The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

bluediamond started the topic in

Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

southernraw Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 8:15pm

harrycoopr wrote:
GuySmiley wrote:
Ooops…. https://www.theage.com.au/national/anti-voice-rallies-organised-by-pro-p...

Hahaha...the right camp looking more shonky by the minute! Strange propaganda, outright lies, deception and derangement... the usual right's fare.

haha.
But it was on instagram!! Rumble!!! etc etc etc.

Jelly Flater Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 8:16pm

https://m.

&pp=ygUfY2F0aHkgZnJlZW1hbiA0MDBtIHN5ZG5leSBmaW5hbA%3D%3D

Hiccups Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 9:38pm

southernraw wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
GuySmiley wrote:
Ooops…. https://www.theage.com.au/national/anti-voice-rallies-organised-by-pro-p...

Hahaha...the right camp looking more shonky by the minute! Strange propaganda, outright lies, deception and derangement... the usual right's fare.

haha.
But it was on instagram!! Rumble!!! etc etc etc.

Alternate Media Watchers have 'The Aussie Cossack's, and Trashcan Fernando's numbers. Honestly, how do these people even exist?

That the same Aussie Cossack seen here sending messages to Neo Nazi Tom Sewell in encrypted messaging apps? https://t.co/a5W4hBVIPj
— Alternate Media Watchers (@AltMediaWatch) September 19, 2023

truebluebasher Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 10:08pm

11% [NO] Poll Anomaly is worth considering...
August Nat poll revealed a similar or exact same 19% Non Vote as April.

Let's break it down...
83% [YES] are dead set keen to lock Vote in.
54% of [NO] are dead set keen to lock Vote in
But! Big But! 19% of [NO] Will likely Boycott the Reffo.

Run a check on that...
19% of 55% [No] = 11% or 44% Maximum Vote%
If [YES] can lock in 45% + scrutinize 1% Dick Picks...They'll likely win the day!

In otherwords...[No] Voters ain't got the sacred heart to ink [NO] on Reffo Paper.
(All talk & no action > Rather boycott than do the dirty!)

tbb is just saying that very same 19% may have been locked in...from April > Poll day...
That's a massive lazy [NO] setback that needs a whole new campaign!
No worries...tbb is neutral & can help [NO] make up ground on Yuppie [YES] Pencil Pushers.

Ok [NO] Don't look so Grim...(Oops!) So that's yer smiles...Hmm! Might wanna work on that!

New Campaign Slogan : {If ya don't know...just rock up & vote for any shit...Pretty Please!}
That should do it...all sorted! Gee thanx tbb!

April 19% Not Voting (See Aug > Most of these are assumed to be Lazy [NO] voters!)
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/one-in-10-say-they-re-unlikely-t...

Aug 19% of [NO] are too lazy to Wot...FFS...[Vote N.O.] Must non enrolled tbb do it for ya?
"While ya there...can ya fill out one for me as well...beauty tbb...I 'll keep the score...Ok!"
Lack of Pride that [NO] never saw comin' Wot! Well durr...Ya gotta rock up to Vote [NO]...Fuck it!
https://secnewgate.com.au/sec-newgate-mood-of-the-nation-august-2023/

burleigh Tuesday, 19 Sep 2023 at 10:43pm

southernraw wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
GuySmiley wrote:
Ooops…. https://www.theage.com.au/national/anti-voice-rallies-organised-by-pro-p...

Hahaha...the right camp looking more shonky by the minute! Strange propaganda, outright lies, deception and derangement... the usual right's fare.

haha.
But it was on instagram!! Rumble!!! etc etc etc.

Nothing more shonky than Pfizer supporting the yes camp. They make this "pro-putin conspiricy theorist" look like a child.

southernraw Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 12:11am

Typical mindless deflection off topic as per usual. Nothing of substance.
You're out of your depth on this one Burleigh and your lack of education is showing you up for a fool.

Supafreak Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 5:12am

Well written Ronni . https://theshot.net.au/general-news/voiceless/?fbclid=IwAR2-gjubq0LRx-H6... and Thomas https://theshot.net.au/general-news/what-if-the-referendum-was-about-you/

indo-dreaming Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 6:32am

Supafreak wrote:
Well written Ronni . https://theshot.net.au/general-news/voiceless/?fbclid=IwAR2-gjubq0LRx-H6... and Thomas https://theshot.net.au/general-news/what-if-the-referendum-was-about-you/

Ha ha And Thomas

indo-dreaming Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 6:34am

"Disturbing moment Yes supporters call No campaigners a 'racist dogs' and 'w*nkers' as rally turns ugly

Protesters have branded those who plan to vote No in the upcoming Voice to Parliament referendum 'racist dogs' after gatecrashing a rally for the No campaign.

More than 1,000 people, many wearing 'No' supporter T-shirts, packed into the Adelaide Convention Centre to hear Jacinta Nampijinpa, Nyunggai Warren Mundine, South Australian Senator Kerrynne Liddle and other No campaigners speak at the Fair Australia rally on Monday.

But Yes supporters gatecrashed the event, confronting those attending the rally as they entered the building.

Liberal senator Alex Antic filmed a crowd of protesters as he walked into the convention centre, with many shouting expletives towards him.

'F**k you, you racist dog!' one shouted.

'Racist pig!' screamed another. 'Crazy w****rs!'

Mr Antic shared the video to social media, saying: 'Is this the 'unity' the Australian Labor Party promised us their referendum was going to bring?'.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12533365/Disturbing-moment-Yes-...

Fliplid Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 6:37am

great article supa. Bit of a cross reference with indos Spectator article too

Ronni Salt “Controversy and outrage are now the drugs conservatives crave in order to thrive.”

Spectator “Acting like a gateway drug, the Voice will have the effect of getting this nation and indigenous communities hooked on an ever-increasing welfare economy;”

Australia’s a funny place

Fliplid Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 6:41am

@indo

“I only provided the link to the article as, i was quoting and providing evidence of the hook comment, as i knew that the those involved in the voice have described the voice as the hook to get treaty etc”

Fair enough. I guess there may be some truth in the “hook” comment, although even the author seems to be hedging his bets about what was said so It’s hard to determine the accuracy of the “evidence”

Even so, I’m struggling to understand exactly how the “activists” are supposed to get what they want when the Voice has no direct power and anything that is suggested then needs to be ratified by Parliament. It could almost be made into a toothless tiger in some ways as it is totally reliant on the goodwill of the Parliament

“Anyway, its really not about politics, its about doing whats right for the future of Australia and preserving the integrity of the most important document our country has,”

Dutton is nothing but politics and he openly admits that he goes in boots and all. You’ve only got to look at the language he throws around to see that. It’s an ‘us and them’ mentality with him and always has been. The Constitution will be fine and this process is working exactly how it was designed to work

No one seems to have picked up on the fact that the LNP who have been spending the most on indigenous affairs over the decades are saying that it hasn’t been working but are now claiming they have a better solution to fix things. The Voice could be a way to redirect all that money in a more effective way and that’s why it could be a good thing for the country

andy-mac Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 6:50am

Supafreak wrote:
Well written Ronni . https://theshot.net.au/general-news/voiceless/?fbclid=IwAR2-gjubq0LRx-H6... and Thomas https://theshot.net.au/general-news/what-if-the-referendum-was-about-you/

Poor fella, my country.
Don't know how Australia could bounce back from a No win.
Sad.

gsco Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 7:02am

The Voice is a wanton, flagrant disregard for:
- our central legal and political institution and document, namely the constitution,
- the basic tenet of why Australia is the nation it is and why it has the political and legal institutions it has,
- and for the path humanity is on with respect to race, ethnicity, gender, sex, sexual preference, etc.

We are about to vote on a referendum to insert additional racism, racial discrimination, racial division, racial privilege, etc, into our constitution.

Australian political and legal institutions were specifically set up to create equal liberty, equal freedom and particularly equal opportunity and equal rights. The Voice does the opposite to this and creates discriminatory and privileged political rights based on race and ethnicity.

Humanity is on a path of removing all distinctions in political, legal, economic, etc, institutions - in overall society - relating to race, ethnicity, gender, sex, sexual preference, age, etc. The Voice does the opposite to this and in fact reinforces the enshrining of racial distinction, division and discrimination into our central political and legal document.

A Yes win means that Australia is a significantly racist and discriminatory nation and is on the opposite path humanity has been going down with respect to race and ethnicity.

A No win means that Australia is not racist and intends to continue down the path of humanity of removing institutional distinctions based on race and ethnicity.

Hiccups Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 7:06am

indo-dreaming wrote:
"Disturbing moment Yes supporters call No campaigners a 'racist dogs' and 'w*nkers' as rally turns ugly

Protesters have branded those who plan to vote No in the upcoming Voice to Parliament referendum 'racist dogs' after gatecrashing a rally for the No campaign.

More than 1,000 people, many wearing 'No' supporter T-shirts, packed into the Adelaide Convention Centre to hear Jacinta Nampijinpa, Nyunggai Warren Mundine, South Australian Senator Kerrynne Liddle and other No campaigners speak at the Fair Australia rally on Monday.

But Yes supporters gatecrashed the event, confronting those attending the rally as they entered the building.

Liberal senator Alex Antic filmed a crowd of protesters as he walked into the convention centre, with many shouting expletives towards him.

'F**k you, you racist dog!' one shouted.

'Racist pig!' screamed another. 'Crazy w****rs!'

Mr Antic shared the video to social media, saying: 'Is this the 'unity' the Australian Labor Party promised us their referendum was going to bring?'.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12533365/Disturbing-moment-Yes-...

Oh info. The rally was protesting university ties with the defence industry. You know, bombs and shit. There were no yes signs etc, but banners about that particular issue. Look, if Alex doesn't wanna be heckled for being a racist pig, well, the answer is pretty simple really. Don't be one.

Reform Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 7:08am

Voting YES is kind

Voting no is unkind

In my honest opinion. Thanks

Reform Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 7:16am

gsco wrote:
The Voice is a wanton, flagrant disregard for:
- our central legal and political institution and document, namely the constitution,
- the basic tenet of why Australia is the nation it is and why it has the political and legal institutions it has,
- and for the path humanity is on with respect to race, ethnicity, gender, sex, sexual preference, etc.

We are about to vote on a referendum to insert additional racism, racial discrimination, racial division, racial privilege, etc, into our constitution.

Australian political and legal institutions were specifically set up to create equal liberty, equal freedom and particularly equal opportunity and equal rights. The Voice does the opposite to this and creates discriminatory and privileged political rights based on race and ethnicity.

Humanity is on a path of removing all distinctions in political, legal, economic, etc, institutions - in overall society - relating to race, ethnicity, gender, sex, sexual preference, age, etc. The Voice does the opposite to this and in fact reinforces the enshrining of racial distinction, division and discrimination into our central political and legal document.

A Yes win means that Australia is a significantly racist and discriminatory nation and is on the opposite path humanity has been going down with respect to race and ethnicity.

A No win means that Australia is not racist and intends to continue down the path of humanity of removing institutional distinctions based on race and ethnicity.

Disillusioned theory...sigh..

indo-dreaming Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 7:31am

Hiccups wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
"Disturbing moment Yes supporters call No campaigners a 'racist dogs' and 'w*nkers' as rally turns ugly

Protesters have branded those who plan to vote No in the upcoming Voice to Parliament referendum 'racist dogs' after gatecrashing a rally for the No campaign.

More than 1,000 people, many wearing 'No' supporter T-shirts, packed into the Adelaide Convention Centre to hear Jacinta Nampijinpa, Nyunggai Warren Mundine, South Australian Senator Kerrynne Liddle and other No campaigners speak at the Fair Australia rally on Monday.

But Yes supporters gatecrashed the event, confronting those attending the rally as they entered the building.

Liberal senator Alex Antic filmed a crowd of protesters as he walked into the convention centre, with many shouting expletives towards him.

'F**k you, you racist dog!' one shouted.

'Racist pig!' screamed another. 'Crazy w****rs!'

Mr Antic shared the video to social media, saying: 'Is this the 'unity' the Australian Labor Party promised us their referendum was going to bring?'.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12533365/Disturbing-moment-Yes-...

Oh info. The rally was protesting university ties with the defence industry. You know, bombs and shit. There were no yes signs etc, but banners about that particular issue. Look, if Alex doesn't wanna be heckled for being a racist pig, well, the answer is pretty simple really. Don't be one.

Maybe they were there for other reason's too, but you can see from the large banner that much of the motivation was on this issue.

These kind of incidents just cause others to do similar, and then when the No camp does it to the Yes camp it will be a big news story.

No surprise really when you have people like Marcia calling the No side racist and stupid, it seems acceptable behaviour on the Yes side from the top down

indo-dreaming Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 7:24am

gsco wrote:
The Voice is a wanton, flagrant disregard for:
- our central legal and political institution and document, namely the constitution,
- the basic tenet of why Australia is the nation it is and why it has the political and legal institutions it has,
- and for the path humanity is on with respect to race, ethnicity, gender, sex, sexual preference, etc.

We are about to vote on a referendum to insert additional racism, racial discrimination, racial division, racial privilege, etc, into our constitution.

Australian political and legal institutions were specifically set up to create equal liberty, equal freedom and particularly equal opportunity and equal rights. The Voice does the opposite to this and creates discriminatory and privileged political rights based on race and ethnicity.

Humanity is on a path of removing all distinctions in political, legal, economic, etc, institutions - in overall society - relating to race, ethnicity, gender, sex, sexual preference, age, etc. The Voice does the opposite to this and in fact reinforces the enshrining of racial distinction, division and discrimination into our central political and legal document.

A Yes win means that Australia is a significantly racist and discriminatory nation and is on the opposite path humanity has been going down with respect to race and ethnicity.

A No win means that Australia is not racist and intends to continue down the path of humanity of removing institutional distinctions based on race and ethnicity.

100% correct.

Notice how Reform doesnt give a reason to why he thinks you are wrong.

And just post nonsense like voting Yes is kind and No unkind.

burleigh Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 7:34am

indo-dreaming wrote:
gsco wrote:
The Voice is a wanton, flagrant disregard for:
- our central legal and political institution and document, namely the constitution,
- the basic tenet of why Australia is the nation it is and why it has the political and legal institutions it has,
- and for the path humanity is on with respect to race, ethnicity, gender, sex, sexual preference, etc.

We are about to vote on a referendum to insert additional racism, racial discrimination, racial division, racial privilege, etc, into our constitution.

Australian political and legal institutions were specifically set up to create equal liberty, equal freedom and particularly equal opportunity and equal rights. The Voice does the opposite to this and creates discriminatory and privileged political rights based on race and ethnicity.

Humanity is on a path of removing all distinctions in political, legal, economic, etc, institutions - in overall society - relating to race, ethnicity, gender, sex, sexual preference, age, etc. The Voice does the opposite to this and in fact reinforces the enshrining of racial distinction, division and discrimination into our central political and legal document.

A Yes win means that Australia is a significantly racist and discriminatory nation and is on the opposite path humanity has been going down with respect to race and ethnicity.

A No win means that Australia is not racist and intends to continue down the path of humanity of removing institutional distinctions based on race and ethnicity.

100% correct.

Notice how Reform doesnt give a reason to why he thinks you are wrong.

And just post nonsense like voting Yes is kind and No unkind.

Totally agree.

burleigh Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 7:35am

southernraw wrote:
Typical mindless deflection off topic as per usual. Nothing of substance.
You're out of your depth on this one Burleigh and your lack of education is showing you up for a fool.

As was the previous post Southern. Your bias is also very clear. A simple minded fool.

Hiccups Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 7:39am

Edit: double post

Hiccups Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 7:39am

Hiccups wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
Maybe they were there for other reason's too, but you can see from the large banner that much of the motivation was on this issue.

A banner saying 'no pride in genocide'? I would think only the most odious humans on any side of the political spectrum would object to that notion

Also, look at the outright lie on the caption of that photo. Your news sources are as torched as your opinions.

burleigh Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 7:39am

Hiccups wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
Maybe they were there for other reason's too, but you can see from the large banner that much of the motivation was on this issue.

A banner saying 'no pride in genocide'? I would think only the most odious humans on any side of the political spectrum would object to that notion

All white people. I bet in 2020 they also had a facebook profile banner showing they had just been vaccinated.

Hiccups Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 7:43am

burleigh wrote:
Hiccups wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
Maybe they were there for other reason's too, but you can see from the large banner that much of the motivation was on this issue.

A banner saying 'no pride in genocide'? I would think only the most odious humans on any side of the political spectrum would object to that notion

All white people. I bet in 2020 they also had a facebook profile banner showing they had just been vaccinated.

All white people? Besides the fact that you can't always outwardly see people's ethnicity, you either need to learn how to pinchzoom on your phone, or get some glasses.

AlfredWallace Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 7:50am

gsco wrote:
The Voice is a wanton, flagrant disregard for:
- our central legal and political institution and document, namely the constitution,
- the basic tenet of why Australia is the nation it is and why it has the political and legal institutions it has,
- and for the path humanity is on with respect to race, ethnicity, gender, sex, sexual preference, etc.

We are about to vote on a referendum to insert additional racism, racial discrimination, racial division, racial privilege, etc, into our constitution.

Australian political and legal institutions were specifically set up to create equal liberty, equal freedom and particularly equal opportunity and equal rights. The Voice does the opposite to this and creates discriminatory and privileged political rights based on race and ethnicity.

Humanity is on a path of removing all distinctions in political, legal, economic, etc, institutions - in overall society - relating to race, ethnicity, gender, sex, sexual preference, age, etc. The Voice does the opposite to this and in fact reinforces the enshrining of racial distinction, division and discrimination into our central political and legal document.

A Yes win means that Australia is a significantly racist and discriminatory nation and is on the opposite path humanity has been going down with respect to race and ethnicity.

A No win means that Australia is not racist and intends to continue down the path of humanity of removing institutional distinctions based on race and ethnicity.

GSCO. Wow, you are some sick puppy. It’s only you suggesting all that racial bullshit and ‘what if’s’. Running scared I’d say.

Another selfish Australian to add to my list.

I’ve said it before, how can you live at ease and with yourself in a privileged, spoilt society that doesn’t even refer to Aboriginal people, the original inhabitants.
It’s really time to ‘grow up as nation’.

So GSCO. What’s your fear about giving Aboriginal people a voice, what are you scared of ?

How’s it going to affect you personally? I’d love to know.

You are some kind of voluminous poster of criticism re this post, so I’m sure your reply will be a lengthy doozy.

Time to look in the mirror, Australians. AW

andy-mac Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 7:49am

gsco wrote:
The Voice is a wanton, flagrant disregard for:
- our central legal and political institution and document, namely the constitution,
- the basic tenet of why Australia is the nation it is and why it has the political and legal institutions it has,
- and for the path humanity is on with respect to race, ethnicity, gender, sex, sexual preference, etc.

We are about to vote on a referendum to insert additional racism, racial discrimination, racial division, racial privilege, etc, into our constitution.

Australian political and legal institutions were specifically set up to create equal liberty, equal freedom and particularly equal opportunity and equal rights. The Voice does the opposite to this and creates discriminatory and privileged political rights based on race and ethnicity.

Humanity is on a path of removing all distinctions in political, legal, economic, etc, institutions - in overall society - relating to race, ethnicity, gender, sex, sexual preference, age, etc. The Voice does the opposite to this and in fact reinforces the enshrining of racial distinction, division and discrimination into our central political and legal document.

A Yes win means that Australia is a significantly racist and discriminatory nation and is on the opposite path humanity has been going down with respect to race and ethnicity.

A No win means that Australia is not racist and intends to continue down the path of humanity of removing institutional distinctions based on race and ethnicity.

No that is not the case ....

andy-mac Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 7:52am

indo-dreaming wrote:
Hiccups wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
"Disturbing moment Yes supporters call No campaigners a 'racist dogs' and 'w*nkers' as rally turns ugly

Protesters have branded those who plan to vote No in the upcoming Voice to Parliament referendum 'racist dogs' after gatecrashing a rally for the No campaign.

More than 1,000 people, many wearing 'No' supporter T-shirts, packed into the Adelaide Convention Centre to hear Jacinta Nampijinpa, Nyunggai Warren Mundine, South Australian Senator Kerrynne Liddle and other No campaigners speak at the Fair Australia rally on Monday.

But Yes supporters gatecrashed the event, confronting those attending the rally as they entered the building.

Liberal senator Alex Antic filmed a crowd of protesters as he walked into the convention centre, with many shouting expletives towards him.

'F**k you, you racist dog!' one shouted.

'Racist pig!' screamed another. 'Crazy w****rs!'

Mr Antic shared the video to social media, saying: 'Is this the 'unity' the Australian Labor Party promised us their referendum was going to bring?'.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12533365/Disturbing-moment-Yes-...

Oh info. The rally was protesting university ties with the defence industry. You know, bombs and shit. There were no yes signs etc, but banners about that particular issue. Look, if Alex doesn't wanna be heckled for being a racist pig, well, the answer is pretty simple really. Don't be one.

Maybe they were there for other reason's too, but you can see from the large banner that much of the motivation was on this issue.

These kind of incidents just cause others to do similar, and then when the No camp does it to the Yes camp it will be a big news story.

No surprise really when you have people like Marcia calling the No side racist and stupid, it seems acceptable behaviour on the Yes side from the top down

Are you deliberately lying, or ignorant? Marcia said nothing of the sort, you can watch what was said in full, not the Murdoch sliced and diced version.
Fark argue your case by all means, but stop with the blatant bullshit.

indo-dreaming Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 7:54am

Hiccups wrote:
Hiccups wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
Maybe they were there for other reason's too, but you can see from the large banner that much of the motivation was on this issue.

A banner saying 'no pride in genocide'? I would think only the most odious humans on any side of the political spectrum would object to that notion

Also, look at the outright lie on the caption of that photo. Your news sources are as torched as your opinions.

This is what you previously said.

"The rally was protesting university ties with the defence industry. You know, bombs and shit. There were no yes signs etc, but banners about that particular issue."

So how is an indigenous genocide banner related, to bombs and shit????

Its very clear the main reason they were there.

southernraw Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 7:57am

burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
Typical mindless deflection off topic as per usual. Nothing of substance.
You're out of your depth on this one Burleigh and your lack of education is showing you up for a fool.

As was the previous post Southern. Your bias is also very clear. A simple minded fool.

Geez the cream is really rising to the top today. Do you clowns share the same single brain cell? Unbelievable.
You lot are so scared. Fearful of what you will lose.
Never considering just a little sacrifice for the greater good. Always acting out of fear.
It seems to be the Australian way these days.
I'd hate to wake up everyday a scared frighten little kitten like you lot. I can only pity you.

Hiccups Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 8:00am

indo-dreaming wrote:
Hiccups wrote:
Hiccups wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
Maybe they were there for other reason's too, but you can see from the large banner that much of the motivation was on this issue.

A banner saying 'no pride in genocide'? I would think only the most odious humans on any side of the political spectrum would object to that notion

Also, look at the outright lie on the caption of that photo. Your news sources are as torched as your opinions.

This is what you previously said.

"The rally was protesting university ties with the defence industry. You know, bombs and shit. There were no yes signs etc, but banners about that particular issue."

So how is an indigenous genocide banner related, to bombs and shit????

Its very clear the main reason they were there.

I think if the main reason they were there was for the Yes vote, they'd have banners saying, vote yes. That would make sense, right? Also, see the sign saying 'no fracking on indigenous land'?

indo-dreaming Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 8:10am

andy-mac wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
Hiccups wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
"Disturbing moment Yes supporters call No campaigners a 'racist dogs' and 'w*nkers' as rally turns ugly

Protesters have branded those who plan to vote No in the upcoming Voice to Parliament referendum 'racist dogs' after gatecrashing a rally for the No campaign.

More than 1,000 people, many wearing 'No' supporter T-shirts, packed into the Adelaide Convention Centre to hear Jacinta Nampijinpa, Nyunggai Warren Mundine, South Australian Senator Kerrynne Liddle and other No campaigners speak at the Fair Australia rally on Monday.

But Yes supporters gatecrashed the event, confronting those attending the rally as they entered the building.

Liberal senator Alex Antic filmed a crowd of protesters as he walked into the convention centre, with many shouting expletives towards him.

'F**k you, you racist dog!' one shouted.

'Racist pig!' screamed another. 'Crazy w****rs!'

Mr Antic shared the video to social media, saying: 'Is this the 'unity' the Australian Labor Party promised us their referendum was going to bring?'.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12533365/Disturbing-moment-Yes-...

Oh info. The rally was protesting university ties with the defence industry. You know, bombs and shit. There were no yes signs etc, but banners about that particular issue. Look, if Alex doesn't wanna be heckled for being a racist pig, well, the answer is pretty simple really. Don't be one.

Maybe they were there for other reason's too, but you can see from the large banner that much of the motivation was on this issue.

These kind of incidents just cause others to do similar, and then when the No camp does it to the Yes camp it will be a big news story.

No surprise really when you have people like Marcia calling the No side racist and stupid, it seems acceptable behaviour on the Yes side from the top down

Are you deliberately lying, or ignorant? Marcia said nothing of the sort, you can watch what was said in full, not the Murdoch sliced and diced version.
Fark argue your case by all means, but stop with the blatant bullshit.

Marcias exact words were

“every time the No cases raise their arguments, if you start pulling it apart you get down to base racism — I'm sorry to say that's where it lands — or sheer stupidity”

I used the words "no side" that can include the campaign or no voters.

Marcia used the words "no case" she latter claims it was only directed at the campaign itself, but she clearly was just trying to save face, it can mean anyone who argues against the Yes case.

Those are her words, nobody made them up, and she has a history of similar comments.

So again its no surprise when you have those at the top throwing around these type of comments that their followers do the same.

southernraw Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 8:16am

I wish Marcia had doubled down.
History will judge you lot very poorly.
I wonder if your kids think the same as you.
Poisoned by the tree

gsco Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 8:20am

indo-dreaming wrote:
gsco wrote:
The Voice is a wanton, flagrant disregard for:
- our central legal and political institution and document, namely the constitution,
- the basic tenet of why Australia is the nation it is and why it has the political and legal institutions it has,
- and for the path humanity is on with respect to race, ethnicity, gender, sex, sexual preference, etc.

We are about to vote on a referendum to insert additional racism, racial discrimination, racial division, racial privilege, etc, into our constitution.

Australian political and legal institutions were specifically set up to create equal liberty, equal freedom and particularly equal opportunity and equal rights. The Voice does the opposite to this and creates discriminatory and privileged political rights based on race and ethnicity.

Humanity is on a path of removing all distinctions in political, legal, economic, etc, institutions - in overall society - relating to race, ethnicity, gender, sex, sexual preference, age, etc. The Voice does the opposite to this and in fact reinforces the enshrining of racial distinction, division and discrimination into our central political and legal document.

A Yes win means that Australia is a significantly racist and discriminatory nation and is on the opposite path humanity has been going down with respect to race and ethnicity.

A No win means that Australia is not racist and intends to continue down the path of humanity of removing institutional distinctions based on race and ethnicity.

100% correct.

Notice how Reform doesnt give a reason to why he thinks you are wrong.

And just post nonsense like voting Yes is kind and No unkind.

It's the standard response by the left/yes side.

The left/yes side's main "argument" for The Voice is simply a gigantic appeal to emotion.

And as we see above being levelled at me (and others), and all through the media, their main style of argument is insults, abuse, attacking the person and not the argument, ridicule, attempted public shaming, character assassination, etc.

It's what turned me off it all - when I realised their argument is all emotion with no substance and their style of argument is just abuse.

It's just vulgar.

southernraw Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 8:22am

Gsco do you believe reparations of any kind are necessary? Seems you wont address the actual issue.

harrycoopr Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 8:23am

U cant argue with burley costco lowinfo etc cos they got their heads so far up their own arses they can only see and spout shit... their own shit.... typical position for the right

fitzroy-21 Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 8:28am

harrycoopr wrote:
U cant argue with burley costco lowinfo etc cos they got their heads so far up their own arses they can only see and spout shit... their own shit.... typical position for the right

Jesus @harrycoopr, you've obviously never looked in the mirror.

And for the record, even after lengthy discussions with all my T.O. mates, I'm actually voting Yes.

gsco Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 8:38am

southernraw wrote:
Gsco do you believe reparations of any kind are necessary? Seems you wont address the actual issue.

Finally, someone asking me a valid question instead of abusing me.

Yes, 100%, as the wise person who originated this thread argued.

But inserting race and ethnicity based clauses into the constitution goes against all the lessons of history and the very reason Australian political and legal were settled upon and structured as they are after about 2,000 years of experimentation, wars, ups and downs, large scale societal failures, political and legal thought, etc.

Repatriations can be and have for decades been given without altering the constitution.

Quite simply, the culmination of the whole history and lessons of western civilisation is Australia, as embodied in our political, legal and economic etc institutions. The Voice as it stands is either intentionally blatantly contemptuous of this or just unaware of it.

goofyfoot Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 8:30am

Big day coming up for Indo and Harry.
Sore thumbs tonight.
Indo into it especially early today. Fired up.
Get it lads

Reform Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 8:32am

indo-dreaming][quote=gsco wrote:
Notice how Reform doesnt give a reason to why he thinks you are wrong.

And just post nonsense like voting Yes is kind and No unkind.

Its just a vibe thing, call it intuition with basic research. but more later maybe from me, probably :) have a nice day, cheers

indo-dreaming Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 8:34am

gsco wrote:
[
And as we see above being levelled at me (and others), and all through the media, their main style of argument is insults, abuse, attacking the person and not the argument, ridicule, attempted public shaming, character assassination, etc.

It's what turned me off it all - when I realised their argument is all emotion with no substance and their style of argument is just abuse.

It's just vulgar.

And literally right on cue only minutes latter, we have the perfect example

harrycoopr wrote:
U cant argue with burley costco lowinfo etc cos they got their heads so far up their own arses they can only see and spout shit... their own shit.... typical position for the right

harrycoopr Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 8:35am

goofyfoot wrote:
Big day coming up for Indo and Harry.
Sore thumbs tonight.
Indo into it especially early today. Fired up.
Get it lads

Sorry fellas... surfs up today. Just wanted to start the day with an observation on the pathology of the righties on here who are stuck in the shit.

harrycoopr Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 8:37am

gsco wrote:
southernraw wrote:
Gsco do you believe reparations of any kind are necessary? Seems you wont address the actual issue.

Finally, someone asking me a valid question instead of abusing me.

Yes, 100%, as the wise person who originated this thread argued.

But inserting race and ethnicity based clauses into the constitution goes against all the lessons of history and the very reason Australian political and legal were settled upon and structured as they are after about 2,000 years of experimentation, wars, ups and downs, large scale societal failures, political and legal thought, etc.

Repatriations can be and have for decades been given without altering the constitution.

Yeah... of course the constitution was founded in the same era as the WHITE AUSTRALIA POLICY ya diks

southernraw Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 8:37am

Thanks gsco. Appreciate the reply. Understand your viewpoint completely but just see it differently to you in some areas.
Cheers and have a good one.

burleigh Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 8:38am

southernraw wrote:
burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
Typical mindless deflection off topic as per usual. Nothing of substance.
You're out of your depth on this one Burleigh and your lack of education is showing you up for a fool.

As was the previous post Southern. Your bias is also very clear. A simple minded fool.

Geez the cream is really rising to the top today. Do you clowns share the same single brain cell? Unbelievable.
You lot are so scared. Fearful of what you will lose.
Never considering just a little sacrifice for the greater good. Always acting out of fear.
It seems to be the Australian way these days.
I'd hate to wake up everyday a scared frighten little kitten like you lot. I can only pity you.

Nothing you haven’t parroted 5 times before Southern. Same dribble from the same fool

burleigh Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 8:39am

Reform][quote=indo-dreaming wrote:
gsco wrote:
Notice how Reform doesnt give a reason to why he thinks you are wrong.

And just post nonsense like voting Yes is kind and No unkind.

Its just a vibe thing, call it intuition with basic research. but more later maybe from me, probably :) have a nice day, cheers

Just a vibe. Hahahahha

southernraw Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 8:40am

burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
Typical mindless deflection off topic as per usual. Nothing of substance.
You're out of your depth on this one Burleigh and your lack of education is showing you up for a fool.

As was the previous post Southern. Your bias is also very clear. A simple minded fool.

Geez the cream is really rising to the top today. Do you clowns share the same single brain cell? Unbelievable.
You lot are so scared. Fearful of what you will lose.
Never considering just a little sacrifice for the greater good. Always acting out of fear.
It seems to be the Australian way these days.
I'd hate to wake up everyday a scared frighten little kitten like you lot. I can only pity you.

Nothing you haven’t parroted 5 times before Southern. Same dribble from the same fool

You're a pussy mate.
In every way.

AlfredWallace Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 8:41am

gsco wrote:
southernraw wrote:
Gsco do you believe reparations of any kind are necessary? Seems you wont address the actual issue.

Finally, someone asking me a valid question instead of abusing me.

Yes, 100%, as the wise person who originated this thread argued.

But inserting race and ethnicity based clauses into the constitution goes against all the lessons of history and the very reason Australian political and legal were settled upon and structured as they are after about 2,000 years of experimentation, wars, ups and downs, large scale societal failures, political and legal thought, etc.

Repatriations can be and have for decades been given without altering the constitution.

GSCO. Thanks for your reply. Your opinion is fine, we’ve all got one.

Emotion is vulgar ?

Wow, so then, what word would you use for emotionless, I’m scared to hear your answer ? AW

basesix Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 8:44am

goofyfoot wrote:
Big day coming up for Indo and Harry.
Sore thumbs tonight.
Indo into it especially early today. Fired up.
Get it lads

you called it brah, and with southern back in, gs coming to terms with a few things, fitzy swinging and reform willing to take some hits, we could be on for a few decent heats. Shame Supa had to work early, he seems to keep things quite calm and conversational.

green room Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 8:50am

gsco wrote:
southernraw wrote:
Gsco do you believe reparations of any kind are necessary? Seems you wont address the actual issue.

Finally, someone asking me a valid question instead of abusing me.

Yes, 100%, as the wise person who originated this thread argued.

But inserting race and ethnicity based clauses into the constitution goes against all the lessons of history and the very reason Australian political and legal institutions were settled upon and structured as they are after about 2,000 years of experimentation, wars, ups and downs, large scale societal failures, political and legal thought, etc.

Repatriations can be and have for decades been given without altering the constitution.

Quite simply, the culmination of the whole history and lessons of western civilisation is Australia, as embodied in our political, legal and economic etc institutions. The Voice as it stands is either intentionally blatantly contemptuous of this or just unaware of it.

correct

harrycoopr Wednesday, 20 Sep 2023 at 8:53am

green room wrote:
gsco wrote:
southernraw wrote:
Gsco do you believe reparations of any kind are necessary? Seems you wont address the actual issue.

Finally, someone asking me a valid question instead of abusing me.

Yes, 100%, as the wise person who originated this thread argued.

But inserting race and ethnicity based clauses into the constitution goes against all the lessons of history and the very reason Australian political and legal institutions were settled upon and structured as they are after about 2,000 years of experimentation, wars, ups and downs, large scale societal failures, political and legal thought, etc.

Repatriations can be and have for decades been given without altering the constitution.

Quite simply, the culmination of the whole history and lessons of western civilisation is Australia, as embodied in our political, legal and economic etc institutions. The Voice as it stands is either intentionally blatantly contemptuous of this or just unaware of it.

correct

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