The Israel Palestine problem solving thread
I'm not TBB but I think you're addressing me.
A. Hamas are a pack of "terrorist" arseholes who committed a grievous atrocity. So yeah , basically war criminals.
B. Buggered if I know what the IDF should do, but putting so many civilians in the firing line of their current objective seems way too over the top for me.
Apologies tube
Perhaps we agree it's a new war crime .
The IDF didn't put the civilians in the firing line , that is where Hamas hide , always .
The IDF objective is to protect Israel .
They can't do nothing .
If that gunman hide anywhere in Australia eg Toorak , Australians would want him found and killed and level what U have to , to do it quickly ..
We can rebuilt it back better .
If the gunman had hostages , I would wait until I could kill him . Hard if he is in a tunnel .
adam12 wrote:@gsco. The Spectator and the Center for Independent Studies are not credible independent sources.
Criticising Israel for war crimes is not antisemitism.
The "center right" of Australian politics and discourse right now is the ALP, not your lot who are radical right wing reactionaries masquerading as conservatives.
You appear brainwashed by right wing propagandists.
Broaden your outlook and sources,.. or don't, I don't really care. But I would like to think you aren't just a more articulate version of the dullard Indo.
People here have been quoting figures like death tolls etc from Hamas controlled organisations Hamas are a terrorist group that has been compared to ISIS, you really cant get a worse source, yet you dont call these people out?
On the last page is a video from Al jazeera It has financial backing from the government of Qatar, its pretty much a pro islamic pro Arab middle east propaganda channel, its to Arab Muslims what Sky News is to Conservatives, it just tells each group what they want to hear.
Your idea that everyone that doesnt think like you is far right is ridiculous, this environment is very left leaning but its not a reflection of the real world or broader Australian community, in the real world you guys are often in the minority with your viewpoints.
A perfect example is the voice if you had judged views here over the last 6 months you would have thought it would pass with flying colours.
But the reality is as we know it didnt, the polls were spot with what they predicated so if we assume they were also correct with what way are groups voted and you are over 40 and voted yes you were in a clear minority and sat alongside only 27% of the population in that age group (and if you break it down to sexes, id expect that percentage for males would be even lower)
Its the same deal on this issue your views aligns with the Greens even Labor and Albo support Israel as does Biden.
So you can call us far right or whatever but the reality is if anyone is on the fringe in their views its people like you.
Great , two antagonists going head to head .
My name won't be up on the main page for long , I hope .
Our Defence force were , rightly , cautious , due to hostages .
When hostages were harmed , they had to act .
Tragically , some hostages died , to free the rest .
It was a risk the ADF were prepared to take .
Australians agreed !
Hamas has millions of hostages .
How many will Israel watch die , on CNN , before they act ?
In the interests of mental health. Normally I listen to podcasts at work. Been listening to a lot of Glen Greenwood and Russel Brand, bit of Jimmy Dore.
Today I listened to music all day. I’m heaps happier and I reckon more productive. Even danced a bit.
Turn it off for a little bit….turn it up! yew!
soggydog wrote:In the interests of mental health. Normally I listen to podcasts at work. Been listening to a lot of Glen Greenwood and Russel Brand, bit of Jimmy Dore.
Today I listened to music all day. I’m heaps happier and I reckon more productive. Even danced a bit.
Turn it off for a little bit….turn it up! yew!
I do agree on. that, ive been binging big time on this issue on podcast at work and then Yotube sucking in as much info in as i can, but its draining its not good for your mental health, especially then coming here and arguing about it.
One of the ones i listened too today was this, interesting in it was broken into two view points one Pro Israel, one Pro Palestine both free to say exactly what they want which was interesting on how different a take on history and events can differ.
Dont worry Mikahalia barely says a word after her intro
kudos to her, and to you @indo. something as complicated as this can't be reduced to taking a side.. presenting in this way is the only way that makes any sense at all. Imagine Norm G's words in terms of a 20year entrapped, Tokyo-density, 50% unemployed, 50% children, Phillip Island. It is all just chilling and unimaginable.
tube - U say are Hamas Terrorists .
I disagree - They were terrorists .
We agree it was a War Crime .
They invaded Israel like an Army , Navy ( bunch of rubber ducky's a Carrier can look after ) and Airforce ( drones and para gliders - see Carrier ( there are 2 ) ) .
Israel have , now , a Foreign Army in their country .
They will deal with that problem .
The Israels know they have caged a tiger in a box that is willing to fight to the death .
So extremely dangerous .
They know the feeling well I am guessing .
Might feel the same with dander on ALL sides .
I sometimes wonder if the Arab world realise how much fight is in the Israeli caged Tiger with Nuclear teeth ?
Just reading about Russia calling for a ceasefire in Gaza to allow more humanitarian aid in.
The irony is strong in that.
You'll have to forgive me pop but I'm not getting sucked into the political vortex of this whole mess.
I'm not a fence sitter, I'm just way out of my depth on this issue.
I don't have to pick a team and I don't have to 'support' any side.
My only issue is with the heartbreaking civilian carnage we've seen from both sides, oh and using God or Allah to justify any of it.
tube ( I hope U are getting them )
Nothing to forgive :)
Not vortex sucking , I hope !
Saladin and the King Richard fought in this same area before I was born .
Two , as history seems to agree , wise strong leaders .
Both became Legends ..
Even those two , evenly matched imho , Lions , had to stop fighting , eventually .
I have NFI who Israel are fighting , yet , other than Hamas .
We know Mossad got a big wake up call so they will , probably , know .
I feel exactly the same .
It's heartbreaking !
Why you will never get peace.
Lets humanise this with something we can all relate to. SURFING
&t=102s ;)
https://m.
basesix wrote:kudos to her, and to you @indo. something as complicated as this can't be reduced to taking a side.. presenting in this way is the only way that makes any sense at all. Imagine Norm G's words in terms of a 20year entrapped, Tokyo-density, 50% unemployed, 50% children, Phillip Island. It is all just chilling and unimaginable.
Glad you were opened minded enough to listen or watch
I dont think its really that simple though, Gaza's main problem since 2005 has really been their government, its motivation isn't to govern its people and create a better country but more interested in fighting with its neighbour and getting rid of its neighbour, and people always fail to mention Gaza also has a border with Egypt.
Small states/countries can be successful Singapore is a great example of this its population density is 8K per km compared to 6k per km in Gaza
I tried to listen with as least bias as possible to the second guy which is always hard, but i think he really lost credibility towards the end which then made me question everything else he had said, Just trying to justify 7th Oct and denying the human shield element is crazy its impossible to deny, he also seemed to imply Israel dividing North and South was to occupy the north long term, i dont think many really question's Israel's motives on this division, but i can now see how easily it would be now for Hamas to convince people not to move, many might believe this is the motive
Mikala is a really poor interviewer though she didn't question or push aspects in both interviews and should have tried to gain a much better understanding before going in so she could do this, there is so many aspects with both where she could have questioned and pushed them harder and ensure when she asked a question it was not dodged.
Obviously i agree with the first guy and i thought he presented things much clearer and easier to understand.
But i can accept that maybe both views are the extremes of each argument/view and maybe the truth is somewhere in between.
I do think this style of showing both sides of an argument is really good though it gets people to exposed to views they might not other wise listen too, i think a whole Youtube channel or Podcast like this would work really well. (maybe there is one but i havent come a across a proper one)
Also i think it would have been great if each side could have a section at the end thats seperate where they get to reply to the others points, and say wait a minute that aspect is total not true and this is why...etc
burleigh wrote:Lets humanise this with something we can all relate to. SURFING
Nice post.... Geez imagine living in lock down most if your life. Horrible.
Fark we are lucky to live in Australia.
Shedding more light on the background…
https://m.
good post @burleigh, hard dvd to get hold of,
(ebay $100p&h, 1 left on amazon, dodgy looking pakistan company... and ideas anyone?)
https://tubitv.com/movies/507673/god-went-surfing-with-the-devil
(here's an earlier doco you can watch for free)
basesix wrote:good post @burleigh, hard dvd to get hold of,
(ebay $100p&h, 1 left on amazon, dodgy looking pakistan company... and ideas anyone?)
https://tubitv.com/movies/507673/god-went-surfing-with-the-devil
(here's an earlier doco you can watch for free)
Just had a quick look and you can rent it on Vimeo for $4.99
Gaza Surf Club from MAGNETFILM on Vimeo.
;);)
https://m.
&pp=ygUMU3VyZmluZyBnYXph Thanks fellers, two movies to watch with my kids.
I reckon we can all agree that surfing can fit under the banner of…
- problem solving ;)
https://m.
This video makes total sense, maybe Its a good sign they are taking so long to go in.
glad to see the penny is dropping, @indo.
In preparation for the next stages of combat, the IDF operated in northern Gaza.
— Israel Defense Forces (@IDF) October 26, 2023
IDF tanks & infantry struck numerous terrorist cells, infrastructure and anti-tank missile launch posts.
The soldiers have since exited the area and returned to Israeli territory. pic.twitter.com/oMdSDR84rU
udo wrote:
Your mate Udo
seeds wrote:
Adam12 or was it andy macs? old acquaintance makes a couple of appearances in this. Seems rather an odious character.
seeds wrote:seeds wrote:Adam12 or was it andy macs? old acquaintance makes a couple of appearances in this. Seems rather an odious character.
Hey Seeds,
Yeah I had the displeasure of working with Daniel back in 95 on the Goldie.
He had moved up from Melbourne to run hotel restaurant.
Horrible person back then and can see he hasn't improved.
Geez that video is to the point.
Great interview Udo.
;)
https://m.
The Machiavellian machinations of Middle East politics
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/26/hamas-delegation-travels-t...
basesix wrote:glad to see the penny is dropping, @indo.
Ive always wondered hell the hell they can get rid of Hamas i just expected not having the military knowledge there was answers i couldnt see.
This is the first military channel ive seen say this.
But surely they dont go in without a proper plan especially working with USA strategic teams, id expect there is a lot we dont know or understand.
One thing for sure is they cant just sit at home doing nothing trying to blow up incoming rockets for the rest of time they need to get provocative in some way and there is only so many military targets you can take out with air strikes.
The real problem behind it all though is Iran, they are the one who fund and train Hamas and Hezbollah.
Its scary that they are also close to getting Nuclear arms happening.
indo-dreaming wrote:basesix wrote:glad to see the penny is dropping, @indo.
Ive always wondered hell the hell they can get rid of Hamas i just expected not having the military knowledge there was answers i couldnt see.
This is the first military channel ive seen say this.
But surely they dont go in without a proper plan especially working with USA strategic teams, id expect there is a lot we dont know or understand.
One thing for sure is they cant just sit at home doing nothing trying to blow up incoming rockets for the rest of time they need to get provocative in some way and there is only so many military targets you can take out with air strikes.
The real problem behind it all though is Iran, they are the one who fund and train Hamas and Hezbollah.
Its scary that they are also close to getting Nuclear arms happening.
They cannot destroy Hamas, and even if they could another group maybe even more extreme will appear.
What is needed is a proper fair peace plan, with a 2 state solution or a democratic non apartheid state.
Is that possible?
Dunno but only the USA and Israel can start that process as they have the power. For this to be even a start the land grabs by foreigners such as my good ol mate Daniel have to stop!
Fundamentalists on both sides have to be sidelined.
andy-mac wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:basesix wrote:glad to see the penny is dropping, @indo.
Ive always wondered hell the hell they can get rid of Hamas i just expected not having the military knowledge there was answers i couldnt see.
This is the first military channel ive seen say this.
But surely they dont go in without a proper plan especially working with USA strategic teams, id expect there is a lot we dont know or understand.
One thing for sure is they cant just sit at home doing nothing trying to blow up incoming rockets for the rest of time they need to get provocative in some way and there is only so many military targets you can take out with air strikes.
The real problem behind it all though is Iran, they are the one who fund and train Hamas and Hezbollah.
Its scary that they are also close to getting Nuclear arms happening.
They cannot destroy Hamas, and even if they could another group maybe even more extreme will appear.
What is needed is a proper fair peace plan, with a 2 state solution or a democratic non apartheid state.
Is that possible?
Dunno but only the USA and Israel can start that process as they have the power. For this to be even a start the land grabs by foreigners such as my good ol mate Daniel have to stop!
Fundamentalists on both sides have to be sidelined.
Andy, do you really think in our world today. Fundamentalism can be sidelined?
Roadkill wrote:andy-mac wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:basesix wrote:glad to see the penny is dropping, @indo.
Ive always wondered hell the hell they can get rid of Hamas i just expected not having the military knowledge there was answers i couldnt see.
This is the first military channel ive seen say this.
But surely they dont go in without a proper plan especially working with USA strategic teams, id expect there is a lot we dont know or understand.
One thing for sure is they cant just sit at home doing nothing trying to blow up incoming rockets for the rest of time they need to get provocative in some way and there is only so many military targets you can take out with air strikes.
The real problem behind it all though is Iran, they are the one who fund and train Hamas and Hezbollah.
Its scary that they are also close to getting Nuclear arms happening.
They cannot destroy Hamas, and even if they could another group maybe even more extreme will appear.
What is needed is a proper fair peace plan, with a 2 state solution or a democratic non apartheid state.
Is that possible?
Dunno but only the USA and Israel can start that process as they have the power. For this to be even a start the land grabs by foreigners such as my good ol mate Daniel have to stop!
Fundamentalists on both sides have to be sidelined.Andy, do you really think in our world today. Fundamentalism can be sidelined?
Don't know ??
But to go on killing each other especially in the name of God, ideology, etc etc seems a pretty stupid way forward.
Just because we haven't used nuclear weapons since the end of WW2, doesn't mean it cannot happen.
Guess if nuc's were used it would fix all our problems ey.
live stream of Gaza. Plenty of machine gun fire and tanks. Sounds like Israel are back inside gaza
The buzz is drones flying above keeping an eye on it all
How mass migration could spread the Israel-Hamas war to Europe
A failure to integrate migrant communities from the Middle East has led to parallel societies.
James Crisp
Oct 25, 2023 – 6.19am
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Germany made a “grave mistake” in throwing open its borders to so many foreigners, Henry Kissinger said, after people celebrated Hamas’ terror attack on Israel in “painful” scenes on the streets of Berlin.
The former US Secretary of State, who fled Nazi Germany when he was a 15-year-old, said the scenes were “painful” to watch.
In Germany, pro-Palestinian protestors demonstrate at a rally in Bochum. AP
“It was a grave mistake to let in so many people of totally different cultures and religions and concepts because it creates a pressure group inside each country,” the 100-year-old said.
Kissinger’s intervention evoked long-standing European anxieties about “parallel societies” – a term for immigrant groups insulating themselves from their host country.
Now there are fears the Israeli-Hamas war will be fought out in the streets of Europe’s capitals, as well as in the Middle East. “When I hear Muslim religious authorities speaking the language of interreligious conflict and explicitly stating that Europe is a party to this conflict, I feel that the storm clouds are looming,” said Josep Borrell, the EU’s foreign policy chief last week.
Charles Michel, the European Council president, warned the conflict would have “major security consequences” as he convened a meeting of EU leaders to discuss the crisis. “If we are not careful, it has the potential to exacerbate tensions between communities and feed extremism,” he told the prime ministers and presidents of the 27 member states last week.
But by then the EU was already playing catch-up. Belgium and France were both at their highest terror alert following Islamist murders. In Brussels, a failed asylum seeker shot dead two Swedish nationals, while in Arras, a teacher was stabbed to death in what French President Emmanuel Macron said was the “barbarity of Islamist terrorism”.
Jewish schools were closed across Europe for fear of antisemitic terror attacks and guards were posted outside synagogues and other Jewish sites. There were bomb scares in France, including at the Louvre.
In the Netherlands, protestors burnt flags outside the Israeli embassy, and in Berlin’s Neukoelln district, which has a large Arab community, including 15,000 Palestinians, there were clashes with police. Some 65 officers were injured, despite a ban on demonstrations. There was also an arson attack at a Jewish cultural centre.
Attitudes towards migrants in Europe have hardened in the years since the 2015 migrant crisis. The more than a million people ordered to evacuate Gaza by the Israeli Defence Forces are not welcome in the European Union.
Eurostat, the EU’s statistics agency, says Europe’s population is shrinking and ageing. It predicts the population will shrink by 27.3 million people by 2100. But that cuts little ice in Europe, where support for hard-right, anti-immigrant parties is surging, and fiercely anti-migrant governments hold power in Hungary, Italy, Poland, Finland, Denmark and soon Slovakia.
“Europe doesn’t want to import the Middle East conflict more than it already has,” said Claude Moniquet, president of the European Strategic Intelligence and Security Centre think tank in Brussels. “And it is crystal clear that if we take more than a few hundred people, we will import the conflict.”
So what are the risks?
Germany
No other European country has taken in as many migrants as Germany, which once prided itself on its Willkommenskultur, or welcoming culture.
Former chancellor Angela Merkel decided Germany would take in more than a million refugees, most of them Syrians, during the migrant crisis in the previous decade.
In Brussels, the grand gesture was credited with saving EU free movement when member states were reinstating border controls as huge numbers crossed the Continent. The proportion of people born outside the EU in Germany has crept over 10 per cent of the population in the past decade.
About 924,000 Syrians now live in Germany, compared with about 118,000 in 2014. Integration has not always been easy. More than 600 women were sexually assaulted by migrants in the Cologne New Year attacks at the start of 2016.
Later that year, a rejected Tunisian asylum seeker drove a truck into a crowded Christmas market in Berlin, killing 12. However, Merkel’s determination that Wir schaffen es (We will manage it) also brought success.
By 2021, more than half of the asylum seekers who arrived in 2015 had jobs and paid taxes. There were more Syrian doctors in Germany than any other nationality apart from Germans.
But now German Chancellor Olaf Scholz, Merkel’s successor, has disowned the policy as local authorities complain they are at breaking point. He has tightened border controls with fellow EU members after migrant arrivals in Italy surged to heights not seen since 2016.
“The number of refugees trying to get to Germany is too high at the moment,” said the centre-left chancellor, who faces falling approval ratings and a surge in support for the hard-tight Alternativ fuer Deutschland (AfD).
Fears of parallel societies are not new in Germany, where Turks make up the largest proportion (18 per cent) of the 8.3 million foreign-born residents.
The world’s largest group of Turks overseas has its roots in a 1961 Gastarbeiter (guest worker) program and is fiercely supportive of Recep Tayip Erdogan, the authoritarian Turkish president
In June, there were scenes of jubilation in German streets after Erdogan’s election, which reawakened concern about Berlin’s long-running failure to integrate the guest workers.
Protestors in Paris last weekend called for a lasting peace between Palestinians and Israelis. AP
France
“We’re all Frenchmen and Frenchwomen, we mustn’t import this conflict,” warned Macron after hostilities broke out in the Middle East.
Muslims make up 10 per cent of the population in France, where more than 260 people have been murdered in Islamist terror attacks since 2012.
In November 2015, terrorists murdered 130 people, including 90 at the Bataclan theatre, in Paris. France’s Jews have been fleeing for Israel in droves after a string of antisemitic terror attacks.
France, which is home to Europe’s largest Jewish community, said it would ban all pro-Palestinian demonstrations after the Hamas attack on the grounds they posed a threat to public order. The decision was later overruled by a French court.
“The Palestinian cause has long been close to the heart of French Muslims, who often identify with Palestinians’ suffering through their own experiences of discrimination,” said Camille Lons, of the European Council of Foreign Relations think tank.
There are also tensions with the Muslim community over government moves to enforce French secularism, such as the ban on the veil. In June, there were days of riots after the police shooting of 17-year-old Nahel Merzouk, who was a French 17-year-old of Moroccan and Algerian descent.
Some 80 per cent of the 6.8 million Muslims in France are from former French colonies in North Africa. Of them, 43.2 per cent are from Algeria, 27.5 per cent from Morocco and 11.4 per cent from Tunisia.
Combining the 1.4 million Algerians, 1 million Moroccans and some 434,000 Tunisians is equivalent to about 4 per cent of the total French population. Until recently, they could take advantage of favourable visa conditions.
Macron is now seeking to push through a new immigration bill, France’s 29th since 1980, which will create new powers to strip foreigners of a residence permit if they fail to adhere to the values of the French Republic.
Protesters wave flags and carry banners at a pro-Palestinian demonstration in central London. Bloomberg
The authorities expect 140,000 asylum requests this year after 130,000 last year, when most claims came from Afghans. Interior Minister Gérald Darmanin recently put the number of illegal immigrants in France at “between 600,000 and 900,000”.
He has vowed not to accept a single migrant landing on the Italian island of Lampedusa in France. Darmanin lamented a “jihadist atmosphere” in France after the latest terrorist outrage.
Britain
The UK’s head of the Commission for Countering Extremism last week warned that pro-Palestinian demonstrations in London were stirred up by a “sophisticated” Iranian and Hamas network operating within Britain.
In a sign of how European fears are shared in the UK, a woman in Doncaster made headlines after fearfully mistaking innocent paragliders for Hamas terrorists attacking Yorkshire.
Britain has the second-largest Jewish community in Europe, numbering an estimated 300,000 people. According to the 2021 census, there are 331,844 Arabs in England and Wales.
Steve Valdez-Symonds, of Amnesty International, said, “Any serious politician had to push for integration and diversity, rather than preaching isolationism and stirring hate.” He added: “Multiculturalism is not merely a fact of society today – it has been and remains vital to centuries of economic, social and cultural enrichment.”
But Europe’s Jews are fearful after getting death threats, the chairman of the European Jewish Association had warned.
“Since the war started in Israel, the 2 million Jewish people living in Europe do not sleep at night,” Rabbi Menachem Margolin told the Telegraph.
“There are many, many thousands of people in Europe who support pro-Hamas protests, which means these are people who support terror and calls to kill the Jews,” he said
“I don’t want to be too dramatic. But I’m not sure in the circumstances the Jewish people could continue to live in Europe securely if governments do not wake up.”
andy-mac wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:basesix wrote:glad to see the penny is dropping, @indo.
Ive always wondered hell the hell they can get rid of Hamas i just expected not having the military knowledge there was answers i couldnt see.
This is the first military channel ive seen say this.
But surely they dont go in without a proper plan especially working with USA strategic teams, id expect there is a lot we dont know or understand.
One thing for sure is they cant just sit at home doing nothing trying to blow up incoming rockets for the rest of time they need to get provocative in some way and there is only so many military targets you can take out with air strikes.
The real problem behind it all though is Iran, they are the one who fund and train Hamas and Hezbollah.
Its scary that they are also close to getting Nuclear arms happening.
They cannot destroy Hamas, and even if they could another group maybe even more extreme will appear.
What is needed is a proper fair peace plan, with a 2 state solution or a democratic non apartheid state.
Is that possible?
Dunno but only the USA and Israel can start that process as they have the power. For this to be even a start the land grabs by foreigners such as my good ol mate Daniel have to stop!
Fundamentalists on both sides have to be sidelined.
How do you get more extreme than Hamas?
Hunting down civilians looking them in their eyes from babies to old raping and slaughtering them in the way they have is extreme, they even took video with victim's phones and uploaded or sent out on the victims social media of their death.
You cant destroy an ideology for example Natzism is still a thing but the Nazis were defeated and destroyed, remember this is also a government so it can be destroyed, go read about Fatah they were the alternative government and not as radical.
Being in government makes a group like this much more powerful because they control everything.
Two states solutions and peace aren't possible with Jihadist, Hamas charter literally says they want to kill all Jews, Hezbollah are also classified a a terrorist group and not much better.
indo-dreaming wrote:andy-mac wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:basesix wrote:glad to see the penny is dropping, @indo.
Ive always wondered hell the hell they can get rid of Hamas i just expected not having the military knowledge there was answers i couldnt see.
This is the first military channel ive seen say this.
But surely they dont go in without a proper plan especially working with USA strategic teams, id expect there is a lot we dont know or understand.
One thing for sure is they cant just sit at home doing nothing trying to blow up incoming rockets for the rest of time they need to get provocative in some way and there is only so many military targets you can take out with air strikes.
The real problem behind it all though is Iran, they are the one who fund and train Hamas and Hezbollah.
Its scary that they are also close to getting Nuclear arms happening.
They cannot destroy Hamas, and even if they could another group maybe even more extreme will appear.
What is needed is a proper fair peace plan, with a 2 state solution or a democratic non apartheid state.
Is that possible?
Dunno but only the USA and Israel can start that process as they have the power. For this to be even a start the land grabs by foreigners such as my good ol mate Daniel have to stop!
Fundamentalists on both sides have to be sidelined.How do you get more extreme than Hamas?
Hunting down civilians looking them in their eyes from babies to old raping and slaughtering them in the way they have is extreme, they even took video with victim's phones and uploaded or sent out on the victims social media of their death.
You cant destroy an ideology for example Natzism is still a thing but the Nazis were defeated and destroyed, remember this is also a government so it can be destroyed, go read about Fatah they were the alternative government and not as radical.
Being in government makes a group like this much more powerful because they control everything.
Two states solutions and peace aren't possible with Jihadist, Hamas charter literally says they want to kill all Jews, Hezbollah are also classified a a terrorist group and not much better.
"Hamas charter literally says they want to kill all Jews"
Yep, impossible to offer peace in good faith to an organisation that has the destruction of the Jewish state and all Jews as the ultimate end goal. Death is preferred over living in peace...they hate peace.
indo-dreaming wrote:andy-mac wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:basesix wrote:glad to see the penny is dropping, @indo.
Ive always wondered hell the hell they can get rid of Hamas i just expected not having the military knowledge there was answers i couldnt see.
This is the first military channel ive seen say this.
But surely they dont go in without a proper plan especially working with USA strategic teams, id expect there is a lot we dont know or understand.
One thing for sure is they cant just sit at home doing nothing trying to blow up incoming rockets for the rest of time they need to get provocative in some way and there is only so many military targets you can take out with air strikes.
The real problem behind it all though is Iran, they are the one who fund and train Hamas and Hezbollah.
Its scary that they are also close to getting Nuclear arms happening.
They cannot destroy Hamas, and even if they could another group maybe even more extreme will appear.
What is needed is a proper fair peace plan, with a 2 state solution or a democratic non apartheid state.
Is that possible?
Dunno but only the USA and Israel can start that process as they have the power. For this to be even a start the land grabs by foreigners such as my good ol mate Daniel have to stop!
Fundamentalists on both sides have to be sidelined.How do you get more extreme than Hamas?
Hunting down civilians looking them in their eyes from babies to old raping and slaughtering them in the way they have is extreme, they even took video with victim's phones and uploaded or sent out on the victims social media of their death.
You cant destroy an ideology for example Natzism is still a thing but the Nazis were defeated and destroyed, remember this is also a government so it can be destroyed, go read about Fatah they were the alternative government and not as radical.
Being in government makes a group like this much more powerful because they control everything.
Two states solutions and peace aren't possible with Jihadist, Hamas charter literally says they want to kill all Jews, Hezbollah are also classified a a terrorist group and not much better.
So what is the solution?
Genocide?
Mate there are just as extreme views within Israeli settler movement.
Anyway, if you think just killing innocents is going to solve problem and defeat Hamas, or whoever comes next, then that is you prerogative.
I really have no idea, just hate to see what is going on, and feel very blessed to be in Australia.
PS. My understanding (could be wrong) is that Israel initially supported Hamas to undermine the secular PLO and Fatah, kind of the same way the USA supported the Mujahideeneen in Afghanistan to fight the Soviets, and we know how that turned out with Osama etc.
And don't think for one second I do not understand the vileness of Islamic terrorism, I had friends lives lost and destroyed by the Bali bomb and was at Sanglah the day after helping with the shitshow. I will never forget, I had a sliding door moment I wasn't in the front bar of the Sari Club that night.
I do think Israel should offer a cease fire, and take a step back. Have a cease fire and allow in aid, food and medical supplies and the evacuation of injured for medical treatment and expect in return the handover of all hostages and the return of bodies of hostages killed so far.
Put it back onto Hamas. Give the offer with an understanding that Hamas does the right thing all whilst retaining the rights to retaliate against any Hamas aggression or breaking of the cease fire.
andy-mac "and feel very blessed to be in Australia."
Don't you just, times like these more than ever.
Fuck we've got it good.
That's why for decades, US power-families have bought up huge tracts of land in Tassie where they intend living out their legacy in peaceful fresh-air, once their shit hits the fan and their money is made.
Roadkill wrote:I do think Israel should offer a cease fire, and take a step back. Have a cease fire and allow in aid, food and medical supplies and the evacuation of injured for medical treatment and expect in return the handover of all hostages and the return of bodies of hostages killed so far.
Put it back onto Hamas. Give the offer with an understanding that Hamas does the right thing all whilst retaining the rights to retaliate against any Hamas aggression or breaking of the cease fire.
Agree....
goofyfoot wrote:andy-mac "and feel very blessed to be in Australia."
Don't you just, times like these more than ever.
Fuck we've got it good.
Yeah goofy.
Roadkill
An understanding ???
I don't believe Hamas can be trusted .
The Israeli's will know that .
I agree with U .
This is THEIR chance to do what Saladin did with the Christians in Jerusalem .
Show Mercy !
Their population want to throw out their PM and Defence Minister , and they know it .
Let's pray , to whoever , someone in the Israeli government ( they don't listen to the US at times like this imo ) has the balls to make that decision .
The Ultimate , turn the other cheek , I hope .
Hamas threw down a Gauntlet of unimaginable horror .
Can the Jews , put it back down ?
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