The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

bluediamond started the topic in

Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

southernraw Saturday, 5 Aug 2023 at 2:56pm

Thanks for your posts Bud1.
Gonna try to catch up on the vids you posted over the weekend.
@syp your sentiments mirror those of a wheatbelt land owner who i saw posted something similar on fb this morning...something about Labor saving their own bacon before the next electioon.
I'm not sure why you think it was a 'fuckup of mammoth proportions'.
For who? The rich and powerful, or for the indigenous people who are seeing their culture and history blown up before their eyes?
Listening to some feedback from Indigenous spokespeople today, they're not entirely onboard with your assessment. They reckon they were duped into voting for Labor at the last election on a false promise.

flollo Saturday, 5 Aug 2023 at 3:51pm

I read somewhere that these laws required a cultural assessment by consultants when making a fence post hole deeper than 500mm? Is this true? If yes then it’s a ridiculous piece of legislation.

sypkan Saturday, 5 Aug 2023 at 4:20pm

"...something about Labor saving their own bacon before the next electioon..."

no doubt a bit of that going on at a local level

but I was referring more to the voice vote and a federal level. I would be very surprised if federal labor haven't had a little crisis talk with state labor, and told them beyond bluntly to sort their shit out, quickly...

this roll out has been 'botched' by their own admission. federal labor would be wigging out big time at how bad this looks against what they are trying to do

and more importantly, they would be more terrified about the pending next 3 months of media shit storm that would be a backdrop to the voice vote if someone didn't act decisively, it would have been a disaster

the juukan gorge cave thing was both unbelievable and heart breaking...

absolutely unbelievable it could possibly happen with current protections in place - and truly heart breaking for a much wider swathe of the oz population than some would like to admit

but what labor rolled out seemed rushed, poorly thought out, and stepping well into the realms of overreach, not to mention a bit gravy trainy...

and the timing... terrible...

a bit of a much needed reassessment it would seem

indo-dreaming Saturday, 5 Aug 2023 at 4:32pm

basesix wrote:
"i wont be bullied into being silenced, by silly nonsense meme's, poke me with a stick and i will just post more."
karen?.. that you?

Like i said yesterday to Guy, due to subject matter at some point this thread is going to turn to shit and go off the rails and Swellnet crew are going to have no choice but to shut it down. (and everyone will have sook when it happens)

We havent even got a date for this thing yet, so lets pace ourselves and agree to try to keep it as civil as we can as long as we can.

I dont want it shut down because i think its good for people to be educated on how much of a shambles this thing all is and document it all.

Not that ive documented it all, for instance Jacinta Price the other week challenging Linda Burley to a debate on the voice which Linda ewas to scared to take up, as Jacinta would have eaten her up.

Both Jacinta and Linda have been thrown in the deep end for tokenistic reasons, but Linda is way out of her depth, she has screwed up so many times in question time even seeing drops in polls over the things she says, now she is at the point she is completely avoiding questions and literally reading from a script that isnt even related to the clear question asked. ( i guess they have ensured she does this so she doesnt put her foot in it again)

Bud1 Saturday, 5 Aug 2023 at 4:26pm

What did you think of Dr Cane’s conclusions and the videos flollo?

https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/department/media/publications/before-y...

Seeking consultation with experts before digging deeper than 500mm is actually highly recommended and common in our cultural world view. Mistakes can be both financially drastic and also cause huge complications. Overall though, what seems a small, inconsequential hole, is really just the tip of the iceberg.

Indigenous Australians are asking for their proven, beyond any doubt, environmental management success and knowledge, and their never surrendered Cultures to be acknowledged and utilized. Because they, like us, are living with the glaring cost of our ever growing mistakes, from our history of ‘digging holes’.

I understand your frustration about the unaffordable EV vehicles. It would be so much better to adopt and embrace cultural values and ideologies where all could afford to live in and nurture the environment, and thus humankind.

sypkan Saturday, 5 Aug 2023 at 4:30pm

"...The updated laws required some landholders to undertake detailed and expensive assessments through a new Local Aboriginal Cultural Heritage Service (LACHS) to determine whether a project will cause “harm” to cultural heritage.

Under a complex three-tiered system, any maintenance or demolition that involves removing more than four kilograms of material, disturbing more than 10 square metres of ground or excavating to a depth of more than 50 centimetres may require a permit from the LACHS.

An exemption would apply for all residential properties under 1100 square metres and for maintenance and “like-for-like” activities – such as planting crops, running livestock or replacing a fence.

The landowner would be required to pay the LACHS to assess their application – which requires specific consultants that can charge hundreds of dollars per hour...."

https://www.news.com.au/national/western-australia/west-australia-govern...

that ambiguous word 'may' is in there...

and state labor would like to present the appearance they only botched the messaging...

but throwing the whole thing out suggests otherwise

indo-dreaming Saturday, 5 Aug 2023 at 4:39pm

sypkan wrote:
funny, I think the WA backdown/backflip thingy is the smartest thing an incompetent hubris filled contemporay labor has ever done...

rolling it out - right at this time- was either fanciful, just plain stupid, or gross oversight at best

it's own architects and advocates have admitted they "botched it" - a pretty frank assessment in the current climate

...in a political era of absolutely ridiculous political spin, where no one acknowledges error, fault, or even reality - this was a refreshingly pragmatic practical move, where the 'hubes' dropped the hubris for once, in a fleeting moment of rare self refletion...

a little moment of sacrificing the baby to save the village from my perspective

that's not to say some change to these laws isn't needed

but this rollout was a fuck up of mammoth proportions

100%

The no camp literally just keep getting all these free gifts.

This was one of them its pretty much ensured WA is a no state, and then all the things many of those involved in the voice plus Albo and Linda have said in the past or even recently, the No camp flyer thing is literal just a reprint of things they have said with no need to even take their word out of context they are that bad..

Bud1 Saturday, 5 Aug 2023 at 5:10pm

‘that ambiguous word 'may' is in there’

Yes along with this.

‘An exemption would apply for all residential properties under 1100 square metres and for maintenance and “like-for-like” activities – such as planting crops, running livestock or replacing a fence.’

Each circumstance has unique elements, it is impossible to address them all, so intelligent flexibility is good. Like Indigenous Cultures, one overriding Law, but with huge flexibility re Cultural expression.

Look at all the crazy, inflexible laws we have. People booked for putting their elbow out the window on a hot day.

https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/is-it-illegal-to-drive-with-your-arm-....

What did you think of Dr Cane’s conclusion and the videos sykpan and i-d?

sypkan Saturday, 5 Aug 2023 at 5:36pm

"...Both Jacinta and Linda have been thrown in the deep end for tokenistic reasons, but Linda is way out of her depth, she has screwed up so many times in question time even seeing drops in polls over the things she says, now she is at the point she is completely avoiding questions and literally reading from a script that isnt even related to the clear question asked. ( i guess they have ensured she does this so she doesnt put her foot in it again)..."

I'm actually genuinely concerned for linda burney. before this process started she appeared a spritely old chook, quite good at media and debates

now she seems to be struggling, and not just in the way you describe

no doubt this has been a testing time for her, and it could be just plain old ageing... whatever it is, someone needs to take a bit of the pressure off

sypkan Saturday, 5 Aug 2023 at 5:56pm

haven't watched the vids Bud1, but preety sure I caught some of that series on sbs or abc way back, might have another look

not exactly sure which conclusion you are referring to... but the bits I've read seem a bit 'special interest' and idealistic to be honest...

idealistic and special interest are fine, and even neccessary... but...

southernraw Saturday, 5 Aug 2023 at 6:01pm

Cheers for the reply @syp
Some pretty reasonable points there.
I found these two paragraphs interesting from the first article i posted
'Mining exploration companies said the laws, which apply to all parcels of land exceeding 1100 square metres, would have had a profound impact on the search for critical minerals, precious metals and iron ore.
Many rivers, creeks and other tributaries are considered ethnographic sites requiring the highest high level of assessment under the new laws, which handed considerable power to groups referred to as Local Aboriginal Cultural Heritage Services even though none were set up as of July 1."
To the laymen, like myself, that would seem an even better reason to have one voice operating out of Canberra that can oversee issues like this and allocate resources and people on the ground to stand up and protect their interests. Maybe that's a bit simplistic, but if there's all these different indigenous bodies and organisations (hence no need for one voice) as pointed out naively above, then how could there not be one set up for this seemingly critical issue?
And like i said, i'm with the indigenous crew on this one that are directly affected by it. They must feel pretty stooged at the moment with broken promises and the door about to swing wide open again for more potential heartbreak at the hands of mining giants and pastoralists.

Bud1 Saturday, 5 Aug 2023 at 6:35pm

The conclusion is a recording of an interview with Dr Cane sykpan, its at the bottom of the page, and plays easily.

Considering the seriousness of the topic, and Dr Cane’s substantial expertise, it has pertinence, which flows into the videos. Which you say you aren’t sure of the content, or can’t really even recall if you watched them? Fair enough, and Dr Cane does point out that to engage with and understand the ‘profound’ ‘vastness’ ‘of Indigenous connection to the land and the stunning success story, ‘requires ‘a certain amount of intellectual input and alertness on behalf of the listener’.

Likewise i-d laments about being ‘slack’ in his documentation and education work (although he quickly edited and deleted the ‘slack’ reference). In his type of work, education and documentation, its not uncommon to be overwhelmed, so he shouldn’t be too hard on himself. Easy to see how Linda Burney might be feeling though, and how appearance’s effect perceptions, which would also explain i-d not wanting to be seen as slack in his work, and field of education and documentation, so feeling that he needed to quickly edit and remove his self assessment of being ‘slack’.

https://www.caama.com.au/2021/08/23/is-this-the-most-significant-legacy-...

truebluebasher Saturday, 5 Aug 2023 at 7:30pm

Qldurrz / Goldie are a lost cause...surely...but wait...what's this...
[L] + [alp] Joint ticket > Running for the [YES] Campaign...a bloody miracle.

Sadly Sky news reported so only 875 Aussies 'liked'...A record haul for the [Yes] Camp...Stoked!
If [Yes] camp wanna boost from Qld...this is the motherlode!
tbb will happily share the magic...the point of the turnaround...'A fightback!'

Fellow Qldurrz : 'Settle down tbb...don't get their hopes up!'
Feel the Power of the Fight Back!

indo-dreaming Saturday, 5 Aug 2023 at 7:35pm

"West Australia government to scrap controversial ‘botched’ Aboriginal cultural heritage laws within days"

The controversial Aboriginal cultural heritage laws that prompted an army of outraged farmers to rally in an outback hall last month are set to be scrapped, according to new reports.

Western Australian Premier Roger Cook and the state’s Minister for Aboriginal Affairs Tony Buti are expected to make an announcement on the divisive Aboriginal cultural heritage laws early next week, the ABC reports."

https://www.news.com.au/national/western-australia/west-australia-govern...

zenagain Saturday, 5 Aug 2023 at 7:44pm

Adam12, I never thanked you for your great reply to me the other day.

Some good posts above from all and well done for remaining civil (for now).

basesix Saturday, 5 Aug 2023 at 8:29pm

yeh.

truebluebasher Saturday, 5 Aug 2023 at 9:26pm

tbb agrees with crew...Thanx again indo that's a vital share within current Oz timeline.

Wotz Changed from then to now...Global News this Week...that's wot!

Ukraine Grain is Blocked > Flooded China race to remove Oz Tariff to lock in WA Grain deals.

Albo is on the Comeback trail & he won't want any road blocks with First Nation or China.
Both The Voice & 70th Anniversary China Tour look set for Oct!
Now he's got land mines on both...can't take a trick! The guy is cursed...FFS! Wot next!

Few would begrudge WA drafting a Reactive Heritage Law > [L] even backed it as no brainer...
Kicked in on 1st July > Main opposition is from Farmers
No time to waste for least number of owners of Largest Oz Crops to spend record money on surveys.
Business is business..all lights are flashing for Oz / WA to lock in Global Grain Deals.

Make hay while the Sun Shines...none can stand in the way of best trade opportunity of an era.
Most artifacts or sites would be beneath ground & unidentifiable without Time & great cost!

Aboriginal Groups are devastated by news and feel betrayed...
Happy to fix Guidelines but don't replace the ACT.
Aborigines will withdraw unless clarity about future.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/aug/05/wa-cultural-herit...

Albo may be dragged in to draft Fed legislation on the matter.
We could be seeing WA seat warming for overlord Albo to wave his wand.
Perhaps a Voice reveal date + Referee Albo to intro a National Heritage Development code!
Well! Either Way...Albo must commit to address Nat heritage for whatever outcome.
By doing it now he locks in a guarantee for Aboriginal (Voice) & Chinese (Trade) interests.
That's what Oz / WA want & What Libs fear the most!
Coz Oz would see Albo with a kick in his step...Mr fix it...
A True Leader of the People of The World...is he up to the task!
Coz this kinda Oz wide Heritage deal is big enough to lift his polls for exactly the right reason.

Surely in current rush...some kind of Flagging...that allows progress on larger scale to continue!
Tractor turns up somethin'...Flag it...ring it in for alt Progress report & move on to next paddock.
eg: Chinese sites could be Stalled for Teams to 'Spy on Heritage sites' get the idea!
Just saying Albo could also placate Joe by examining rare earth on Chinese Mining sites...say no more!
So the Policy is not without attributes that appease National Security in the name of Heritage!

Dec 2022 reshuffle WA Enviro minister T. Buti inherited this Law .
He seems Over Qualified on this exact level.
PhD on Guardianship Law & Stolen Generation + Books
Law Lecturer at Murdoch Uni.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Buti

truebluebasher Saturday, 5 Aug 2023 at 9:47pm

Yes! Much better...also wanna thank & credit Bud1 + sypkan ...sorry guys...just read yer WA intro on this.
Good work crew...all are up to date with this now...Yes...reckon Albo must hose it down.

truebluebasher Saturday, 5 Aug 2023 at 10:23pm

If we're switchin' to WA & gettin' all wishy washy then let's bring in the Former PM.
Not Oz media & not even 2x Oz female PMs care to bother or acknowledge this...that makes it rare.
So rare that we Aussies gotta read about it in US Media...coz they get off on this Female PM anomaly!
They be like counting down the hours to publish this #1 Achievement > tbb proudly shared this before...
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/28/australia-foreign-chief-julie-bishop-sta...
Julie Bishop did serve as 1st Oz [L] Woman PM.

tbb also recently sat & listened to our former female [L] PM at the Nat' Press Club...
Former [L] PM's Malcolm Turnbull & Julie Bishop are proudly voting [YES]
Sure Qldurrz are sharin' the peace pipe...suck it up!
[YES] Supporters will get another free kick from #1 Oz [L] Chick...Enjoy!

truebluebasher Saturday, 5 Aug 2023 at 10:56pm

Qldurrz deliver a Hat Trick of Harmony ... Fed [L] leaders voting [YES]
Former Fed [L] Leader John Hewson wants [L] to vote [YES]
https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/politics/australian-politics/2023/04/15/...

tbb thinks it's important to share that there's no shortage of former Federal [L] Leaders voting [YES]

Also reckon Albo would do well to salute Oz [L] Leaders for standing proud...gotta respect that.
If Albo fails to trip over this free gold standard opportunity then he's more stupid than all here imagine.
These Libs alone have enough sway to win the day...all crew here know that's true!
Cut the crabby act Albo, pick yerself up & Salute fellow [L] leaders for truly advancing The Voice.

Nothing short of a joint standing will do...then watch Oz take notice of United Leaders as one Voice.
Bring in all Dozen Party Leaders as One [YES] ...then watch as [NO] camp muster their evil twins / trio.
tbb would like to see that & reckon Australia needs to see partisan support to Vote [YES].

basesix Sunday, 6 Aug 2023 at 8:44am

bluediamond wrote:
Good on you folks. This is a robust conversation but good to see it's remained (mostly) respectful.
Indo, just back to your reply above, i guess we have different perspectives ultimately. Same as Blowin, and Sypkan and a few other posters, and i'm not surprised. Your views have always been pretty clear in the past and trying to provide a new way of thinking and letting go of your old views doesn't seem to have much impact. And i would argue that you folk represent at least 85-90 percent of the Australian population (the white ones Blowin). That's ok. That's how it is. Just have to be the outsider. It's not easy being green!!
The reality is that there is an issue that isn't going away, and if it was to change, we all, as a social collective would need to change something about ourselves too. I don't see that happening by reading these comments and from some of the filth i hear day either online or in the 'real world'. Racism is very real in this country against indigenous crew.
Indo i'd argue that historically speaking, trying to 'assimilate' a culture or 'close the gap' and bring blackfellas in line to whitefellas ways could possibly be part of the reason so many Indigenous Aussies are in the situations you pointed out above. If you can't fit in with the 'new' culture (only 200 years or so lets not forget) then where have you got left to go and what can you do?
And by the way, You mentioned in a post above that before white invasion, Indigenous life was very violent. I'm not saying it wasn't, i don't know to be honest, but to make such a strong claim like that, i'd really like to see/hear/read evidence of such. Because i haven't heard that before. Not to the extent that it was any more or less violent than whitemans culture. So if there's no evidence, i'm really wondering why you'd say it, if not to only taint the culture. Like i posted above, would like to know because i'm sure that wasn't your intentions. If you have some links or books i should read i'd be interested to learn more.
Anyway, just got back from watching the Right going bananas. That place is incredibly intense. The energy of the land there is super strong too. Its a fair walk in and you really get a sense of something bigger surrounding you in the energy. You can't help but let your mind drift to the connection the crew who traversed these lands for thousands of years must have had, and how delicate and intimate their knowledge was of everything. Quite humbling.
BTW. Indo, have you seen that doco called 'In My Blood It Runs'? It is brilliant and i think it would give you a good understanding of why alot of the struggles exist. Without giving too much away, there's a point where the education for a young fella, who's struggling with white fella education, is sent back to his homeland, and taught his native culture and educated in that way. It's a complete turnaround and he goes from being confused and up to mischief, to completely, spiritually fulfilled. Highly recommend watching it.
Sorry for long post. Will try to keep them shorter cos it's a mission reading long ones.

indo-dreaming Sunday, 6 Aug 2023 at 1:43pm

Bud1 wrote:
Likewise i-d laments about being ‘slack’ in his documentation and education work (although he quickly edited and deleted the ‘slack’ reference). In his type of work, education and documentation, its not uncommon to be overwhelmed, so he shouldn’t be too hard on himself. Easy to see how Linda Burney might be feeling though, and how appearance’s effect perceptions, which would also explain i-d not wanting to be seen as slack in his work, and field of education and documentation, so feeling that he needed to quickly edit and remove his self assessment of being ‘slack’.

https://www.caama.com.au/2021/08/23/is-this-the-most-significant-legacy-...

Huh?

The area of my post you are talking about is this.

"I dont want it shut down because i think its good for people to be educated on how much of a shambles this thing all is and document it all.

Not that ive documented it all, for instance Jacinta Price the other week challenging Linda Burley to a debate on the voice which Linda was to scared to take up, as Jacinta would have eaten her up."

Your obviously looking way to deep into my edit, i edit pretty much all my post, i only edited it so people could read it easier and trying to minimise any trigger effect.

Anyway going to be interesting to see how long you can stay all calm and collected, if history is anything to go by not all that long.

Yes people Uplift is back.

indo-dreaming Sunday, 6 Aug 2023 at 1:46pm

Anyway another good video

And from video a visual perspective of poll results over the last year.

basesix Sunday, 6 Aug 2023 at 2:10pm

hahahaha. wow, race to the bottom anyone? Make enough noise and people will stop being generous-of-spirit, lose love for their fellows, start choosing principles over people, and do. absolutely. nothing. take it away del amitri.

(thank you for pointing this out indo : )

GuySmiley Sunday, 6 Aug 2023 at 2:21pm

g'day @info, who are Australian Agenda with only 242 YouTube subscribers and no other online presence when they are not some shady front for the NO campaigners?

Are they another outfit like that discredited Gold Coast Aboriginal guy you posted the other day that tbb outed as sitting on the Bennalong org board comprising IPA members whose role was to promote assimilation and to discredit land rights claims?

indo-dreaming Sunday, 6 Aug 2023 at 3:30pm

@ Guy

Firstly im not sure what subscriber numbers matter?....but if talking numbers he is getting some very fast growth in views, four weeks ago his video only got 40 view's, two weeks ago his video got 131 views, his next video one day ago 7.8K views, then video 21 hours ago has so far 18K views.

They are amazing YouTube growth numbers. (id say maybe he has hit his ceiling for now though and bounce around the 5K to 20K range depending on video subject matter)

You always attack the man rather than the content, why not tell us why he is wrong about what he says and then do what he has and back it up with evidence. (in his case words/documents/video from the Yes side)

Of course the video i posted is from someone on the No camp side, obviously a Yes camp side person isnt going to say these things, they are going to do their best to hide these things and do what Albo does and say things like this is modest proposal no big deal and play things down, hey just vote Yes and we will sort the detail out latter, trust me this is about the Voice only, Treaty and reparations etc...oh no this has nothing to do with that.

In regard to that other Wes guy/videos, i posted the video not knowing who he was and was open about that, digging a little on him now he seems to have decades of experience in indigenous affair's and yes seems to have conservative leanings.

To me that make sense, he was making way to much sense with his video's, great to learn there is another conservative indigenous person getting involved in a range of indigenous aspects, im surprised ive never come across him before.

Seems to have even written a book "Sustainability of indigenous communities "
Been CEO of Aboriginal Centre for the Performing Arts
A National Indigenous Council member
Director at Blaque Digital (indigenous development)
Indigenous adviser
Runs Cultural courses
Done articles for The Australian and appeared on the ABC Drum

Only went to third page of google with his name but didnt find the other links TB did, but not denying them either.

I guess the difference between you and me is i see these links as positive not negative, with his common sense mind set i wasn't really expecting him to be part of the whole wallow in self pity everyone else is to blame brigade.

GuySmiley Sunday, 6 Aug 2023 at 3:41pm

Nice, do you support his board’s position of assimilation and discrediting land rights claims then?

andy-mac Sunday, 6 Aug 2023 at 3:44pm

Not everyone who votes No is a racist, but every racist will vote No...
As Billy Bragg sang, "who's side are ya on?"

View this post on Instagram

basesix Sunday, 6 Aug 2023 at 4:37pm

hahaha. double minority, a woman and a redhead. shiiiiiit............. : )

indo-dreaming Sunday, 6 Aug 2023 at 4:51pm

GuySmiley wrote:
Nice, do you support his board’s position of assimilation and discrediting land rights claims then?

I did see this article on the second page of search results on him.

"National Indigenous Council member Wesley Aird and 1000 other descendants of the Yugambeh people have filed a claim covering 1330sq km of vacant Crown land "

https://intercontinentalcry.org/native-title-claim-not-land-grab/amp/

indo-dreaming Sunday, 6 Aug 2023 at 4:56pm

Regardung the racist aspect.

Thought this summed it up pretty good.

The question is, does it make everyone who votes Yes racist?...or is it more about intent?

When ive seen this discussion before about racism, people have generally said that intent is irrelevant, racism is racism.

&t=329s

goofyfoot Sunday, 6 Aug 2023 at 5:12pm

Bud1 has gotta be herc
I’d almost bet my swellnet membership on it

andy-mac Sunday, 6 Aug 2023 at 5:14pm

basesix wrote:
hahaha. double minority, a woman and a redhead. shiiiiiit............. : )

Gold ey....

GuySmiley Sunday, 6 Aug 2023 at 5:15pm

Unable or unwilling to answer that direct question?

Let’s try again.

Do you support the notion of assimilation? Do you support the discrediting of land rights claims? If not why did you support a person who sits on board that exists to promote those extreme positions by promoting his videos and views?

Supafreak Sunday, 6 Aug 2023 at 5:21pm

Let’s be honest about the LNP no to the voice . If they can get Australia onside and defeat the voice to parliament then they believe they have a chance at the next election .

John Paul Janke says Peter Dutton’s decision to reject his invitation to #Garma2023 is an “insult” to Indigenous leaders. Janke confirms the invitation to Dutton & Jacinta Price was “from the Yothu Yindi foundation, not by Albanese” & condemns the “missed opportunity” #insiders pic.twitter.com/BrSv5oYOZg
— stranger (@strangerous10) August 5, 2023

Bud1 Sunday, 6 Aug 2023 at 5:25pm

What is archeology and anthropology? Pretty easy to find out. Here’s a standard description.

‘The archaeologist is first a descriptive worker: he has to describe, classify, and analyze the artifacts he studies. An adequate and objective taxonomy is the basis of all archaeology, and many good archaeologists spend their lives in this activity of description and classification. But the main aim of the archaeologist is to place the material remains in historical contexts, to supplement what may be known from written sources, and, thus, to increase understanding of the past. Ultimately, then, the archaeologist is a historian: his aim is the interpretive description of the past of man.

Increasingly, many scientific techniques are used by the archaeologist, and he uses the scientific expertise of many persons who are not archaeologists in his work. The artifacts he studies must often be studied in their environmental contexts, and botanists, zoologists, soil scientists, and geologists may be brought in to identify and describe plants, animals, soils, and rocks. Radioactive carbon dating, which has revolutionized much of archaeological chronology, is a by-product of research in atomic physics. But although archaeology uses extensively the methods, techniques, and results of the physical and biological sciences, it is not a natural science; some consider it a discipline that is half science and half humanity.’

They provide the forensics of history. The lines cameras.

‘Novak really won that game, his grandmother was sitting right at court side and she definitely saw it go in, in fact chalk dust landed on her. Plus, Novak’s coach saw Nadal acknowledge that it went in.’

‘Let’s have a look at the line camera.’

‘Clearly out, game set and match Nadal, who moves to number 1!’

‘So what, what does that prove, the camera is probably faulty, and Novak is clearly better. His grandmother saw it, and they say Nadal uses drugs any way.’

Earlier in this thread, we actually witnessed a like occurrance. I think its too late to edit it, so it should still be there.

Its common knowledge that Harold Thomas made the Indigenous Australian flag. The lines cameras fully support that, the whole story and timeline.
However an Anglo Australian man named Joseph Lane says he did, with his Indigenous wife. He also was compelled to undertake documenting his version of the truth about colonisation and its practises. His particular type of sources were in his mind beyond reproach, men and women of the cloth, Christians, grandmothers even, and government appointed protectors, who he asserts faithfully recorded everything in letters and reports. Diamonds in the rough if you like, shining like diamonds. Here’s some of the horrors they dealt with.

‘Health aspects were mentioned by Point McLeay missionary Rev George Taplin on 5/7/1864:

The practice of the natives in drying their dead is a very horrible one. Fancy a corpse over a slow fire in a state of putrefaction and the juices of the body gradually frying out and dropping into the fire below and making a horrible fetid smoke…I have no doubt that the practice is killing them, and will do so in increasing numbers, for every death causes disease. I have known horrible old men to catch the corruption dropping from a dead body in a pannican, and then besmear their bodies with it to make them strong. Fancy how they smell afterwards. I would fain visit the wurleys more, but am often kept outside by the horrid smell. There will be perhaps 15 or 20 dead bodies all more or less decayed in the wurley or hut, and the stench from them is indescribable.

How horrible it is too, to see a mother or father basting with oil and red ochre an infant’s corpse as it is squat up on a sort of bier or stage. And then the mourners will be daubed (that is, the women) with human ordure and consequently stink till you cannot approach them. I have known people to die through the stench of the dead and yet the poor souls keep on the practice. The young men and women would I believe fain to do away with it, and would be glad if the civil power compelled them to bury their dead. And then, most of their witchcraft depends on the practice.

Elsewhere a horrified Taplin notes breast-feeding mothers smearing their breasts with these body juices and then suckling their children.

[3] Hoplon Press, Adelaide. Available from Bookdepository.com $A29 paperback or $A44 hardback, post-free.‘

Ridiculous. Ok to worship and eat the flesh and drink the blood of a man who rose from the dead. Cremations, etc. All good.

So the very first claim of the earlier post is clearly false. Which udo pointed out. The rest of Lane’s long list of ‘truths’, showed how protective and good colonisation was, according to him, the opposite to what was commonly portrayed. One poster, i-d, ignoring the obvious fault, was suddenly very interested. They both knowingly or unknowlingly ignored the forensics. The lines camera. The actual truth.

‘Professor Ryan said new evidence, released today in Stage 4 of the project in partnership with The Guardian Australia, showed massacres intensified, particularly after 1860, a point in time when South Australia acquired the Northern Territory from NSW, Western Australia’s Kimberley region opened up and Queensland became a separate colony.

“More massacres happened in the period 1860 to 1930 than in the period 1788 to 1860,” Professor Ryan said.

“We find that the massacres are becoming better organised and there seems to be a more ruthless approach on the part of the perpetrators to the massacring of Aboriginal people.”’

https://www.newcastle.edu.au/newsroom/featured/new-evidence-reveals-abor...

‘The first national project to record mass killings on the Australian frontier has found that around half of all massacres of Aboriginal people were carried out by police and other government forces. Many others were perpetrated by settlers acting with tacit approval of the state.

The final findings of the eight-year long Colonial Frontier Massacres Digital Map Project show that conflict was widespread and most massacres were planned, in a deliberate attempt to eradicate Aboriginal people and Aboriginal resistance to the colonisation of the country.‘

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/mar/16/almost-half-the-m...

I mentioned diamonds. That brings ‘Guns, Germs and Steel’ to mind. Likewise along with the glaring faults and omissions. Highlighted comprehensively by lines cameras. Archaeology and anthropology. But what exquisite timing, move over Darwin, exonerated colonists across the globe could once more breathe a collective sigh of relief. And ‘Guns Germs and Steel’, once more sans humanness, was the new explanation of Indigenous peoples world wide. The errors and lack of humanness were glaring, big deal, just write another version.

Its enlightening watching genuinely, highly trained and experienced people in their element. Spending time with archaeologists and anthropologists of that ilk is amazing. The skills, the things that they see. Proper, fully present, deep studying and understanding, digesting the proven 50-60,000 years of Indigenous Australian Cultures, their religious, cultural and kinship structures and beliefs, and associated connections to land and environment takes immense effort and time. Dr Scott Cane came to his conclusions as a result. As did the large team of national and international experts in the videos I posted. The lines cameras. I hope that you listen to his interview and watch the videos. And say yes to ‘the voice’. Not just for Indigenous Australians, although that should be enough in my view, but for our country, that we should be nurturing, humanity and our children, and their children and so on. Following in the footsteps of Indigenous Australians.

https://www.caama.com.au/2021/08/23/is-this-the-most-significant-legacy-...

adam12 Sunday, 6 Aug 2023 at 5:52pm

The No vote is nothing but a ruse, the objective is to score a political defeat against the ALP in a futile attempt to put the LNP in a position to compete at the next election.
This fact has been laid bare by the LNP themselves and exposed willingly by notorious LNP booster fanboy Phil Coorey in the AFR yesterday:

"Politically, it doesn't matter.The coalition's aim is to defeat the Voice not because it opposes one per se, but because it wants to inflict a political loss on the prime minister.
Look at parliament this week, the Opposition asked question after question on the Voice, and then accused the Government of talking about the Voice and not the cost of living.
It is the government asking itself dorothy dixers on the cost of living, but it is the clashes over the Voice which make the news.
"We can't win the election unless we defeat the Voice solidly, ie we need to defeat it to get to the election starting line." texted one Coalition MP during Wednesday's exchanges between Albanese and Dutton"

This fact has been glaringly obvious from the outset of the debate, the cynical, racist right, still crying in their wheat bix about losing the last election, are prepared to scuttle the Voice and FNP and the Uluru Statement and perhaps the last great hope of reconciliation and closing the gap in this country in the vain hope of putting Dutton in some sort of winning electoral position. Pure, base, power politics.
Not only are they cunts, they are deluded cunts. Peter Dutton has no chance of ever becoming Australian PM, with or without a defeated Voice. He, his party and the dim wits like old mate Indo that spruik it up for them are part of a political death spiral that will need a miracle that will never eventuate to ever form majority government in this country again. Their support base is dying off, replaced by the new younger voting block that will never back them and Morrison has ensured the electorate will never trust them with the keys again. The noise they make is because our MSM is owned and run by people like them but that is all they have, noise, bluster and bullshit. The demography is shifting like sand under their feet, both major parties' support is in decline but for the LNP it is terminal, the majority of teal and independents are left leaning.
The polling is not worth a pinch of shit on the Voice, devised and run by the same dinosaurs who seek to control the MSM narrative, the same polling that was predicting close elections or LNP wins in the last Victorian and federal elections that resulted in blowout losses for the LNP. Push polling it's called.
It is a tactic employed to sway the ignorant and disengaged into believing in an alternate reality. The same tactics employed in the scare campaigns, 'the Voice is a land grab', 'the Voice will create an alternative government', 'the Voice will affect the Reserve Bank', 'the Voice will put race in the Constitution', 'the Voice will line the pockets of Aboriginal elites' and blah, blah, blah bullshit.
The right know that if they sow as much fear and division and confusion in the electorate they have a chance of defeating the referendum. They know there are enough ignorant and uninformed and disengaged electors that this type of negativity may work to frighten the horses into defeating the referendum. It may, the double majority required to get it up is a tough electoral ask. But if they think that is going to put themselves within a bull's roar of majority government under Duttons leadership they are as stupid as Susssan Ley looks and is.
The question that Indo and his ilk need to ask themselves is what actual difference, in fact, not in some weird theory or supposition, giving FNP an enshrined voice will make to them and their life or aspirations or future and the real answer is none. So I ask them , why be such cunts about it? Why not give these people, fellow Australians, many of whom are disadvantaged, what they have so kindly, so benignly, asked for?
If your answer is only that you don't want to see Labor achieve a 'win' then you only confirm the selfishness and cold heartedness and cynical cuntiness that has permeated the right and the LNP for decades and has left them in opposition across the mainland, and will continue to do so.
If Dutton ever wanted to be PM, the smartest move he could have made would have been to support Yes, go to Garma, embrace something positive and show the electorate he was capable of growth, and empathy and kindheartedness. But he is none of those things, he's not capable of any of them, so like Morrison, and perhaps the whole Liberal movement, his future is the dustbin of Australian politics, cartoon fodder, a representative of the worst in us, not the best, and never our leader.
I believe the Yes vote will win, despite the LNP, the fake polling, the fake narrative coming from our MSM and the fake advocacy fronting for the vested interests of the robber barons. We are fundamentally good people in this country, the country that values the 'fair go', that recognises and understands the fair go hasn't extended to our FNP and will not let this opportunity pass. Just watch.

velocityjohnno Sunday, 6 Aug 2023 at 6:04pm

Has this been discussed on the thread yet?

https://www.news.com.au/technology/environment/sustainability/handed-ove...

"Ten Victorian councils covering an area half the size of Tasmania have been blindsided by a settlement agreement that includes a list of proposals that would hand Indigenous groups sweeping powers to rename all roads, bridges and public spaces, co-manage waterways and biosecurity, as well as “preferential” access to council procurement contracts and jobs."

"“The land council has to be consulted on everything and you’ve got to pay for that consultation,” said Cr Meyer. “We don’t know [how much it will cost]. They might say it’s 20 bucks an hour, they might say it’s 1000 bucks an hour. We don’t know.”"

basesix Sunday, 6 Aug 2023 at 6:12pm

c*nts indeed, adam12, let them get indignant, display their entitlement, splay their fronds aggressively, and carry on, and preach an alternate reality. Fuck.. (pause here for *early*, haha, 80s punk interlude that tbb might smile to) ..them.
And a robberbutton is?

Supafreak Sunday, 6 Aug 2023 at 6:15pm

Well said Adam12 , spud is completely delusional and he’s not even real popular within his own party but he’s aloud to dream I guess . I’m not surprised Jacinta Price didn’t front up to Garma , who does she represent again ?

andy-mac Sunday, 6 Aug 2023 at 6:32pm

Good work @adam...
Geez should be a referendum and celebration of unity for the country with bipartisan support. Fark the Libs supporting it should be leaving the party and become an independent.
Have said here already though, for LNP it is not about the Voice, but in creating division and fear, they have nothing else to offer.... Hope most Australians see through it and vote accordingly.

AndyM Sunday, 6 Aug 2023 at 6:57pm

GuySmiley wrote:
Unable or unwilling to answer that direct question?

Let’s try again.

Do you support the notion of assimilation? Do you support the discrediting of land rights claims? If not why did you support a person who sits on board that exists to promote those extreme positions by promoting his videos and views?

Guy you and I both know that Indo’s been quite explicit with his views.
No work out in the isolated communities, send ‘em to the towns and cities and assimilate ‘em.
And the closer they are to their culture, the more violent they are - send ‘em to the towns and cities and assimilate ‘em.

GuySmiley Sunday, 6 Aug 2023 at 7:01pm

Supafreak wrote:
Well said Adam12 , spud is completely delusional and he’s not even real popular within his own party but he’s aloud to dream I guess . I’m not surprised Jacinta Price didn’t front up to Garma , who does she represent again ?

Murdoch and the IPA of course

https://m.

indo-dreaming Sunday, 6 Aug 2023 at 9:06pm

GuySmiley wrote:
Unable or unwilling to answer that direct question?

Let’s try again.

Do you support the notion of assimilation? Do you support the discrediting of land rights claims? If not why did you support a person who sits on board that exists to promote those extreme positions by promoting his videos and views?

Yeah like you answer my questions.

I think we have been through this before not that long ago but still happy to answer again and will do so this time in more detail.

Firstly no matter who you support in life be it an individual or group especially in politics its very rare to agree with everything they say or do or all policies etc. (sometimes it even picking the less of the few evils)

I dont like the word assimilation as has negative historical connotations, but many indigenous communities in remote areas are unsustainable and will always have the issues they have, the reality is there will never be the jobs or services needed in many cases people cant even own or buy land etc, they are often little socialist dystopias that are only able to survive because of government funding in all types of areas from housing to funds to live, take that funding away and they would instantly fail, hence why Tony Abbott wanted to close many of these communities because they are just not viable

But his scheme would have also caused issues, for instance forcing one mob into another mobs area in many case's is likely to result in conflict.

Anyway i dont support assimilation as in the historical context especially forced, but 100% would support programs that encourage indigenous people in remote communities or even areas with poor employment prospects to areas that have better employment prospects and services, so they can break the cycles many in these communities are stuck in, they are intergenerational problems and intergenerational poverty both that dont have an end point, and despite the fantasy's of the left there isn't no magic dust you can sprinkle over everything.

I also support multiculturalism so yeah I think its important that indigenous and non indigenous people mix and live in communities side by side and not in segregation.

But again lets be clear im not into anyone being forced only encouraged, for instance you could encourage people with life changing incentives like a proper guarantee of a job and perhaps something like a government run interest free housing loan scheme with a deposit given, so basically once they have a job they actually pay the house off and actually get ahead and break that cycle.

Just having a job and a home working towards something is a huge positive and creates so much self wort and just having these two things the negative social cultural issues/habits have a good chance of changing, because there become a point to things, when you have a job you are busy mind and body you are far less likely to abuse alcohol which as we know fuels domestic violence and just violence in communities

This positive change of culture and purpose also helps ensure parents send kids to school because there becomes a point to being educated because there is the chance of a job latter and a better life, couples also have more chance of staying together as dont have the money issues and lack of purpose and even rates of fatherless would drop (which is always a negative measure and high in indigenous communities) these are real solution's.

All that said im morally against any race based policy and believe in needs based but id still like to see this kind of thing attempted, there is ways you can get around this too as base it on other things like geography and income.

Honestly i don't know a lot about land right claims issue, all i know is that we are at about 50% of Australia that is under Indigenous management or ownership, but this in reality benefits indigenous people very little, land councils generally lock up land and private ownership is rare, because there is no traditional private land ownership rights. (like say Indonesia)

Own nothing and you will be happy, just doesn't work in practice, not in this day and age.

indo-dreaming Sunday, 6 Aug 2023 at 8:48pm

goofyfoot wrote:
Bud1 has gotta be herc
I’d almost bet my swellnet membership on it

Ha ha yep that last post confirmed it for me.

GuySmiley Sunday, 6 Aug 2023 at 9:02pm

Thanks for that @ info.

Supafreak Sunday, 6 Aug 2023 at 9:04pm

Editorial
The butterfly catcher ……………….Sometimes a story will function in two registers. The first is obvious. It is the meaning of words in isolation. It is the object and the subject and the verb that connects them.

The second register is more insidious. Occasionally it will be unknown even to the author of the piece. It is the register of secret meaning, where prejudice and placement and sheer number reveal the truth of why an item has run at all.

On Tuesday, on the front page of The Australian, a story ran under the headline “Dark Emu feud reignited”. Inside was a photograph of Marcia Langton and a piece claiming she was “misusing her extensive power”.

Further on in the same edition was a long and slighted article from the anthropologist Peter Sutton, detailing the ways in which he believes he was “dudded” by a documentary on Bruce Pascoe’s book Dark Emu.

“Worst of all the film depicts us as racists by association with right-wing shock jocks,” Sutton wrote of himself and archaeologist Keryn Walshe. “Marcia Langton associates us with the colonial anthropology of 100 years ago. The film was a set-up. A case of bad faith.”

In the very same piece, Sutton dismisses the film when it “goes bush” – like a 1920s pastoralist complaining about a Black station hand. He invokes “the great race war” – a phrase he might not be aware has specific meanings on the whiteward fringes of the internet. He complains his “mainly Celtic ancestry was a disability in the toxic wasteland of Australian race politics”.

Sutton goes on to denigrate Langton, an Associate Provost and Redmond Barry Distinguished Professor at the University of Melbourne. He sullies her work as activism. He describes her support of Pascoe’s resistant reading as “one of the most embarrassing gaffes of her academic career”.

With the paternalism of a butterfly catcher, he says she “turned on the community of scholars who have long both nurtured and learned from her”. He implies that she has forgotten “the courtesies of the community of scholars”.

The implication of this is quite obvious. Langton is being reminded of her place. She is being reminded who is meant to talk. She is being told who let her in and who could push her out. Camaraderie like this is a form of menace.

Sutton might not know it but his piece sits inside The Australian’s larger campaign against the Voice. It serves a function similar to the paper’s coverage of crime in Alice Springs. In words not its own, it whispers: don’t trust these people. Don’t trust them with the records of colonisation. Don’t trust them with an explorer’s journal. Don’t trust them with even a sliver of the constitution.

Langton is one of this country’s most significant public intellectuals. Her contribution to Australian thought is near unparalleled. She is the diligence of the referendum, the sure-handed chair of its co-design.

When the country’s last broadsheet attacks her, it is attacking her capacity to lead us into the future. It does so by refusing to accept a new reading of the past. It does so because somewhere deep down the idea of a well sunk before white settlement or of a pen built for animals upends too much of the terra nullius thinking that prevents people from seeing Indigenous Australians as truly equal. https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/2023/08/05/the-butterfly-catcher

indo-dreaming Sunday, 6 Aug 2023 at 9:34pm

Supafreak wrote:
Editorial
The butterfly catcher ……………….Sometimes a story will function in two registers. The first is obvious. It is the meaning of words in isolation. It is the object and the subject and the verb that connects them.

The second register is more insidious. Occasionally it will be unknown even to the author of the piece. It is the register of secret meaning, where prejudice and placement and sheer number reveal the truth of why an item has run at all.

On Tuesday, on the front page of The Australian, a story ran under the headline “Dark Emu feud reignited”. Inside was a photograph of Marcia Langton and a piece claiming she was “misusing her extensive power”.

Further on in the same edition was a long and slighted article from the anthropologist Peter Sutton, detailing the ways in which he believes he was “dudded” by a documentary on Bruce Pascoe’s book Dark Emu.

“Worst of all the film depicts us as racists by association with right-wing shock jocks,” Sutton wrote of himself and archaeologist Keryn Walshe. “Marcia Langton associates us with the colonial anthropology of 100 years ago. The film was a set-up. A case of bad faith.”

In the very same piece, Sutton dismisses the film when it “goes bush” – like a 1920s pastoralist complaining about a Black station hand. He invokes “the great race war” – a phrase he might not be aware has specific meanings on the whiteward fringes of the internet. He complains his “mainly Celtic ancestry was a disability in the toxic wasteland of Australian race politics”.

Sutton goes on to denigrate Langton, an Associate Provost and Redmond Barry Distinguished Professor at the University of Melbourne. He sullies her work as activism. He describes her support of Pascoe’s resistant reading as “one of the most embarrassing gaffes of her academic career”.

With the paternalism of a butterfly catcher, he says she “turned on the community of scholars who have long both nurtured and learned from her”. He implies that she has forgotten “the courtesies of the community of scholars”.

The implication of this is quite obvious. Langton is being reminded of her place. She is being reminded who is meant to talk. She is being told who let her in and who could push her out. Camaraderie like this is a form of menace.

Sutton might not know it but his piece sits inside The Australian’s larger campaign against the Voice. It serves a function similar to the paper’s coverage of crime in Alice Springs. In words not its own, it whispers: don’t trust these people. Don’t trust them with the records of colonisation. Don’t trust them with an explorer’s journal. Don’t trust them with even a sliver of the constitution.

Langton is one of this country’s most significant public intellectuals. Her contribution to Australian thought is near unparalleled. She is the diligence of the referendum, the sure-handed chair of its co-design.

When the country’s last broadsheet attacks her, it is attacking her capacity to lead us into the future. It does so by refusing to accept a new reading of the past. It does so because somewhere deep down the idea of a well sunk before white settlement or of a pen built for animals upends too much of the terra nullius thinking that prevents people from seeing Indigenous Australians as truly equal. https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/2023/08/05/the-butterfly-catcher

I posted that Australian article with Suttons views here in full the other day.

That above article is ridiculous

The timing of the Australian article only follows the timing of the Dark Emu docco.

It's very simple, if the docco came out last year or say after the referendum, so would the article.

I think we can assume Sutton approached the Australian unhappy with the edit and way he was portrayed, you can assume he wanted to ensure he could say what he wanted and not be edited or misportrayed again, obviously the ABC who ran the docco weren't going to do that neither would say the Guardian.

Marcia started as an activist, progressed to an academic and now has clearly swayed back to her activist roots, Sutton was just calling out the reality of things it was very clear in the docco, she was very unprofessional.

BTW. Speaking of Sutton, i came across a video that mentioned something he had said, so i googled it to try to find where he has said it, i could only find this link but, his observations clearly align with mine in this area:

"As Sutton argues, the remote communities with the worst problems are those that have been least and most recently touched by colonisation, and where people have continued to live closest to a traditional manner and on their traditional lands. In these communities, the persistence of traditional culture practices — such as hunt and gather-style hygiene and sanitation habits and permissively neglectful attitudes to parenting children — contribute significantly to poor health, child welfare, and other social outcomes."

https://www.cis.org.au/commentary/opinion/traditional-culture-at-odds-wi...

I wish i could find where he has talked about this in the original source though.

basesix Sunday, 6 Aug 2023 at 9:37pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
"As Sutton argues, the remote communities with the worst problems are those that have been least and most recently touched by colonisation, and where people have continued to live closest to a traditional manner and on their traditional lands. In these communities, the persistence of traditional culture practices — such as hunt and gather-style hygiene and sanitation habits and permissively neglectful attitudes to parenting children — contribute significantly to poor health, child welfare, and other social outcomes."

https://www.cis.org.au/commentary/opinion/traditional-culture-at-odds-wi...

I wish i could find where he has talked about this.

Why do you wish you could find where he talks about this? Seems an odd wish..

indo-dreaming Sunday, 6 Aug 2023 at 9:45pm

basesix wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
"As Sutton argues, the remote communities with the worst problems are those that have been least and most recently touched by colonisation, and where people have continued to live closest to a traditional manner and on their traditional lands. In these communities, the persistence of traditional culture practices — such as hunt and gather-style hygiene and sanitation habits and permissively neglectful attitudes to parenting children — contribute significantly to poor health, child welfare, and other social outcomes."

https://www.cis.org.au/commentary/opinion/traditional-culture-at-odds-wi...

I wish i could find where he has talked about this.

Why do you wish you could find where he talks about this? Seems an odd wish..

I observed similar things and copped a lot of flack for it here, and now i have one of the most highly respected people in the area of indigenous studies who has observed and said similar things.

Of course i want to know what he said in more depth.

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