The Israel Palestine problem solving thread
I am not religious but believe the Jews , as a people are .....underrated , a lot .
Christians and Muslims have fought before they joined the fray .
Chinese , English , American's, Russians , Vikings etc have caused more problems , even before I was born imho .
They are a powerful influence in world affairs . There are quite a few powerful players atm .
The Jewish religion has extremists , BUT , they don't fight with each other .
Of course Hamas can't be trusted @pop. No-one in this can. Now @gsco has left the building, framing Palestinian empathy might have some nuance. No-one here is anti-semitic or marxist!
Most of us have happy connections with Jewish tradition, have had Jewish friends, surfed with Israelis, or at the VERY least been exposed to loose shits-and-giggles through stooges/marx bros, sammy davis jr, woody allen, seinfeld, ross/monica geller, herschel krustofsky, sacha baren cohen, howard wolowitz, seth meyers' wife and kids, depending on your generation and bent.. equal amounts of funny in the George Carlin tradition where 'religion is bullshit'.
We all understand the plight of the Jews and have an unerring understanding of 'never again', and would never question the validity of a Jewish state, or the right to defend it (is my take).
As there is far less exposure to Palestinian culture within our western zeitgeist, showing empathy for our fellow humans in the Arab world is a basic part of being humanist rather than xenophobic. Despite the fact there are mad radicals that need proportionate control exercised upon them, for the sake of the people affected by them, and Iran will always be a problem, we don't generalise when it comes to people, or have a cavalier attitude to death and casualties on any side. Or turn a blind eye to grander motivations for engaging a colonial war cash machine.
The whole thing is gross. The best anyone can hope for is 'proportionate', which is tragically unfortunate and also gross.
Below: 'why we think things in our lifetime are going downhill', from them lefties at harvard ; )
- though based on empirical aggregating, then open-handed opinion -
https://shows.acast.com/62538867ad55de001281af36/episodes/adam-mastroian...
(also explains why people think music has gone downhill since their teens)
...and the surf was better back then too.
Great post, BS.
A great piece 6 , for an old bloke like me to read .
Unfortunately , there is a problem .
We have to hope the IDF DOESN'T do a "proportionate" response .
Israel has more to lose than Hamas .
That gives me hope .
I will read the article , as I like U .
Had a quick listen . As I said I like U , and got through the adds , After pay and stuff , and listened .
I think the world of humans is much better today than ever before , so stopped listening quite quickly .
Seeing my two daughters and world poverty rates ( I worry mainly about the have nots ) helps with this a lot .
My pop ups are not better , any hints 6 ?
Please don't use the word burpee !
Strange , but if it's big ( and I get the chance ) my pop up will be good due to adrenaline from fear , I expect .
Lol - it was much better in the 70's , as was my surfing , BS .
There is someone ELSE involved who , the smartest , most connected person I know , doesn't know , yet .
If I think I know it's the Iranian's , I know I am wrong .
The two wars are connected , imo .
haha, but the surf WAS better back then stu ; )
.. @pop ?
At a bigger picture level, Alexander Mercouris makes the point that huge military build ups are occurring by the US in the Middle East, right now, are at a scale and type that is beyond just deterrent posturing.
Such moves are not cobbled together on the run. The logistics are too complex. They are a previously developed Pentagon plan(s) (they have a plan for many scenarious) that can be dusted off when certain circumstances justify.
What the plan and purpose is, we don't know, but the rhetoric around Iran is building: Article in The Daily Telegraph "Is Iran flirting with its own destruction?" So is the action: ZH: "US Warplanes Conduct Major Strikes On 'Iranian Proxies' In Syria".
Never waste a crisis? Or have they just dusted off a plan that happens to be heavy on deployment and hardware simply because it was the closest fit to the scenario?
For clues, watch the narrative as it develops in the main stream media. Are the authorative opinion pieces focussed
mostly on Israel / Gaza / Hamas, as one would expect, or does it build more around painting Iran as the real bad guys?
Great post above @basesix.
Gonna prod the elephant here and ask a question.
If an outlaw bikie gang becomes outlawed due to violence and criminal activities etc within it's organisation,...
Then at what point does the same apply to a religion??(if these same things are happening within it's organisation).
If there's no other way to stop religious extremists.....
@basesix, that post has gone well into the excellent range. Well said.
as in Islam @southern? The great freedom in being a Muslim is that there is no globally central governance, so you don't have an irrelevant-bloated-Vatican-real-estate-monolith-no-condom-tax-free-machine (for example), telling you what you can and can't do from the other side of the world. The downside in this is that in Islam, there's weirdos that can just make shit up locally. The mini-debate between friends in the Gaza Surf Club movie about what girls should or shouldn't be taught or allowed do is a good window into it. The Qur'an is as Good a book as any, just can be used well, or nastily, like any Good book.
Meaning in any and all religions @basesix.
Should add a caveat, i have little to no time for religion. Don't give a shit what people believe though.
Felt sorry for the Iranian chicks running around in Hijabs last night against the Matildas. Not because it is their own religious choice.
More because they were probably under strict protocol and under very watchful eyes of the patriarchal paternalism of their homeland....don't dare let that hijab slip off during a concussion or headbutt lest you be punished on your return home. It's all a bit ridiculous to be honest.
It helps, @southern, to think of Victorian England, and (if we are in fact progressing) everyone will get there..
(my caveat, same as yours, freedom in free-thinking, and working your shit out yourself, day to day)
frog wrote:At a bigger picture level, Alexander Mercouris makes the point that huge military build ups are occurring by the US in the Middle East, right now, are at a scale and type that is beyond just deterrent posturing.
Such moves are not cobbled together on the run. The logistics are too complex. They are a previously developed Pentagon plan(s) (they have a plan for many scenarious) that can be dusted off when certain circumstances justify.
What the plan and purpose is, we don't know, but the rhetoric around Iran is building: Article in The Daily Telegraph "Is Iran flirting with its own destruction?" So is the action: ZH: "US Warplanes Conduct Major Strikes On 'Iranian Proxies' In Syria".
Never waste a crisis? Or have they just dusted off a plan that happens to be heavy on deployment and hardware simply because it was the closest fit to the scenario?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbcK2Bds2Lg
For clues, watch the narrative as it develops in the main stream media. Are the authorative opinion pieces focussed
mostly on Israel / Gaza / Hamas, as one would expect, or does it build more around painting Iran as the real bad guys?
@frog
Don't have time ATM to watch clip.
Are you thinking that there are major war plans being put in place?
Hamas Israel an excuse to try for regime change in Iran? Last ME intervention went well.
Geez as for post above, I actually believe we are getting better as humans on an individual level, but not so sure in regards to our political leaders!
Btw the music was better back in the day!! Surf definitely less crowded also... :)
Howsabout a friday night Arabic singalong?
haha sick one @stunet.
I particularly like this one, and the way it builds to a fantastic crescendo.
Sing along now! :-D
SR - If any gang approves of illegal activities by any member , the whole gang becomes Outlaws , I would think .
B6 - apparently some of the religious leaders of Iran are very wealthy .
Mecca would cost a bit to host .
An Arab tradition , I think , for the rich to help pay and protect the route for the Haj of the poor .
Very cool imo .
I'm yet to see religion achieve anything that a bit of common sense and a good moral compass couldn't also achieve @popdown.
Speculation, here-say and blind faith to achieve what should be pretty simple, innate human traits.
Anyway, there's a separate thread for that. But if religion is at the root of the problem, my question is, how do you fix that part of the problem?
And that might be a rhetorical question....well it has been for at least a couple of thousand years.
SR , if we look back in time , even the 10 commandments were a new idea .
I think any society that follows those 10 rules will be happier as a result .
Should reduce arguments .
( I will check them )
At most religions heart , there is a sense of what is right and wrong , I think .
Different times and different paces have a different definition of human traits .
It made Kings and Queens abide by , at least some , rules , if they believed in religion .
In some places , rulers were the gods .
I know Trump thinks he is a god but that is okay .
Always has , so we know what we get .
lol I think that message is much better but , perhaps , has too much cu....t through ?
Sorry but can't help it .
One Man's C#nt is another Man's ............?
My answer is c..t .
I do agree with that @popdown.
Just not sure religion is a necessary tool to reach what should be commonsense.
As Jim Jefferies so eloquently put it, take away the 10 commandments, and turn it into one, short sentence.
Dont be a c#nt. Simple really!
It's a valid question, @southern, and you and I have been on the same page in this regard, in other threads. William Golding/Lord of the Flies - without dictated moral guidelines, would we descend to unruly, self-serving beasts? Or is there an innate sense of what should be, within all humans, supported by story and fable? And is organised religion, as God-appointed moral dictator to the would-be-beasts, itself a WORSE unruly, self-serving beast? Ironically, religious people often quote religious texts at this point.. but you're right. 'nother thread. Applies to government too, in our society ; )
Currently 10:30am for the people of Israel/Palestine
;);)
https://m.
&pp=ygUPTXVzbGltIG1vc2ggcGl0https://m.
Roadkill wrote:I do think Israel should offer a cease fire, and take a step back. Have a cease fire and allow in aid, food and medical supplies and the evacuation of injured for medical treatment and expect in return the handover of all hostages and the return of bodies of hostages killed so far.
Put it back onto Hamas. Give the offer with an understanding that Hamas does the right thing all whilst retaining the rights to retaliate against any Hamas aggression or breaking of the cease fire.
Who knows what deals that have been put forward behind closed doors but putting an offer like that out there publicly would just see criticism towards Israel because many people would say they are using these things as bargaining chips when should be provided anyway (which btw can all come in through Egypt anyway)
Hamas are never going to give up ALL the hostages unless they get something substantial in return like something unrealistic and ridiculous, the prisoners are powerful bargaining chips, once they give them up they lose power
Plus they dont care less about the actual Palestine people the Palestine people suffering and dying is good for their cause, its part of what they want, without it they diont get support from the West or people hating on Israel, although that said they might release half a dozen for aid or whatever just to play on the peoples perception in the West, like oh look they are reasonable people.
My predication is they will release a trickle of kids and elderly prisoners as we have seen again this plays on the perception they have a heart, they dont its strategic and they are high maintenance high risk prisoners medical conditions etc, dead they are worth nothing.
The only thing working in the prisoners favour is they are only worth something when alive and nothing when, hence why feed etc
A more realistic scenario longer term is
The women that are of age from 16 to 40 will end up basically sex slaves. but kept alive and relatively healthy
The Israel soldiers will be tortured but kept alive as have value.
The rest will be kept in half reasonable condition only because they hold value.
Any swellnetters ever get into this guy?
Smoked many a doobie in my early 20’s chilling out to his tracks.
Haven’t thought about him for about 10 years until I saw some of the YouTube clips on here
Thanks Jelly
So interesting !
I am no Jagger but both religions need a few dancing lessons imho .
Both dance , almost , exactly the same way , nearly !
They are neighbours , I should remember .
The rock concert reminded me of Queen at Wembley .
They both love going around in circles , it looks to me .
It must be a powerful personal experience , to join the Circle in Mecca .
As I am not religious , I might pop down , before I make an Oxymoron of myself , again .
SR
Please drive home listening to some nice music !
Any surf is better than it looks imho !
Cheers @basesix.
Just driving to the beach, and thinking, is religion just an easy copout for a deeper cause. Resistance against a perceived or real opprrssor, and unite with the common 'believers' of your same struggles, that in this case being a largely muslim population.
Is evil already present and will always find another way to represent itself, or was the evil moulded from fundamental beliefs and dogma.
I tend to think the latter.
Yeah also, checked that cam burleigh posted live from gaza. Within 2 minutes there were gunshots and very close. Also an explosion. Sobering.
Btw surfs shit. But grateful
yeh, I checked out that burleigh camera when it was dark there, forlorn rooster cries in the night... surf's shit here too, but tuesday looks good, if the wind plays ball. Got the 8' foamy out still?
Haha yes indeed sir. The fountain of youth, is ye 8ft foamy. Only way to stay surf fit through the summer months
frog wrote:Are you thinking that there are major war plans being put in place?
Hamas Israel an excuse to try for regime change in Iran? Last ME intervention went well.]andy-mac, have not really looked into it much but:
There is form for meddling.
Iran's Central Bank is one of only a few not controlled by the cartel - a BIG deal
Been in the crosshairs since forever... (axis of evil)
Lots of oil.
ME centre of power and influence not aligned to US
Helping Russia embarrass US/NATO
Lindsay Graham frothing to heroically lead the US into another war and test the limits of nuclear war risks from the safety of his office.
Distraction from Ukraine/NATO lack of success in making Russia weak or collapse
Israel sees Iran as their biggest foe / rival and source of many of their troubles.Phew quite a list of motivators.... Means, motive and opportunity is there.
At the moment, from what Alexander said, it is just scattered tea leaves showing a vaguely familiar pattern. We will know very soon either through the rhetoric ramping up or open conflict with Iran and / or any of its proxies.
Iran has lots of teeth and claws.
US is over extended at the moment but hubris is built into its DNA - so logic, sound strategy and commonsence is not a given.
… and taiwan
-aaaand thennnn ;)
frog]
andy-mac wrote:[quote=frogwrote:Are you thinking that there are major war plans being put in place?
Hamas Israel an excuse to try for regime change in Iran? Last ME intervention went well.]andy-mac, have not really looked into it much but:
There is form for meddling.
Iran's Central Bank is one of only a few not controlled by the cartel - a BIG deal
Been in the crosshairs since forever... (axis of evil)
Lots of oil.
ME centre of power and influence not aligned to US
Helping Russia embarrass US/NATO
Lindsay Graham frothing to heroically lead the US into another war and test the limits of nuclear war risks from the safety of his office.
Distraction from Ukraine/NATO lack of success in making Russia weak or collapse
Israel sees Iran as their biggest foe / rival and source of many of their troubles.Phew quite a list of motivators.... Means, motive and opportunity is there.
At the moment, from what Alexander said, it is just scattered tea leaves showing a vaguely familiar pattern. We will know very soon either through the rhetoric ramping up or open conflict with Iran and / or any of its proxies.
Iran has lots of teeth and claws.
US is over extended at the moment but hubris is built into its DNA - so logic, sound strategy and commonsence is not a given.
Thanks for reply. Geez, yep we are living in interesting times. Interesting 6 months before us.
Good points frog .
Plus the US has an election and is divided and leaderless atm ( someone is leading but we don't know who ),
Maybe , the perfect time to do this chaos ?
Trumpy might win .
I reckon , Hamas and Iran , are more afraid of him than Biden .
Guessing the main trouble maker is involved in both conflicts ( also a possible third ) and is , probably , a name on your list .
There are a very few others who have a skin in the game .
Please try and connect the dots for me . My short( term ) vision is stuffed .
A war in China , OMG .
Don't forget the election is Nov . That could could , almost , meet my definition as a War .
As we can all see the stakes could not be higher as what is being risked is WW3 '
Who has so much to lose , that they would do this ?
Hopefully with their property market causing problems the Chinese don't dare atm .
A few years old… but interesting viewing…
- tough place to grow up
https://m.
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Gazan records himself CELEBRATING attacks on Israel and then CRYING when they retaliate. pic.twitter.com/1esa0m26J0
— Avi Yemini (@OzraeliAvi) October 22, 2023
dude's have gotta get better at social media...
Pallywood is running out of actors they keep using the same dude for every scene.
— Avi Yemini (@OzraeliAvi) October 26, 2023
I’m glad he’s feeling better from yesterday's “hospitalisation”.
https://t.co/3QVvzuSYRw
(
Pro-Hamas protestor demands that you boycott Nike for doing business in Israel, while wearing Nike Air Forces herself. pic.twitter.com/DKdFrfFxuS
— Imam of Peace (@Imamofpeace) October 26, 2023
Pretty much sums things up in a fairly balanced manner.
indo-dreaming wrote:Pretty much sums things up in a fairly balanced manner.
Easy for him to say war is necessary Indo standing in his lounge room in the States.
Wonder what his tune would be if he’d seen 3/4 of his family blown to pieces the last couple of weeks.
Must be very hard , for anyone , to have a balanced view , on anything , with so much proverbial "Skin in the Game " .
An indépendant person , fully informed , in a lounge room on the North Pole , would be someone I would listen 2 !
indo-dreaming wrote:Roadkill wrote:I do think Israel should offer a cease fire, and take a step back. Have a cease fire and allow in aid, food and medical supplies and the evacuation of injured for medical treatment and expect in return the handover of all hostages and the return of bodies of hostages killed so far.
Put it back onto Hamas. Give the offer with an understanding that Hamas does the right thing all whilst retaining the rights to retaliate against any Hamas aggression or breaking of the cease fire.
Who knows what deals that have been put forward behind closed doors but putting an offer like that out there publicly would just see criticism towards Israel because many people would say they are using these things as bargaining chips when should be provided anyway (which btw can all come in through Egypt anyway)
Hamas are never going to give up ALL the hostages unless they get something substantial in return like something unrealistic and ridiculous, the prisoners are powerful bargaining chips, once they give them up they lose power
Plus they dont care less about the actual Palestine people the Palestine people suffering and dying is good for their cause, its part of what they want, without it they diont get support from the West or people hating on Israel, although that said they might release half a dozen for aid or whatever just to play on the peoples perception in the West, like oh look they are reasonable people.
My predication is they will release a trickle of kids and elderly prisoners as we have seen again this plays on the perception they have a heart, they dont its strategic and they are high maintenance high risk prisoners medical conditions etc, dead they are worth nothing.
The only thing working in the prisoners favour is they are only worth something when alive and nothing when, hence why feed etc
A more realistic scenario longer term is
The women that are of age from 16 to 40 will end up basically sex slaves. but kept alive and relatively healthy
The Israel soldiers will be tortured but kept alive as have value.
The rest will be kept in half reasonable condition only because they hold value.
A cease fire wouldn’t last 24 hours as Hamas would lob a few rockets over. And I know Hamas would not give up Israeli hostages, they may give up a few other foreign nationals just for the media and to be seen to do something. It would put the pressure on Hamas and when they break a cease fire public opinion would be less aggressive to Israel.
Hamas doesn’t want peace and don’t really want Israel to stop attacking. They have zero respect for life…to be Martyred is something they want.
andy-mac wrote:Roadkill wrote:I do think Israel should offer a cease fire, and take a step back. Have a cease fire and allow in aid, food and medical supplies and the evacuation of injured for medical treatment and expect in return the handover of all hostages and the return of bodies of hostages killed so far.
Put it back onto Hamas. Give the offer with an understanding that Hamas does the right thing all whilst retaining the rights to retaliate against any Hamas aggression or breaking of the cease fire.
Agree....
I think most people can agree with this
and the little to and fro above
the problem is, hamas have gone 'all in'
they know exactly what they have initiated...
they'll play the good will of the internatioal comunity all they can
but at the end of the day, they are playing iran's game. which really is not getting enough attention... for many reasons...
whether hamas have gone 'all in' because;
a) they think they have nothing to lose
b) revenge and retribution runs deep
c) they believe, they are doing god's work... and hence, that even their sacrificial lamb human shields will go to heaven...
d) they believe the US is weak / too busy, and over stretched, and now is the time for major world realignment (clearly a motivation for iran - with the backiing of russia and china)
e) all of the above - which it clearly is...
hamas will not back down now
they have played their hand, and shown how they wish / think / want / believe the dominos to fall...
the only thing that will truly change this trajectory now, is gazan people choosing sanity over hamas... how the hell that happens, or is facilitated, is the hard part...
the trajectory is set, good will may delay and abate it, but hamas have made their choice
very very unfortunate for the palestinian people
seems they will lose no matter what
again...
we might even get some new overlords too...
the way things are going
and the stupidity of all involved...
iran...
needs much more discussion...
the how's and why's... the how the fuck it got to this...
the who's...
Syp- Can I choose all four options ?
I disagree that the Palestinian will lose with Hamas out of Gaza .
It can , and will be , built back better and much more fucken stable , without the tunnels .
It could become some UN something , although no one in the UN agrees on anything , as usual :( !.
Why can't the UN organise the biggest refugee camp in Israel and move ALL the civilians out of Gasa ?
Then the Israeli's can close the trap by destroying the tunnels that connect Egypt .
Then , it's the end of Hamas , in Gasa !
Just by turning the lights on in Gasa , the IDF are giving Hamas the power to fire their missiles .
My reading says that Israel has done incredibly well over the last 20 years .
People are very surprised , if revisiting , at the remarkable progress they have made .
Not unexpectedly , everyone in Israel benefits !
Some Palestinians ( not all are in the Gasa ) were also doing much better , as a result of osmosis and that they are Israeli to ..
The Gasa will become part of Israel again when Hamas is destroyed .
Then the Israeli's will deal with the boarder with Egypt imo .
sypkan wrote:andy-mac wrote:Roadkill wrote:I do think Israel should offer a cease fire, and take a step back. Have a cease fire and allow in aid, food and medical supplies and the evacuation of injured for medical treatment and expect in return the handover of all hostages and the return of bodies of hostages killed so far.
Put it back onto Hamas. Give the offer with an understanding that Hamas does the right thing all whilst retaining the rights to retaliate against any Hamas aggression or breaking of the cease fire.
Agree....
I think most people can agree with this
and the little to and fro above
the problem is, hamas have gone 'all in'
they know exactly what they have initiated...
they'll play the good will of the internatioal comunity all they can
but at the end of the day, they are playing iran's game. which really is not getting enough attention... for many reasons...
whether hamas have gone 'all in' because;
a) they think they have nothing to lose
b) revenge and retribution runs deep
c) they believe, they are doing god's work... and hence, that even their sacrificial lamb human shields will go to heaven...
d) they believe the US is weak / too busy, and over stretched, and now is the time for major world realignment (clearly a motivation for iran - with the backiing of russia and china)
e) all of the above - which it clearly is...
hamas will not back down now
they have played their hand, and shown how they wish / think / want / believe the dominos to fall...
the only thing that will truly change this trajectory now, is gazan people choosing sanity over hamas... how the hell that happens, or is facilitated, is the hard part...
the trajectory is set, good will may delay and abate it, but hamas have made their choice
very very unfortunate for the palestinian people
seems they will lose no matter what
again...
I agree.
So, what is happening (in this latest back and forth) is more of the fault of Hamas? Would that be a valid proposition? If yes, does the current responsibility for military action lie with Hamas? Is the continued anger at Israel misguided? Is the call for a ceasefire to stop civilian deaths in Gaza 100% valid? Being that Hamas doesn’t want peace is it naive to demand Israel cease what they are dong?
Remember Hamas was elected by the Palestinians in Gaza..so support is strong and I can’t find anything that the Palestinians have wanted to get rid Hamas.
“very very unfortunate for the palestinian people” This is the saddest part of the whole shit show. They are simply collateral damage from both sides. However, many of them must hold some responsibility as they elected Hamas and give support.
Roadkill wrote:sypkan wrote:andy-mac wrote:Roadkill wrote:I do think Israel should offer a cease fire, and take a step back. Have a cease fire and allow in aid, food and medical supplies and the evacuation of injured for medical treatment and expect in return the handover of all hostages and the return of bodies of hostages killed so far.
Put it back onto Hamas. Give the offer with an understanding that Hamas does the right thing all whilst retaining the rights to retaliate against any Hamas aggression or breaking of the cease fire.
Agree....
I think most people can agree with this
and the little to and fro above
the problem is, hamas have gone 'all in'
they know exactly what they have initiated...
they'll play the good will of the internatioal comunity all they can
but at the end of the day, they are playing iran's game. which really is not getting enough attention... for many reasons...
whether hamas have gone 'all in' because;
a) they think they have nothing to lose
b) revenge and retribution runs deep
c) they believe, they are doing god's work... and hence, that even their sacrificial lamb human shields will go to heaven...
d) they believe the US is weak / too busy, and over stretched, and now is the time for major world realignment (clearly a motivation for iran - with the backiing of russia and china)
e) all of the above - which it clearly is...
hamas will not back down now
they have played their hand, and shown how they wish / think / want / believe the dominos to fall...
the only thing that will truly change this trajectory now, is gazan people choosing sanity over hamas... how the hell that happens, or is facilitated, is the hard part...
the trajectory is set, good will may delay and abate it, but hamas have made their choice
very very unfortunate for the palestinian people
seems they will lose no matter what
again...
I agree.
So, what is happening (in this latest back and forth) is more of the fault of Hamas? Would that be a valid proposition? If yes, does the current responsibility for military action lie with Hamas? Is the continued anger at Israel misguided? Is the call for a ceasefire to stop civilian deaths in Gaza 100% valid? Being that Hamas doesn’t want peace is it naive to demand Israel cease what they are dong?
Remember Hamas was elected by the Palestinians in Gaza..so support is strong and I can’t find anything that the Palestinians have wanted to get rid Hamas.
“very very unfortunate for the palestinian people” This is the saddest part of the whole shit show. They are simply collateral damage from both sides. However, many of them must hold some responsibility as they elected Hamas and give support.
To be fair its probably hard to gauge how the majority of Palestine people feel about Hamas, yeah sure they elected them in 2005 but there has been no elections since and thats a long time.
And its fair to expect its not like Australia where you can publicly and vocally oppose a government, you would expect over there any movement or real criticism against Hamas could see your life put at risk.
Yes .
They have to go from Gasa .
What anger ?
Valid def ? No .
Very !
imho
There are probably , I don't know , more Palestinians , in Israel , that have never had to vote for Hamas .
I wonder what they really think ?
By the Rules of War , Israel has a right , almost an obligation , to respond .
They HAVE to do it .
For some reason , Hamas are a live Pawn in a terrible Chess game .
Someone decided they needed to sacrifice a pawn to win a game .
yes
yes
yes
yes and no
yes... atm...
they really could try a more precision strategy...
'elected' ...a long time ago...
the only hope is for an overthrow of power...
ain't gonna happen when israel is bombing the fuck out of em... all of em...
'...the enemy of my enemy and all that...'
the only 'sane' action I can see, is israel slowing things right down... right right down...
if they must 'invade' / incursion... do it very very slowly from the north, create 'safe' zones, give the palestiniam people options... to evacuate south... or, turn their backs on hamas, and choose the 'security' of israeli overlords...
pretty simplistic, and I'm clearly no military strategist... but you need to give people options...
none of this could possibly happen without an arab country mediator
israel are too impatient, bombing the fuck out of the place reeks of revenge and retribution too... that never works out... and, as many have pointed out, it will only amass and consilidate ill will... under yet another name...
a wise war person once said... 'another day of talking, is another day without war' ...and that's a good thing!
israel has more than made their point...
enough
for now...
indo-dreaming wrote:Roadkill wrote:sypkan wrote:andy-mac wrote:Roadkill wrote:I do think Israel should offer a cease fire, and take a step back. Have a cease fire and allow in aid, food and medical supplies and the evacuation of injured for medical treatment and expect in return the handover of all hostages and the return of bodies of hostages killed so far.
Put it back onto Hamas. Give the offer with an understanding that Hamas does the right thing all whilst retaining the rights to retaliate against any Hamas aggression or breaking of the cease fire.
Agree....
I think most people can agree with this
and the little to and fro above
the problem is, hamas have gone 'all in'
they know exactly what they have initiated...
they'll play the good will of the internatioal comunity all they can
but at the end of the day, they are playing iran's game. which really is not getting enough attention... for many reasons...
whether hamas have gone 'all in' because;
a) they think they have nothing to lose
b) revenge and retribution runs deep
c) they believe, they are doing god's work... and hence, that even their sacrificial lamb human shields will go to heaven...
d) they believe the US is weak / too busy, and over stretched, and now is the time for major world realignment (clearly a motivation for iran - with the backiing of russia and china)
e) all of the above - which it clearly is...
hamas will not back down now
they have played their hand, and shown how they wish / think / want / believe the dominos to fall...
the only thing that will truly change this trajectory now, is gazan people choosing sanity over hamas... how the hell that happens, or is facilitated, is the hard part...
the trajectory is set, good will may delay and abate it, but hamas have made their choice
very very unfortunate for the palestinian people
seems they will lose no matter what
again...
I agree.
So, what is happening (in this latest back and forth) is more of the fault of Hamas? Would that be a valid proposition? If yes, does the current responsibility for military action lie with Hamas? Is the continued anger at Israel misguided? Is the call for a ceasefire to stop civilian deaths in Gaza 100% valid? Being that Hamas doesn’t want peace is it naive to demand Israel cease what they are dong?
Remember Hamas was elected by the Palestinians in Gaza..so support is strong and I can’t find anything that the Palestinians have wanted to get rid Hamas.
“very very unfortunate for the palestinian people” This is the saddest part of the whole shit show. They are simply collateral damage from both sides. However, many of them must hold some responsibility as they elected Hamas and give support.
To be fair its probably hard to gauge how the majority of Palestine people feel about Hamas, yeah sure they elected them in 2005 but there has been no elections since and thats a long time.
And its fair to expect its not like Australia where you can publicly and vocally oppose a government, you would expect over there any movement or real criticism against Hamas could see your life put at risk.
I have no doubt voicing opinion and criticising Hamas in Gaza probably gets a bullet in the back of the head. Displacing Hamas can only happen from inside Gaza and from Palestinians.
However, I do see Palestinian support around the world having real criticism for Israel only. Support for Palestinians and Gaza seems to include support for Hamas. No one says it out loud but nearly all seem to offer unspoken support…I come to this conclusion as I see very little real criticism.
"...However, I do see Palestinian support around the world having real criticism for Israel only. Support for Palestinians and Gaza seems to include support for Hamas. No one says it out loud but nearly all seem to offer unspoken support…I come to this conclusion as I see very little real criticism..."
well, the blm crowd and friends said the quiet part out loud...
and, hamas flags at protests...
and yes, the desperate 'distancing' of some, is rather transparent...
which brings us to iran etc. above... farkn turkeys voting for christmas...
the ignorance... or cognitive dissonance... of some is astounding...
(but some have also been clearly spoiling for the facilitation of their (preferred) chinese overlords for quite some time...)
good for them...
perspectives and choices...
fucking turkeys!
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