The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

bluediamond started the topic in

Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

indo-dreaming Wednesday, 9 Aug 2023 at 9:35am

frog wrote:
This document details the records of first nations people regional meetings and referendum dialogue that informed the eventual Uluru statement from the heart

https://www.niaa.gov.au/sites/default/files/foi-log/foi-2223-016.pdf

It summarises the many concerns of the participants and the hopes and ambitions for the future. It does so at a level of detail that helps one understand what may be the motivation and plans that will come next from the perspective and words of current and future leaders of The Voice far more than the one page or 26 page summaries can do.

Are you sure these are the same document's?

I read through a lot of it yesterday but didnt want to say it was the same docs until i 100% knew.

frog Wednesday, 9 Aug 2023 at 9:46am

Maybe it is the same or maybe there are various versions but I doubt that. It contains the record of consultation and dialogue (the voices) - that is what is important for understanding context and the future.

sypkan Wednesday, 9 Aug 2023 at 9:56am

"...You are doing a stellar job of character assassinating your self. At least you trying to control your abusive outbursts with me, not doing so well with others though..."

dude, you couldn't be more wrong

again...

there is no controlling abusive outburts on here at all ...at my end...

I see humour in all the posts on here, quite often self depricating humour...

like to think others do to...

but it has become apparent that is not the case

blowin was hilarious to me, uplift and herc too

but it seems many people actually don't see the humour, don't play the humour, and many people do not do self depricating at all either, too much ego, and it is all about crushing your opponent, i was misreading the jovial nature I wanted to see

which is why I chose the hole big buds, but you drew me into your vortex...

again...

this is the problem, you come here to win rather than educate and engage, you're whole goal is to belittle and destroy rather than find middle workable ground and solutions

good for you, you have your convictions, but Im not interested, too much negative shit for me

and this brings me to the voice and 'the details' ...labor came to the party, 18 months ago, with a mission from their idiotic advisors to not go into details - that was their starting point, the whole agenda, the whole goal- to spend the whole campaign, 18 months, avoiding all the stuff that people actually want to know about, whilst trying to just ride the 80% poll numbers

political suicide, super dumb, arrogant, and just plain contempt for ordinary voters from my perspective

seems to be unravelling now, which I didn't really want to see happen. but it is hard for me to care when I see how labor have behaved throughout this whole campaign

I don't have a horse in this race, so you are totally wrong there

again...

Im just here to comment on the day to day politics and how contemporary politics has lost the plot

the big money, the lobby groups, the talking points, the avoid the question at all costs, the avoid the word at all costs, the misinforation, the disinformation, the outrageous projection of both, the 'fact' checkers....

the whole kit and caboodle...

it is broken beyond repair, but labor thought they could keep up an extreme version of the game for 18 months... dumb...

they could have shut dutton and co down in no time if they played it diferently, if they played 'in good faith'

instead of the most miserable, the most cynical, the most manipulative version of narrative control at all costs politics some seem to have adopted so wholeheartedly

sorry, your litle pet projects at the middle of it big buds, but that's my only interest in the whole thing

we done now? hope so....

chat with rooftops, he could offer you hours of toying and toil... maybe...

sypkan Wednesday, 9 Aug 2023 at 9:49am

andy-mac wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
sypkan wrote:
awww god albo...

really? ...that's how you're going to deal with this?

someone get this man some new advisors!

https://twitter.com/therealrukshan/status/1688781051219640321

Its kind of crazy that we are at this point where we really dont know if the Uluru statement is one page or much more.

Even before all this coming up i was under the understanding the one page was more the condensed thing, but obviously wasn't the detail.

I listened to a left wing 7am podcast the other day and the indigenous guy was explaining how his mother wasn't convinced but went and read all the pages in full which he was blown away by as was a lot to take in, she then agreed on it all. (i will try to find the episode)

There seems to be decent evidence its not just minutes or notes from the creation of the Uluru statement but more than that.

Is that the Peta Credlin that admitted that the whole carbon tax campaign was a lie and done for purely political bastardry?

And here is a lefty source.

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/carbon-tax-just-brutal-politics-cred...

And here is a deep fake audio recording of her admitting it. I'm sure she would never dream of using the same tactics regarding the voice!

https://www.buzzfeed.com/markdistefano/whats-the-point-of-australian-pol...

dude, seriously, do you really think there isn't a 26 page uluru statement document?

andy-mac Wednesday, 9 Aug 2023 at 10:41am

sypkan wrote:
andy-mac wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
sypkan wrote:
awww god albo...

really? ...that's how you're going to deal with this?

someone get this man some new advisors!

https://twitter.com/therealrukshan/status/1688781051219640321

Its kind of crazy that we are at this point where we really dont know if the Uluru statement is one page or much more.

Even before all this coming up i was under the understanding the one page was more the condensed thing, but obviously wasn't the detail.

I listened to a left wing 7am podcast the other day and the indigenous guy was explaining how his mother wasn't convinced but went and read all the pages in full which he was blown away by as was a lot to take in, she then agreed on it all. (i will try to find the episode)

There seems to be decent evidence its not just minutes or notes from the creation of the Uluru statement but more than that.

Is that the Peta Credlin that admitted that the whole carbon tax campaign was a lie and done for purely political bastardry?

And here is a lefty source.

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/carbon-tax-just-brutal-politics-cred...

And here is a deep fake audio recording of her admitting it. I'm sure she would never dream of using the same tactics regarding the voice!

https://www.buzzfeed.com/markdistefano/whats-the-point-of-australian-pol...

dude, seriously, do you really think there isn't a 26 page uluru statement document?

Who cares?
Gees it's an advisory body that may put ideas to better the lives of FNP's to parliament that may be taken up or rejected by the government of the day.
What do you think the secret agenda is? A treaty where FNP's take over Australia? Are they coming for our back yards?
Dunno, it seems like a pretty reasonable step to me. What is the worst that could happen if the Yes vote gets up? From my perspective the worst-case scenario is that it may be a wasteful body, but then at least it is accountable.

indo-dreaming Wednesday, 9 Aug 2023 at 10:57am

If the attitude is "who cares" then why not just be open honest and transparent???

It would be much smarter to explain what these other pages are for and how they relate to things, than just write people off as conspiracy theorist.

As a No voter im happy for Albo to have this type of reaction because when people know they aren't being told everything, it just puts further doubt in peoples minds.

frog Wednesday, 9 Aug 2023 at 1:38pm

One thing is clear, Albo's small target approach to this and other issues (AUKUS for example) has mainly added to questions people will have on Albo as a leader and has been a disservice to the causes he promotes. Small target politics got him into power but now he has to shift to leading / advocating and thereby bringing people with him through explanation. He seems quite reluctant to let people "look under the bonnet of the car(s)" he is selling. Albo seems to be sitting firmly on the bonnet waving a one page brochure at us all at the moment. Introducing compexity and detail has risks but those must be accepted as this is more than a "simple thing".

Keating, as a leader, in contrast, had the guts, intellect and ethics to successfully argue cases openly on the detail of quite complex issues.

andy-mac Wednesday, 9 Aug 2023 at 1:41pm

frog wrote:
One thing is clear, Albo's small target approach to this and other issues (AUKUS for example) has mainly added to questions people will have on Albo as a leader and has been a disservice to the causes he promotes. Small target politics got him into power but now he has to shift to leading / advocating and thereby bringing people with him through explanation. He seems quite reluctant to let people "look under the bonnet of the cars" he is selling. Introducing compexity and detail has risks but those must be accepted.

Keating, as a leader, in contrast, had the guts, intellect and ethics to successfully argue cases openly on the detail of quite complex issues.

Agree 100% re AUKUS.
Albo has been weak in a number of areas, very disappointing and deserves copping shit.
However re the Voice, no matter how much detail etc etc, the Coalition would still want more details. It is a political wedge campaign to divide Australia, and it is working, this forum being a key example. Even Phil Coorey has written as much and he is hardly a Labor cheer leader.
Pity the coalition and media didn't want more details re Robodebt, Consultancy firms, alleged rape in ministers office, Morrisons multiple ministries, Porter, Angus's shady dealings, Barnaby's water envoy gig and his family values whilst he was shagging a staffer leading up to an election, Dutton and payments to dodgy contractors on Nauru and the list could go on.

But hey a simple bit of tweaking the constitution to better look after FNP's, we demand and the people of Australia deserve details!!!! spare me.

Supafreak Wednesday, 9 Aug 2023 at 1:58pm

I think the big difference between you & indo andy- mac is that you call out labor when things aren’t right and so do other labor supporters . I have stated before , from the beginning that I don’t see Albo as a strong leader , he does have a very good team behind him though . I haven’t been happy with everything Albo’s done . Some choose to just ignore what their preferred party does and come up with excuses rather than call them out for any shitfuckery .

frog Wednesday, 9 Aug 2023 at 2:23pm

andy-mac wrote:
frog wrote:
One thing is clear, Albo's small target approach to this and other issues (AUKUS for example) has mainly added to questions people will have on Albo as a leader and has been a disservice to the causes he promotes. Small target politics got him into power but now he has to shift to leading / advocating and thereby bringing people with him through explanation. He seems quite reluctant to let people "look under the bonnet of the cars" he is selling. Introducing compexity and detail has risks but those must be accepted.

Keating, as a leader, in contrast, had the guts, intellect and ethics to successfully argue cases openly on the detail of quite complex issues.

Agree 100% re AUKUS.
Albo has been weak in a number of areas, very disappointing and deserves copping shit.
However re the Voice, no matter how much detail etc etc, the Coalition would still want more details. It is a political wedge campaign to divide Australia, and it is working, this forum being a key example. Even Phil Coorey has written as much and he is hardly a Labor cheer leader.
Pity the coalition and media didn't want more details re Robodebt, Consultancy firms, alleged rape in ministers office, Morrisons multiple ministries, Porter, Angus's shady dealings, Barnaby's water envoy gig and his family values whilst he was shagging a staffer leading up to an election, Dutton and payments to dodgy contractors on Nauru and the list could go on.

But hey a simple bit of tweaking the constitution to better look after FNP's, we demand and the people of Australia deserve details!!!! spare me.

If all it ever to be was "a simple tweaking of the constitution" it would be a total failure for First Nations people. That is demeaning for their extensive dialogue process and longheld hopes for change.

If you read the extensive consultation work group dialogue in the meeting notes I posted above that occurred in the lead up to the statement, you would see that the change to the constitution is as a sort of pivotal lever for great changes.

It should be judged by all as intended by the voices consulted, not as a minor "tweak".

andy-mac Wednesday, 9 Aug 2023 at 2:24pm

Supafreak wrote:
I think the big difference between you & indo andy- mac is that you call out labor when things aren’t right and so do other labor supporters . I have stated before , from the beginning that I don’t see Albo as a strong leader , he does have a very good team behind him though . I haven’t been happy with everything Albo’s done . Some choose to just ignore what their preferred party does and come up with excuses rather than call them out for any shitfuckery .

The Shit Party, and the Shit Lite party. :)

indo-dreaming Wednesday, 9 Aug 2023 at 2:36pm

OMFG now the 24/7 Labor shills are trying to act all bipartisan or something, I literally want to stick my fingers down my throat.

Theres quite a few people with fairly balanced political views one way or the other, often just bagging out both, or just calling it how it is or see it, but it aint me and aint you or the Andy's or Adam or Guy or Soggy dogs and a heap more.

They are the Blowins & Sypkan's, Zens, Gsco, seems i could add Frog to the list and many more i cant think of names right now.

Anyway we should aim to get back on topic, thats the Voice

andy-mac Wednesday, 9 Aug 2023 at 2:31pm

frog wrote:
andy-mac wrote:
frog wrote:
One thing is clear, Albo's small target approach to this and other issues (AUKUS for example) has mainly added to questions people will have on Albo as a leader and has been a disservice to the causes he promotes. Small target politics got him into power but now he has to shift to leading / advocating and thereby bringing people with him through explanation. He seems quite reluctant to let people "look under the bonnet of the cars" he is selling. Introducing compexity and detail has risks but those must be accepted.

Keating, as a leader, in contrast, had the guts, intellect and ethics to successfully argue cases openly on the detail of quite complex issues.

Agree 100% re AUKUS.
Albo has been weak in a number of areas, very disappointing and deserves copping shit.
However re the Voice, no matter how much detail etc etc, the Coalition would still want more details. It is a political wedge campaign to divide Australia, and it is working, this forum being a key example. Even Phil Coorey has written as much and he is hardly a Labor cheer leader.
Pity the coalition and media didn't want more details re Robodebt, Consultancy firms, alleged rape in ministers office, Morrisons multiple ministries, Porter, Angus's shady dealings, Barnaby's water envoy gig and his family values whilst he was shagging a staffer leading up to an election, Dutton and payments to dodgy contractors on Nauru and the list could go on.

But hey a simple bit of tweaking the constitution to better look after FNP's, we demand and the people of Australia deserve details!!!! spare me.

If all it ever to be was "a simple tweaking of the constitution" it would be a total failure for First Nations people. That is demeaning for their extensive dialogue process and longheld hopes for change.

If you read the extensive consultation work group dialogue in the meeting notes I posted above that occurred in the lead up to the statement, you would see that the change to the constitution is as a sort of pivotal lever for great changes.

It should be judged by all as intended by the voices consulted, not as a minor "tweak".

But that is what seems to be the major issue with the No campaign....
What is the worst possible outcome that the No campaign can foresee with a vote for Yes?
It appears to me to be just another scare wedge campaign...
Anyway I've said my bit, I'll be voting Yes and hopefully something good comes out of it for indigenous Australians. It is worth giving it a try, as for any further meaningful change to occur, I believe would be the first step.

andy-mac Wednesday, 9 Aug 2023 at 2:32pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
OMFG now the 24/7 Labor shills are trying to act all bipartisan or something, I literally want to stick my fingers down my throat.

Haha Labor Shills posting anti Labor material... Ya got me there!!

indo-dreaming Wednesday, 9 Aug 2023 at 2:37pm

Yeah great shills all trying to look neutral, due to previous conversation I will have to show the kids the blue moon tonight.

Supafreak Wednesday, 9 Aug 2023 at 2:56pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
Yeah great shills all trying to look neutral, due to previous conversation I will have to show the kids the blue moon tonight.

https://7news.com.au/technology/space/how-to-watch-the-rare-super-blue-m... you’re a few weeks early

GuySmiley Wednesday, 9 Aug 2023 at 4:27pm

Hey @stu or @ben, is the Emporium running some sort of “frequent commentary”competition or what? If so, old mate has it covered many times over!!

indo-dreaming Wednesday, 9 Aug 2023 at 4:31pm

Im off work this week sick as a dog with the flue and bored, and Sky News keeps making new videos, so maybe a bit of an apology.

But i do post in non political threads too.

GuySmiley Wednesday, 9 Aug 2023 at 4:54pm

Ahhhh,

Supafreak Wednesday, 9 Aug 2023 at 5:02pm

andy-mac Wednesday, 9 Aug 2023 at 5:09pm

Supafreak wrote:

Haha... Referring to comic.
Hope ya on mend ,@indo cepat sembuh
I had lergy few weeks back, nailed me for over a week... Nasty.

soggydog Wednesday, 9 Aug 2023 at 6:40pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
OMFG now the 24/7 Labor shills are trying to act all bipartisan or something, I literally want to stick my fingers down my throat.

Theres quite a few people with fairly balanced political views one way or the other, often just bagging out both, or just calling it how it is or see it, but it aint me and aint you or the Andy's or Adam or Guy or Soggy dogs and a heap more.

They are the Blowins & Sypkan's, Zens, Gsco, seems i could add Frog to the list and many more i cant think of names right now.

Anyway we should aim to get back on topic, thats the Voice

Yeeeah……nah. I’m interested in policy. I’ve got not interest in defending shit policy regardless of who it is.

But keep up the Sky News, the vitamin C and get bet…er....carry on.

indo-dreaming Wednesday, 9 Aug 2023 at 7:11pm

andy-mac wrote:
Haha... Referring to comic.
Hope ya on mend ,@indo cepat sembuh
I had lergy few weeks back, nailed me for over a week... Nasty.

Thanks Andy, i thought the wife and my boy were being a bit soft when they had it but now ive got it the worst flue ive had for years.

andy-mac Wednesday, 9 Aug 2023 at 7:48pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
andy-mac wrote:
Haha... Referring to comic.
Hope ya on mend ,@indo cepat sembuh
I had lergy few weeks back, nailed me for over a week... Nasty.

Thanks Andy, i thought the wife and my boy were being a bit soft when they had it but now ive got it the worst flue ive had for years.

Na it's a nasty one mate... Worked me...

adam12 Wednesday, 9 Aug 2023 at 7:59pm

"Thanks Andy, i thought the wife and my boy were being a bit soft when they had it but now ive got it the worst flue ive had for years."

Maybe get a chimney sweep, should clear it out in no time.

Supafreak Wednesday, 9 Aug 2023 at 8:01pm

Oh fark , that’s too funny .

adam12 Wednesday, 9 Aug 2023 at 9:43pm

The latest pile of bullshit emanating from the No side and confessed Murdoch/Sky news bullshitter Peta Credlin, "papergate", posted here with the usual shock horror commentary from the usual suspects, with the video posted by the last guy you'd want on your spelling bee team, Indo-dipshit, has me somewhat confused. I thought the problem was "no detail", now the problem seems to be "too much detail".
Of course the truth is that the 18 - 26 pages (they can't make up their mind how many exactly, Hanson says 18, Credlin says 23 , other s saying up to 26) claimed as the "secret", "hidden" pages of the Uluru statement are in fact background and exerts drawn from regional dialogues that have been freely available online, and part of the consultation process that led to the ONE page Uluru Statement. So after the howls of "look at the details" that have come from the No side for the last day or so, I predict the "no details" argument to return to top slot in the coming days. Good times.

indo-dreaming Wednesday, 9 Aug 2023 at 10:16pm

Hopefully this video doesn't get deleted before the morning.

And another example from a 2022 interview with her and there is at least one more video and a voice recording with her saying the exact same things.

https://www.countryroad.com.au/stories/walking-together-professor-megan-...

basesix Wednesday, 9 Aug 2023 at 10:16pm

hahaha. deleted? why would it be deleted? who gives a shit?

indo-dreaming Wednesday, 9 Aug 2023 at 10:51pm

I hope it doesn't but you never know, she is now claiming its only one page...

frog wrote:
This document details the records of first nations people regional meetings and referendum dialogue that informed the eventual Uluru statement from the heart

https://www.niaa.gov.au/sites/default/files/foi-log/foi-2223-016.pdf

It summarises the many concerns of the participants and their hopes and ambitions for the future. It does so at a level of detail that helps one understand what may be the motivations and outcomes, that will be underpinning The Voice in practice, from the perspective and words of current and future leaders of The Voice far more than the one page or 26 page summaries can do.

BTW. it is in that link but its right down the bottom at page 87 which is the main page itself that is like a cover page and summary, then the detail is in the following 20 pages or so, with half a dozen road maps etc

All the other pages before 87 leading up to it are minutes from meetings etc

If the 20+ pages are all the Uluru statement of the heart or just the one page, its really just arguing over semantics of what the Uluru statement is, but clearly the whole 26 pages are important as she says her self and even clearly calls them the Uluru statement of the heart, but i guess over time the easy to read one page summary cover page has become popularised by media etc as being the Uluru statement of the heart as such.

PS. How many pages it is or isn't is just how people see it i guess, do you include the one main page?...do you include the non text road maps?...

Hence why people might give slightly different numbers from 18 to 26.

basesix Wednesday, 9 Aug 2023 at 10:21pm

'pends on the size of the page i guess..

southernraw Wednesday, 9 Aug 2023 at 11:07pm

Thought this was a good reminder of the deeper spirtual element that runs beneath all the noise that's happening at the moment.
Also shout out to Bud1 for sharing the valuable educational aspect to this discussion. Much needed and appreciated.

OUR LIGHT
A Poem By Michelle Hetherington
"History of a hallowed land is hidden in plain sight.
Ancient whispers haunt a long forgotten night.
Walking in the shadows not knowing what we fight.
Dreamtime stories,
Souls will speak.
And the past shall be our light."

Source: Our Light - Creative Spirits, retrieved from https://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/arts/poems/our-light

truebluebasher Thursday, 10 Aug 2023 at 12:49am

Albo will likely call Reffo sometime today!
Albo : "After The Footy Finals > Around Oct / Nov!"

Meaning : Albo must call the Reffo today (Thursday!)
Here's how that works...

1967 Reffo =93 Days
1999 First Nation Pre Amble = 86 Days
Albo : said asap so can't delay Reffo call any shorter than Howard's 86 days
That brings it to 4th Nov 2023
Otherwise the Media will pick up on Albo's fastest promised slowest ever Reffo call.

10th Aug > 4th Nov = 86 Days ...So why exactly 4th Nov 2023...Please don't ask that!
Well it's not just that he's run outta time as "equal" Slowest ever Reffo caller...

AEC say VIP First Nation gotta Vote First (19 days earlier!)
https://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/article/remote-communities-will-be-the-first...

AEC Record Aboriginal Rollout Camps are longest ever & most expensive polling exercise in History!
AUKUS Subs / Skylab / Hoverboards...you name it, AEC booked 'em out for 3 weeks...
But also this happens at exactly the same time...
First Nation Cultural Week of Festivities double as Aboriginal Pre Poll [YES] Parties
Think AEC Garma [YES] Tent Embassies Popping up in 100's of outback outposts.

26th Oct = Uluru (1985) AEC [YES] Party
30th Oct = Racial Discrimination Act (1975) AEC [YES] Party
AEC Festivities culminate with [YES] Countdown to [AEC] Sat Night Party.
4th Nov = Reffo [Yes] (2023)

[ Factcheck ] Albo ( 86 days ) Exactly the same as Howard > No go slow Fault Claims.

Albo Mops Up goes on a benda & Oz Drowns Sorrows at The Cup.
7th Nov = Melbourne Cup "The Voice" Wins (That's just the stupid name of the Horse ya idiots!)
All Oz forget about wot happened last Weekend & shake hands then spew on each other!

These following Dates are way too late for Reffo...check them for yourselves...
Plus Albo would get his arse kicked mucking with Sacred White Festivities
11th Nov = Remembrance Day (No Bloody Way mate!)
18th-25th Nov = Schoolies (Gromz : Free Red Frogs for [YES] Votes...drool!)
25th Nov = Xmas Hols / Airline Strikes > Covid Waves > Record Silly Season Crisis!

Now Albo may not to choose tbb's shit hot get outta jail free card.
As said...tbb is just tryin' to help Albo / Oz to sneak out the backdoor unnoticed.
Crew don't need tbb's advice...if Albo delays this any further than today...we all know what happens!
So! There ya Have it folks...none can alter Voice destiny...Lock it in - come wot may!
tbb laid out the Timeline...are we on or not...All say Aye! Good! Now let's do this shit already!

Westofthelake Thursday, 10 Aug 2023 at 7:25am

Tone deaf #duddo

Supafreak Thursday, 10 Aug 2023 at 7:33am

1 page or not the information has always been there for anyone to look at and read . There is no “ secret government documents “ https://nit.com.au/09-08-2023/7150/megan-davis-slams-misinformation-on-b.... https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/aug/09/indigenous-austra...

sameaswas Thursday, 10 Aug 2023 at 10:58am

did anybody see that j.p. interview a week ago where a yes media white journo drove her to her home communitie to talk about the referendum?
and she went to visit her 80+yr old granny?
and a day or two(?) before the yes brigade had flown in etc etc.
and no one had told j.p. that her granny had been coward punched, king hit," deeveed" by a yes voter sitting in front of her at the community hall because the yes spokeperson asked for questions?
and j.p.'s granny went to speak and this lowlife spun around in his seat and gave her a wallop!
j.p. was crying when she saw her gran.
these schemeing yessers did'nt have the decency to forewarn j.p. or demand criminal charges be laid, her granny did'nt want to lay charges or talk about it (probly terrified of payback) but did allow a photo of her by her grandaughter.
the msm no mention of it?!!
vote yes for thug rule and censored news...george orwell "1984" and "animal farm" all in one!!

indo-dreaming Thursday, 10 Aug 2023 at 1:23pm

Supafreak wrote:
1 page or not the information has always been there for anyone to look at and read . There is no “ secret government documents “ https://nit.com.au/09-08-2023/7150/megan-davis-slams-misinformation-on-b.... https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/aug/09/indigenous-austra...

Thats a fair call the 26 pages are on the main Uluru statement website, bit silly to call it Secret.

The other minutes and notes aren't though, so they were only made public with the FIA act, they do reveal a lot on what people were saying in these meetings through much of it goes against government narrative.

Yeah of course the NIAA have been pressured by government into a new narrative, Albo would look even more silly if all the pages were confirmed in writing that the Uluru statement of the heart isnt just one page, its called saving face, when your the most powerful person in Australia you can pull strings.

I mean he did compare people to QAON conspiracy theorist only a few days ago about the extra pages.

indo-dreaming Thursday, 10 Aug 2023 at 2:34pm

GuySmiley Thursday, 10 Aug 2023 at 3:41pm

What’s the word that best describes the polar opposite to polymath?

indo-dreaming Thursday, 10 Aug 2023 at 4:39pm

Okay here are all the pieces, one was actually missing last time (the report)

1. What Megan in the video calls "Uluru statement of the heart invitation" is like a cover page or a summary its the simplified thing in one page so easy to read.

Its now popularly become known as the Uluru statement of the heart.

Its here https://ulurustatemdev.wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/UluruStat...

Or its also show as the first page like Megan says in the video before the other 19 pages of text and half a dozen non text, its starts on Page 87 of the NIAA FOI docs (see link below)

2. You have the other pages of the Uluru statement that Megan talks about 19 pages plus cover page so 20, then there is half a dozen flow chart type things mostly without text that brings things to 26 pages. you can find this from Page 86 of NIAA FOI docs or you can also find it at the end of the Uluru report shaded in grey (now was it always there or has it been moved for face saving political reason's?)

3. Then there is the Uluru statement of the heart report itself
https://ulurustatemdev.wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Referendu...

(which again after it has all pages of Uluru statement of the heart other than invitation added in a grey shaded pages)

4. Then you have other documents mostly minutes from meetings in NIAA FOI that weren't released to the public until the FOI Act was requested.(see link below)
https://www.niaa.gov.au/.../files/foi-log/foi-2223-016.pdf

(you can see the FOI ACT stamp on each page on right hand side)

All makes sense it would be ridiculous for there just to be one page, all pages are important to some degree and obviously the devil is always in the detail

Bud1 Thursday, 10 Aug 2023 at 5:07pm

Exactly wilhelm. And no problems SR.

But Westofthelake highlights a reality that some choose. Bored, really sicko i-d skims the videos, searching for an angle to sink the boot into Indigenous Australians and fires away, either willfully, or completely oblivious to the facts and themes that Dr Cane and the national and international experts highlight in the video series. Indigenous Australians with their 60,000 years of success and experience rejected the style of farming, that our culture embraces, in favour of a much less labor intensive, much more successful at nurturing the environment style of land management and lifestyle. Creating ‘the biggest estate on earth’.

As Gammage said:

‘What they achieved was remarkable no other world civilization had achieved it’

Westofthelake wrote:
Tone deaf #duddo

Sykpan says:

‘ I have no doubt how brilliant indigenous australians were/are’

He then also say that the reality is he couldn’t care less about Indigenous Australians.

‘but it is hard for me to care when I see how labor have behaved throughout this whole campaign

I don't have a horse in this race, so you are totally wrong there

again...

Im just here to comment on the day to day politics and how contemporary politics has lost the plot’

He would rather pour his heart and soul into petty, shallow shit.

‘dude, seriously, do you really think there isn't a 26 page uluru statement document?’

I hope that people listen to Dr Cane and watch the videos. But, so many, more each day love ‘the mother country(s). ‘Why won’t they listen!’ Who doesn’t love a bit of acid rain, totally stuffed up waterways, pollution, rampant inequality, corruption, endless wars, homelessness, tax dodging, and the list just keeps on growing! Got a few decades to spare, we can put some videos up.

Westofthelake’s observation is nothing new here.

https://www.swellnet.com/comment/477469

‘Speaking of, they just plain suck in the barrel.

I reckon a quad gives you all the good aspects of a twinny without the downsides.’

‘Now, where was I? Twin fins are shit in the barrel.

Hope I extricated myself out of that’

Because see, fuck the videos, these people are just idiots.

At the 10 minute mark: ‘Glorious, lots of long, long tubes.’

‘My favourite tube riding board I’ve ever ridden in my life.’

Another idiot. Give him a proper backhand!

Yet another ignorant smart arse.

More gronks.

I’ve never ridden one, but I’ve shared waves, drain pipe bombs with those who have. Some were years ago. Like Indigenous Australians, same Lore, same umbrella, different Cultural expressions welcomed and appreciated. and respected.

Poor i-d is feeling extra lo. Even sicker than this. Where would someone feel so safe, and comfortable chundering all over everyone with this shit? Where would this crap be encouraged and supported. Another ‘quadrant’, swellnet’s own sicko, sweet chapter.

‘BTW. i saw a women at the market in Dandenong the other day with a burqua or maybe it was a Niqab it was kind of in-between couldn't see her face though, i was waiting for my missus so did a bit of people watching with her, to be honest she didn't look oppressed like the full black robe ones I've seen in Indonesia that look like servants of the men, actually looked the opposite in this case she had her little middle eastern guy following her around and from the body language she looked like she was wearing the pants so to speak.

It was quite crowded and was thinking maybe i will accidentally go bump into her and say sorry etc and see if she will interact with me and see the reaction of her husband, but by that time my missus had finished.‘

https://www.swellnet.com/comment/549997

Nothings changed, lo i-d is sicker than ever.

I hope people vote yes. I’m out of here, Im not into ‘quadrant’, and protected sickos sinking the boots into Indigenous Australians. I’m going surfing.

indo-dreaming Thursday, 10 Aug 2023 at 6:45pm

You know guys if you want this thread shut down, your probably going the right way about it, just trying to stir up shit with complete nonsense and personal attacks, and then when Swellnet are forced to do so, or tell you its time to have a rest from Swellnet you are going to whinge that you are being hard done by, and im sure there is others that dont want the thread shut down and want to have a proper discussion or civil debate especially seeing as we have months of this to go.

I guess some people just dont learn from their past mistakes and it's true old habits die hard.

Hats off to Andy-mac though, i didn't expect or seek sympathy yesterday, but you can tell that he is a quality person, even though we had been in somewhat of a heated debate he can put beliefs and politics aside and treat others as humans, to me that is a sign of someone of a very good character and an admirable quality to be respected (not sure id even do the same if im being honest)

Of course that doesn't mean we should or will go easier on each other in future debates or even say stuff in the heat of the moment maybe we shouldn't, but yeah still.....respect.

Supafreak Thursday, 10 Aug 2023 at 6:51pm

Liberals more right wing than One Nation on the Voice: PM Anthony Albanese says the Coalition is making One Nation look like a mainstream party with its insistence the Uluru Statement from the Heart is actually 26 pages long, not one.
The Prime Minister has also mocked the opposition and others in the No camp for claiming the government has kept this secret, when the document has been available on the internet since 2017 when the former Coalition government put it there. “This is absolute conspiracy and nonsense,” Mr Albanese told parliament in repose to a second day of Coalition questioning.
“It shows that they’ve become a fringe political party. They are making One Nation look like a mainstream political party with this nonsense.”
The Uluru Statement from the Heart, created in 2017 at a national Constitutional Convention by a collective of first nations leaders, outlines a three-step path comprising an Indigenous Voice to parliament enshrined in the Constitution; a Makarrata commission to supervise agreement-making and truth-telling; which would lead to a treaty. This is all contained in a one-page, 439-word statement. But the No camp, which is trying to scare voters by saying a Voice will lead to a treaty, is claiming the Uluru Statement from the Heart is “deceptive” and secretive, because it is accompanied by 25 pages of background and supporting arguments.
Professor Megan Davis, speaking on behalf of the Uluru Dialogue, angrily rejected the No camp claims.
“The Uluru Statement from the Heart is one page. It is 439 words,” she said.
It is supported by other documents contained in the Referendum Council report that reflect and document the many regional dialogues and consultation leading up to it.
The issue flared after Sky News claimed to have secured the documents under Freedom of Information laws.
But the official documents have been public for seven years and are found on the Referendum Council website. “For seven years, we have encouraged politicians, the media and Australians generally to engage to learn more about the Uluru Statement from the Heart,” Professor Davis said.
“We have asked Australians to read the one-pager and the ‘Our Story’ that follows and the summary of the decision-making and many other documents contained in the report.
“When we encourage all Australians to inform themselves by reading deeply, that is distorted and weaponised by a No campaign that has no alternative and is intent on misinformation and division.”

https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/liberals-more-right-wing-than-one-n.... It’s actually amazing that some people are sucked into believing what credin says is gospel .

indo-dreaming Thursday, 10 Aug 2023 at 6:55pm

@Supa

So why has Megan being saying differently for years then?

You must have missed the video i posted yesterday so will post again, she is being pretty clear and this is only one example of many..

It's really just semantics anyway on a name, as i posted above all the nonsense, there is all kinds of related documents that provide much more information depth and insight into the USOTH

indo-dreaming Thursday, 10 Aug 2023 at 7:04pm

BTW. just one simple question that id love answered by anyone or ideally as many people as possible as curious how people see it.

Do people think the voice or main aim of the voice is about closing the gap or social politics? .....or other, if "other," what?

@Guy I answered your question the other day, please have a go at this simple question (short answer is fine)

Supafreak Thursday, 10 Aug 2023 at 7:06pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
@Supa

So why has Megan being saying differently for years then?

You must have missed the video i posted yesterday so will post again, she is being pretty clear and this is only one example of many..

It's really just semantics anyway on a name, as i posted above all the nonsense, there is all kinds of related documents that provide much more information depth and insight into the USOTH

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PvcUvcE6xc

You need to pay closer attention to what she’s saying , I question your interpretation of what she just said . @ indo do you know what you’re actually going to be voting on ?

indo-dreaming Thursday, 10 Aug 2023 at 7:17pm

Like i said its just semantics on a name really, let be real both sides are spinning a bit of shit, like i said whatever you want to call the docs they are important and provide much more information than the one page.

Do i know what im voting on?

Well that kind of relates to the question ive asked above.

Im sure we have a different view of what we are voting on through and the aim.

Happy to answer your question in more detail though after you answer my simple one, my answer will probably derail things too much.

Supafreak Thursday, 10 Aug 2023 at 7:16pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
BTW. just one simple question that id love answered by anyone or ideally as many people as possible as curious how people see it.

Do people think the voice or main aim of the voice is about closing the gap or social politics? .....or other, if "other," what?

@Guy I answered your question the other day, please have a go at this simple question (short answer is fine)

Definitely other , it’s about having verbal input into decisions that directly effect FNP , when people contribute to decisions and policies that directly impact their lives , the results are more positive , this is evident in many areas here and worldwide . It’s pretty simple really. Will it be a magic wand , definitely not . It will take time , a lot of time . Is it worth giving FNP a shot at helping themselves? Definitely YES

indo-dreaming Thursday, 10 Aug 2023 at 7:18pm

Do you think the main goal is to close the gap though?

Supafreak Thursday, 10 Aug 2023 at 7:29pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
Do you think the main goal is to close the gap though?

I think the main goal is to be heard, that FNP have their own solutions to their problems. Closing the gap will only come later , unfortunately much much later . There’s a lot of damage to repair . Don’t underestimate what FNP are capable of , definitely a very intelligent group of people with a different way of problem solving…….given the chance .

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