The Israel Palestine problem solving thread
Passed on generational hate. Zero chance of peace ever.
https://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/israelhamas-conflict-grim-fate...
Roadkill wrote:Passed on generational hate. Zero chance of peace ever.
https://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/israelhamas-conflict-grim-fate...
Guessing quite a few on both 'sides' don't want a peaceful solution.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/30/us-evangelical-christians-...
https://www.counterpunch.org/2023/10/30/the-children-of-gaza-2/
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-31/what-is-israels-current-war-strat...
Roadkill
Maybe watch the Israeli soldier clip last page. See what he says about his upbringing and indoctrination into the mind set.
andy-mac wrote:Roadkill wrote:Passed on generational hate. Zero chance of peace ever.
https://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/israelhamas-conflict-grim-fate...
Guessing quite a few on both 'sides' don't want a peaceful solution.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/30/us-evangelical-christians-...
https://www.counterpunch.org/2023/10/30/the-children-of-gaza-2/
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-31/what-is-israels-current-war-strat...
I think so @andymac.
My ex watched that vid i posted yesterday of the doctor speaking from a Jew's perspective.
She was pretty quick to label his claims as completely false re. the violent treatment over the years of Palestinians. It wasn't something i'm going to argue with her over, how am i to know what's right and wrong and details of each event, without being there.
There's also a fundamental belief amongst Israelis that Hamas need to be wiped out regardless of consequences. In her words, she said Hamas don't want Israel to exist anymore and that's not going to happen.
It's hard. Both sides anger energy rising.
There's no chance of any peaceful resolution with this current level of hatred towards each other.
She thinks that Palestinian civilians/workers who worked in Israel were also part of the Oct 7 attacks, so i guess in her eyes, and the eyes of Israelis, all Palestinian civilians are the enermy. The situations fucked.
All i could really say was that i sided with how Australia's Primeminister worded it, that we're on the side of getting rid of Hamas.
It's a delicate convo to have with a loved one and an easy one to mis step on.
Reckons there's alot of post trauma in the country at the moment.
I can't help but reflect on how that ex IDF soldier worded it. That Palestinians are considered as 'sub humans' by Israelis.
And how during a jewish holiday in the occupied West Bank, Palestinians are ordered to stay home during the duration of the Jewish celebration, and if they leave their homes, the order is shoot to kill. WTF!
southernraw wrote:andy-mac wrote:Roadkill wrote:Passed on generational hate. Zero chance of peace ever.
https://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/israelhamas-conflict-grim-fate...
Guessing quite a few on both 'sides' don't want a peaceful solution.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/30/us-evangelical-christians-...
https://www.counterpunch.org/2023/10/30/the-children-of-gaza-2/
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-31/what-is-israels-current-war-strat...
I think so @andymac.
My ex watched that vid i posted yesterday of the doctor speaking from a Jew's perspective.
She was pretty quick to label his claims as completely false re. the violent treatment over the years of Palestinians. It wasn't something i'm going to argue with her over, how am i to know what's right and wrong and details of each event, without being there.
There's also a fundamental belief amongst Israelis that Hamas need to be wiped out regardless of consequences. In her words, she said Hamas don't want Israel to exist anymore and that's not going to happen.
It's hard. Both sides anger energy rising.
There's no chance of any peaceful resolution with this current level of hatred towards each other.
She thinks that Palestinian civilians/workers who worked in Israel were also part of the Oct 7 attacks, so i guess in her eyes, and the eyes of Israelis, all Palestinian civilians are the enermy. The situations fucked.
All i could really say was that i sided with how Australia's Primeminister worded it, that we're on the side of getting rid of Hamas.
It's a delicate convo to have with a loved one and an easy one to mis step on.
Reckons there's alot of post trauma in the country at the moment.
I can't help but reflect on how that ex IDF soldier worded it. That Palestinians are considered as 'sub humans' by Israelis.
And how during a jewish holiday in the occupied West Bank, Palestinians are ordered to stay home during the duration of the Jewish celebration, and if they leave their homes, the order is shoot to kill. WTF!
Yep, so messed up. Tragic.
« Anyone who fights with monsters should take care not to become a monster. And if you look into an abyss for a long time, the abyss also looks into you (Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein)Friedrich Nietzsche, «“Jenseits von Gut und Böse”(Beyond good and evil)
Indeed @andymac.
And the world stands by defending Israel's right to defend itself.
When does defence morph into genocide?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/west-bank-palestinian-vill...
Oh about 1948.
southernraw wrote:This one's a longer watch, but brilliant nonetheless.
A jew who survived the holocaust discussing things in a rational and forward thinking way.
Highly educational.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHDBw-wx6w0
good vid
green room wrote:Go Woke™️
but yeh...
the 'decolonisation' set are way off track...
wtf do they expect?
seriously?!
andy-mac wrote:And the world stands by defending Israel's right to defend itself.
When does defence morph into genocide?https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/west-bank-palestinian-vill...
as the good doctor above says...
don't call it genocide... unless it actually IS genocide...
it's fucked up... but it ain't genocide...
emotive words are thrown around way too easily, and thus, just cheapens their meaning and impact...
having said that, israel is fucking loose
biden is a clown
and if I was one of those aussie pm's... I'd be feeling pretty embarrassed and a little bit dirty right now...
there's got to be a better way
by israels own words... they have only just begun...
can...
will...
biden and the pm's hold their line?
sypkan wrote:andy-mac wrote:And the world stands by defending Israel's right to defend itself.
When does defence morph into genocide?https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/west-bank-palestinian-vill...
as the good doctor above says...
don't call it genocide... unless it actually IS genocide...
it's fucked up... but it ain't genocide...
emotive words are thrown around way too easily, and thus, just cheapens their meaning and impact...
having said that, israel is fucking loose
biden is a clown
and if I was one of those aussie pm's... I'd be feeling pretty embarrassed and a little bit dirty right now...
there's got to be a better way
by israels own words... they have only just begun...
genocide
/ˈdʒɛnəsʌɪd/
noun
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.
"a campaign of genocide"
https://www.ushmm.org/genocide-prevention/learn-about-genocide-and-other...
yep
it ain't genocide...
systematic intentional wiping out of a whole group is genocide - as the good doc above says...
this is more careless collatoral damage
carefree collatoral damage?
sypkan wrote:yep
it ain't genocide...
systematic intentional wiping out of a whole group is genocide - as the good doc above says...
this is more careless collatoral damage
carefree collatoral damage?
Maybe not, maybe?
By my reading only C & D not actively happening.
well, you can argue back and forth until the cows come home...
but, by any measure, the israelis are not yet intentionally wiping out the whole palestinian 'race' in a systematic manner, like the nazis did with jews...
not yet...
they might be showing blatant disregard for human lives as a means to their end... but they are not specifically targeting civilians, rounding them up, sending them on trains, and gassing them to wipe them off the face of the earth like the nazis did...
interestingly, all these claims of 'war crimes' ...seems to overlook that Hamas are unashamedly using civilians as human shields...
which is, without a doubt, a war crime...
and, in regard to civilians / genocide / collatoral damage / collective punishment / human shields etc. etc...
common sense, and simplistic thinking, might tell us that killing civilians to get at a military installation must be a war crime... surely...
however, there was a international military law expert from some US uni on abc the other day. and he said it is not that simple
if one military force is using civilians as human shields to shelter their military installation, and another force kills said civilians to get at that installation... it is actually not so cut and dry, and this measure of 'proportionality' comes into play...
(maybe he was a jew)
anyway, don't shoot the messenger, just saying what I heard, because it seems every news story has their own bent on it, and nuance ain't even a thing anymore...
having said that, israel sure seem to be pushing the extremes of that 'proportionality'...
sypkan wrote:well, you can argue back and forth until the cows come home...
but, by any measure, the israelis are not yet intentionally wiping out the whole palestinian 'race' in a systematic manner, like the nazis did with jews...
not yet...
they might be showing blatant disregard for human lives as a means to their end... but they are not specifically targeting civilians, rounding them up, sending them on trains, and gassing them to wipe them off the face of the earth like the nazis did...
interestingly, all these claims of 'war crimes' ...seems to overlook that Hamas are unashamedly using civilians as human shields...
which is, without a doubt, a war crime...
and, in regard to civilians / genocide / collatoral damage / collective punishment / human shields etc. etc...
common sense, and simplistic thinking, might tell us that killing civilians to get at a military installation must be a war crime... surely...
however, there was a international military law expert from some US uni on abc the other day. and he said it is not that simple
if one military force is using civilians as human shields to shelter their military installation, and another force kills said civilians to get at that installation... it is actually not so cut and dry, and this measure of 'proportionality' comes into play...
(maybe he was a jew)
anyway, don't shoot the messenger, just saying what I heard, because it seems every news story has their own bent on it, and nuance ain't even a thing anymore...
having said that, israel sure seem to be pushing the extremes of that 'proportionality'...
I actually agree with everything you have said here.
Hamas has to be dealt with and I really have no idea what is best way to do that, my thinking is that they Israel are just really now making more future extreme enemies with present strategies.
Unless maybe their goal is to clear out Gaza and make it part of Israel?
My main point is what seems to be going on in West Bank as pointed out in linked article.
Settlers moving in with IDF help and creating situation where people who have lived there for generations being forced from their land and homes.
No not wiping out race , but definitely ethnically cleaning an area. Hamas did not attack from West Bank at it is governed by different group, but now with Hamas attack it seems they have used this to up the ante.
Hamas are abhorrent, but how many innocent civilians kids need to be killed to get Israel's revenge?
and I agree with everything you have said...
but there is one way this whole thing all ends tomorrow... and Hamas disarm israel with one very very easy simple move...
they release the hostages
but they will not!
because...
I agree that Hamas should release hostages immediately, but I highly doubt that doing so would stop Israel dropping bombs on Gaza.
Hamas should release hostages immediately, and Israel should stop bombing Gaza and stop any settlements in West Bank and let people return to their homes and land that have been occupied and live in peace.
Unfortunately not going to happen.
How this plays out, I cannot see any 'winners.'
Hope it is contained to this part of the world and doesn't escalate further.
dandandan wrote:I agree that Hamas should release hostages immediately, but I highly doubt that doing so would stop Israel dropping bombs on Gaza.
no it won't stop them, but it'd certainly slow them down, as they would instantly lose their carte blanche backing of their international backers to go so hard
it would open a door
atm, there's no light from anywhere
and it seems israel is commited to a months long assault, at a minimum...
shits gonna get real ugly before it gets better, maybe when the Hamas fatcats are starving they might consider it...
consider the state that the 'normal' society will be in to get to that...
words cannot capture
just saw ex israeli pm ehud on 7.30 report
good interview, ...didn't quite fulfill sarah ferguson's intro... well played... (both sides)
but he spelled out what needs to happen
ie. israel make their intentions clear
tell the world they do not intend to occupy gaza
have a plan with international intermediaries for the rebuilding and handing back of governance
two state solution!
etc.
the 'decolonisation' brigade won't like that...
but wtf do they expect anyway?
seriously, all this loopy talk has done any possible peace process no good at all... the crazy expectations of some, the crazy indoctrination... and ensuing inflating of expectations globally... will take some placating...
if that's now possible at all...
Fuck me you are a complete bore. Boar?
When was your last root? One boring arse. Academia? Do you find people trying to suffocate you?
well seedy cunt...
you bore me, all you do is bag people, and post idealistic / ideological bullshit that alludes to a position, then try and walk it back when you are put on the spot... so I avoid you... it is too easy to be high and mighty, ...and elusive...
so let us have it seedy cunt...
how do you see this decolonisation dream unfolding?
you don't see a two state solution as a viable option?
lay it out...
chicken man
As much as Israel wants and needs revenge for Hama’s actions, they still need to be accountable for their own actions. Nominating safe area for civilians then bombing those designated safe areas cannot be ‘collateral damage’ . They are war crimes.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67264703
Even if Israel somehow defeat Hamas at a great cost for all sides, Hamas is still just a name. They may take the head off the Hydra but there will new groups with thousands of more martyrs who have seen their families killed that will regrow as a new version of Hamas.
The two state solution long ago became the "safe" positive talking point for anyone asked about the future of Israel / Palestine. Most know the fishing line is in a hopeless tangle but who will say that to camera?
In reality, the two state solution is a house of cards which can have a supporting card flicked out from under it in so many ways (often violent) by those dead against it.
A core group of Israelis and Palestinians with very fixed viewpoints, will never accept it. They will do something to stuff it up.
A pessimistic but realitisic view.
The main benefit of the concept of a two state solution is that it gives both sides a talking point with a sense of hope - which is an alternative to fighting.
It allows everyone to extend and pretend in the midst of an almost unsolvable set of issues.
Advocating it is not, however, a badge of virtuous honour (like the "I am for world peace" beauty contestant speech) as it is commonly used. It is more a badge of naivity or, for those who understand the complexity, one of cynicism.
Many things in the world will sort of just muddle through as the best case scenario.
sypkan wrote:well seedy cunt...
you bore me, all you do is bag people, and post idealistic / ideological bullshit that alludes to a position, then try and walk it back when you are put on the spot... so I avoid you... it is too easy to be high and mighty, ...and elusive...
so let us have it seedy cunt...
how do you see this decolonisation dream unfolding?
you don't see a two state solution as a viable option?
lay it out...
chicken man
+1
Distracted wrote:As much as Israel wants and needs revenge for Hama’s actions, they still need to be accountable for their own actions. Nominating safe area for civilians then bombing those designated safe areas cannot be ‘collateral damage’ . They are war crimes.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67264703Even if Israel somehow defeat Hamas at a great cost for all sides, Hamas is still just a name. They may take the head off the Hydra but there will new groups with thousands of more martyrs who have seen their families killed that will regrow as a new version of Hamas.
Its not about revenge its about destroying Hamas and removing them from government and ideally putting so much pressure on them they surrender hostages and themselves (unlikely but still)
Groups and governments like Hamas can be destroyed even if ideologies cant, the Nazis are a great example they were removed from Germany even if the ideology lives on, sure you risk the government being replaced with one just as bad, but you need to take that risk.
It's also about intent Israel has a clear intent to avoid killing civilians by getting them to move South even sending out SMS (before phone signal and net went down and doing leaflet drops, quite literally) but end of the day its a war in a highly populated area that Hamas has turned into one big base with tunnels etc
Even the ground operation is moving very slowly if there still happened to be civilians there they have had plenty of time to move south.
Yeah sure south might not be 100% safe but its much safer than the North area where the main action is.
frog wrote:The two state solution long ago became the "safe" positive talking point for anyone asked about the future of Israel / Palestine. Most know the fishing line is in a hopeless tangle but who will say that to camera?
In reality, the two state solution is a house of cards which can have a supporting card flicked out from under it in so many ways (often violent) by those dead against it.
A core group of Israelis and Palestinians with very fixed viewpoints, will never accept it. They will do something to stuff it up.
A pessimistic but realitisic view.
The main benefit of the concept of a two state solution is that it gives both sides a talking point with a sense of hope - which is an alternative to fighting.
It allows everyone to extend and pretend in the midst of an almost unsolvable set of issues.
Advocating it is not, however, a badge of virtuous honour (like the "I am for world peace" beauty contestant speech) as it is commonly used. It is more a badge of naivity or, for those who understand the complexity, one of cynicism.
Many things in the world will sort of just muddle through as the best case scenario.
What do you see as best case scenario or any scenario for that matter?
I maybe naively think that a 2 state solution is really the only avenue with any hope of a peaceful outcome.
But for this to happen it has to be fair for both sides and enforced/ moderated by international bodies or states. This will require borders that Israel give up some of their occupied land.
Extremists on both sides need to be sidelined.
Possible? Dunno.
What are other scenarios? Force all Palestinian people off the land by forcible removal and killing them ? (That's genocide). You cannot wipe out Hamas, they will just pop up under a different name.
Or have one apartheid state with all Palestinian people suppressed. This surely would not fix security situation.
Farked if I know.
But if USA continue their blind support of Israel as they kill thousands of innocents, they have no chance of keeping their perceived position as leader of free world justice etc. Except for UK and Australia, they'll be alone on world stage.
With pricks like this maybe that is about time it happened.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/nov/01/lindsey-graham-israel-ha...
indo-dreaming wrote:Distracted wrote:As much as Israel wants and needs revenge for Hama’s actions, they still need to be accountable for their own actions. Nominating safe area for civilians then bombing those designated safe areas cannot be ‘collateral damage’ . They are war crimes.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67264703Even if Israel somehow defeat Hamas at a great cost for all sides, Hamas is still just a name. They may take the head off the Hydra but there will new groups with thousands of more martyrs who have seen their families killed that will regrow as a new version of Hamas.
Its not about revenge its about destroying Hamas and removing them from government and ideally putting so much pressure on them they surrender hostages and themselves (unlikely but still)
Groups and governments like Hamas can be destroyed even if ideologies cant, the Nazis are a great example they were removed from Germany even if the ideology lives on, sure you risk the government being replaced with one just as bad, but you need to take that risk.
It's also about intent Israel has a clear intent to avoid killing civilians by getting them to move South even sending out SMS (before phone signal and net went down and doing leaflet drops, quite literally) but end of the day its a war in a highly populated area that Hamas has turned into one big base with tunnels etc
Even the ground operation is moving very slowly if there still happened to be civilians there they have had plenty of time to move south.
Yeah sure south might not be 100% safe but its much safer than the North area where the main action is.
The Nazis were a occupying group invading other countries. Hamas are a group fighting against an occupying group.
Both groups abhorrent, but cannot compare situation.
This talk of just wiping out Hamas is a pipedream, others would just stand up.
@indo how would you feel if a lot of you friends and family had their land taken and had been killed, abused by Israeli forces? Then you receive message your house and all your possessions is about to be blown up and you need to leave?
I propose U would not be thinking how nice and careful the IDF are being giving you a heads up.
Follow z money ;)
- what if u wanna build a new canal for the control of trade and to further manipulate, maintain and reinforce your global position of supposed dominance…
- and what if the country supplying endless military assistance to enable and facilitate this power grab fully support and are part of a joint coalition to make it a reality…
- and what if the last real hurdle in realising this is the awkward and inconvenient positioning of a place called ‘gaza’…
In order to create and ensure ‘peace’ and ‘security’ there are sometimes a few ‘what ifs’ ;);)
- sometimes the what ifs are crucial pieces of z puzzle ;)
- it’s also sometimes weddy weddy important that the what ifs are disguised and hidden… intentionally masked by the absolute pursuit of upholding freedom and democracy- through force ;)
$$$
https://frontierindia.com/all-you-should-know-about-the-israeli-ben-guri...
Israel's wet dream would be to move all Palestinians to Egypt and beyond as refugees and to have a one state solution. But the push back for that is huge. Very unlikely. Even then something like 20% of Israelis are Arab - so not so safe and stable.
Some Israeli's wettest of wet dreams would be to make much of Syria and other surrounding Arab land greater Israel!
And then, many want Israel gone - totally. Always will.
Rust never sleeps on all sides.
At best a muddle through. At worst a total mess.
The US and United Nations etc. cannot fix it. Pretty much no one can.
Nothing can justify this shit.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/01/jabalia-camp-airstrike-gaza
"The Indonesian government’s stance obviously reflects the fact that the Palestinian cause resonates with powerful conservative domestic constituencies in a way that other issues involving Muslims – the plight of the Uyghurs in China’s Xinjiang region leaps to mind – do not."
https://thediplomat.com/2023/10/indonesias-jokowi-calls-for-resolution-o...
andy-mac wrote:Nothing can justify this shit.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/01/jabalia-camp-airstrike-gaza
How many Gaza refugees would you be happy for Aus to take? 10k? 20k? More?
Roadkill wrote:andy-mac wrote:Nothing can justify this shit.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/01/jabalia-camp-airstrike-gaza
How many Gaza refugees would you be happy for Aus to take? 10k? 20k? More?
Why?
What's it got to do with Australia? Besides supporting current Israeli govt.
Should we expel every Australian who also holds an Israeli passport?
I don't think so.
Seems like you are trying to create a strawman and a distraction from what is happening in Gaza.
andy-mac wrote:Roadkill wrote:andy-mac wrote:Nothing can justify this shit.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/01/jabalia-camp-airstrike-gaza
How many Gaza refugees would you be happy for Aus to take? 10k? 20k? More?
Why?
What's it got to do with Australia? Besides supporting current Israeli govt.
Should we expel every Australian who also holds an Israeli passport?
I don't think so.
Seems like you are trying to create a strawman and a distraction from what is happening in Gaza.
Just wondering if you would be happy for Aus to help out? You could potentially save innocent lives.
Why would you say expel Australians that hold dual citizenship? What does that have to do with anything discussed? Weird stuff
You prefer your support to be words and talk only? From the safety of your keyboard support is just talk.
Roadkill wrote:You prefer your support to be words and talk only? From the safety of your keyboard support is just talk.
Yeah mate, true from the safety of my keyboard in an extremely lucky country.
As you are.
Very fortunate indeed aren't we.
Maybe it is because I have seen first hand the impact of bombs like this on human beings that it triggers me.
What is it with you that just trolls bringing in Australia taking in refugees which has nothing to do with the conversation?
Well there is now calls for countries to take refugees from Gaza. Every Muslim nations has said no, so it will be the west that steps in again.
One of the primary reasons Arab states have declined to take in more Palestinian refugees is that they fear permanent displacement of Palestinians forever, and they've made that very clear. If two million refugees flee from the Israelis warplanes bombing their homelands, they will never be able to go back. That is how land is stolen, and it is one of the reasons why Israel was able to colonize so much land in the past.
Besides that, of the estimated 5 million + Palestinian refugees, most of them are either in Gaza, the West Bank, Jordan, Syria, or Lebanon (where already almost 1 in 4 people are refugees). The idea that the West is some kind of savior here is a bit of a fantasy Roadkill.
dandandan wrote:One of the primary reasons Arab states have declined to take in more Palestinian refugees is that they fear permanent displacement of Palestinians forever, and they've made that very clear. If two million refugees flee from the Israelis warplanes bombing their homelands, they will never be able to go back. That is how land is stolen, and it is one of the reasons why Israel was able to colonize so much land in the past.
Besides that, of the estimated 5 million + Palestinian refugees, most of them are either in Gaza, the West Bank, Jordan, Syria, or Lebanon (where already almost 1 in 4 people are refugees). The idea that the West is some kind of savior here is a bit of a fantasy Roadkill.
Bit more historical background.
Yeah, I know it may be just one interpretation.
https://m.
sypkan wrote:well seedy
you bore me, all you do is bag people, and post idealistic / ideological bullshit that alludes to a position, then try and walk it back when you are put on the spot... so I avoid you... it is too easy to be high and mighty, ...and elusive...
so let us have it seedy cunt...
how do you see this decolonisation dream unfolding?
you don't see a two state solution as a viable option?
lay it out...
chicken man
Chicken man?
The problem is Israeli Zionists don’t want a 2 state solution. I said way back, in simple terms, to stop this that Israeli need to stop being racist and more multicultural.
Nice to see cunt written. Almost makes you seem normal.
And “bag people”… bullsht mate.
Worth a.listen.
?si=Lyf4LjKiV5_NWqpi https://m.
https://m.
… then and now
https://m.
https://m.
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