through a parliament...
I noticed the absolutes accusation was thrown both ways and the ambiguity seemed the right cover for it...
OK what would I do? Um draw a reverse letter 'L' from Gaza along the southern border then up the eastern border with Jordan to join up to the West Bank and that is Palestine, it's a lot of desert and that sucks but it's a country and the farmers keep the West Bank and get some of their original land (which sucks as something they hate remains on a lot of this land) . Israel keeps all else and lunatics sign a treaty that they will never attack Israel again (which we know they won't keep the promise). For Israel this would be unacceptable as of loss of land and the port of Eilat on the Red Sea - so I can't see them going along with my plan.
It would all last until the next bit of agitation.
With regard to what's happening in western nations, their universities and city centres, we would recognise that as we bring in many people who are steeped in this hatred, we are going to have more and more problems related to it. How to make sure everyone gets along? It seems as intractable a problem as the ME conflicts themselves.
“It would all last until the next bit of agitation.” Yep.
The perpetuation of hatred won’t ever stop. There will never be peace or accepting other belief/religion. Too many countries have been too generous and opened borders and let too much hate in.
Thanks for reply.
basesix wrote:give me idealism over race-to-the-bottomism any day.
(if it is required that we feel impassioned and grittily pragmatic
about every polarising, intractable and trending world horror,
when our impact is nil and impotent, what's the point of living in paradise?)
Idealism isn’t realty…problems need to be dealt with within realty.
yeh, okay RK. I agree, but this thread annoys hell out of me. so I'll be brief re my views, as I feel like the middle is never represented in these discussions.. just immediately labelled and shoved to the left or right *sigh*
I think the saddest tragedy for all concerned is that this has all become splitting rhetoric.
Everybody was absolutely horrified at Oct 7th, then the vast majority quickly wanted Israel to remain calm in disgusting circumstances, for their own sake. The world watching, and any sniff of opportunism on the back of revolting tragedy would scupper Israel's world standing, and usa's wobbly global status as something worth something.
People who want Israel to smash-shit-out-of-their-neighbors are disgusting anti-semites, and generally just immature voyeurs of retribution, military bling, and continued, irreconcilable 'them and us' human suffering.
If you believe in Israel, as we all do here, you would want their future history books to reflect a civilisation that has integrity and compassion, a beacon of light and tolerance in the region, leading by example, their children's children living in a county they can be proud of. Even in the face of ignorance and brutality.
Defend something worth defending. Zionism is boring as batshit to normal people. To paraphrase: 'strange bearded men, lying on clouds, distributing lands, is no basis for a sovereign state'.
The rational world would like to believe Israel represents more than that.
And many very nice people are simply trying to express human concern, while navigating the crazy left and the triggered right, as has become the norm this decade, no matter how unsolvable and human the topic.
(sorry, not brief, but hopefully not *all* piffle : )
basesix wrote:yeh, okay RK. I agree, but this thread annoys hell out of me. so I'll be brief re my views, as I feel like the middle is never represented in these discussions.. just immediately labelled and shoved to the left or right *sigh*
I think the saddest tragedy for all concerned is that this has all become splitting rhetoric.
Everybody was absolutely horrified at Oct 7th, then the vast majority quickly wanted Israel to remain calm in disgusting circumstances, for their own sake. The world watching, and any sniff of opportunism on the back of revolting tragedy would scupper Israel's world standing, and usa's wobbly status as something worth something.
People who want Israel to smash-shit-out-of-their-neighbors are disgusting anti-semites, and generally just immature voyeurs of retribution, military bling, and continued, irreconcilable 'them and us' human suffering.
If you believe in Israel, as we all do here, you would want their future history books to reflect a civilisation that has integrity and compassion, a beacon of light and tolerance in the region, leading by example, their children's children living in a county they can be proud of. Even in the face of ignorance and brutality.
Defend something worth defending. Zionism is boring as batshit to normal people. To paraphrase: 'strange bearded men, lying on clouds, distributing lands, is no basis for a sovereign state'.
The rational world would like to believe Israel represents more than that.
And many concerned people are simply trying to express human concern, while navigating the crazy left and the triggered right, as has become the norm this decade, no matter how unsolvable and human the topic.(sorry, not brief, but hopefully not *all* piffle ; )
Thx for replying clearly.
“If you believe in Israel, as we all do here, you would want their future history books to reflect a civilisation that has integrity and compassion, a beacon of light and tolerance in the region, leading by example, their children's children living in a county they can be proud of. Even in the face of ignorance and brutality.”
100% agree. One of the best paragraphs I have read in this thread. No one could find any reason to not agree or be made to pause and think about it.
Just a quick observation to share. Speaking to my ex in Tel Aviv, before oct 7, her perceived threat of invasion/violence from hamas on tel aviv was about a 1/10.
Post oct 7, with security breaches done, the middle east stirred up, Gaza obliterated and all that comes with that her perceived threat of invasion or violence from Hamas, is a 1/10.
Just for some perspective.
Now RK, you have avoided a very important question..
How good was pipe, esp the women's final..?
southernraw wrote:Just a quick observation to share. Speaking to my ex in Tel Aviv, before oct 7, her perceived threat of invasion/violence from hamas on tel aviv was about a 1/10.
Post oct 7, with security breaches done, the middle east stirred up, Gaza obliterated and all that comes with that her perceived threat of invasion or violence from Hamas, is a 1/10.
Just for some perspective.
Hope your ex and all her friends and family are doing ok SR.
Cheers @andymac. Theyre just super concerned about the hostages as we all are.
Roadkill wrote:basesix wrote:yeh, okay RK. I agree, but this thread annoys hell out of me. so I'll be brief re my views, as I feel like the middle is never represented in these discussions.. just immediately labelled and shoved to the left or right *sigh*
I think the saddest tragedy for all concerned is that this has all become splitting rhetoric.
Everybody was absolutely horrified at Oct 7th, then the vast majority quickly wanted Israel to remain calm in disgusting circumstances, for their own sake. The world watching, and any sniff of opportunism on the back of revolting tragedy would scupper Israel's world standing, and usa's wobbly status as something worth something.
People who want Israel to smash-shit-out-of-their-neighbors are disgusting anti-semites, and generally just immature voyeurs of retribution, military bling, and continued, irreconcilable 'them and us' human suffering.
If you believe in Israel, as we all do here, you would want their future history books to reflect a civilisation that has integrity and compassion, a beacon of light and tolerance in the region, leading by example, their children's children living in a county they can be proud of. Even in the face of ignorance and brutality.
Defend something worth defending. Zionism is boring as batshit to normal people. To paraphrase: 'strange bearded men, lying on clouds, distributing lands, is no basis for a sovereign state'.
The rational world would like to believe Israel represents more than that.
And many concerned people are simply trying to express human concern, while navigating the crazy left and the triggered right, as has become the norm this decade, no matter how unsolvable and human the topic.(sorry, not brief, but hopefully not *all* piffle ; )
Thx for replying clearly.
“If you believe in Israel, as we all do here, you would want their future history books to reflect a civilisation that has integrity and compassion, a beacon of light and tolerance in the region, leading by example, their children's children living in a county they can be proud of. Even in the face of ignorance and brutality.”
100% agree. One of the best paragraphs I have read in this thread. No one could find any reason to not agree or be made to pause and think about it.
Sorry lads. What a very broad generalisation that is across the Swellnet membership.
‘If you believe in Israel, as we all do here’.
Don’t count me in on that.
I’ve have a two decades long friendship with a Palestinian family. For about that whole time, they’ve been persecuted, barely recognised by the outside world. I’ve held Ghattas piece of paper, yes a scrappy piece of paper that says he’s from Palestine, no passports ever, he and wife and children guard their scrappy papers like gold. Without them they have no way of being recognised or even basically proving who they are to others. Decade and a half ago
when their newborns first simple words are ‘tank’ you know it’s time to get out, through certain mechanisms they escaped to Scandinavia at some financial cost to give there beautiful boy and girl a life.
Please don’t group all of us Swellnutters in the same basket.
I could barely give an Israeli the time of day.AW
Thanks for sharing that AW.
Glad they got out.
Thats so heavy.
Basesix. Hi mate, I’m with you, exiting now, too toxic and upsetting for me.
Back to plants, way better discussion points than war. Over and out. AW
yeah, AW, I have a tendency to lean toward the person I am talking to. I am aware I sometimes lean too far, but it is just because it generally yields more positive results. Apologies for generalising and simplifying. I have posted more nuanced views previously, but this topic does my head in. I'll go google that tough nugget plant you just posted, much healthier use of my time : )
basesix wrote:yeah, AW, I have a tendency to lean toward the person I am talking to. I am aware I sometimes lean too far, but it is just because it generally yields more positive results. Apologies for generalising and simplifying. I have posted more nuanced views previously, but this topic does my head in. I'll go google that tough nugget plant you just posted, much healthier use of my time : )
It’s ok mate, you’re entitled to write what you feel, geez, I do. I get very upset because I’ve known their two kids from birth, his wife and mine (well now ex) are best mates, that’s how they ended up in Scandinavia. What hurts the most is seeing my son grow up to the 22 year old he is today, in a free and liberal country without any impediment, then I think of Ghattas whose boy and girl are just turning that age where even remaining alive let alone achieve scholastic results in an university in Norway recently, both groups on a similar trajectory but oh how hard it was for them is true testament to the parents.
If I ever hear anyone in Australia complain about anything, I will clonk them on the head and remind them how fortunate we all are. Take care mate. AW
It's stories like this, AW, that give this thread any worth. Cheers for sharing.
Just would like people to calm the fuck down when talking about fellow humans.
Soo good to have you and the botany thread back, gis a bell if you feel like a chat.
About to launch into a google search, it is a chenop/rhaggy kinda thing, right?
Roadkill wrote:soggy dog, there ain’t much in your head if……“Firstly people would probably stop fearing for their lives, children would stop being shot, people would not be subject to illegal eviction at the hands of settlers. People would become less radical over an extremely long time. People would be able to address the domestic situation properly as the threat of external forces becomes less of a problem. Diplomacy could be re- established. Hostages/prisoners could be exchanged.”…is the best you can come up with.
Clueless and naive at best.
The dude just live's in a complete fantasy land, its unbelievable how gullible some people are.
southernraw wrote:Just a quick observation to share. Speaking to my ex in Tel Aviv, before oct 7, her perceived threat of invasion/violence from hamas on tel aviv was about a 1/10.
Post oct 7, with security breaches done, the middle east stirred up, Gaza obliterated and all that comes with that her perceived threat of invasion or violence from Hamas, is a 1/10.
Just for some perspective.
Makes complete sense, and my heart goes out to her.
Israel has a very good history of bering able to keep its borders secure and people safe, and have things like the Iron dome to shoot down rockets.
But after what happened on 7th October all Israel's now know they are not as safe as they thought and if it happened once it can happen again, im sure her and others won't feel safe until Hamas is destroyed, but even then she might not ever feel as safe as before.
Pot kettle black
indo-dreaming wrote:southernraw wrote:Just a quick observation to share. Speaking to my ex in Tel Aviv, before oct 7, her perceived threat of invasion/violence from hamas on tel aviv was about a 1/10.
Post oct 7, with security breaches done, the middle east stirred up, Gaza obliterated and all that comes with that her perceived threat of invasion or violence from Hamas, is a 1/10.
Just for some perspective.Makes complete sense, and my heart goes out to her.
Israel has a very good history of bering able to keep its borders secure and people safe, and have things like the Iron dome to shoot down rockets.
But after what happened on 7th October all Israel's now know they are not as safe as they thought and if it happened once it can happen again, im sure her and others won't feel safe until Hamas is destroyed, but even then she might not ever feel as safe as before.
"if it happens once, it could happen again"
Reckon they could accidentally fall asleep on the fence that not even a fox could pass through again Indo?
indo-dreaming wrote:Roadkill wrote:soggy dog, there ain’t much in your head if……“Firstly people would probably stop fearing for their lives, children would stop being shot, people would not be subject to illegal eviction at the hands of settlers. People would become less radical over an extremely long time. People would be able to address the domestic situation properly as the threat of external forces becomes less of a problem. Diplomacy could be re- established. Hostages/prisoners could be exchanged.”…is the best you can come up with.
Clueless and naive at best.
The dude just live's in a complete fantasy land, its unbelievable how gullible some people are.
But not the same fantasies as you eh’? As expressed across this thread previously.
How’s the search for evidence going? Something about gullible.
Roadkill, which one of the things I listed, without imposing your own prejudice, are beyond possibility. I re-iterate. No bias or interpretations, sticking to the facts. And to do that you may have to watch some of what JF posted with an open mind.
Roadkill wrote:I would love someone to tell me what they think would happen if Israel pulled all their forces out of Gaza now, in 2 hrs there will be zero Israel IDF in Gaza. There will be no more air attacks. There will be no more rocket attacks. Israel pulls up sticks and go back within their borders.
What would happen? Anyone care to have a crack at the answer?
I can tell you, Hamas would stay in power and all the aid money would flood in to rebuild and help the people, some of it would go to that, and some of it would go to Hamas leaders making them even richer, some would also go to rebuilding tunnels and making more rockets.
Gaza would stay a complete shit hole because the minimal amount of money would be spent on the people.
The rocket's getting fired at Israel would go on and off like they have for decades and then when Hamas has strengthened again they would aim for another 7th October.
It would be a complete disaster for everyone, Israelis and civilians in Gaza and it would be a guarantee that the cycle continues and another war happens.
The much better alternative is the cycle is broken Hamas is taken out of power and a new government that isn't interested in war and killing Jews is formed and the government cares about its people and actually spends money on its people.
Is it guaranteed that the next government will be better?
No but you need to have a go, we didn't let hitler and the nazis live on because we were worried about who would replace them and when you have a government that purposely uses its own people as human shield's, then can you really get a worse government?
Has there even ever been another government who has used such a tactic before?
I mean as vile and low as the tactic is, it is smart because if Hamas didn't hide among civilians the war would be over in a week and there would barely be any Hamas simps in the West because there would be close to no civilians dead.
Indo...."The much better alternative is the cycle is broken Hamas is taken out of power and a new government that isn't interested in war and killing Jews is formed and the government cares about its people and actually spends money on its people.".
Can this cycle be broken without a machine gun to the fox in the henhouse though? Especially considering they have their targeted enemy contained within four walls. A farkin fair advantage in any war (has that ever happened in history??)
Because the machine gun to the fox in the henhouse just seems so brutal, uncompromising and reeks of an agenda.
Bomb them so heavily the remaining shell shocked victims denounce any resistance. Is that a summary of your plan. To break the cycle.
spot on @soggydog
southernraw wrote:Indo...."The much better alternative is the cycle is broken Hamas is taken out of power and a new government that isn't interested in war and killing Jews is formed and the government cares about its people and actually spends money on its people.".
Can this cycle be broken without a machine gun to the fox in the henhouse though? Especially considering they have their targeted enemy contained within four walls. A farkin fair advantage in any war (has that ever happened in history??)
Because the machine gun to the fox in the henhouse just seems so brutal, uncompromising and reeks of an agenda.
It's happened countless times through history rarely are both sides equal and when they are its even worse because it often mean's a long arm wrestle of a war often with death and destruction on both sides but no real outcome.
War is not meant to be equal or fair, its only meant to be won.
Then the winner gets the outcome they are after historically this normally meant gaining land or resources but in this case its getting Hamas out of power and trying to ensure there is no group strong enough or game enough to attack Israel again, plus it's also about sending a clear message to others like Hezbollah if they try to do the same as Hamas did on 7th October the same response will happen to them.
BTW. It also doesn't mean the country destroyed will forever be enemies with those who destroyed them, two great examples are Germany & Japan, they were both defeated Japan even nuked by the USA, and those countries are now allies or have friendly relations with those who took them out, even the people of these nations often move on.
Yeah i dunno Indo.
As far as i can see, we are in completely different worlds to the way we are observing what's going on over there.
I'd encourage you to read J.Fs earlier post and address some of the facts in it....here...i'll repost it for you.
Jelly Flater wrote:- ‘ War is hell, but there are those who thrive on it and they need to be contained. ‘ ……hmmmmmmmm ;)
8:06 mark of vid:
“The application of power is the most important thing in winning the war on terrorism. The more victories you amass, the easier the next victory becomes. The first victory in Afghanistan makes the second victory in Iraq that much easier. The second victory in Iraq will make the third victory that much easier too.”
Benjamin Netanyahu insisted that the United States did not need approval from the international community to wage war on Iraq.
So… according to the statements above by netanyahu in his address to the US congress in the late 90’s - the US should invade countries in the middle east and enact regime change in order to GUARANTEE the safety of the region and to uphold peace and stability ;);)
Anyone here care to address the farkn almighty elephant stampede ? ;);)
- anyone care to address the ‘victories’ that supposedly would occur and how each ‘victory’ will be easier and easier ? Is there any truth to this BS ? Coz this is utter BS. And anyone still wanna pretend there is actual support for Hamas here ? There is zero support. Farkn zilch ;)
And pointing out the BS and warmongering rhetoric and actions of Israel and the US is treason ? Haha… treachery ? Hahaha ;);) Just for the confused farkwits like gr, the dill and co…. Critiquing US foreign policy and the words and actions of bibi don’t amount to support for Hamas. Give that up dickheads ;);)
Carefully examine and listen to the BS from netanyahu about iraq and ‘weapons of mass destruction’ etc… consider his ‘guarantee’ of how regime change and military interventions will be of a benefit to the region ;);)
- any proof ? Any concrete results to back up the BS or has it been proven to be BS ? Were those predictions correct or manufactured lies ?…was there a ‘victory’ in Afghanistan ? Haha ;)
- was there a ‘victory’ in Iraq ? ;);)Define victory… is it the body count ? The clandestine theft of oil ? Do you guys realise the very first act in Iraq was the taking of the oil fields ? ;);)
Can the farkn numbnuts here evoking the value and merits of all these supposedly necessary conflicts inspired by netanyahu’s false and inflammatory fantasies really defend the reality of the track record ?
- from Iraq and Afghanistan there is a body count of over 100’s of thousands of civilians and innocent noncombatants and no actual enhanced security, stability or peace in the region. The very opposite of what was promised has occurred. Facts.Nothing occurred other than the destruction of a country and the rise of Islamic extremism as a direct result of an illegal invasion and occupation. Facts. Military intervention failed. Facts again ;)
Are the US or Israel responsible or accountable for their errors ? The war in Iraq was deemed an illegal war. The wmds were part of a structured effort of deceit and fear mongering propaganda that enabled a war on a false premise. It was all lies. This is proven, it cannot be disputed ;)
(The wmds are in the animated subterranean central command centre under the hospital haha)
…and for anyone questioning or defending so called democracy. Pls explain and communicate where democracy is at play with what is happening in Gaza ;);)
I’ve repeatedly asked why ppl are choosing to ignore the violations of international law taking place in order to achieve the genocide we are witnessing. Is it similar to when bibi said the US does not need the approval of the international community to wage war on Iraq ? ;);)
It’s the same playbook. Same methodology. Same madman pulling the strings and trying to say something yet doing something else. Anyone with a brain can’t defend anything bibi is doing now, let alone anything he presented and sold to the US war machine with regard to Iraq/ Afghanistan.
To expect that the indiscriminate killing of Palestinians will achieve a lasting peace and provide any solution is both absolutely absurd and completely false. To pretend what is occurring now as being a necessity is no different to claiming that the end of Saddam will eliminate the ‘threat’. It’s just more BS.
So keep flying ya flags of murder as justice and keep kidding ya selves on how this will create a constructive or positive outcome. It’s the perfect example of insanity by doing the same thing over and expecting a different result.
…. then AND now ;);)
https://youtu.be/rVPauUOVrmk?si=M-x1SNYb31BkdRcv
- and to listen to and consider the words and reasoning of @andymac is a gift compared to the crazy paranoid rambling lies of a corrupt dictator like bibi. For anyone trying to defend Israeli ‘justice’ you are endorsing occupation, apartheid, conscription and zionist ideology. (Not exactly accurate representations of so called modern western democracy)
Here you go Indo.
This is worth a fair chunk of reflection in my opinion.
Sorry but that is just a whole heap of mumbo jumbo garbage and comparing apples with oranges, all conflicts wars are different this is in no way the same as other conflicts mentioned.
Id love you to answer this though.
What do you think the alternative response from Israel after 7th Oct should have been?
Just let it all slide?
And then then just hope they can satisfy the demands of Hamas to release hostages?
You actually think that's mumbo jumbo garbage Indo.
I'll happily answer your question, but please, just address one key point for me of J.Fs post and explain why it's mumbo jumbo. Fair?
To answer your question, please refer to my brilliant fox in the henhouse analogy.
There are ways to deal with an enemy contained within four walls that don't neccesarily involve taking a machine gun to all the innocent chickens. When you have time and territory on your side, why the mindless destruction...(rhetorical question...no need to answer).
But yes, would appreciate you addressing one of J.Fs points.
Cheers!
AW
I stopped following this thread earlier in the week .
Mentioned two weeks ago , I thought it should be discontinued .
I can't say I know anyone , very well , with a Lot of Skin the game .
I haven't , yet , read your posts about the family .
Or the reactions .
If I choose , I can do more research , on the atrocities caused by Mercantilism and Religion .
It's hard but I have done a lot , maybe too much .
Now very selective on what I FEEL , I need to read .
Guessing U feel similar .
Will read yours a bit later , it has been a tough day bloody working on ( how to deal with the boss ) retiring .
Never been so busy haha !
I am popping down , for tonight .
Pop :)
Edit
Of course I have read them already ( would't sleep otherwise ) .
AW
Shit , a terrible first word Tank !!!!
These haunting memories that children have to bear , hurt me the most .
Like with our FNP , I have no Skin in that game either .
I try and then think of the Good Things happening to children ALL over this Wonderful World .
Base 6 wrote a nice piece about kids having fun at Christmas .
I might read that , again .
Right AW !
It's also like a rogue Shark imho .
Kill it !
Pop Down wrote:AW
I stopped following this thread earlier in the week .
Mentioned two weeks ago , I thought it should be discontinued .
I can't say I know anyone , very well , with a Lot of Skin the game .
I haven't , yet , read your posts about the family .
Or the reactions .
If I choose , I can do more research , on the atrocities caused by Mercantilism and Religion .
It's hard but I have done a lot , maybe too much .
Now very selective on what I FEEL , I need to read .
Guessing U feel similar .
Will read yours a bit later , it has been a tough day bloody working on ( how to deal with the boss ) retiring .
Never been so busy haha !
I am popping down , for tonight .
Pop :)
PopDown. Take care mate. I’d seriously like someone from management to shut it down immediately, too many dangling lines with baits attached. AW
southernraw wrote:You actually think that's mumbo jumbo garbage Indo.
I'll happily answer your question, but please, just address one key point for me of J.Fs post and explain why it's mumbo jumbo. Fair?
To answer your question, please refer to my brilliant fox in the henhouse analogy.
There are ways to deal with an enemy contained within four walls that don't neccesarily involve taking a machine gun to all the innocent chickens. When you have time and territory on your side, why the mindless destruction...(rhetorical question...no need to answer).
But yes, would appreciate you addressing one of J.Fs points.
Cheers!
This issue is already complex enough without throwing in the mix other wars in the middle east, i have zero time for Jelly or anything he says or shares, the guy is a complete nutter and clearly hates both Jews and USA.
I will take this bit though to satisfy your request
"To expect that the indiscriminate killing of Palestinians will achieve a lasting peace and provide any solution is both absolutely absurd and completely false. To pretend what is occurring now as being a necessity is no different to claiming that the end of Saddam will eliminate the ‘threat’. It’s just more BS.
So keep flying ya flags of murder as justice and keep kidding ya selves on how this will create a constructive or positive outcome. It’s the perfect example of insanity by doing the same thing over and expecting a different result."
Lets take that last bit, has Israel ever tried to destroy Hamas before like this?
No
Israel has taken many different alternative approaches in the past and all havent worked.
In 2005 Israel actually gave Gaza away in hope of achieving peace, they didn't have to do this but Gaza historically never was part of Israel in the times of the Kingdom of Israel and Judah about 2,500 years ago, so i assume this is why they were willing to do so.
Giving over Gaza in the hope of peace even helping out providing water and energy hasn't worked.
The second approach of not retaliating and just trying to absorb attacks with the protection of the iron dome hasn't worked its been tried for years.
And retaliating in a measured approach to try to warn Hamas that there is more to come if you dont stop hasnt worked.
Three different approaches haven't worked, there is only one thing left to do, and that is to go in hard and destroy hamas do the job once and once properly, that is what is now happening.
Its been shown all through history that you can win wars like this even ideology based ones like destroying the Nazis
And BTW there is no real number one leader as such like Sudam Husain or Hitler to take out.
As for avoiding civilian casualties, its crazy to think that if possible Israel would not avoid civilian deaths, they gain nothing at all from civilian deaths, it actually only benefits Hamas and is actually their strategy for two reasons.
1. To try to get support from other middle east countries and get them to attack Israel that so far hasnt really worked, because most middle east countries really dont want to go to war with Israel and Gaza and Hamas isn't even that well liked by some middle east countries, their neighbour Egypt being a great example.
2. To gain western sympathy and support and turn people against Israel and to put public pressure on especially USA to not give Israel as much support, in a sense this is working you see it happening here, despite Israel being attacked and civilians murdered and kidnapped, many now see Israel as the bad guys.
Not to mention has there ever been an army that has gone to such lengths to avoid civilian casualties like getting people to move to safer areas sending out SMS to notify them or dropping flyers from planes.
Problem is there has never been an enemy that purposely uses civilians as human shield's, all through history armies do the complete opposite standing in front of civilians trying to protect them not behind them.
Anyway you really didnt answer my question, im honestly very curious because listening to all military analyst it would be impossible to destroy Hamas in any other way than currently is happening.
The only half decent point that i think Andy-Mac made is to go after the real big cats like leaders sitting in Qatar but i dont expect its that easy and id expect comes with other political ramification's with Qatar etc, plus it still leaves the tunnels, rockets and Hamas in Gaza and im sure there will be leaders in Gaza ready to take their place.
The other alternative is to go after the puppet master Iran that has helped finance Hamas.
But do we really want that?
That would be a much bigger war that would involve USA and most likely their allies including us.
I personally dont have the knowledge or understanding on Iran, but it does seem dangerous allowing them to develop nuclear weapons.
A thought Popped into my head .
If this thread was like a Court Room , I wonder if the Judge is thinking, I have heard this evidence before ?
Maybe , he is thinking he has heard enough from the lawyers ?
Maybe , he thinks he gets the idea of what has happened ?
Maybe , he has other important things to do ?
Go Surfing .
Haha @lowinfo…
- you can’t answer a single point with anything of substance… can’t argue the proven facts to do with the failed military campaigns of the US war machine.. and pretend to ignore any association with this incursion as another proxy event for US foreign policy…
Being a nutter is to deny the enormous and profound effects of violent invasion and occupation on nations and their people. The death and destruction coupled with the civilian body count of military intervention have in no way created peace nor stability nor guaranteed any future improvements as was predicted previously… so explain why this will be different… explain the so called ‘guarantee’ ;)
This comment of yours is farkn absurd :
- “ has there ever been an army that has gone to such lengths to avoid civilian casualties like getting people to move to safer areas sending out SMS to notify them or dropping flyers from planes. “
… haha wtf ? You do realise fleeing civilians who were told to go to specific safe zones were then bombed and killed ? You do understand journalists have been targeted and murdered as well as children ? And how the fark do ppl charge iphones without electricity or get sms without mobile or wifi when… ummm… there is none ? ;);)
Explain the actual proven benefits of the mass killing of a population… give us the evidence of and proof in accordance with bibi’s guarantee of a more safe and secure Middle East… explain how this time it’ll be miraculously different… and why the taliban still rule Afghanistan… haha. (You know… the conflicting evidence).
Go on… ;)
- explain how stability and freedom will surely thrive after such an enormous amount of women and children are slaughtered by an army that has supposedly gone to ‘such lengths to avoid civilian casualties…’
Coz u can’t you dumb cunt lowinfo ;)
“ I personally dont have the knowledge or understanding… “ is the only thing you’ve written that makes sense ;);)
https://m.
Jelly you are nothing but a anti Jewish Hamas loving simp and a complete traitor to Western civilisation, you should do us all a favour a buy a one way ticket to Gaza and join Hamas.
The bigger question is how the fuck did we ever end up with people like you in the west and how do we deal with people like you?
Honestly i dont have the answer's on that.
Did stability and freedom come after Nazi Germany was toppled from power or Japan that was even nuked.
Yes and both countries are now even allies of those who were at war with them.
BTW. There obviously was electricity and phone signal when Israel sent out SMS messages to get people to move south this was back in October.
"GAZA, Oct 22 (Reuters) - Palestinians said they had received renewed warnings from Israel's military to move from north Gaza to the south of the strip, with the added warning that they could be identified as sympathisers with a "terrorist organisation" if they stayed put.
The message was delivered in leaflets marked with the Israel Defense Forces name and logo from Saturday and sent to people via mobile phone audio messages across the Gaza Strip, a narrow territory that is just 45 km (28 miles) long"
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-tells-gazans-move-south...
You can hate the west and the good old U.S. of A. all you like, but they are the only thing stopping China from taking a big empty chunk of unprotected real estate called Australia.
Fark lowinfo…
- I got nothing against jews.
To conflate criticism of zionist ideology as anti jewish shows how dumb u are… what do we do with dumb fucks who can’t make this distinction… ;);)
- really…. try understanding the difference. The fact you still have this misconception is obvious and highlights your idiocy…
Try defend israeli policy in regard to evacuating etc all you want. The murder of fleeing civilians occurred, as did the killing of journalists and aid workers….
- another interesting point is how the idf that recently killed three of their own hostages (and from israeli accounts) shot them in cold blood as they exited a dwelling holding sticks with white flags…
U got it backwards in soooo many ways ;)
Armies are nice.
So is war.
U may as well enjoy it hey lowinfo ;);)
https://m.
&pp=ygUbd2UgY2FyZSBhIGxvdCBmYWl0aCBubyBtb3Jl Bullshit you hate Jews you love Hamas, you are the biggest piece of trash ever, its just a pity hell doesn't exist for your to rot in.
Haha ;)
- u go Karen ;);)
…. I’m goin to planet heaven! Yeeeeew ;)
Ummmmm…. remember how u tried to say in regard to this below post it’s mumbo jumbo and comparing apples and oranges ?
- and then u conveniently ignored all actual questions in regard to Iraq and Afghanistan (entirely relevant and appropriate in relation to bibi’s endorsement of war through lies and guaranteed resolution of peace and stability)
… and then u try use ww2 as a comparison ….haha
Fark u are really off the boil ;);)
So… just a reminder. Iraq was an illegal war. It was encouraged/ engineered with netanyahu as a willing instigator and influencer. His speeches to US congress provide the actual evidence of manipulating facts and providing proven false information to endorse military intervention and regime change to ensure ‘peace’ in the region.
It failed.
So… try endorse this current conflict all you want…
- try explain away the ‘goodness’ of israeli tactics etc…
And try explain why you’re unable to directly address any points / questions put forward in regard to the corruption and evil of netanyahu or Zionist ideology. ( and the continued broken guarantees of peace)
…thing is …u can’t ;);)
Keep cherry picking your fundamental extremism…
- and float on dumb cunt ;);)
……….
- ‘ War is hell, but there are those who thrive on it and they need to be contained. ‘ ……hmmmmmmmm ;)
8:06 mark of vid:
“The application of power is the most important thing in winning the war on terrorism. The more victories you amass, the easier the next victory becomes. The first victory in Afghanistan makes the second victory in Iraq that much easier. The second victory in Iraq will make the third victory that much easier too.”
Benjamin Netanyahu insisted that the United States did not need approval from the international community to wage war on Iraq.
So… according to the statements above by netanyahu in his address to the US congress in the late 90’s - the US should invade countries in the middle east and enact regime change in order to GUARANTEE the safety of the region and to uphold peace and stability ;);)
Anyone here care to address the farkn almighty elephant stampede ? ;);)
- anyone care to address the ‘victories’ that supposedly would occur and how each ‘victory’ will be easier and easier ? Is there any truth to this BS ? Coz this is utter BS. And anyone still wanna pretend there is actual support for Hamas here ? There is zero support. Farkn zilch ;)
And pointing out the BS and warmongering rhetoric and actions of Israel and the US is treason ? Haha… treachery ? Hahaha ;);) Just for the confused farkwits like gr, the dill and co…. Critiquing US foreign policy and the words and actions of bibi don’t amount to support for Hamas. Give that up dickheads ;);)
Carefully examine and listen to the BS from netanyahu about iraq and ‘weapons of mass destruction’ etc… consider his ‘guarantee’ of how regime change and military interventions will be of a benefit to the region ;);)
- any proof ? Any concrete results to back up the BS or has it been proven to be BS ? Were those predictions correct or manufactured lies ?
…was there a ‘victory’ in Afghanistan ? Haha ;)
- was there a ‘victory’ in Iraq ? ;);)
Define victory… is it the body count ? The clandestine theft of oil ? Do you guys realise the very first act in Iraq was the taking of the oil fields ? ;);)
Can the farkn numbnuts here evoking the value and merits of all these supposedly necessary conflicts inspired by netanyahu’s false and inflammatory fantasies really defend the reality of the track record ?
- from Iraq and Afghanistan there is a body count of over 100’s of thousands of civilians and innocent noncombatants and no actual enhanced security, stability or peace in the region. The very opposite of what was promised has occurred. Facts.
Nothing occurred other than the destruction of a country and the rise of Islamic extremism as a direct result of an illegal invasion and occupation. Facts. Military intervention failed. Facts again ;)
Are the US or Israel responsible or accountable for their errors ? The war in Iraq was deemed an illegal war. The wmds were part of a structured effort of deceit and fear mongering propaganda that enabled a war on a false premise. It was all lies. This is proven, it cannot be disputed ;)
(The wmds are in the animated subterranean central command centre under the hospital haha)
…and for anyone questioning or defending so called democracy. Pls explain and communicate where democracy is at play with what is happening in Gaza ;);)
I’ve repeatedly asked why ppl are choosing to ignore the violations of international law taking place in order to achieve the genocide we are witnessing. Is it similar to when bibi said the US does not need the approval of the international community to wage war on Iraq ? ;);)
It’s the same playbook. Same methodology. Same madman pulling the strings and trying to say something yet doing something else. Anyone with a brain can’t defend anything bibi is doing now, let alone anything he presented and sold to the US war machine with regard to Iraq/ Afghanistan.
To expect that the indiscriminate killing of Palestinians will achieve a lasting peace and provide any solution is both absolutely absurd and completely false. To pretend what is occurring now as being a necessity is no different to claiming that the end of Saddam will eliminate the ‘threat’. It’s just more BS.
So keep flying ya flags of murder as justice and keep kidding ya selves on how this will create a constructive or positive outcome. It’s the perfect example of insanity by doing the same thing over and expecting a different result.
…. then AND now ;);)
?si=M-x1SNYb31BkdRcv- and to listen to and consider the words and reasoning of @andymac is a gift compared to the crazy paranoid rambling lies of a corrupt dictator like bibi. For anyone trying to defend Israeli ‘justice’ you are endorsing occupation, apartheid, conscription and zionist ideology. (Not exactly accurate representations of so called modern western democracy)
^^^ those ‘victories’ just get ‘easier’ and ‘easier’ ;);)
- and feel free to provide any evidence of anything I’ve said above that is pro hamas or anti jew… ;)
…. U got nothing.
indo-dreaming wrote:Bullshit you hate Jews you love Hamas, you are the biggest piece of trash ever, its just a pity hell doesn't exist for your to rot in.
You are and have been the only person on this thread that is an advocate of genocide. Presenting it as the only option, “The Final Solution”. Yet you accuse others of hate,
whilst you advocate the most extreme manifestation of hate.
Most of what you have written is un-educated opinion. Which maybe similar to a lot of us the only difference being nobody else is calling for genocide. Just you.
indo-dreaming wrote:Bullshit you hate Jews you love Hamas, you are the biggest piece of trash ever, its just a pity hell doesn't exist for your to rot in.
This is the very same pea-brained imbecile that has called for rational debate time and time again and doesn’t respond to people for’diss’ on others. From the shallow end of the gene pool is our @info
Listening to Dr Norman Finkelstien Yesterday. He revealed that there has been a UN resolution voted on every year for a two state solution. A return to 1967 borders in accordance with international law. It has been continuously blocked each year, but only by Israel and the US with some different South Pacific island state providing quid pro quo support .
So another bit of info for Indo, GR and RK. The two state solution has been agreed to by Hamas and supported by every other country in the UN. Except Isreal and the US.
Or you can believe the lies to justify genocide.
You going to look into it or dismiss it because maybe you’d have to change your mind Indo?
@jelly "Go on… ;)
- explain how stability and freedom will surely thrive after such an enormous amount of women and children are slaughtered by an army that has supposedly gone to ‘such lengths to avoid civilian casualties…’"
A couple of tweets from Trump had the patriots storming the Capitol, imagine what they would have done if their kids and wives had been bombed and their neighbourhoods flattened
You couldn't design a better recruitment campaign for Hamas and jihadists if you tried.
And southernraw, I think the henhouse was bombed out of existence
Indo..is comfortably living in the heads of so many. Lmao…fuck it’s hilarious to watch the spit fly as the crew type away in fury.
basesix wrote:Now RK, you have avoided a very important question..
How good was pipe, esp the women's final..?
Aaahh, common ground.
Women’s final was right up there with the best. Was a worthy final and showed what can be done. Groundbreaking stuff.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concern...
Some light reading for those that seek the truth.
@Indo
Forced relocation of a civilian population is a crime against humanity and a war crime.
Labeling a civilian population "human shields" is not a defence to the war crime of targeting civilian populations, neighborhoods and hospitals.
Under customary International Law and Article 51 of the UN Charter the right of self defence by a State can be exercised when another State attacks it or it justifiably believes it is about to, after notification to the Security Council.
Whatever the IDF is doing in Gaza it is not an exercise of the right of self defence under International Law. Hamas is a terrorist organisation, Gaza is an occupied territory. Neither are States.
Israel is a full UN member but does not recognise the jurisdiction of the ICC, because it refuses to recognise Palestinian Statehood, thereby exposing the legal lie that it is acting in self defence at law.
It is defending itself for sure, but it's not legally doing it under the established rules of war.
Israel is currently in breach of 29 Security Council binding resolutions.
Like many States, they flout International Law and convention as it suits their national and domestic political interests. Their government, military and leadership are not the "good guys" you portray who do "good things" like drop relocation leaflets and give warnings before they bomb civilian neighborhoods. Telling someone you are about to commit a war crime on them is not a defence to the war crime committed.
There are no "good guys" in this conflict, other than the innocent civilians on both sides. None.
You mention the Nazis. Well Nazis were tried and hung at Nuremberg for actions similar to those being undertaken currently by the IDF in Gaza. Similar prosecutions took place at the Hague following the Kosovo War. Israel and the IDF get away with their crimes. Many others do too.
You have a habit of picking sides, mostly the wrong ones, pontificating a whole heap of ill informed right wing bullshit and then getting abusive and nasty with anyone who disagrees.
"Hamas loving simp"
He's a fucken' smart guy, Jellyboy. Articulate, informed, interesting and funny.
Everything you are not.
"Simp" seems to be the new word you discovered.
"Projection" should be the next.
I'm out, this thread is toxic.
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