The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

bluediamond started the topic in

Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

southernraw Sunday, 13 Aug 2023 at 1:34pm

Love that one JF.

Jelly Flater Sunday, 13 Aug 2023 at 1:37pm

;)

https://m.

Supafreak Sunday, 13 Aug 2023 at 2:53pm

John Hewson
Missed Voice messages. https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/comment/topic/2023/08/11/missed-voic... Overall, I have been disappointed and in many instances appalled by the nature of the public discourse on this issue. I had hoped for better. I am a conservative and I will be voting “Yes”. Despite the recent polls I remain optimistic and believe in the inherent goodness and common sense of the Australian people, most of whom I expect in the end will vote in the national interest and not be swayed by the noise of the “No” campaign.

Obviously, I am the product of a society that favoured what I am, a white male. Although I have made a considerable effort to see these issues firsthand, I don’t pretend to fully understand the disadvantage faced on so many fronts by Indigenous people.

But I do understand, absolutely, their need to be heard. The need to believe their children will get a fair go, their disadvantage addressed and their history acknowledged and accurately taught to future generations. And most importantly that it will be passed on as they wish it to be expressed – in their own words, with their Voice.

andy-mac Sunday, 13 Aug 2023 at 3:17pm

Supafreak wrote:
John Hewson
Missed Voice messages. https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/comment/topic/2023/08/11/missed-voic... Overall, I have been disappointed and in many instances appalled by the nature of the public discourse on this issue. I had hoped for better. I am a conservative and I will be voting “Yes”. Despite the recent polls I remain optimistic and believe in the inherent goodness and common sense of the Australian people, most of whom I expect in the end will vote in the national interest and not be swayed by the noise of the “No” campaign.

Obviously, I am the product of a society that favoured what I am, a white male. Although I have made a considerable effort to see these issues firsthand, I don’t pretend to fully understand the disadvantage faced on so many fronts by Indigenous people.

But I do understand, absolutely, their need to be heard. The need to believe their children will get a fair go, their disadvantage addressed and their history acknowledged and accurately taught to future generations. And most importantly that it will be passed on as they wish it to be expressed – in their own words, with their Voice.

John Hewson always came across as a decent human being.
He must be appalled at what his party has sunk to...

indo-dreaming Sunday, 13 Aug 2023 at 3:23pm

Supafreak wrote:
https://x.com/tiny_watermelon/status/1690498675699863553?s=46&t=5RczxwAf.... @indo , did you post this sky news story ?

Yep despite the fact that people always think Sky news or Murdoch press only pushes one narrative Chris kenny is pro voice and post some pretty embarrassing video's, especially on the whole 1 page or 26 page debacle.

End of the day despite the obvious flaws in the structure of the voice, it's not really the voice thats the problem its the cementing of it in the constitution thats the big problem.

Lets just hope Australians say hands off the constitution.

Jelly Flater Sunday, 13 Aug 2023 at 3:32pm

Haha

Trying to point out ppl posting ‘pretty embarrassing videos’…
You don’t have anything in common there ;)

What is so good about the Aussie constitution exactly ?
What is the problem with it being altered or changed ?
Do you have the constitution up on your wall and praise it as some all encompassing representation that is somehow perfect or infallible ?
Where is the ‘big’ problem other than in your imaginary conceptual interpretation ?
How exactly have you arrived at such conclusions without considering that you may actually be part of a problem ?
Is it a possibility you have problems and all this stuff you’re going on about may be exacerbating them ?

;)

basesix Sunday, 13 Aug 2023 at 3:42pm

yeh, JF, I read somewhere that the constitution is DESIGNED to be able to be changed.. based on the evolving needs of Australia, through, like, a referendum or something..?

overthefalls Sunday, 13 Aug 2023 at 3:49pm

I admire John Hewson’s optimism about “the inherent goodness and common sense of the Australian people”. However, I think the issue has been so obfuscated and politicised by the usual suspects that there is the possibility that too many conservative Australians will err on the side of caution and vote NO. I wonder what they will tell their children and grandchildren in years to come. They will inevitably be judged as being on the wrong side of history.

Supafreak Sunday, 13 Aug 2023 at 5:38pm

andy-mac wrote:
Supafreak wrote:
John Hewson
Missed Voice messages. https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/comment/topic/2023/08/11/missed-voic... Overall, I have been disappointed and in many instances appalled by the nature of the public discourse on this issue. I had hoped for better. I am a conservative and I will be voting “Yes”. Despite the recent polls I remain optimistic and believe in the inherent goodness and common sense of the Australian people, most of whom I expect in the end will vote in the national interest and not be swayed by the noise of the “No” campaign.

Obviously, I am the product of a society that favoured what I am, a white male. Although I have made a considerable effort to see these issues firsthand, I don’t pretend to fully understand the disadvantage faced on so many fronts by Indigenous people.

But I do understand, absolutely, their need to be heard. The need to believe their children will get a fair go, their disadvantage addressed and their history acknowledged and accurately taught to future generations. And most importantly that it will be passed on as they wish it to be expressed – in their own words, with their Voice.

John Hewson always came across as a decent human being.
He must be appalled at what his party has sunk to...

https://x.com/skyowl_/status/1687446306590277634?s=46&t=5RczxwAfzXe7hKRZ...

andy-mac Sunday, 13 Aug 2023 at 5:40pm

Supafreak wrote:
andy-mac wrote:
Supafreak wrote:
John Hewson
Missed Voice messages. https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/comment/topic/2023/08/11/missed-voic... Overall, I have been disappointed and in many instances appalled by the nature of the public discourse on this issue. I had hoped for better. I am a conservative and I will be voting “Yes”. Despite the recent polls I remain optimistic and believe in the inherent goodness and common sense of the Australian people, most of whom I expect in the end will vote in the national interest and not be swayed by the noise of the “No” campaign.

Obviously, I am the product of a society that favoured what I am, a white male. Although I have made a considerable effort to see these issues firsthand, I don’t pretend to fully understand the disadvantage faced on so many fronts by Indigenous people.

But I do understand, absolutely, their need to be heard. The need to believe their children will get a fair go, their disadvantage addressed and their history acknowledged and accurately taught to future generations. And most importantly that it will be passed on as they wish it to be expressed – in their own words, with their Voice.

John Hewson always came across as a decent human being.
He must be appalled at what his party has sunk to...

https://x.com/skyowl_/status/1687446306590277634?s=46&t=5RczxwAfzXe7hKRZ...

Haha that cracked me up ...

goofyfoot Sunday, 13 Aug 2023 at 5:56pm

Before the Voice, no one would have had the slightest clue what was in the constitution or knew anything about it.
Now people are SO worried about it.
For no reason at all.
Indo I seriously think you need to have a spell from this forum, you are all over it all day every day. It’s bordering on being un-healthy.
I love the Indonesian knowledge you contribute every now and then but you need to let this other shit go and have a breather. You’re smothering the place.

basesix Sunday, 13 Aug 2023 at 6:45pm

some great celebrations of indigenous music, at the National Indigenous Music Awards - what a lucky country we live in! I'm with you Supa..
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-08-13/nt-nimas-winners-budjerah/102718162

As AW said, such a generous people, with hearts and spirits we should all admire:

&t=19s
Gonna be such a privilege to smile and go 'Yup!' at the referendum.
If there are a few curmudgeons, (the 'rankled' as WS might say) (who have 'obfuscated' the issue as overthefalls might say), I'll just smile at them and think how happy John Swarzwelder would be that so many Victorian-era words have re-entered the lexicon, to describe those who do not have the generosity of spirit that Aussies are known for.

AlfredWallace Sunday, 13 Aug 2023 at 6:44pm

basesix wrote:
some great celebrations of indigenous music, at the National Indigenous Awards - what a lucky country we live in! I'm with you supa..
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-08-13/nt-nimas-winners-budjerah/102718162

As AW said, such a generous people, with hearts and spirits we should all admire:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CXovCAj1u4&t=19s
Gonna be such a privilege to smile and go 'Yup!' at the referendum.
If there are a few curmudgeons, (the 'rankled' as WS might say) (who have 'obfuscated' the issue as overthefalls might say), I'll just smile at them and think how happy John Swarzwelder would be that so many Victorian-era words have re-entered the lexicon, to describe those who do not have the generosity of spirit that Aussies are known for.

Basesix. Hi. How are you? Nice right up there.

Did you receive the parcel I sent you ? AW.

basesix Sunday, 13 Aug 2023 at 6:48pm

Cheers, AW, I am heading to the post office tomorrow! Can't wait : )

AlfredWallace Sunday, 13 Aug 2023 at 6:51pm

basesix wrote:
Cheers, AW, I am heading to the post office tomorrow! Can't wait : )

Basesix. Good one, I’m sure you’ll enjoy. AW.

indo-dreaming Sunday, 13 Aug 2023 at 7:21pm

goofyfoot wrote:
Before the Voice, no one would have had the slightest clue what was in the constitution or knew anything about it.
Now people are SO worried about it.
For no reason at all.
Indo I seriously think you need to have a spell from this forum, you are all over it all day every day. It’s bordering on being un-healthy.
I love the Indonesian knowledge you contribute every now and then but you need to let this other shit go and have a breather. You’re smothering the place.

Like i said this past week ive been home sick and bored so posted a lot, going to Indo embassy tomorrow, still fluey but got to go back to work Tue so less post this week.

But two things to note any good conversation or debate generally has a 50/50 mix of views, here there is a very heavy progressive representation, so i yes i have to step up a bit more and keep people updated on the aspects that they might miss in their bubbles.

Not that i expect to change anyones mind, but its still good to get things out there.

Secondly, a hell of a lot of my post are replies to others and i also ignore many aimed at me, if people stopped replying to me and my post there would be far less post from me.

BTW. With all respect i think thats pretty ignorant thing to say "No reason at all" you need to go read all the official docs i posted the other day, or see what people like "Thomas Mayo" have said in the past when nothing to lose, or even various legal experts, if your still cool with it all at that point, fine, but the reason the yes vote is now below 50% is because people have genuine concerns and those concerns are based not so much on what the no camp says, but more what the no camp highlights about what the Yes camp have said or not being overly transparent about.

Something else to note, while i might post a lot in a social/political thread like this when its hot, i also regularly post in non political special interest threads and interact with people in a positive way whom i hold opposite political/social ideologies with, unlike some who seem to think if you dont share political or social views you need to view others as the enemy or something silly and attack them no matter the topic.

basesix Sunday, 13 Aug 2023 at 7:11pm

I agree, fear is a killer of all things. And sad as hell, when so many of us live is such relative privilege.

basesix Sunday, 13 Aug 2023 at 7:25pm

Music Outback champ Mal Webb with Kylie Morrigan, singing a gentle song Mal created with Seraphina Presley, Seini Taumoepeau and Ti Tree community. Details and lyrics and links in the youtube comments..

basesix Sunday, 13 Aug 2023 at 10:46pm

Siksika as. What lovely dudes:

san Guine Monday, 14 Aug 2023 at 10:05am

basesix wrote:
yeh, JF, I read somewhere that the constitution is DESIGNED to be able to be changed.. based on the evolving needs of Australia, through, like, a referendum or something..?

True that.
There is also provision for WA to secede and NZ accede to the federation

I focus Monday, 14 Aug 2023 at 3:40pm

So the Voice wording written up and overseen by Conservative Chief Justice and Justices of the high court, conservative constitutional experts and Coalition MP's is rejected by the Coalition leader who supports recognition and a Voice.

Anyone spot the politics here...

truebluebasher Monday, 14 Aug 2023 at 5:48pm

Vax mandate for Cruises
Voice boycott for Qantas
https://www.9news.com.au/national/qantas-unveils-yes-logo-in-support-of-...
Media conference ALBO : "I tried my best to sell Joycey the NO vote!"
Joycey : "We'll be mandating [yes] Pre flight Polls!"
MSM : "Wow! MASSIVE Setback for the [Yes] campaign!"... Polls Plummet!
Platinum Frequent Flyer : "I'll Never Fly Qantas Again...NEVER!"
https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/voice-to-parliament/qantas-com...

adam12 Tuesday, 15 Aug 2023 at 9:08am

Warren Mundine supports treaty.

"No campaigner Warren Mundine responds to comments he made in 2017 supporting ‘a voice’

Warren Mundine, who leads the Indigenous voice to parliament no campaign group Recognise a Better Way, just spoke on ABC RN.

He was responding to comments he’d made in 2017 arguing that Indigenous people “need to have a voice” backed by “constitutional law”.

Responding, Mundine said the entire context of his comments shows he was “actually talking about something which I’ve always supported, which was treaties”.

When I talk about treaties, when I talk about constitutional recognition, it is in regard to treaties that are signed between the commonwealth government and First Nations peoples.

… I believe in treaties between the First Nations and the commonwealth and at that, and I put it in that context".
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/live/2023/aug/15/australia-ne...

Thoughts and prayers go out to Indo Dreaming. His hero, Uncle Warren, appears to undermine his whole raison d'etre, with this admission. Sad.

Supafreak Tuesday, 15 Aug 2023 at 8:54pm

Will the real wazza come out ? https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/aug/15/warren-mundine-sa...

indo-dreaming Tuesday, 15 Aug 2023 at 9:09pm

Notice how the yes camp just try to defame their opponent's and just label no voters all types of names?

Terrible strategy.

Anyway from last week, Lidia wasn't happy.

Clearly some Yes voters trying to screw her over

"EXCLUSIVE: Yes23 deny responsibility for URL trick redirecting users to their website

Movement which is being used to redirect visitors to the Yes23 website.

The misleading URL, blacksovereignmovement.com was registered on August 4 of this year.

The website URL redirects users to the Yes23 campaign's website instead of the Blak Sovereign Movement's Website, blaksovereignmovement.com, which is spelled without a 'c'.

"The campaign was not responsible for the purchase of the domain name," a Yes23 spokesperson told National Indigenous Times.

After formalising its position in July, the Movement, headed by independent Senator Lidia Thorpe is staunchly opposed to the Voice to Parliament whereas Yes23 is the major pro-Voice campaign body in the country."

https://nit.com.au/07-08-2023/7116/yes23-deny-responsibility-for-url-tri...

basesix Tuesday, 15 Aug 2023 at 10:13pm

Jelly Flater Tuesday, 15 Aug 2023 at 10:15pm

https://m.

&pp=ygUIZ3VycnVtdWw%3D

southernraw Tuesday, 15 Aug 2023 at 11:34pm

Nice one JF.
Something to tie in with the vid you just posted..

frog Wednesday, 16 Aug 2023 at 12:11am

Albo states in a radio interview that he has not read beyond the first page of the statement and then says: "why would I?" as though properly understanding the statement and context is not important.

More than slightly mind boggling in terms of his professionalism as a leader and commitment to an important issue for the country and for FNP.

Shows him up as a total light weight as a leader and a superficial advocate for FNP. I am embarrassed to have him as our PM after that.

FNP and the authors of the statement would be pretty disappointed to hear that flippant remark for multiple reasons. Very disrespectful of years of work and centuries of pain.

Wearing a t shirt is not enough Albo you need to understand issues fully and then explain them to people.

A pattern emerging - AUKUS was a 24 hour decision and he was proud of doing that so fast. Maybe he skipped the PowerPoint presso and just read the cover page on that one?

AlfredWallace Wednesday, 16 Aug 2023 at 11:35am

frog wrote:
Albo states in a radio interview that he has not read beyond the first page of the statement and then says: "why would I?" as though properly understanding the statement and context is not important.

More than slightly mind boggling in terms of his professionalism as a leader and commitment to an important issue for the country and for FNP.

Shows him up as a total light weight as a leader and a superficial advocate for FNP. I am embarrassed to have him as our PM after that.

FNP and the authors of the statement would be pretty disappointed to hear that flippant remark for multiple reasons. Very disrespectful of years of work and centuries of pain.

Wearing a t shirt is not enough Albo you need to understand issues fully and then explain them to people.

A pattern emerging - AUKUS was a 24 hour decision and he was proud of doing that so fast. Maybe he skipped the PowerPoint presso and just read the cover page on that one?

Frog, Hi. Your opinion, we’ve all got one. I think you are being a little harsh. Why would he need to read it, I’m in a similar boat, I’ve ready none of it or nothing about it, and I always like to stay informed or be informed, but on this occasion, we ALL know what the right thing to do is. If you have a heart that is. AW

indo-dreaming Wednesday, 16 Aug 2023 at 12:02pm

frog wrote:
Albo states in a radio interview that he has not read beyond the first page of the statement and then says: "why would I?" as though properly understanding the statement and context is not important.

More than slightly mind boggling in terms of his professionalism as a leader and commitment to an important issue for the country and for FNP.

Shows him up as a total light weight as a leader and a superficial advocate for FNP. I am embarrassed to have him as our PM after that.

FNP and the authors of the statement would be pretty disappointed to hear that flippant remark for multiple reasons. Very disrespectful of years of work and centuries of pain.

Wearing a t shirt is not enough Albo you need to understand issues fully and then explain them to people.

A pattern emerging - AUKUS was a 24 hour decision and he was proud of doing that so fast. Maybe he skipped the PowerPoint presso and just read the cover page on that one?

OMG you are right.

‘Why would I?’: Anthony Albanese ‘hasn’t read’ additional 25 pages of Uluru Statement material

Anthony Albanese says he hasn’t read the additional 25 pages of material attached to the Uluru Statement, asking “Why would I?”

https://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/australian-economy/why-would-i-a...

WTF????....i cant believe he even openly admits this.

This is mind blowing, how on earth can you stand behind something and sell something that you havent even read????

He literally said on his election speech, he will implement the Uluru statement of the heart in full.

No matter what you want to call all 26 pages, the 25 pages have far more information and details than the first page .

No body should vote in this referendum without reading all pages, it will take you a few minutes max.

And ideally if you want to make a proper informed decision, you should at least skim through the UOTH report and minutes from meetings.

basesix Wednesday, 16 Aug 2023 at 12:28pm

That's the size of it AW. FNPs have been asked what they would like to do about a problem that affects them daily, and the entire world is aware of. And they have asked for something. Now they have to watch the 97% vote on it.

I think asking for something 'big' is already a step forward. I had a colleague who was working in Alice, and helping to address the problem of Aboriginal people living in Todd River's dried creekbeds.. cars were hooning through there at night, it was very dangerous. What did they want when offered an open chequebook? After a week of talking amongst themselves they came back and asked if they could have a padlock on the access gate to stop the cars.

(interesting, after Albo making a ham-fisted point, people that were railing about the importance of 'hidden pages' are now saying, in condemning the Albo sound-bite, the pages just take a few minutes to flick through)

basesix Wednesday, 16 Aug 2023 at 12:17pm

Jelly Flater wrote:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7lmZXAdSMQI&pp=ygUIZ3VycnVtdWw%3D

stunet Wednesday, 16 Aug 2023 at 12:24pm

frog wrote:
Albo states in a radio interview that he has not read beyond the first page of the statement and then says: "why would I?" as though properly understanding the statement and context is not important.

More than slightly mind boggling in terms of his professionalism as a leader and commitment to an important issue for the country and for FNP.

Shows him up as a total light weight as a leader and a superficial advocate for FNP. I am embarrassed to have him as our PM after that.

FNP and the authors of the statement would be pretty disappointed to hear that flippant remark for multiple reasons. Very disrespectful of years of work and centuries of pain.

Wearing a t shirt is not enough Albo you need to understand issues fully and then explain them to people.

A pattern emerging - AUKUS was a 24 hour decision and he was proud of doing that so fast. Maybe he skipped the PowerPoint presso and just read the cover page on that one?

Well, well...look who gets their news from Sky. You didn't listen to the interview did you? Just how Credlin and co spun it.

'The Statement' is one page. The other pages are dialogues and working notes. Albo dismissed those as a theatrical way of showing they don't need to be read or understood to understand The Statement.

frog Wednesday, 16 Aug 2023 at 1:01pm

On reflection, it still remains one of the more surprising things I have ever heard a PM say on a major policy issue. Very unprofessional.

To have not wanted to get too tangled up in speculative details on future paths for The Voice in the public debate was more understandable as an approach (but not what i would support) and I thought that was what Albo was doing up until yesterday.

But to not even bother to read the full statement is slapdash at best. It would have taken him 5 minutes and benefited his case - he could have spoken with more authority and credibility.

I don't think it is a defensible position for the PM from multiple perspectives.

I browse lots of news sources. Always will. A key interest of mine is financial / market stuff. Only reading one perspective or source in that area will lose you a lot of money.

seeds Wednesday, 16 Aug 2023 at 1:06pm

Maybe, some need to look up the meaning of the word, statement. I’m pretty sure it’s a short and succinct sort of thing.

stunet Wednesday, 16 Aug 2023 at 1:12pm

frog wrote:
On reflection, it still remains one of the more surprising things I have ever heard a PM say on a major policy issue. Very unprofessional.

To have not wanted to get too tangled up in speculative details on future paths for The Voice in the public debate was more understandable as an approach (but not what i would support) and I thought that was what Albo was doing up until yesterday.

But to not even bother to read the full statement is slapdash at best. It would have taken him 5 minutes and benefited his case - he could have spoken with more authority and credibility.

I don't think it is a defensible position for the PM from multiple perspectives.

I browse lots of news sources. Always will. A key interest of mine is financial / market stuff. Only reading one perspective or source in that area will lose you a lot of money.

For all we know he has read them, I assume he would've, but, as I said, it was a theatrical dismissal to show that people didn't need to read them to understand the Statement.

Capiche?

The most ironic thing is that it was in the midst of a discussion about the Coalition and certain media outlets publishing stories in bad faith. Well, they do, they did, and those bad faith stories are being given oxygen such as what you're doing.

seeds Wednesday, 16 Aug 2023 at 1:14pm

Gotta back you there Frog. Labor is hopeless at counteracting the conservative politicians and medias lies. There’s no fire in the belly. No Aussie mongrel anymore. Nothing that will be so cutting and brutally honest that it can’t be denied.

frog Wednesday, 16 Aug 2023 at 1:46pm

Stu
I don't think it was theatrical as delivered in the interview. It was presented as a statement of fact. And it tied in with his vague description of the extra pages content in the lead up to his comment which at the time I thought mixed up the summary 20 pages with the deeper consultation paper.

I have read both. He seemed to be struggling to describe them.

It may have been a lie as you suggested - if so he has to carry and repeat that lie through a long campaign - what does that say to us all?

In no way can the statement be helpful to the yes case or to the credibility of Albo on this or other issues.

seeds Wednesday, 16 Aug 2023 at 1:52pm

Yes or No!!, Frog. I’m struggling to give your posts context.

sypkan Wednesday, 16 Aug 2023 at 2:44pm

mindblowing if he hasn't read it

disappointing if he has read it

blackfellas'd do better to cut him free about now...

stunet Wednesday, 16 Aug 2023 at 2:48pm

^^^ See how the media works?

GuySmiley Wednesday, 16 Aug 2023 at 3:04pm

Sypkan splitter arse misses again

old-dog Wednesday, 16 Aug 2023 at 3:19pm

Yes or no? Left or right? Apologist or redneck? The truth lies somewhere in between.
It shows how there can be two completely opposite sides to a story and both are wrong.

old-dog Wednesday, 16 Aug 2023 at 3:22pm

If Albo thought this would unite the country I think he may have misread the room, as usual.

andy-mac Wednesday, 16 Aug 2023 at 3:25pm

old-dog wrote:
Yes or no? Left or right? Apologist or redneck? The truth lies somewhere in between.
It shows how there can be two completely opposite sides to a story and both are wrong.

Cannot have a Jing without a Yang....

indo-dreaming Wednesday, 16 Aug 2023 at 3:51pm

Theres only a few scenarios.

1. Albo really didnt know the USFTH was more than one page and never read the rest and is telling the truth, this is pretty much impossible to believe, but if true should be of real concern to all Australian's.

2. Albo really didnt know the USFTH was more than one page and once talk came up about the other pages he read them, and just lied he hasnt read them for some reason, maybe he doesn't want to discuss whats in the other pages.

3. Albo knew long ago there was 25 other pages and read them long ago, but was hoping that they never become an issue.

IMHO number three is the most likely scenario, i think coming into things he thought poll numbers support would stay as high as what they were this time last year, and he could just coast through keeping things as simple and detail free as possible and things like this wouldn't really matter.

sypkan Wednesday, 16 Aug 2023 at 3:58pm

whatever ya reckon...

albo really is terrible campaigner

at the head of a terrible a campaign

not just me saying it, an 'abysmal campaign' according to that redbridge dude - a former labor strategist and yes voter

but yeh... sky news or sumthin...

basesix Wednesday, 16 Aug 2023 at 4:00pm

'Albo' is not interesting.

Supafreak Thursday, 17 Aug 2023 at 6:22am

https://www.history.com/news/dna-study-finds-aboriginal-australians-worl.... DNA Study Finds Aboriginal Australians World’s Oldest Civilization

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