The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

bluediamond started the topic in

Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

harrycoopr Friday, 8 Sep 2023 at 6:18pm

burleigh wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
southernraw wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
burleigh wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
Interesting... my previous explanations dodged by Indo... plain logic fails him at last. Doesn't take a genius to see why Yes is so much smarter than no.

Harry, your posts don’t equal logic. Much like this one.

Ah the burley... clouding the waters. You know what, ppl like u and Indont remind me of what's sad about whitey... it's a mentality of denying... I think it's a carrythru from colonial times... deny blackfellas their land, their cultures, their rights... and now their Voice. There seems to be something in the hearts of ppl like this that takes perverse pleasure in denying others. And in this case denying something that is rightfully theirs!!
Ask yrself this burly, what difference does it make to me... what do I care... how does it really affect me? Look into why no is so important to u. Then go back to my original post.

Nailed it perfectly Harry.

Thanks SR... Burleys just resorting to nonsense now... no actual rebuttals of any substance or intelligence. They also remind me of Trumpians... ppl who have a chip on their shoulder, who feel they lack power... so they damn well use any little amount they can find and then feel better about themselves.
Ppl like burley and indo should read White Nation by Ghassan Hage... this would clear up everything about why they are the way they are... these books have been written for them!! Sad they don't utilise them.

Please refer to my previous comments about logic.

So sad burley

burleigh Friday, 8 Sep 2023 at 6:29pm

harrycoopr wrote:
burleigh wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
southernraw wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
burleigh wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
Interesting... my previous explanations dodged by Indo... plain logic fails him at last. Doesn't take a genius to see why Yes is so much smarter than no.

Harry, your posts don’t equal logic. Much like this one.

Ah the burley... clouding the waters. You know what, ppl like u and Indont remind me of what's sad about whitey... it's a mentality of denying... I think it's a carrythru from colonial times... deny blackfellas their land, their cultures, their rights... and now their Voice. There seems to be something in the hearts of ppl like this that takes perverse pleasure in denying others. And in this case denying something that is rightfully theirs!!
Ask yrself this burly, what difference does it make to me... what do I care... how does it really affect me? Look into why no is so important to u. Then go back to my original post.

Nailed it perfectly Harry.

Thanks SR... Burleys just resorting to nonsense now... no actual rebuttals of any substance or intelligence. They also remind me of Trumpians... ppl who have a chip on their shoulder, who feel they lack power... so they damn well use any little amount they can find and then feel better about themselves.
Ppl like burley and indo should read White Nation by Ghassan Hage... this would clear up everything about why they are the way they are... these books have been written for them!! Sad they don't utilise them.

Please refer to my previous comments about logic.

So sad burley

Lacking logic once again. “Sad”

indo-dreaming Friday, 8 Sep 2023 at 7:05pm

harrycoopr wrote:
southernraw wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
burleigh wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
Interesting... my previous explanations dodged by Indo... plain logic fails him at last. Doesn't take a genius to see why Yes is so much smarter than no.

Harry, your posts don’t equal logic. Much like this one.

Ah the burley... clouding the waters. You know what, ppl like u and Indont remind me of what's sad about whitey... it's a mentality of denying... I think it's a carrythru from colonial times... deny blackfellas their land, their cultures, their rights... and now their Voice. There seems to be something in the hearts of ppl like this that takes perverse pleasure in denying others. And in this case denying something that is rightfully theirs!!
Ask yrself this burly, what difference does it make to me... what do I care... how does it really affect me? Look into why no is so important to u. Then go back to my original post.

Nailed it perfectly Harry.

Thanks SR... Burleys just resorting to nonsense now... no actual rebuttals of any substance or intelligence. They also remind me of Trumpians... ppl who have a chip on their shoulder, who feel they lack power... so they damn well use any little amount they can find and then feel better about themselves.
Ppl like burley and indo should read White Nation by Ghassan Hage... this would clear up everything about why they are the way they are... these books have been written for them!! Sad they don't utilise them.

Judging by your post at 3;30 where its clear you are drunk, im guessing you knocked off at lunch and got on the piss early,.

So the big question is

"what ya drinking"?

https://www.swellnet.com/comment/917166#comment-917166

Jelly Flater Friday, 8 Sep 2023 at 7:15pm

https://m.

&pp=ygUQYWJvcmlnaW5hbCBwaW5ndQ%3D%3D

burleigh Friday, 8 Sep 2023 at 8:39pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
southernraw wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
burleigh wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
Interesting... my previous explanations dodged by Indo... plain logic fails him at last. Doesn't take a genius to see why Yes is so much smarter than no.

Harry, your posts don’t equal logic. Much like this one.

Ah the burley... clouding the waters. You know what, ppl like u and Indont remind me of what's sad about whitey... it's a mentality of denying... I think it's a carrythru from colonial times... deny blackfellas their land, their cultures, their rights... and now their Voice. There seems to be something in the hearts of ppl like this that takes perverse pleasure in denying others. And in this case denying something that is rightfully theirs!!
Ask yrself this burly, what difference does it make to me... what do I care... how does it really affect me? Look into why no is so important to u. Then go back to my original post.

Nailed it perfectly Harry.

Thanks SR... Burleys just resorting to nonsense now... no actual rebuttals of any substance or intelligence. They also remind me of Trumpians... ppl who have a chip on their shoulder, who feel they lack power... so they damn well use any little amount they can find and then feel better about themselves.
Ppl like burley and indo should read White Nation by Ghassan Hage... this would clear up everything about why they are the way they are... these books have been written for them!! Sad they don't utilise them.

Judging by your post at 3;30 where its clear you are drunk, im guessing you knocked off at lunch and got on the piss early,.

So the big question is

"what ya drinking"?

https://www.swellnet.com/comment/917166#comment-917166

That’s why I don’t drink ID. Harry making a bigger fool of himself yet again

I focus Friday, 8 Sep 2023 at 11:34pm

suprusty wrote:
Hi I Focus

Thanks for your conversational reply. I think we are on similar pages re transparency or accountability as I put it.

Reason for my post is a couple of pages back a contributor wanted to know why someone votes no. That got me asking myself How am I going to vote? Starting with being honest with myself I answered the question What concerns do I have? resulting in my post. I knew it wouldn't be to everyone's taste as I concluded that I'm probably a no voter. There's always at least 3 sides to every story so am I a staunch no voter, definitely not, I posted to see what other sides would be brought up in a conversational style. Your reply resonates with me. If the Voice publishes its advice that suits me but I would prefer publishing outcomes as well. If Albo's alternative to the Voice is just doing the same than that would sway me to a yes as I believe something has to change.

Believe it or not, what's having a bigger impact on me is Lydia, not her crazy actions, but her stand up and fight attitude. When you see in the media FNP with not much, saying their voting No because they don't want to make it worse meaning they are just going accept the current then the inner Lydia comes out - stand up and fight. Maybe that's what I need to do. Fight for them.

I look forward to the Yes party knocking on my door for a conversation. Not so much the No party - my sisters partner is a flag waving LNP supporter - heard those arguments long ago & yes some of those resonate with me.

Cheers

As a generalization the Voice debate has descended into the political arena complete with falsehoods.

If you peel back to the beginning there a few things to note.

You alluded to risk affecting your decision (my interpretation) regarding the Voice, its important to note the Voice is actually a vehicle developed under a Coalition government overseen by a large group of arch conservatives from very wide range of backgrounds High Court Chief Justices and Justices, conservative politian's, conservative constitutional experts etc.

These people are risk adverse on steroids', but note they have all signed off on supporting the Voice and its wording for the referendum. Look them up and read their opinions they matter.
We can dismiss the extremes like Mayo will turn Australia into communist's or your house will be taken from you, high court challenges etc because the conservatives have said its wont happen.

If you take on board there is little to no risk then the next issue is what will it achieve?

For this the recent productivity commission report is illuminating.

Where government acted on advice from Aboriginals the outcomes where far higher than where it was ignored. Unfortunately we don't know how often or not this occurs.

The advice from the Voice will be public not only a line in the sand for government should they accept or ignore but also a measure of the participates success in outcomes of the Voice its a win win for the public one of the very few in todays governance by secrecy at all costs.

suprusty Saturday, 9 Sep 2023 at 9:03am

Hi I Focus
One of the things I like about this conversation is I can express my views without feeling I’ll be ridiculed. Thank you.

I’m still going through the process of really challenging my perceptions. It’s something that I had to consciously do. You don’t realise how closed you can become until go through with it. My risk concerns haven’t changed but do they really matter as much in the big picture?

Did the walk a mile in shoes thing. Didn’t walk real far. After bringing in my personal ethics and values into the mix it’s getting clearer which way I’m going.

I appreciate your input. Thanks

harrycoopr Saturday, 9 Sep 2023 at 9:10am

burleigh wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
southernraw wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
burleigh wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
Interesting... my previous explanations dodged by Indo... plain logic fails him at last. Doesn't take a genius to see why Yes is so much smarter than no.

Harry, your posts don’t equal logic. Much like this one.

Ah the burley... clouding the waters. You know what, ppl like u and Indont remind me of what's sad about whitey... it's a mentality of denying... I think it's a carrythru from colonial times... deny blackfellas their land, their cultures, their rights... and now their Voice. There seems to be something in the hearts of ppl like this that takes perverse pleasure in denying others. And in this case denying something that is rightfully theirs!!
Ask yrself this burly, what difference does it make to me... what do I care... how does it really affect me? Look into why no is so important to u. Then go back to my original post.

Nailed it perfectly Harry.

Thanks SR... Burleys just resorting to nonsense now... no actual rebuttals of any substance or intelligence. They also remind me of Trumpians... ppl who have a chip on their shoulder, who feel they lack power... so they damn well use any little amount they can find and then feel better about themselves.
Ppl like burley and indo should read White Nation by Ghassan Hage... this would clear up everything about why they are the way they are... these books have been written for them!! Sad they don't utilise them.

Judging by your post at 3;30 where its clear you are drunk, im guessing you knocked off at lunch and got on the piss early,.

So the big question is

"what ya drinking"?

https://www.swellnet.com/comment/917166#comment-917166

That’s why I don’t drink ID. Harry making a bigger fool of himself yet again

Well u guys have hit rock bottom

Jelly Flater Saturday, 9 Sep 2023 at 2:04pm

;)

https://m.

Jelly Flater Sunday, 10 Sep 2023 at 11:19am

https://m.

&pp=ygULbmluYSBzaW1vbmU%3D

Reform Sunday, 10 Sep 2023 at 8:32pm

Hi Indo,
At the time I supposed that Sup could have been a pawn dropped into the forum by the LNP, this supposition may have been hasty, but yes I considered Sup to be a supporter of the LNP due to the post being weighted on the negative side, but with respect I didn’t label him as such.
Thank you for your efforts to get the latest polls chart and post them.

Hi Suprusty 
Please, there’s no disrespect intended re quip you are an undercover agent working for the LNP. It probably happens though and I don’t trust the LNP for one second, as it is a shameful power broking scheme for them to act in the negative towards this particular referendum. (The Leader of the LNP has absolutely no empathy or regard to the First Nation Peoples. Walking out when Kevin Rudd gave the ‘Sorry’ speech says it all).
I’m hearing in the media about the Yes vote being sidelined, I’ve genuinely tried to hear the valid reasons why this is so and believe the risk-averse theory is driven by fear, anxiety panic and blatant misinformation.
But what is there to fear about, who is it actually to fear? Look into our history of oppression and suffering on our soil, of precious land and livelihoods stolen, it’s plain to see who has been the aggressor and recognise who the ones are to fear.

You have eloquently versed your opinions and outlined your concerns as you prefer to withhold your consent for the voice with an attempt to disrupt a worthwhile cause (The voice) put to all Aust. citizens by the current Govt. and the aboriginal representatives. That gesture has been granted to honour the works and wisdom formulated and put forward by an indigenous body of leaders over some years to get to where it is now. All in the name of providing better outcomes for the living standards and livelihoods of the indigenous communities.

The current system fails miserably. All the indigenous people want is for their voice to be heard and recognised so better outcomes are put into practice in accordance to their own ways of dealing with things. And from what I have learned they can do that so much better than the white representatives we currently have under our governance could ever dream of doing.

I have entered into the discussion because I feel I have something to offer, however, I’m not sure if I can sway your vote or any others to ease the required ascent for you to glide over that fence but I am convinced the YES vote is the right and decent thing to do for the indigenous people and for Australia as a whole. For me ‘The voice’ has no inference of any risk-averse ‘fear’ whatsoever, none.

Here’s an excerpt from the Victorian Public Sector Commission:
[Before colonisation Aboriginal people lived in small family groups linked into larger language groups with distinct territorial boundaries. These groups had complex kinship systems and rules for social interaction; they had roles relating to law, education, spiritual development and resource management; they had language, ceremonies, customs and traditions and extensive knowledge of their environment. In other words, Aboriginal cultures were strong and well developed, Aboriginal communities were self-determining, and Aboriginal children were nurtured and protected.]

I’ve been researching a little bit and spoken with my lovely Indigenous confidante about the Voice on this topic, following is a few key points I have taken on board, I don’t propose these to be 100% accurate because it is only my interpretation as to how I have perceived this info, I’ll try to convey what we discussed:
Indigenous have an incredible sense of inclusivity. They account for their entire mob as one and intact because they care.
They are not affected by risk-averse fear. How is it justified to fear the ones that have been oppressed and not the aggressors!
Just look at the wording of the Uluru statement of the Heart, they want peace, they want to be individual, they want their mob to be intact and not incarcerated because they have empathy and care for all life on earth in a pragmatic way. They have a networking system in place imbued in their culture.
Whether whatever it is that suit their culture, it is not our legal system, it is theirs.

Who’s creating the wars by design? Not the indigenous.
Who is polluting the creeks and aquifers, oceans through gas, oil and mineral mining?
Who has cut down the native forests and continues to do so and allows the destruction of what is remaining including the biodiversity of plant, bird and animal and insect life? Not the indigenous.

To be honest I know little about the aboriginal psyche, of their needs emotionally and spiritually, because I am not aboriginal but their easy going, playful and fun nature resonates with me, imparts me to have the utmost respect because they are an evolved race with dignity and pride, have beauty, elegance, humility and brain, they are smart and fun.
Indigenous look after the land - they understand sustainability. For example: If their possessions are taken away tomorrow. They are the ones capable and showing the way of how to live and survive on the land as they just know how nature works, everything that is being taken is being replenished by the cycle of life, their way!

They had it all sussed out before colonisation overtook their land. They understand the effects of wind and fire, importance of fresh water, clean air that is organic to this earth, The bush tucker is by account largely or wholly from their knowledge. They know how and why the earth rotates and its place in the solar system and therefore the universe.

The aboriginal cultural knowledge has been passed on through story from generation to generation.

Every living entity on the earth needs a voice, You know “A little birdie told me” All birds have a voice to alarm others when alerting to imminent danger, Dolphins and whales, dogs, insects, trees, dugongs, koalas, us whities and all indigenous need a voice. Which one in this list is seeking theirs through a referendum in under 5 weeks from now? I ask for your compassion and just get on with it FFS!

I say let’s give them a voice and maybe we can learn something, maybe they have the answers to the mess that we currently are confronted with, we may actually be better off for it. Thanks

southernraw Sunday, 10 Sep 2023 at 8:39pm

Jelly Flater wrote:
;)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6c5_e3u2624

Wow this ages so well with time. It's amazing 23 years later, i still get the chicken skin i got that night.
Great to see and hear it from a different perspective, as much as i loved Macavaneys call.
What a monumental moment. Loved how they put the questions to her at the end.
Hopefully in a couple of months, there will be another monumental moment for Indigenous aussies to continue on from this one on the up and up.
Thanks for sharing JF. Good find!

Jelly Flater Sunday, 10 Sep 2023 at 10:48pm

https://m.

seaslug Monday, 11 Sep 2023 at 9:37am

https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/malcolm-mccusker-legal-eagle-on-key-quest...

seaslug Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 10:24am

Further to yesterday's article, Former High Court chief justice Robert French has taken on fellow legal eagle Malcolm McCusker over the Voice, rebutting the eminent barrister’s arguments against a Yes vote. Mr French says “most, if not all” of the questions Mr McCusker posed in a speech delivered in early August – the same as those outlined in a public letter from Opposition Leader Peter Dutton in January – had been answered. Other senior WA legal figures also rebutted Mr McCusker’s arguments, including former Supreme Court judge Rene Le Miere KC, former chief judge of the WA District Court Kevin Sleight and UWA constitutional law professor Sarah Murray. Mr Sleight said he had the utmost respect for Mr McCusker but his legal and constitutional concerns were not shared by the Law Council of Australia, which had consulted the views of the most eminent jurists throughout Australia.

seaslug Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 10:26am

Even the legal eagles can't agree, which is not a surprise, so what about us minions....

burleigh Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 10:42am

southernraw wrote:
Jelly Flater wrote:
;)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6c5_e3u2624

Wow this ages so well with time. It's amazing 23 years later, i still get the chicken skin i got that night.
Great to see and hear it from a different perspective, as much as i loved Macavaneys call.
What a monumental moment. Loved how they put the questions to her at the end.
Hopefully in a couple of months, there will be another monumental moment for Indigenous aussies to continue on from this one on the up and up.
Thanks for sharing JF. Good find!

Cathy Freeman brought this country together way more and did more for FNP than this voice vote will ever do.

udo Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 10:46am

Arthur and Cathy
Blacks just Fine..

A Salty Dog Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 10:57am

burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
Jelly Flater wrote:
;)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6c5_e3u2624

Wow this ages so well with time. It's amazing 23 years later, i still get the chicken skin i got that night.
Great to see and hear it from a different perspective, as much as i loved Macavaneys call.
What a monumental moment. Loved how they put the questions to her at the end.
Hopefully in a couple of months, there will be another monumental moment for Indigenous aussies to continue on from this one on the up and up.
Thanks for sharing JF. Good find!

Cathy Freeman brought this country together way more and did more for FNP than this voice vote will ever do.

I believe Freeman supports the Yes campaign.

burleigh Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 12:09pm

A Salty Dog wrote:
burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
Jelly Flater wrote:
;)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6c5_e3u2624

Wow this ages so well with time. It's amazing 23 years later, i still get the chicken skin i got that night.
Great to see and hear it from a different perspective, as much as i loved Macavaneys call.
What a monumental moment. Loved how they put the questions to her at the end.
Hopefully in a couple of months, there will be another monumental moment for Indigenous aussies to continue on from this one on the up and up.
Thanks for sharing JF. Good find!

Cathy Freeman brought this country together way more and did more for FNP than this voice vote will ever do.

I believe Freeman supports the Yes campaign.

What’s your point?

indo-dreaming Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 12:50pm

There has been a few more poll results in the last week, all are showing exactly the same thing.

"In the last week, we have had Voice polls from Essential, Redbridge and Freshwater (see below) as well as Resolve. I have updated the Voice polls graph to reflect these new results. The graph now includes point results and trend lines for Redbridge and Freshwater."

https://theconversation.com/voice-support-and-albaneses-ratings-continue...

Again polls can be wrong and we still have a month to go, so im not getting to excited just yet, but the signs are positive.

southernraw Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 12:58pm

burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
Jelly Flater wrote:
;)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6c5_e3u2624

Wow this ages so well with time. It's amazing 23 years later, i still get the chicken skin i got that night.
Great to see and hear it from a different perspective, as much as i loved Macavaneys call.
What a monumental moment. Loved how they put the questions to her at the end.
Hopefully in a couple of months, there will be another monumental moment for Indigenous aussies to continue on from this one on the up and up.
Thanks for sharing JF. Good find!

Cathy Freeman brought this country together way more and did more for FNP than this voice vote will ever do.

Thats your opinion based on your perspective. Alot of people think the opposite to you including me.
Still hoping you'll explain to me how the lives of indigenous Australians have improved in the last decade or so according to you and how you can align that to increased incarceration and a decrease in educational standards.
If you cant explain your simple point youre just blowing hot air with no substance, also known as trolling

basesix Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 1:09pm

ah well, a chance to try something historically different, asked for by first Australians, averted i guess. thanks for the update indo.
I think Salty's point, burleigh, is that, yes, Freeman has done a lot for Aboriginal people, particularly in shoring-up educational pathways for young people, glad you think we should celebrate her continued contribution over the past 20 years.
I'm sure you'd agree, the idea that we as a nation would only condone pride-in-aboriginality for those that perform impressive but subjugated dances in our colosseums for the sportsbet set... well, would be really, really shit.

harrycoopr Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 1:12pm

Not TOO excited yet Indo... signs are positive? You really are a firstgrade knob

harrycoopr Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 1:15pm

Well when the ref fails then I can't wait to see what burleigh indos response will be when the blackfellas start demanding the treaties that were never generally worked out when the land theft was taking place.

burleigh Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 1:42pm

southernraw wrote:
burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
Jelly Flater wrote:
;)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6c5_e3u2624

Wow this ages so well with time. It's amazing 23 years later, i still get the chicken skin i got that night.
Great to see and hear it from a different perspective, as much as i loved Macavaneys call.
What a monumental moment. Loved how they put the questions to her at the end.
Hopefully in a couple of months, there will be another monumental moment for Indigenous aussies to continue on from this one on the up and up.
Thanks for sharing JF. Good find!

Cathy Freeman brought this country together way more and did more for FNP than this voice vote will ever do.

Thats your opinion based on your perspective. Alot of people think the opposite to you including me.
Still hoping you'll explain to me how the lives of indigenous Australians have improved in the last decade or so according to you and how you can align that to increased incarceration and a decrease in educational standards.
If you cant explain your simple point youre just blowing hot air with no substance, also known as trolling

When did I say the lives of indigenous Australians have improved in the last decade?

There is 100% more recognition in schools for FNP than when I was in school. More education about the people who were here long before us white folk.

And more education of our white Australian children surrounding FNP is exactly what is needed.

There has been a HUGE shift in white Australians celebrating Australia Day. White Australians now have a far greater understanding of the hurt this day causes FNP.

All these little things are helping bridge the gap.

The future generations will show this.

We don’t need a vote.

We are all Australian.

burleigh Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 1:43pm

harrycoopr wrote:
Well when the ref fails then I can't wait to see what burleigh indos response will be when the blackfellas start demanding the treaties that were never generally worked out when the land theft was taking place.

Harry has been day drinking again

harrycoopr Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 2:50pm

It's that yr best burley? Rather pissweak huh

garyg1412 Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 3:12pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
There has been a few more poll results in the last week, all are showing exactly the same thing.

"In the last week, we have had Voice polls from Essential, Redbridge and Freshwater (see below) as well as Resolve. I have updated the Voice polls graph to reflect these new results. The graph now includes point results and trend lines for Redbridge and Freshwater."

https://theconversation.com/voice-support-and-albaneses-ratings-continue...

Again polls can be wrong and we still have a month to go, so im not getting to excited just yet, but the signs are positive.

Don't worry Indo. Tasmanians will bring the Yes vote home. All those polls don't take into account we get two votes per person down here. The successful voice of indigenous Australians will ride into town on the coat tails of the state that is supposedly 20 years behind the rest of the country. Now I'm probably more excited than you.

burleigh Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 3:27pm

harrycoopr wrote:
It's that yr best burley? Rather pissweak huh

Cheers

sypkan Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 3:37pm

love it when the measured and moderate dish out some colourful language...

"“Attaching your campaign to a toxic brand like Qantas and one of the most disliked CEOs in the country might work if you are pitching your message to the members of the Chairman’s Lounge, but in suburban and regional Australia it goes down like a cup of sick,” he said"

and that's some colourful language!

https://www.news.com.au/national/politics/completely-mishandled-dutton-u...

southernraw Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 4:04pm

burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
Jelly Flater wrote:
;)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6c5_e3u2624

Wow this ages so well with time. It's amazing 23 years later, i still get the chicken skin i got that night.
Great to see and hear it from a different perspective, as much as i loved Macavaneys call.
What a monumental moment. Loved how they put the questions to her at the end.
Hopefully in a couple of months, there will be another monumental moment for Indigenous aussies to continue on from this one on the up and up.
Thanks for sharing JF. Good find!

Cathy Freeman brought this country together way more and did more for FNP than this voice vote will ever do.

Thats your opinion based on your perspective. Alot of people think the opposite to you including me.
Still hoping you'll explain to me how the lives of indigenous Australians have improved in the last decade or so according to you and how you can align that to increased incarceration and a decrease in educational standards.
If you cant explain your simple point youre just blowing hot air with no substance, also known as trolling

When did I say the lives of indigenous Australians have improved in the last decade?
.

Wednesday, 30 August 2023, at 10.53pm
burleigh wrote "You don't believe indigenous Australians have had any positive steps forward in the last 15 - 20 years?
i do, and it's been done without the need for a political vote that will/is once again dividing a nation and the only people in the firing line are the ones that the vote is apparently for."

southernraw Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 4:09pm

burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
Jelly Flater wrote:
;)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6c5_e3u2624

Wow this ages so well with time. It's amazing 23 years later, i still get the chicken skin i got that night.
Great to see and hear it from a different perspective, as much as i loved Macavaneys call.
What a monumental moment. Loved how they put the questions to her at the end.
Hopefully in a couple of months, there will be another monumental moment for Indigenous aussies to continue on from this one on the up and up.
Thanks for sharing JF. Good find!

Cathy Freeman brought this country together way more and did more for FNP than this voice vote will ever do.

Thats your opinion based on your perspective. Alot of people think the opposite to you including me.
Still hoping you'll explain to me how the lives of indigenous Australians have improved in the last decade or so according to you and how you can align that to increased incarceration and a decrease in educational standards.
If you cant explain your simple point youre just blowing hot air with no substance, also known as trolling

When did I say the lives of indigenous Australians have improved in the last decade?

There is 100% more recognition in schools for FNP than when I was in school. More education about the people who were here long before us white folk.

And more education of our white Australian children surrounding FNP is exactly what is needed.

There has been a HUGE shift in white Australians celebrating Australia Day. White Australians now have a far greater understanding of the hurt this day causes FNP.

All these little things are helping bridge the gap.

The future generations will show this.

We don’t need a vote.

We are all Australian.

Anyway you did reply so thanks. But it's a pretty flawed reply to be honest.
I asked how the lives of Indigenous Australians have improved, and you've given me a list of how white Australians have become more accepting.
Finished with 'we don't need a vote, we are all Australian.'
Well yeah, maybe you don't need a vote burleigh, but it's not about you is it. It's about those that haven't had a voice for the duration of the time white settlers have lived here. And you'd rather keep that voice silenced because you have a percieved sense that all is fine with them based on nothing, even though it's clearly not.
I tried to think of the major improvements in Indigenous Australians lives in the last 15 years, and all ive got is they gave Adam Goodes a belated statue outside the SCG.
33 years after the song Treaty was released and no government has even come close to any type of reconciliation.
Sadly this isn't a treaty, but it's the first step in a process.
Careful burleigh. I like you, you stand up for what you think is right, but when people start aligning you with lowinfo dreaming, it's a slippery slope....you can't come back from that shit.

harrycoopr Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 4:28pm

southernraw wrote:
burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
Jelly Flater wrote:
;)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6c5_e3u2624

Wow this ages so well with time. It's amazing 23 years later, i still get the chicken skin i got that night.
Great to see and hear it from a different perspective, as much as i loved Macavaneys call.
What a monumental moment. Loved how they put the questions to her at the end.
Hopefully in a couple of months, there will be another monumental moment for Indigenous aussies to continue on from this one on the up and up.
Thanks for sharing JF. Good find!

Cathy Freeman brought this country together way more and did more for FNP than this voice vote will ever do.

Thats your opinion based on your perspective. Alot of people think the opposite to you including me.
Still hoping you'll explain to me how the lives of indigenous Australians have improved in the last decade or so according to you and how you can align that to increased incarceration and a decrease in educational standards.
If you cant explain your simple point youre just blowing hot air with no substance, also known as trolling

When did I say the lives of indigenous Australians have improved in the last decade?

There is 100% more recognition in schools for FNP than when I was in school. More education about the people who were here long before us white folk.

And more education of our white Australian children surrounding FNP is exactly what is needed.

There has been a HUGE shift in white Australians celebrating Australia Day. White Australians now have a far greater understanding of the hurt this day causes FNP.

All these little things are helping bridge the gap.

The future generations will show this.

We don’t need a vote.

We are all Australian.

Anyway you did reply so thanks. But it's a pretty flawed reply to be honest.
I asked how the lives of Indigenous Australians have improved, and you've given me a list of how white Australians have become more accepting.
Finished with 'we don't need a vote, we are all Australian.'
Well yeah, maybe you don't need a vote burleigh, but it's not about you is it. It's about those that haven't had a voice for the duration of the time white settlers have lived here. And you'd rather keep that voice silenced because you have a percieved sense that all is fine with them based on nothing, even though it's clearly not.
I tried to think of the major improvements in Indigenous Australians lives in the last 15 years, and all ive got is they gave Adam Goodes a belated statue outside the SCG.
33 years after the song Treaty was released and no government has even come close to any type of reconciliation.
Sadly this isn't a treaty, but it's the first step in a process.
Careful burleigh. I like you, you stand up for what you think is right, but when people start aligning you with lowinfo dreaming, it's a slippery slope....you can't come back from that shit.

Well said SR. Even ol Hawkey was backing a Makarratta process in the 80s. I saw burley and indo personified on 4 corners last night thru a farmer doing it well who was bleating on about division and even had the audacity to say a voice would privilege a small group of ppl... privilege!!! A farmer whose ancestors "displaced" the original occupants! A farmer making good coin off "his" land.
You know, there's truth and lies, right and wrong... sometimes a grey zone. But in this case the Voice is right and the burley/indos of this world are wrong. It's as simple as that... plain to see.

southernraw Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 4:44pm

Yep. Well said Harry. Especially about the farmer who's making coin off the land.
That's especially prevalent over here in the West. Got a few fb friends from my travels that own large properties throughout the state and they're doing the same 'bleating', posting that same narrative. Mostly in their 60s and 70s.
. Their farms are generational, passed down through the families so they're born into the asset, which more often than not, is rather juicy in dollar figures considering most of these farms are huge properties with high turnovers of grain or livestock.
Right back when indigenous crews land's were stolen off them by the original settlers starting these farms, indigenous people were criminalized, often with severe consequences, just for trying to get food off their traditional lands, which often could be the farmers cattle, as that was what remained on their lands.
I can imagine bad blood from the indigenous crew to this day for that, but from the fuckers that stole their land, it's disgusting.
It's the same as people like lowinfo. I think it's a guilt complex easier confronted by ignorance and shouting louder so as not to actually accept any responsibility for past injustices. The old 'i wasn't there so why should i be guilty' holds no substance when you have the ability right now, (especially with this upcoming vote) to make a postive change that, especially when viewed in history, can be seen as righting one of many wrongs.
Gotta start somewhere, and saying no is starting nowhere, and i'd say there's a deeper reason people want to vote no.

indo-dreaming Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 5:09pm

garyg1412 wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
There has been a few more poll results in the last week, all are showing exactly the same thing.

"In the last week, we have had Voice polls from Essential, Redbridge and Freshwater (see below) as well as Resolve. I have updated the Voice polls graph to reflect these new results. The graph now includes point results and trend lines for Redbridge and Freshwater."

https://theconversation.com/voice-support-and-albaneses-ratings-continue...

Again polls can be wrong and we still have a month to go, so im not getting to excited just yet, but the signs are positive.

Don't worry Indo. Tasmanians will bring the Yes vote home. All those polls don't take into account we get two votes per person down here. The successful voice of indigenous Australians will ride into town on the coat tails of the state that is supposedly 20 years behind the rest of the country. Now I'm probably more excited than you.

Lived in Tassie for years through late 80s early 90s many of my best mates come from or still live in Tas, so its a place i love and feel like i know.

But its a real strange aspect to see Tassie being the only state where the yes vote is in front, especially seeing its the only LNP state.

Any thoughts on why?

Its weird, i cant explain it.

As much as its a cliche when i lived there Tassie was really behind in many ways because back then it was so cut off from the mainland, but in this day and age with the internet etc, i wouldn't have thought this was a factor . (all states were majority Yes 6 months ago)

indo-dreaming Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 5:29pm

wasn't a factor, not was a factor.

burleigh Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 5:52pm

southernraw wrote:
burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
Jelly Flater wrote:
;)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6c5_e3u2624

Wow this ages so well with time. It's amazing 23 years later, i still get the chicken skin i got that night.
Great to see and hear it from a different perspective, as much as i loved Macavaneys call.
What a monumental moment. Loved how they put the questions to her at the end.
Hopefully in a couple of months, there will be another monumental moment for Indigenous aussies to continue on from this one on the up and up.
Thanks for sharing JF. Good find!

Cathy Freeman brought this country together way more and did more for FNP than this voice vote will ever do.

Thats your opinion based on your perspective. Alot of people think the opposite to you including me.
Still hoping you'll explain to me how the lives of indigenous Australians have improved in the last decade or so according to you and how you can align that to increased incarceration and a decrease in educational standards.
If you cant explain your simple point youre just blowing hot air with no substance, also known as trolling

When did I say the lives of indigenous Australians have improved in the last decade?

There is 100% more recognition in schools for FNP than when I was in school. More education about the people who were here long before us white folk.

And more education of our white Australian children surrounding FNP is exactly what is needed.

There has been a HUGE shift in white Australians celebrating Australia Day. White Australians now have a far greater understanding of the hurt this day causes FNP.

All these little things are helping bridge the gap.

The future generations will show this.

We don’t need a vote.

We are all Australian.

Anyway you did reply so thanks. But it's a pretty flawed reply to be honest.
I asked how the lives of Indigenous Australians have improved, and you've given me a list of how white Australians have become more accepting.
Finished with 'we don't need a vote, we are all Australian.'
Well yeah, maybe you don't need a vote burleigh, but it's not about you is it. It's about those that haven't had a voice for the duration of the time white settlers have lived here. And you'd rather keep that voice silenced because you have a percieved sense that all is fine with them based on nothing, even though it's clearly not.
I tried to think of the major improvements in Indigenous Australians lives in the last 15 years, and all ive got is they gave Adam Goodes a belated statue outside the SCG.
33 years after the song Treaty was released and no government has even come close to any type of reconciliation.
Sadly this isn't a treaty, but it's the first step in a process.
Careful burleigh. I like you, you stand up for what you think is right, but when people start aligning you with lowinfo dreaming, it's a slippery slope....you can't come back from that shit.

In my kids school on the Gold Coast they also have indigenous leaders elected every year. You don’t believe this is a step forward? You believe this is still silencing said indigenous? Welcome to country done at every assembly + the aboriginal flag flying proudly out the front of the school.

These are all steps forward in the last 10 years.

Just one very small example of how things have improved in the last 10 - 20 years.

It’s happened across every area.

We don’t need a voice. The voice is already happening

burleigh Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 5:53pm

harrycoopr wrote:
southernraw wrote:
burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
Jelly Flater wrote:
;)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6c5_e3u2624

Wow this ages so well with time. It's amazing 23 years later, i still get the chicken skin i got that night.
Great to see and hear it from a different perspective, as much as i loved Macavaneys call.
What a monumental moment. Loved how they put the questions to her at the end.
Hopefully in a couple of months, there will be another monumental moment for Indigenous aussies to continue on from this one on the up and up.
Thanks for sharing JF. Good find!

Cathy Freeman brought this country together way more and did more for FNP than this voice vote will ever do.

Thats your opinion based on your perspective. Alot of people think the opposite to you including me.
Still hoping you'll explain to me how the lives of indigenous Australians have improved in the last decade or so according to you and how you can align that to increased incarceration and a decrease in educational standards.
If you cant explain your simple point youre just blowing hot air with no substance, also known as trolling

When did I say the lives of indigenous Australians have improved in the last decade?

There is 100% more recognition in schools for FNP than when I was in school. More education about the people who were here long before us white folk.

And more education of our white Australian children surrounding FNP is exactly what is needed.

There has been a HUGE shift in white Australians celebrating Australia Day. White Australians now have a far greater understanding of the hurt this day causes FNP.

All these little things are helping bridge the gap.

The future generations will show this.

We don’t need a vote.

We are all Australian.

Anyway you did reply so thanks. But it's a pretty flawed reply to be honest.
I asked how the lives of Indigenous Australians have improved, and you've given me a list of how white Australians have become more accepting.
Finished with 'we don't need a vote, we are all Australian.'
Well yeah, maybe you don't need a vote burleigh, but it's not about you is it. It's about those that haven't had a voice for the duration of the time white settlers have lived here. And you'd rather keep that voice silenced because you have a percieved sense that all is fine with them based on nothing, even though it's clearly not.
I tried to think of the major improvements in Indigenous Australians lives in the last 15 years, and all ive got is they gave Adam Goodes a belated statue outside the SCG.
33 years after the song Treaty was released and no government has even come close to any type of reconciliation.
Sadly this isn't a treaty, but it's the first step in a process.
Careful burleigh. I like you, you stand up for what you think is right, but when people start aligning you with lowinfo dreaming, it's a slippery slope....you can't come back from that shit.

Well said SR. Even ol Hawkey was backing a Makarratta process in the 80s. I saw burley and indo personified on 4 corners last night thru a farmer doing it well who was bleating on about division and even had the audacity to say a voice would privilege a small group of ppl... privilege!!! A farmer whose ancestors "displaced" the original occupants! A farmer making good coin off "his" land.
You know, there's truth and lies, right and wrong... sometimes a grey zone. But in this case the Voice is right and the burley/indos of this world are wrong. It's as simple as that... plain to see.

How many beers now?

southernraw Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 6:18pm

burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
Jelly Flater wrote:
;)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6c5_e3u2624

Wow this ages so well with time. It's amazing 23 years later, i still get the chicken skin i got that night.
Great to see and hear it from a different perspective, as much as i loved Macavaneys call.
What a monumental moment. Loved how they put the questions to her at the end.
Hopefully in a couple of months, there will be another monumental moment for Indigenous aussies to continue on from this one on the up and up.
Thanks for sharing JF. Good find!

Cathy Freeman brought this country together way more and did more for FNP than this voice vote will ever do.

Thats your opinion based on your perspective. Alot of people think the opposite to you including me.
Still hoping you'll explain to me how the lives of indigenous Australians have improved in the last decade or so according to you and how you can align that to increased incarceration and a decrease in educational standards.
If you cant explain your simple point youre just blowing hot air with no substance, also known as trolling

When did I say the lives of indigenous Australians have improved in the last decade?

There is 100% more recognition in schools for FNP than when I was in school. More education about the people who were here long before us white folk.

And more education of our white Australian children surrounding FNP is exactly what is needed.

There has been a HUGE shift in white Australians celebrating Australia Day. White Australians now have a far greater understanding of the hurt this day causes FNP.

All these little things are helping bridge the gap.

The future generations will show this.

We don’t need a vote.

We are all Australian.

Anyway you did reply so thanks. But it's a pretty flawed reply to be honest.
I asked how the lives of Indigenous Australians have improved, and you've given me a list of how white Australians have become more accepting.
Finished with 'we don't need a vote, we are all Australian.'
Well yeah, maybe you don't need a vote burleigh, but it's not about you is it. It's about those that haven't had a voice for the duration of the time white settlers have lived here. And you'd rather keep that voice silenced because you have a percieved sense that all is fine with them based on nothing, even though it's clearly not.
I tried to think of the major improvements in Indigenous Australians lives in the last 15 years, and all ive got is they gave Adam Goodes a belated statue outside the SCG.
33 years after the song Treaty was released and no government has even come close to any type of reconciliation.
Sadly this isn't a treaty, but it's the first step in a process.
Careful burleigh. I like you, you stand up for what you think is right, but when people start aligning you with lowinfo dreaming, it's a slippery slope....you can't come back from that shit.

In my kids school on the Gold Coast they also have indigenous leaders elected every year. You don’t believe this is a step forward? You believe this is still silencing said indigenous? Welcome to country done at every assembly + the aboriginal flag flying proudly out the front of the school.

These are all steps forward in the last 10 years.

Just one very small example of how things have improved in the last 10 - 20 years.

It’s happened across every area.

We don’t need a voice. The voice is already happening

No argument from me on small steps to help white people embrace indigenous Australians.
But again, it's still within the framework of whiteman/western culture.
This is voice is about Indigenous Australians helping themselves.
I think that's the difference that we can't see eye to eye on, but good to have the discussion.
Even if, and it may only amount to this, but even if this voice turns out to be nothing more than symbolic, do you not have belief in the power of that symbolism for indigenous ozzies? After all, flying flags at schools and having welcome to countries, are also that. Acts of symbolism that we embrace.
If the voice is anything more than that, wouldn't it be a good thing anyway?
I'm still not sure what it is you're actually fearful of happening should the yes vote get up.

indo-dreaming Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 7:14pm

southernraw wrote:
burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
Jelly Flater wrote:
;)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6c5_e3u2624

Wow this ages so well with time. It's amazing 23 years later, i still get the chicken skin i got that night.
Great to see and hear it from a different perspective, as much as i loved Macavaneys call.
What a monumental moment. Loved how they put the questions to her at the end.
Hopefully in a couple of months, there will be another monumental moment for Indigenous aussies to continue on from this one on the up and up.
Thanks for sharing JF. Good find!

Cathy Freeman brought this country together way more and did more for FNP than this voice vote will ever do.

Thats your opinion based on your perspective. Alot of people think the opposite to you including me.
Still hoping you'll explain to me how the lives of indigenous Australians have improved in the last decade or so according to you and how you can align that to increased incarceration and a decrease in educational standards.
If you cant explain your simple point youre just blowing hot air with no substance, also known as trolling

When did I say the lives of indigenous Australians have improved in the last decade?

There is 100% more recognition in schools for FNP than when I was in school. More education about the people who were here long before us white folk.

And more education of our white Australian children surrounding FNP is exactly what is needed.

There has been a HUGE shift in white Australians celebrating Australia Day. White Australians now have a far greater understanding of the hurt this day causes FNP.

All these little things are helping bridge the gap.

The future generations will show this.

We don’t need a vote.

We are all Australian.

Anyway you did reply so thanks. But it's a pretty flawed reply to be honest.
I asked how the lives of Indigenous Australians have improved, and you've given me a list of how white Australians have become more accepting.
Finished with 'we don't need a vote, we are all Australian.'
Well yeah, maybe you don't need a vote burleigh, but it's not about you is it. It's about those that haven't had a voice for the duration of the time white settlers have lived here. And you'd rather keep that voice silenced because you have a percieved sense that all is fine with them based on nothing, even though it's clearly not.
I tried to think of the major improvements in Indigenous Australians lives in the last 15 years, and all ive got is they gave Adam Goodes a belated statue outside the SCG.
33 years after the song Treaty was released and no government has even come close to any type of reconciliation.
Sadly this isn't a treaty, but it's the first step in a process.
Careful burleigh. I like you, you stand up for what you think is right, but when people start aligning you with lowinfo dreaming, it's a slippery slope....you can't come back from that shit.

In my kids school on the Gold Coast they also have indigenous leaders elected every year. You don’t believe this is a step forward? You believe this is still silencing said indigenous? Welcome to country done at every assembly + the aboriginal flag flying proudly out the front of the school.

These are all steps forward in the last 10 years.

Just one very small example of how things have improved in the last 10 - 20 years.

It’s happened across every area.

We don’t need a voice. The voice is already happening

No argument from me on small steps to help white people embrace indigenous Australians.
But again, it's still within the framework of whiteman/western culture.
This is voice is about Indigenous Australians helping themselves.
I think that's the difference that we can't see eye to eye on, but good to have the discussion.
Even if, and it may only amount to this, but even if this voice turns out to be nothing more than symbolic, do you not have belief in the power of that symbolism for indigenous ozzies? After all, flying flags at schools and having welcome to countries, are also that. Acts of symbolism that we embrace.
If the voice is anything more than that, wouldn't it be a good thing anyway?
I'm still not sure what it is you're actually fearful of happening should the yes vote get up.

My wife will be happy to hear its only white fella that need to embrace things, she is always whinging about all these acknowledgement of being on country and welcome to country ceremonies. (mostly when on TV)

GuySmiley Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 8:13pm

Odious

harrycoopr Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 8:21pm

burleigh wrote:
harrycoopr wrote:
southernraw wrote:
burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
Jelly Flater wrote:
;)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6c5_e3u2624

Wow this ages so well with time. It's amazing 23 years later, i still get the chicken skin i got that night.
Great to see and hear it from a different perspective, as much as i loved Macavaneys call.
What a monumental moment. Loved how they put the questions to her at the end.
Hopefully in a couple of months, there will be another monumental moment for Indigenous aussies to continue on from this one on the up and up.
Thanks for sharing JF. Good find!

Cathy Freeman brought this country together way more and did more for FNP than this voice vote will ever do.

Thats your opinion based on your perspective. Alot of people think the opposite to you including me.
Still hoping you'll explain to me how the lives of indigenous Australians have improved in the last decade or so according to you and how you can align that to increased incarceration and a decrease in educational standards.
If you cant explain your simple point youre just blowing hot air with no substance, also known as trolling

When did I say the lives of indigenous Australians have improved in the last decade?

There is 100% more recognition in schools for FNP than when I was in school. More education about the people who were here long before us white folk.

And more education of our white Australian children surrounding FNP is exactly what is needed.

There has been a HUGE shift in white Australians celebrating Australia Day. White Australians now have a far greater understanding of the hurt this day causes FNP.

All these little things are helping bridge the gap.

The future generations will show this.

We don’t need a vote.

We are all Australian.

Anyway you did reply so thanks. But it's a pretty flawed reply to be honest.
I asked how the lives of Indigenous Australians have improved, and you've given me a list of how white Australians have become more accepting.
Finished with 'we don't need a vote, we are all Australian.'
Well yeah, maybe you don't need a vote burleigh, but it's not about you is it. It's about those that haven't had a voice for the duration of the time white settlers have lived here. And you'd rather keep that voice silenced because you have a percieved sense that all is fine with them based on nothing, even though it's clearly not.
I tried to think of the major improvements in Indigenous Australians lives in the last 15 years, and all ive got is they gave Adam Goodes a belated statue outside the SCG.
33 years after the song Treaty was released and no government has even come close to any type of reconciliation.
Sadly this isn't a treaty, but it's the first step in a process.
Careful burleigh. I like you, you stand up for what you think is right, but when people start aligning you with lowinfo dreaming, it's a slippery slope....you can't come back from that shit.

Well said SR. Even ol Hawkey was backing a Makarratta process in the 80s. I saw burley and indo personified on 4 corners last night thru a farmer doing it well who was bleating on about division and even had the audacity to say a voice would privilege a small group of ppl... privilege!!! A farmer whose ancestors "displaced" the original occupants! A farmer making good coin off "his" land.
You know, there's truth and lies, right and wrong... sometimes a grey zone. But in this case the Voice is right and the burley/indos of this world are wrong. It's as simple as that... plain to see.

How many beers now?

Pissweak burley... all ya proving maate is that I'm right.
When yr reduced to such drivel youve shown yr true colours and why yr a no voter. Absolutely no substance... just reactionary and unimaginative. Cheers.

harrycoopr Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 8:23pm

burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
Jelly Flater wrote:
;)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6c5_e3u2624

Wow this ages so well with time. It's amazing 23 years later, i still get the chicken skin i got that night.
Great to see and hear it from a different perspective, as much as i loved Macavaneys call.
What a monumental moment. Loved how they put the questions to her at the end.
Hopefully in a couple of months, there will be another monumental moment for Indigenous aussies to continue on from this one on the up and up.
Thanks for sharing JF. Good find!

Cathy Freeman brought this country together way more and did more for FNP than this voice vote will ever do.

Thats your opinion based on your perspective. Alot of people think the opposite to you including me.
Still hoping you'll explain to me how the lives of indigenous Australians have improved in the last decade or so according to you and how you can align that to increased incarceration and a decrease in educational standards.
If you cant explain your simple point youre just blowing hot air with no substance, also known as trolling

When did I say the lives of indigenous Australians have improved in the last decade?

There is 100% more recognition in schools for FNP than when I was in school. More education about the people who were here long before us white folk.

And more education of our white Australian children surrounding FNP is exactly what is needed.

There has been a HUGE shift in white Australians celebrating Australia Day. White Australians now have a far greater understanding of the hurt this day causes FNP.

All these little things are helping bridge the gap.

The future generations will show this.

We don’t need a vote.

We are all Australian.

Anyway you did reply so thanks. But it's a pretty flawed reply to be honest.
I asked how the lives of Indigenous Australians have improved, and you've given me a list of how white Australians have become more accepting.
Finished with 'we don't need a vote, we are all Australian.'
Well yeah, maybe you don't need a vote burleigh, but it's not about you is it. It's about those that haven't had a voice for the duration of the time white settlers have lived here. And you'd rather keep that voice silenced because you have a percieved sense that all is fine with them based on nothing, even though it's clearly not.
I tried to think of the major improvements in Indigenous Australians lives in the last 15 years, and all ive got is they gave Adam Goodes a belated statue outside the SCG.
33 years after the song Treaty was released and no government has even come close to any type of reconciliation.
Sadly this isn't a treaty, but it's the first step in a process.
Careful burleigh. I like you, you stand up for what you think is right, but when people start aligning you with lowinfo dreaming, it's a slippery slope....you can't come back from that shit.

In my kids school on the Gold Coast they also have indigenous leaders elected every year. You don’t believe this is a step forward? You believe this is still silencing said indigenous? Welcome to country done at every assembly + the aboriginal flag flying proudly out the front of the school.

These are all steps forward in the last 10 years.

Just one very small example of how things have improved in the last 10 - 20 years.

It’s happened across every area.

We don’t need a voice. The voice is already happening

So why not make it official in the nation's "founding " document... geez yr stupid burley.

burleigh Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 8:32pm

harrycoopr wrote:
burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
burleigh wrote:
southernraw wrote:
Jelly Flater wrote:
;)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6c5_e3u2624

Wow this ages so well with time. It's amazing 23 years later, i still get the chicken skin i got that night.
Great to see and hear it from a different perspective, as much as i loved Macavaneys call.
What a monumental moment. Loved how they put the questions to her at the end.
Hopefully in a couple of months, there will be another monumental moment for Indigenous aussies to continue on from this one on the up and up.
Thanks for sharing JF. Good find!

Cathy Freeman brought this country together way more and did more for FNP than this voice vote will ever do.

Thats your opinion based on your perspective. Alot of people think the opposite to you including me.
Still hoping you'll explain to me how the lives of indigenous Australians have improved in the last decade or so according to you and how you can align that to increased incarceration and a decrease in educational standards.
If you cant explain your simple point youre just blowing hot air with no substance, also known as trolling

When did I say the lives of indigenous Australians have improved in the last decade?

There is 100% more recognition in schools for FNP than when I was in school. More education about the people who were here long before us white folk.

And more education of our white Australian children surrounding FNP is exactly what is needed.

There has been a HUGE shift in white Australians celebrating Australia Day. White Australians now have a far greater understanding of the hurt this day causes FNP.

All these little things are helping bridge the gap.

The future generations will show this.

We don’t need a vote.

We are all Australian.

Anyway you did reply so thanks. But it's a pretty flawed reply to be honest.
I asked how the lives of Indigenous Australians have improved, and you've given me a list of how white Australians have become more accepting.
Finished with 'we don't need a vote, we are all Australian.'
Well yeah, maybe you don't need a vote burleigh, but it's not about you is it. It's about those that haven't had a voice for the duration of the time white settlers have lived here. And you'd rather keep that voice silenced because you have a percieved sense that all is fine with them based on nothing, even though it's clearly not.
I tried to think of the major improvements in Indigenous Australians lives in the last 15 years, and all ive got is they gave Adam Goodes a belated statue outside the SCG.
33 years after the song Treaty was released and no government has even come close to any type of reconciliation.
Sadly this isn't a treaty, but it's the first step in a process.
Careful burleigh. I like you, you stand up for what you think is right, but when people start aligning you with lowinfo dreaming, it's a slippery slope....you can't come back from that shit.

In my kids school on the Gold Coast they also have indigenous leaders elected every year. You don’t believe this is a step forward? You believe this is still silencing said indigenous? Welcome to country done at every assembly + the aboriginal flag flying proudly out the front of the school.

These are all steps forward in the last 10 years.

Just one very small example of how things have improved in the last 10 - 20 years.

It’s happened across every area.

We don’t need a voice. The voice is already happening

So why not make it official in the nation's "founding " document... geez yr stupid burley.

Make it official? Ummmmm I’m pretty sure it’s offical already champion

Not to mention in the office foyer each wall dedicated to FN students past and current. A photo and a short story about their country.

But these people are silenced apparently.

I’m voting no simply because I do not trust the government. Nothing else

truebluebasher Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 8:42pm

Only Dutto's Mob have Mandated How 2 Vote in compulsory Reffo.
Now Dutto wants his & only his Mandated Reffo called off.
Why! Coz he says it's confusing everyone but his mandated Purple People.

Dutto's Plan B...
Lose or Boycott...Dutto is going to the Reffo Polls again.
Dutto refuses to share his secret Reffo Question
Dutto refuses to share Reffo Poll Date to the nearest Decade
Dutto refuses to tell his own Party about his secret Reffo.
His own Aboriginal Minister has not yet supported it...
[NP] Say Dutto's Magical Reffo is at or after Next Election...maybe...maybe not! (Changes!)

Dutto's Reffo policy is dumbfounding Green Ant's Purple People...('Our BRAINZ Hurt!')
Albo's Reffo has a Question and a date...surely that outsmarts Dutto's Air Head Brain Fart!

ONE OF US Queue grows Longer as Purple People gotta vote for some shit.
Fair Enough! Dutto's Lucky Dip is full of good shit! (Masses can't resist an offer so true!)
Green Ant's Purple People : "Ya mean if we vote for shit all we get fuck all change...Sorted!"
Polls Skyrocket in flight afternoon delight.

But just hang on a bit...there's more to this than meets the eye!

Is Dutto silently campaigning for [YES] 23 Win.
Sounds absurd!
Truth is that Dutto has never once said he'll overturn the [YES] decision.
Dutto never once committed to hold another Reffo if [Yes] gets up! (True!)
Meaning Dutto is most supportive of a [YES] Vote & as such will 100% joyfully Govern with Voice!
Otherwise if he wasn't 100% supportive he'd be calling for a 2nd Reffo if [YES] gets up...Yes!
Where & when has Dutto ever once committed to a [YES] Win resulting in a 2nd Reffo!..Never!

See! Told ya! Dutto is secretly campaigning for a [YES] Vote as it absolves him of the same Poll fate!
Can any here seriously believe not Howard not Albo but most disliked Pollie pulls off a [Yes] Win
Grow Up & Get real! Aussies will equally spit on Dutto's 10,000 worded Reffo Tombstone!
He too will get flushed down the Tube & out the Wazoo!

Recap
[AEC Voice Reffo Awards] Winner Dutto!
*Dutto is only Pollie > "Mandating" Voice Nazi Party Platform [Vote No] or We'll cut yer Dic Pics off.
*Dutto waits for $450m spend & calls it off...Promising another $500m Reffo for the Green Ant Bully!
*Dutto is the only Pollie Mandating to Vote [No]...then cancel then a bonus $500m Voice Lucky Dip!
*Dutto mandates a Lucky Dip Reffo sometime during the next Migration Wave...maybe!
Don't blow out yer candles or sing Happy Birthday until [L] Voldemort has clicked his heels...

Green Ant Bully Records : (AA Side) Voldemort The Purple People Eater!

southernraw Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 8:45pm

Burleigh how do you propose meaningful changes in anything can ever happen if not via this one and only option??

burleigh Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 8:56pm

southernraw wrote:
Burleigh how do you propose meaningful changes in anything can ever happen if not via this one and only option??

C’mon mate, meaningful changes are happening and have been happening for years starting with our children.

You need to drop the doom and gloom “last chance” bullshit.

Changes will continue to happen without a yes vote.

Open your eyes.

indo-dreaming Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 9:32pm

It's crazy how those around the voice be it Marcia, Noel, Albo, Linda, Thomas Mayo, Teela Reid just keep on giving these gifts to the No vote, time after time after time.

They are just so bitter and hateful, they cant help themselves, Marcia has gone and put her foot in it again.

southernraw Tuesday, 12 Sep 2023 at 9:42pm

Burleigh, I get your stance but i think we're looking at the same landscape from two very different perspectives.
I've put alot of time into learning over the last 10 years on this particular subject due to some personal experiences close to me that weren't great.
Now is a good time to listen and learn i reckon for everyone.
And get out there. Go and feel the real Australia. The one beyond the Great Dividing ranges.
It's impossible to not feel the energy of the original inhabitants all through the land, especially up north.
They are as much a part of this country as this country is a part of them. We are the new arrivals.
There is a greenlight from the government to allow them to have some of their pride and sovereignty returned to them. Some ownership of their great spirits! Happiness!! Imagine the good that can come out of that.
On that note, i'll sign out from this debate for a while.
Cheers.

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