The Israel Palestine problem solving thread
dandandan wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:@andy-mac & Dandandan (directed at you guys as you guys can actually have a proper conversation without insults etc)
Im curious what do you think Israel should do now in regard to Hamas?
Surely they cant just walk away and let it be?,
If they do the rockets will just continue and the risk of another attack in the future will be higher especially if key players survive and Hamas is not weakened in every way possible.
Hamas play by no rules whatsoever, but Israel is expected to abide by every single rule possible, while fighting an enemy that uses its people as human shield's.
Israel is expected to obey the rules of war, which they aren't. It is not too onerous a burden for one of the world's most sophisticated armed forces to not kill so many innocent people in their pursuit of justice against terrorists. It's an emotive stretch to claim they are supposed to play by "every single rule possible" when those laws are "don't commit war crimes."
It's not up to people like me or you to determine how they do go about achieving justice, but we are in our right to condemn them for what they are doing. There is an enormous chasm between "walking away" and the 6000 bombs, 5000 dead, at least 2000 children murdered, thousands injured and a million displaced in the last 17 days. An enormous chasm. If killing them is part of their plan, which seems to me is an unavoidable truth given how often they do it and how they show no remorse for it, then what they are committing is collective punishment. That is a war crime.
You know where I stand - I condemn Hamas's terrorists attack on innocent people, and I condemn Israel's war crimes. Almost all of this thread has been about the material reality of the present. It's not about ideologies, contested histories, or other detached musings - important things but not what most of us have been discussing. It's about bombs and bodies. Where do you stand, specifically on the innocent people killed by Israel, remembering that more than a third of them are children?
There you go again being one-sided and attacking only Israel.
It is Hamas who is committing the war crimes. They embed all their military infrastructure and operations in civilian areas. They use civilians as pawns and human shields. They prevent civilians from leaving the conflict areas; Israel gave ample opportunity for this.
The only way to avoid the implications of this is for Israel to do nothing. Is that what you think should happen?
Also, a lot of the information you and the media etc are basing your judgement on is Hamas and Iranian propaganda and information warfare, as per the hospital bombing situation.
It’s effectively a lose-lose situation for Israel since Hamas commits atrocities and then sets a trap by if Israel responds then Hamas has ensured that there will be a significant loss of civilian lives. This is how these terrorist barbarian animals operate.
You also fail to mention the killing still being done by Hamas in the war. They are still fully engaged in the conflict as well. And they are hoping Israel launches a full ground invasion; it’s what Hamas wants and has spent years preparing for.
Why are you so biased? What and who are you supporting? Are you antisemitic?
Not so flash at mathematics after all…
and since divine flopti and lowinfo have already hit the stage ;)
- every elephant hunt deserves a rendition of over dramatic proportions…
So… take it away…
#van life nutter ;)
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And now Australia is sending over troops ..
Farkin hell.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/24/the-west-bank-will-ignite-...
Back in 1980, Charlie knew what was coming
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andy-mac wrote:@Indo
I kind of outlined what I thought would be best response earlier but will put down some thoughts.
Firstly I do not know much about the internal political situation in Israel, but it seemed there were some major things happening with the judiciary and protests etc against present Govt. Due to this attack, I guess it will entrench the current govt who by my understanding are of a Hawkish nature in regards to Palistine and settlers etc. Not saying they had anything to do with attack but they will use it to further their agenda which will meet less resistance by other Israeli's now who may have been against it.
My first priority would be trying to get the hostages home safely via negotiations.
They do have to go after Hamas and the people responsible, but by bombing civilians whether being used as shields or not is not going to help Israel's cause. Special forces, intelligence gathering and targeted.
They will just create more enemies and hate, and who knows how many Israelis will die in street battles in Gaza. Also many supportive in the international community and arab world will start to withdraw their support for Israel. Some others will be looking for it to all escalate. I reckon it is exactly what Hamas want, and they are ready with tunnels etc. Do not want hot war between Iran and USA which could very well happen if things get out of control.
Do not think this problem can be solved with a purely military solution, so Israel needs to reach out to some more moderate Palestinian group and start negotiating some kind of solution. Can the 2 state solution be revived? Dunno.
Unlikely, but eventually happened in Northern Ireland and South Africa.
Finally and most importantly in my view, I would investigate how the attack was able to occur in the first place and ensure that something like that could never happen again, it was a major breakdown in their defence and security.Anyway bit of a rave, sure it will meet disagreement but I think they need to pause a bit and think through some of the ramifications of this kind of military exercise.
Thanks for the reply.
Yeah sorry I forget you did kinda answer before, i dont think i replied cause it just does my head in thinking about it all.
Before i say anything my views are based on listening to a whole range of views from X military, military channels, X Israel PM's, Israel defence force and watching the videos that show you daily whats happened targets hit where hamas have hit back etc
Regarding air strikes, you have to remember they have had years of intel and are still getting intel, since the attack they have even had missions sneaking in guys and got extra information from interrogation and even maps of tunnels from Hamas they captured in Israel, those air strikes are taking out all kinds of strategic hamas targets, some are even bunker busters, they even said to have taken out key Hamas members.
The air attacks and guided missiles are the real advantage Israel have once they go in by land they loose any advantage and the advantage swaps to Hamas.
All the X military/military channel's opinions ive listened too say the air strokes are an important part of the process to weaken Hamas and make them as weak and disorganised as possible before going in with the ground attack, they say if they dont do this, it makes a ground attack even harder and its going to be hard already many Israel's soldiers will die Hamas would have been preparing years for it to happen.
The whole civilians being used as human shield's thing sucks, its just impossible to fight an enemy that operates in this way, i just cant see how Israel can get around it, whatever you do its a no win situation, you dont take out Hamas targets because you might also take out some civilians and Hamas stay strong, take these targets out and many in the West will turn on you because some civilians will die and in a sense hamas still win.
I think its a better argument to not go in by land and just leave it at the air strikes once completed, because the loses for Israel are going to be big and its going to go on for months even could take a year or more, but then again if they dont Hamas will survive and continue to fire rockets into Israel and the risk of another 7 Oct will continue.
In regard to any deals or negotiations to alternative solutions, these things would have been explored not just now but for years, there will never be a two state solution Hamas and other group's arent interested in one for them its all or nothing, and even if you could get a deal done as soon as you let your guard down they will shot you in the back, they are clear in their charter they want all Jews dead.
In regard to those kidnapped, obviously they have been doing all they can to negotiate their release and you would expect have the best negotiators in the world from USA, the few releases of odd citizens are more theatre than anything, its a way to appear more positive, the others they are keeping alive are only kept alive because once dead they lose any value in getting what they want, but realistically Hamas are never going to negotiate a realistic deal, sadly the majority of those kidnapped will either be held for years as have value or will be killed, and the idea that some have died in airstrikes you cant believe, you cant believe anything Hamas says or controls (like health minister etc) including stats people throw around on civilian deaths, we saw how unrealistic these figure were when they said 500 hospital deaths from a minor blast where expert's say half a dozen dead would be more realistic.
You would expect the biggest reason they have held off on the land invasion is because of those kidnapped, im personally glad they have held off with ground invasion, going in to fast without a clear head would be dangerous the extra time im sure is being used wisely to negotiate hostage deals, get more intel, prepare and take out more Hamas target with air strikes.
Looking from the outside in I think Biden also needs to be given credit he had the balls to go over there and im sure he has helped delayed things and strangely enough his advice said publicly was sensible well balanced advice, obviously USA support is very important so its good Israel have listened to him.
Anyway i guess we just wait and see what happens next.
…elephant ballz
;);)
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&pp=ygUddGVhbSBhbWVyaWNhIGppaGFkIG9uIHlvdSB0b28%3D @dandandan
I think my above post sums up most aspects.
But again its almost impossible to fight a war against an enemy who uses their own people as human shield's, Israel can only do their best to. minimize civilian deaths..
Israel has even tried to get people to move south but Hamas has told then to stay and tried preventing from leaving, deaths to civilians is literally what Hamas want.
The real problem is both sides are playing by two completely different rules and expectations.
BTW. Obviously many civilians have died but like i said above stats on deaths are really unknown, you wouldn't believe ISIS on stats so why would you believe Hamas?, (they control everything, they are the government)
Again we saw how ridiculously inflated death count's were from hospital strike Hamas said 500 dead experts all say a dozen max more likely half a dozen but if there was nobody in that area there might not have even been one death we really dont know.
And when 20% of all Gaza rockets dont make it out of Gaza imagine how many have killed their own people remember there has been thousands of rockets fired, just on Oct 7th there was a few thousand fired.
Vow!
…viv all zis egzpert info, vun might sink u vork for z fbi ;)
- z fabulouz bullzhit inventorz.
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Yep, kind of sums it up.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/24/the-polarised-disc...
Jelly Flater wrote:Vow!
…viv all zis egzpert info, vun might sink u vork for z fbi ;)- z fabulouz bullzhit inventorz.
Bwahahah jelly brainz…you're killing it. So funny bro. That accent.
It never gets old or tired or repetitive. :)
Haha ;)
- you just described what it’d be like living under occupation ;);)
Well done dill… grab some hummus…
- save some for z elephants ;)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law_and_Israeli_settlement...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resoluti....
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gsco wrote:As per wiki, there was never any such thing as a Palestinian state until being set up at the same time as Israel was, after the British mandate period. The area has a very long, colourful and tumultuous history (and the whole idea of a nation-state is barely 100yrs old):
“Strategically situated between three continents, the region of Palestine (also known as the Land of Israel and the Holy Land) has a tumultuous history as a crossroads for religion, culture, commerce, and politics. Palestine is the birthplace of Judaism and Christianity, and has been controlled by many kingdoms and powers, including Ancient Egypt, Ancient Israel and Judah, the Persian Empire, Alexander the Great and his successors, the Hasmoneans, the Roman Empire, several Muslim caliphates, and the crusaders. In modern times, the area was ruled by the Ottoman Empire, then the British Empire and since 1948 it has been divided into Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine
The Jewish have the strongest claim to indigeneity out of any peoples.
The idea that Israel is an occupier-settler state or regime is completely reductive.
Is being Jewish a religious persuasion or an ethnicity. Because fuckwits from Melbourne born to Australian parents are making native title claims in Israel. Something that has most Australians,60%(check with Indo for Voice referendum stats), where fearful of happening here in Australia.
So boys, is Judaism a religious ideology or an ethnicity. Because a lot of the Jewish people there claiming settler rights are not originally from there.
"The Jewish have the strongest claim to indigeneity out of any peoples." @gsco
Yes @Soggydog.
gsco regards Jewish indigeneity as paramount. Yet with respect to the Voice, FNP indigeneity was discarded as the constitutional amendment was "race based" which was "racist" and delivered him inequality.
Jewish indigeneity apparently gives them the right to pummel Gaza to dust and carry on murderous revenge. FNP indigeneity gives them the right to fuck all, not even to have a non binding say in their own affairs.
The hypocrisy is glaring.
..points you raised clearly and often with these people @adam12.. absolutely unbelievable, some people's blinkers and prejudices, and the unconscious cultural-cringe and fear that supposed we couldn't have been capable of actually creating something unique, world-beating and inspirational here in Aus..
;);)
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Swellnet forums summarised nicely:
Toxic Mutation of an Ancient Hatred: Left-Wing Antisemitism
"Antisemitism is on the rise in many Western countries. On the postmodern left, this ancient hatred is often expressed as anti-Zionism which claims to be opposed to racism and colonialism. Yet because anti-Zionist discourse is an attack on the right of the State of Israel even to exist, it also antisemitic. This is because it denies both the very concept of Jewish peoplehood entitled to self-determination, and the right of a lawfully constituted state to safeguard the security of its borders and its people.
"The roots of postmodern left-wing antisemitism lie deep in the fertile soil of the combined forces of identity politics, anti-colonialism, and anti-imperialism unleashed in the 1960s and 1970s. What has made it front-page news is the manifestation of blatant, institutional antisemitism in the British Labour Party under Corbyn. Repeated failure to address it has led many to believe the party to be systemically antisemitic.
"In Australia, the political leaders of the postmodern left – especially in the ALP and the Australian Greens – have a vital opportunity to ensure that their long-standing commitment to the pursuit of justice and human decency is freed from the ugly taint of antisemitism."
The rise in antisemitism we have seen recently in Australia is not new. In 2019, CIS Director of the Culture, Prosperity & Civil Society program @pwkurti wrote a report on the topic. It remains even more relevant today.
— Centre for Independent Studies (@CISOZ) October 23, 2023
"Executive Council of Australian Jewry produces a report… pic.twitter.com/QdlBhyexIF
"What's distinct about this new mutation of antisemitism is that its object is the State of Israel rather than individual Jewish people. However, it extends to any Jews who demur from the view that Israel is a 'diabolical imperialist conspiracy that must be destroyed.'"@pwkurti pic.twitter.com/KcyyHF7QZW
— Centre for Independent Studies (@CISOZ) October 24, 2023
Your lack of self-awareness is astounding, mate.
After defending no voters from charges of racism, you now turn around and do the same thing.
gsco wrote:Swellnet forums summarised nicely:
Toxic Mutation of an Ancient Hatred: Left-Wing Antisemitism
"Antisemitism is on the rise in many Western countries. On the postmodern left, this ancient hatred is often expressed as anti-Zionism which claims to be opposed to racism and colonialism. Yet because anti-Zionist discourse is an attack on the right of the State of Israel even to exist, it also antisemitic. This is because it denies both the very concept of Jewish peoplehood entitled to self-determination, and the right of a lawfully constituted state to safeguard the security of its borders and its people.
"The roots of postmodern left-wing antisemitism lie deep in the fertile soil of the combined forces of identity politics, anti-colonialism, and anti-imperialism unleashed in the 1960s and 1970s. What has made it front-page news is the manifestation of blatant, institutional antisemitism in the British Labour Party under Corbyn. Repeated failure to address it has led many to believe the party to be systemically antisemitic.
"In Australia, the political leaders of the postmodern left – especially in the ALP and the Australian Greens – have a vital opportunity to ensure that their long-standing commitment to the pursuit of justice and human decency is freed from the ugly taint of antisemitism."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_for_Independent_Studies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Network
Ha yeah no angle from this lot.
;)
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Yeah nah! GSCO
As Stu said. Eye roll
ps coupla good clips JF
… van life nutter swinging from z trunk now ;)
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"Yet because anti-Zionist discourse is an attack on the right of the State of Israel even to exist, it also antisemitic. This is because it denies both the very concept of Jewish peoplehood entitled to self-determination, and the right of a lawfully constituted state to safeguard the security of its borders and its people."
The entire premise of everything else they've said here is based on an enormous leap that they've chosen to make all by themselves.
Conveniently, the CIS also chooses to blame the rise of anti-Semitism on what they deem the Left (no Leftist thinks the Labor party falls into that category lol), and not on the growth of right-wing extremism and the literal Nazis that wander around with impunity saying Heil Hitler and throwing off Nazi salutes, that left-wing activists punch on with on a regular basis.
I mean for crying out loud, the report literally says: "Although the antisemitic graffiti bore many of the tropes of right-wing antisemitism, it is clear that antisemitic views are now also being expressed more frequently on the political left in Australia." Giving examples of right-wing antisemitism and still somehow making it about the left? You've got to start reading other things mate.
Jelly Flater wrote:… van life nutter swinging from z trunk now ;)
Haha nice one @ 1.08
Less dead with that approach. Maybe that’s the two state solution. Brown eyes all round. No guns allowed.
ps No spitting either
@gsco. The Spectator and the Center for Independent Studies are not credible independent sources.
Criticising Israel for war crimes is not antisemitism.
The "center right" of Australian politics and discourse right now is the ALP, not your lot who are radical right wing reactionaries masquerading as conservatives.
You appear brainwashed by right wing propagandists.
Broaden your outlook and sources,.. or don't, I don't really care. But I would like to think you aren't just a more articulate version of the dullard Indo.
Lol look at all the butthurt lefties engage in their standard cancel culture mob behaviour, labeling anything conservative centre-right as radical right wing. Aww are the swellnet forums no longer a safe space for Marxism fantasising and decolonisation theory… You sure can’t handle getting your Socialist belief systems challenged and defeated by popular vote.
The ABC, The Guardian, The Saturday Paper, The Monthly, The Quarterly Essay, Chifley Research Centre, McKell Institute, etc, are not reputable sources. They’re Communist propaganda and disinformation bureaus peddling identity politics and critical race theory.
You’re brainwashed by Marxism. You need to get your head out of the Communism rabbit hole and back in the real world, where we are free and life is wonderful.
You know what, I've seen this before when my dad started to say things like "cultural Marxism" or "woke". I understood what was going on a lot more after listening to this, admittedly a few years old now, podcast: https://www.nytimes.com/column/rabbit-hole
reductionism is not challenging @gsco, just boorish, on any 'side'.
So there are two surveillance systems, one run by the IDF and the other run by Israeli settlers with funding from America.
@gsco, the last "conservative center right" leader in Australia threw out the Westminster system and a few hundred years of political and legal convention to make himself minister of multiple portfolios,
That's about as radical right wing reactionary as you can get in Australian politics.
He still sits in the parliament and is still a LNP member, revered by many on his side.
Just one example.
The fantasy land is all yours.
Open the windows in the bus. Fresh air. Check if you have a black mould infestation. Change the bong water.
Drop phone into the long drop. Don’t buy another one.
;)
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gsco wrote:Lol look at all the butthurt lefties engage in their standard cancel culture mob behaviour, labeling anything conservative centre-right as radical right wing. Aww are the swellnet forums no longer a safe space for Marxism fantasising and decolonisation theory… You sure can’t handle getting your Socialist belief systems challenged and defeated by popular vote.
The ABC, The Guardian, The Saturday Paper, The Monthly, The Quarterly Essay, Chifley Research Centre, McKell Institute, etc, are not reputable sources. They’re Communist propaganda and disinformation bureaus peddling identity politics and critical race theory.
You’re brainwashed by Marxism. You need to get your head out of the Communism rabbit hole and back in the real world, where we are free and life is wonderful.
Seek help mate, seriously your rants are becoming more and more delusional.
Or are you just taking the piss?
gsco wrote:Lol look at all the butthurt lefties engage in their standard cancel culture mob behaviour, labeling anything conservative centre-right as radical right wing. Aww are the swellnet forums no longer a safe space for Marxism fantasising and decolonisation theory… You sure can’t handle getting your Socialist belief systems challenged and defeated by popular vote.
The ABC, The Guardian, The Saturday Paper, The Monthly, The Quarterly Essay, Chifley Research Centre, McKell Institute, etc, are not reputable sources. They’re Communist propaganda and disinformation bureaus peddling identity politics and critical race theory.
You’re brainwashed by Marxism. You need to get your head out of the Communism rabbit hole and back in the real world, where we are free and life is wonderful.
Nobody has tried to cancel you princess, we’ve just shot a lot of holes in your algorithmic right wing clap trap.
Again, and try to answer the question this time. Is Judaism a religious persuasion or an ethnicity? Very important question.
seeds wrote:Open the windows in the bus. Fresh air. Check if you have a black mould infestation. Change the bong water.
Drop phone into the long drop. Don’t buy another one.
That was gold seeds
And look at them go, trying to label as unwell someone who doesn’t express the same leftist views as them.
I believe that this condescending, self-righteous, self-entitled attitude is what lost The Voice: labelling as mentally unwell, racist, uneducated, fascist, ignorant, etc, all No voters.
You really don’t learn do you. I wonder when the progressive left will actually realise it and wake up.
You’re actually not morally or intellectually superior to the conservative centre-right.
Haha …gullible sadcase conspiracy oracle ;)
- on a safari hunt and swallowing the dung…
Here you go… a tribute ;)
- the good juice
…shine on gsco ;););)
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gsco wrote:And look at them go, trying to label as unwell someone who doesn’t express the same leftist views as them.
I believe that this condescending, self-righteous, self-entitled attitude is what lost The Voice: labelling as mentally unwell, racist, uneducated, fascist, ignorant, etc, all No voters.
You really don’t learn do you. I wonder when the progressive left will actually realise it and wake up.
You’re actually not morally or intellectually superior to the conservative centre-right.
Sorry mate, must have caught the mind virus! :)
“You’re actually not morally or intellectually superior to the conservative centre-right.”
No I’m not? But I’m sane.
You my friend, are nowhere near conservative centre-right.
This is nuts, mate. Everything you say and accuse others of being, you then go and do yourself.
Hard to tell if we're part of some time-wasting indulgence or someone else has got access to your account.
Either way there's no consistency and it makes discussion pointless.
;)
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gsco When you refer to someone as a Communist or Marxist is this just a tongue in cheek insult or do you really think there are all these little Joseph Stalin minions running around stirring up trouble. It just that it tends to trivialise your argument every time you accuse someone of being one.
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Peace!
- great stuff… @andy-mac
Hamas did a war crime that has not been done before at this scale .
War crimes happen in all wars .
Ukrainian war from both sides .
Innocent women and children get slaughtered .
Armies provoke each other to induce battle .
Heads are thrown by both sides .
This provocation was at another level .
To plan to do what they did and FILM it OMG .
The Nazi's filmed this shit , but never planned to show the world , while fighting the war .
Imagine the world wide reaction !
It will be a wound on Israel that might never heal .
I would be angry , if I was a Jew .
We freaked out in Oz when some crazed gunman held hostages in a Sydney chocolate shop .
Pop Down wrote:We freaked out in Oz when some crazed gunman held hostages in a Sydney chocolate shop .
Yes, but did we level Lakemba as a response?
We , eventually , killed the guy who did it tbb .
I would have liked to see someone shoot him much earlier ie first opportunity .
I was not unhappy to see him go .
A very fair response imo .
No country in the world has had this kind of provocation imho .
The filmed slaughter and rape of hundreds of women and children , all loaded on the internet , forever .
And then told , have a look at this , come and get us , we are waiting , hiding behind our civilian shield with your people as hostages .
Do U agree this is a new war crime TBB ?
What would U do if U were the IDF ?
I am fucked if I know .
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